Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: lyric1 on January 23, 2016, 11:38:32 PM
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While looking for information on the KI-67 & its gun turrets I found some information on the Betty I thought I would share.
It seems that the nose turret on the front & rear rotated in addition to the guns slewing motion.
The front has a gun that pivots on a ball in the actual turret as well a motor powered & hand cranked turret.
Here is a view that you would recognize as in the AHII turret.The gun is fixed in a mounting ring at the bottom of the turret.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/35-33ab61e4e6_zpsote8yvul.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/35-33ab61e4e6_zpsote8yvul.jpg.html)
Now with this wrecked Betty the mounting ring is all of a sudden at the top of the turret.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/48770215-acc9-4988-953a-a7d12023e709_zpsj0juhy4f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/48770215-acc9-4988-953a-a7d12023e709_zpsj0juhy4f.jpg.html)
Very obvious that the entire nose could turn to allow the gunner better arcs of defensive fire.
Here is a drawing I found online that I translated the parts about the turret turning.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/960cc5b2-e92a-46de-b9dc-c768702e63fa_zpsbdhojeax.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/960cc5b2-e92a-46de-b9dc-c768702e63fa_zpsbdhojeax.jpg.html)
窓手動旋回ハンドル = Window manually pivoting handle
窓旋回用モータ一 = Window turning motor one
Also the rear turned as well per this image.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/235-f27de90b93_zpsygb0gpyf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/235-f27de90b93_zpsygb0gpyf.jpg.html)
Have not found an image of the interior view of a Betty through the nose cone. I did find one though from a Mitsubishi Ki-21 it also had a similar rotating nose turret.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/gun%20nose_zps0xwx5l0w.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/gun%20nose_zps0xwx5l0w.jpg.html)
Would be a benefit to find the actual gun arcs for this plane as it such a vulnerable aircraft to begin with. Since the AHII Betty seems to lack the defensive gun motion that the real aircraft had it is even more susceptible in game.
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Also the rear turned as well per this image.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/235-f27de90b93_zpsygb0gpyf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/235-f27de90b93_zpsygb0gpyf.jpg.html)
Here is a view from the rear tail gun of the model #11.
You can tell it is a #11 by the slot at the top. The gun would raised into the slot for larger firing arcs when the turret needed to rotate 360 degrees.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/air_g4m_12_zpsmdio8udb.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/air_g4m_12_zpsmdio8udb.jpg.html)
In this video it shows a #22 model rear gun & you can get an idea how the mounting brackets of the gun would have worked on both models.
3min mark of video.
Couple of screen shots as well from the video.
http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/shogenarchives/jpnews/movie.cgi?das_id=D0001300572_00000&seg_number=002
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty8_zpszzeokvkt.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty8_zpszzeokvkt.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty7_zpshtmlooti.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty7_zpshtmlooti.jpg.html)
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A view from a Betty showing the nose cone & its rotation from the gunner pivoting it.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/NOSE20BETTY_zpsqo0monuq%20A_zpsxttzpmlq.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/NOSE20BETTY_zpsqo0monuq%20A_zpsxttzpmlq.jpg.html)
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Some info on the front gun from another book I have.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img227%20a_zpsi8luouq3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img227%20a_zpsi8luouq3.jpg.html)
射界角 = Field of fire angle
前方回転銃座 = Forward rotation turret
固定状態 = Fixed state
1.5 番胴体肋材 = Turn fuselage ribbing?
固定締付 帯 = With fixed clamping band?
射撃状態 = Shooting state
One thing is for certain the field of fire on the AHII front turret is not even close to the drawing above. I believe the actual gun pivots on the ball close to 360 deg like the HE-111 video shows.
Then factor in the turret could spin 360 degrees as well on the Betty.
There must be a switch or button for the gunner to rotate the turret electronically at present not sure where that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBhGp23NS_s
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The rear gun seems to differ quite a bit to what we have in game as well.
Watching the video for the -22 model Betty the mounting bracket for the gun seems to be identical to the -11 model.
http://cgi2.nhk.or.jp/shogenarchives/jpnews/movie.cgi?das_id=D0001300572_00000&seg_number=002
So at present our AHII rear gun pivots in the vertical on the horizontal mounting bar.
Also the mounting bar system in game is fixed hard to the aircraft wall.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/ahss329_zpsqrzrbzmm.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/ahss329_zpsqrzrbzmm.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/ahss330_zpszckjpoge.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/ahss330_zpszckjpoge.jpg.html)
This seems to be incorrect per drawings from the same book that I used in the previous post on the front turret as well as the video. The gun is fixed onto the horizontal mounting bar & it doesn't seem to pivot vertically on the mounting bar like it is modeled in AHII :headscratch: I could be wrong on this point hard to tell in the video for sure. The entire mounting bar system & seat all move as one part & its controlled by the gunner with his feet pushing back & forth on the foot rest. There is an attachment to the seat that travels under the floor of the aircraft that may have it under stress like a rubber band or a belt & pulley system to act as a counter weight that is shown with the green arrows as well as the foot rest. The red arrows show the seat/gun bracket/gun pivot point.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img228%20b_zpsfdzvthem.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img228%20b_zpsfdzvthem.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty7_zpshtmlooti.jpgoriginal%20a_zpspfiwejyd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty7_zpshtmlooti.jpgoriginal%20a_zpspfiwejyd.jpg.html)
Sadly the video doesn't show an actual slew from left to right of the gun. However there must be a pivot point on that horizontal mounting bar to allow this to happen. I tried to translate the above drawing I struggled to get most of it correct. The best I came up with is whatever is acting as a counter weight/spring that is attached to the seat seems to be made of rubber.
Also have a drawing of the rear -11 model turret its on a bearing race & shows the large slot that the gun could move into. Plus there is small handles for a manual rotation of the turret by the gunner.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/beety%20rear%20a_zpscp4t9no1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/beety%20rear%20a_zpscp4t9no1.jpg.html)
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Plus there is small handles for a manual rotation of the turret by the gunner.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/beety%20rear%20a_zpscp4t9no1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/beety%20rear%20a_zpscp4t9no1.jpg.html)
Seen here in this photo at the top of the turret either side of the gun.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/BETTY%20REAR_zpskq8majpp.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/BETTY%20REAR_zpskq8majpp.jpg.html)
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Bought an English printed book on the Betty. It has a poster in it that contradicts the Japanese drawings I have posted before in this thread at least with the vertical movement of the rear gun.
The drawing below shows 55 degrees of slew in vertical & nothing shown in the horizontal slew. :headscratch: Have to wonder if they didn't show this was due to the fact the rear turret could be spun 360 degrees & with the turret slot of the -11 rear gun. Maybe it could fire a full circular motion at 55 degrees so long as the gun was in the slot?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img271_zpso1qftyte.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img271_zpso1qftyte.jpg.html)
Also the -11 had two variations of rear turrets the cone shaped version with the slot. Then a later variant where a portion of the glazing was removed & still kept the slot to help with improving the gunners ease of firing. You can see that above in the drawing as well as the images below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img272_zpswagkfx5k.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img272_zpswagkfx5k.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img275_zpsb3njm0um.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img275_zpsb3njm0um.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img273_zpshzvinnc5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img273_zpshzvinnc5.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img274_zpsu6gektil.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img274_zpsu6gektil.jpg.html)
If the rear guns on the Betty do get corrected the chopped version of glazing with the slot maybe the better option I think.
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The rear gun on the real Betty has puzzled me for a while in particular the horizontal bar the gun was mounted on.
Plus what is the handle looking thing below the bar?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/35ef6152-cd8d-4422-b693-34a8a3c5146a_zpsnlhbnqwh.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/35ef6152-cd8d-4422-b693-34a8a3c5146a_zpsnlhbnqwh.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/2cd7ebc1-0d21-43a7-b6d7-652f65101e3f_zpsmulh2vcf.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/2cd7ebc1-0d21-43a7-b6d7-652f65101e3f_zpsmulh2vcf.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/f71e554f-9401-431b-abf7-9f7ed53d1e5e_zpsovod0djm.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/f71e554f-9401-431b-abf7-9f7ed53d1e5e_zpsovod0djm.jpg.html)
The handle had to serve some purpose but what. :headscratch:
As a machinist by trade to me the horizontal bar looked like slides of the beds of machines I have used. I suspected that the handle looking thing below the horizontal bar is just that a hinged handle & locking mechanism,when the rear gunner needed to slide the gun from left to right he pulled back on the handle that unlocked it from the bar. Then he could pull it either direction while the handle was deployed.
The Japanese drawing I posted before sort of hints that the gun slid from side to side. However not a lot of detail explaining if this was so.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/f0f02d17-09e0-483b-8c0f-165e3e5841f0_zpsjmyiyvct.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/f0f02d17-09e0-483b-8c0f-165e3e5841f0_zpsjmyiyvct.jpg.html)
I have been looking for a while for some photos showing the gun mounting block either side of the center line of the aircraft to verify if the gun did slide on this bar.
Tonight I did find such images. :banana:
They are from a wrecked -11 late version with the modified rear turret.
Rear view looking out.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt12_zpsfee50lub.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt12_zpsfee50lub.jpg.html)
Looking in.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt06_zpsaoccvqvt.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt06_zpsaoccvqvt.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt05_zpsrqzrpun2.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt05_zpsrqzrpun2.jpg.html)
As you can see pushed all the way over to one side is the mounting block of the gun. I believe you can also see the pivot pin the gun would have been used to slew left to right on the top of the block.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/31dea33d-892a-4baa-ad5b-63fd02142c6a_zpsuxvfbno3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/31dea33d-892a-4baa-ad5b-63fd02142c6a_zpsuxvfbno3.jpg.html)
Also you can see the remains of the barrel as well as one of the handles the gunner would have used to spin the turret.
The mounting holes the other handles would have been in are also visible.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/6b8494ce-0165-4c2e-a7ff-45749e3ad939_zpshh2g1ujr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/6b8494ce-0165-4c2e-a7ff-45749e3ad939_zpshh2g1ujr.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/f63d5a54-f398-4565-9fce-4af66421ecfe_zpsycx5ihvb.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/f63d5a54-f398-4565-9fce-4af66421ecfe_zpsycx5ihvb.jpg.html)
http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/Yap/site4betty.htm
One thing is for certain Japanese turrets from this era where difficult to use compared to allied versions.
The rear gunner had to use his feet to get the vertical slew,he also had to turn the turret by hand to get the full arc of the gun if needed by placing the gun in the slot. Then also had to unlock the gun from the mounting bar to get his full range of motion on the horizontal slew then pivot the gun on the mounting block as well.
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The gun is fixed onto the horizontal mounting bar & it doesn't seem to pivot vertically on the mounting bar like it is modeled in AHII :headscratch: I could be wrong on this point hard to tell in the video for sure.
I can say with certainty now that the horizontal bar that the rear gun slides on is fixed solid & there is no rotation at all of it. I found some images of Yamamoto's Betty as well as some other wrecks that show some detail of the mounting cradle.
In this picture you can see that the round portion of the Aluminium looking bracket to the right is pinned into position with some sort of domed dowel pins.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/rear%20betty%202_zpsv2s4tmjl.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/rear%20betty%202_zpsv2s4tmjl.jpg.html)
Another view showing the rolled steel tubing frame of the gunners cradle. There is another part welded on the end of the tube & that is what Aluminium part is pinned to. When you look inside the Aluminium block or the gun mounting block as I call it. You can see the locking pins that grabbed the bar & slid on the horizontal bar after the locking handle is released .
The handle is not visible on this wreck.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/betty%20rear%203_zpsfcgwm6mu.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/betty%20rear%203_zpsfcgwm6mu.jpg.html)
Another angle.
Here you can see the mating part to the round pinned bracket & its clearly all one part on the horizontal bar with the square flange on each end & then is all bolted together.
So it didn't rotate as we have in game now.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/rear%20betty%201_zpsmgehrhat.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/rear%20betty%201_zpsmgehrhat.jpg.html)
This is the 20 mm cannon that was used on the rear.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/Japanese_20mm_Type_99_gun__Mk1f11_zpsmwgu1qzn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/Japanese_20mm_Type_99_gun__Mk1f11_zpsmwgu1qzn.jpg.html)
If you look just above the pivot pin there is cone shaped part that has a good matching radius to the photo I posted before showing the pivot pin in the gun mounting block from a different wreck where the cannon had rusted away.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/a78e5fff-e281-4d86-aa36-c2e59804e859_zpsnaicbtr1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/a78e5fff-e281-4d86-aa36-c2e59804e859_zpsnaicbtr1.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/8412e4b5-f697-4bec-a6ea-8b1ce9178fb7_zpse6allrld.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/8412e4b5-f697-4bec-a6ea-8b1ce9178fb7_zpse6allrld.jpg.html)
Proof at least the cannon did pivot on the mounting block I think. :aok
Same wreck different time frame.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/yamamoto1_zpsp0ayebln.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/yamamoto1_zpsp0ayebln.jpg.html)
In these two you can see the gunners seat.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/post-787-1419683266015_zpsagvjensy.jpeg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/post-787-1419683266015_zpsagvjensy.jpeg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/18lvwpgfosehwjpg_zpsdq0w6dz1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/18lvwpgfosehwjpg_zpsdq0w6dz1.jpg.html)
Great view of the brackets & mounting methods used for the gunners cradle.
The seat portion is missing on this wreck.
Also quite a few handle pins for spinning the turret visible in this image.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/1yama1_zpssemnytsx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/1yama1_zpssemnytsx.jpg.html)
Video of the Yamamoto wreck.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_Io28IO3w
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to Lyric1
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfExeE2UUAE3Yow.jpg:large)
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to Lyric1
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CfExeE2UUAE3Yow.jpg:large)
Thank you Blade for the translation. :aok
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/CfExeE2UUAE3Yow.jpg%20large_zpsvr0ncjp8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/CfExeE2UUAE3Yow.jpg%20large_zpsvr0ncjp8.jpg.html)
The image is the best I have found for the rear gun cradle. Its not 100 % accurate there is some cross member parts missing. It definitively contradicts the previous drawings showing a pulley system attached to the seat. The turret in the image above & below is for the -22 AHII turret is a -11.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty7_zpshtmlooti.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty7_zpshtmlooti.jpg.html)
You can see the spring attachments & brackets in these photos.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/1yama1_zpssemnytsx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/1yama1_zpssemnytsx.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt12_zpsfee50lub.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/bettyt12_zpsfee50lub.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/spring_zpsit3cyf5f.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/spring_zpsit3cyf5f.jpg.html)
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Some nice photos of the nose turret of the only restoration of a Betty in the world.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/beety%20nose%20c_zpsm0irekzy.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/beety%20nose%20c_zpsm0irekzy.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/betty_zpsrkntzt43.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/betty_zpsrkntzt43.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/fc2blog_20130825002607919_zpsmsnqpody.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/fc2blog_20130825002607919_zpsmsnqpody.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/betty%20nose_zpslqt37ppa.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/betty%20nose_zpslqt37ppa.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/fc2blog_20130825002349c87_zpstfrbefsk.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/fc2blog_20130825002349c87_zpstfrbefsk.jpg.html)
Also found a couple of images of a wrecked Betty's -11's modified late version rear turret. It is the first images I have found where the slot is not set at vertical proof that it did rotate.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/o0563042111916754117_zpsfgzdogk8.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/o0563042111916754117_zpsfgzdogk8.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/o0565042511916725103%201_zpsu355thzr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/o0565042511916725103%201_zpsu355thzr.jpg.html)
Also a drawing of the different types of rear turrets used on the Betty over its life time.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/G4Mtail.jpgoriginal%20a_zpses9z7e3h.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/G4Mtail.jpgoriginal%20a_zpses9z7e3h.jpg.html)
This drawing is not from Betty it is though the correct nose gun & ball mount used.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/4d4458357de61c7a_zpsycogs4ev.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/4d4458357de61c7a_zpsycogs4ev.jpg.html)
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Bought some Japanese magazines on the Betty found an interesting image in one of them.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img287_zps9gp0rlqj.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img287_zps9gp0rlqj.jpg.html)
Rather strange the handle for locking the gun in place on the horizontal bar was operated by foot?
Also the image that Blade translated was of poor quality & some of the Japanese text was not legible. The magazine I bought also has it so I translated the text & it's a foot lever.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img281%20a_zpsj6gjdlbt.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img281%20a_zpsj6gjdlbt.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/step%20stick_zpszyaie71n.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/step%20stick_zpszyaie71n.jpg.html)
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Gonna have to ask - have we modeled the rear gun on the Betty properly then?
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Gonna have to ask - have we modeled the rear gun on the Betty properly then?
Simply put no.
Finding information is difficult most of the info that is most likely correct is in Japanese. So the language & translation of info is tough. Plus the -11 model had two variations of the rear turret. The rear gunners cradle operated the same for the most part from what I can tell. The front & rear turrets rotated AHII turrets on the Betty do not. This was what motivated me because defensive gunning in these aircraft was hard & just seemed wrong.
Plus there is a number of publications that in the very same book contradict themselves from one page to the very next. For example gun firing arcs of the rear gun.
This image shows on the horizontal slew of 35 degrees.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img284_zps7p313jll.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img284_zps7p313jll.jpg.html)
Then a few pages away another image showing 40 degrees.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img291_zps8r3viqe4.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img291_zps8r3viqe4.jpg.html)
This is the problem what to choose? Hitech creations chose what information they had on hand I would guess.
The issue I think is that a number of the publications did not know the rear turret we have in game is a late version modified -11 turret & it rotated like the early version -11 turret a total of 360 degrees.
What is incorrect with the AHII rear turret is we don't have the double gap designed where the gun barrel would have moved into them then moved with the rotation to give a larger firing arc when rotated 360 degrees.
This image shows clearly in the drawing as well as a photo that the front gun turret was rotated.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img283_zps8gnqy3xr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img283_zps8gnqy3xr.jpg.html)
Then when you look at the drawing below for the movement of the front machine gun it shows the range of motion in degrees & the drawing has more motion than what we have in AHII right now. But no mention of the turret spinning 360 degrees.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img285_zpsbhzbw0ry.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img285_zpsbhzbw0ry.jpg.html)
Even the above image contradicts another Japanese drawing I posted before of the degrees of motion.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img227%20a_zpsi8luouq3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img227%20a_zpsi8luouq3.jpg.html)
Anyways just a hint of the problems the creators of the game had trying to figure all this out. Newer books are out & the information is changing as well as more is known. Still working on the new magazines I bought there is some new photos in them I have not seen before that I am figuring out.
So stay tuned. :aok
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Lyric you can clearly make out the gear teeth in these two images. Amazing research you have accomplished here.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/betty%20nose_zpslqt37ppa.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/fc2blog_20130825002349c87_zpstfrbefsk.jpg)
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Lyric you can clearly make out the gear teeth in these two images. Amazing research you have accomplished here.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/betty%20nose_zpslqt37ppa.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/fc2blog_20130825002349c87_zpstfrbefsk.jpg)
Thank you. :aok
Not sure if the Japanese restoration of this Betty is to get an operational aircraft or a static display. They seem to be working to get it as close to correct as possible though.
https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E4%B8%80%E5%BC%8F%E9%99%B8%E4%B8%8A%E6%94%BB%E6%92%83%E6%A9%9F%E6%B2%B3%E5%8F%A3%E6%B9%96%E8%87%AA%E5%8B%95%E8%BB%8A%E5%8D%9A%E7%89%A9%E9%A4%A8&biw=1097&bih=623&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZk-_y8IHMAhWJ6SYKHVWfAc8Q_AUIBigB#imgrc=_
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Drawing showing front turret & it's gun at 12 o'clock.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/9499bbaf-8842-4205-90fc-7a4772067a53_zpsc5rypupr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/9499bbaf-8842-4205-90fc-7a4772067a53_zpsc5rypupr.jpg.html)
Photo of the front turret gun at about 2 o'clock.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img296_zpsqte8apot.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img296_zpsqte8apot.jpg.html)
Best image I have found of the rear -11 late modified turret from WWII.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img289_zpswi6rgm86.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img289_zpswi6rgm86.jpg.html)
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Little off topic.
Wonder if HTC can model this in?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img295_zpshwgmwfqu.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img295_zpshwgmwfqu.jpg.html)
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:rofl
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Translated a few more things that could not be read before.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/g%20supp_zpstcewvvfs.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/g%20supp_zpstcewvvfs.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/gun%20support_zpsoxrtxsyl.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/gun%20support_zpsoxrtxsyl.jpg.html)
For some reason Google translate wont complete this one?
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/support_zpsgofhfgre.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/support_zpsgofhfgre.jpg.html)
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Looking at this image for a bit & noticed the drawing shows a vertical pivot point on the adjustable gun mounting block.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/dd89dde7-e4c8-43bd-942b-18106c3846c0_zpscb6ozpt6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/dd89dde7-e4c8-43bd-942b-18106c3846c0_zpscb6ozpt6.jpg.html)
This seemed strange. :headscratch:
So did some digging to see if the drawing is correct because it would change the entire vertical slew of the gun if it is.
Here is a few pictures of the Type 99 Mk-1 20mm cannon. There is two basic types of this gun fixed & flexible. What we have in the Betty is of course flexible.
Below is the fixed type used in the Zero for example. The tabs on the underside of the gun I believe is one of the mounting points.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/IMGP7587_zpsgjbkbhqr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/IMGP7587_zpsgjbkbhqr.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/DSC03014_zps0r4t1iwb.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/DSC03014_zps0r4t1iwb.jpg.html)
Here is the flexible.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/Japanese_20mm_Type_99_gun__Mk1f11_zpsmwgu1qzn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/Japanese_20mm_Type_99_gun__Mk1f11_zpsmwgu1qzn.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/20mm-aircraft-cannon-type99_zpszdh81hj9.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/20mm-aircraft-cannon-type99_zpszdh81hj9.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/table6_zpsofmh8jz6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/table6_zpsofmh8jz6.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/table3_zpsucygo8ot.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/table3_zpsucygo8ot.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/tablef_zpsszrn7ukg.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/tablef_zpsszrn7ukg.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/table8_zps8kafe35h.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/table8_zps8kafe35h.jpg.html)
Based off the above photos it looks like the bracket that attaches the gun sight also has the pivot point attachment as well.
Without question the drawing is wrong there is no vertical slew with this arrangement. An added bonus of pushing the pivot point forward it creates more space between the ammo drum & the horizontal gun mounting bar. This will allow more horizontal slewing of the gun to give a larger firing arc because I believe the ammo drum is the limiting factor of that left to right motion.
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This is what we have in game now with the rear gun of the Betty.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/12988111_1729524213998869_703796837_n_zpstaykio4n.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/12988111_1729524213998869_703796837_n_zpstaykio4n.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/12966413_1729524290665528_1504933122_n_zpsfalzpa3l.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/12966413_1729524290665528_1504933122_n_zpsfalzpa3l.jpg.html)
Approximately 30 degrees of slew either side of the aircraft center line.
Big thanks to Challange for the overlay images from my screenshots & other things in this thread he helped with :aok.
OK where to go now?
This image below I think has all the answers I have been talking about in this thread.
Its a grainy washed out photo. That aside it still shows some interesting points about the rear turret of the Betty.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/14d2d579-b5fd-4ce0-8acd-d67669509477_zpsorbftwti.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/14d2d579-b5fd-4ce0-8acd-d67669509477_zpsorbftwti.jpg.html)
First off we have a -11 late modified rear turret similar to what is in game now. You can tell its the late version because the cone portion glazing of the early -11 turret is missing & there is a gap in in the turret at about 1 o'clock. There is a second gap at about 7 o'clock that is hidden by the gunner.
Proof positive from this image the turret did turn it's clearly visible with the gap being right of center as well as two handles being visible the gunner would grab to spin it. Also another fact that can be seen the gun has been slid to the right of the center line of the aircraft. By the looks of it can still slide some more to the right as well along the horizontal mounting bracket.
Since there is no inner turret ring at the 1 o'clock position the gun has been swung up into that space. Since the gun can still move right it can increase the firing arc as the turret rotates to 3 o'clock position.
What is the angle the gun is at now in the photo?
Since the gun pivot pin is not visible in this image & using the photos I have posted previously of the 20mm cannon I can get very close to where it would be.
I enlarged the photo & rotated the image to get the gun venting slots horizontal to establish my horizontal line & placed the line approximately center of the venting slots . Reason i did that was because the pivot pin would be at right angles to the slots. The vertical line is set off the approximate position of the pivot pin.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/65%20degrees_zpsjf5u6y7j.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/65%20degrees_zpsjf5u6y7j.jpg.html)
I don't have software for figuring angles on my PC so I just used one of these & placed it on my screen.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/613clfVDCZL._SX522__zpsu7ol0xvb.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/613clfVDCZL._SX522__zpsu7ol0xvb.jpg.html)
Using the bottom of the horizontal grab bar that was used by the gunner to get in & out of the gunners cradle. That is the part my yellow vertical line intersects with at the top of the image.
I get 65 degrees.
Can the gun pivot more than that to get a larger angle? I think this might be as about as much it could do because of the ammo drum hitting the horizontal gun mounting bar.
I think that is about it on the rear gun of the Betty right now that's all I have.
Let the debate begin. :D
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Nice view of a similar front machine gun turret like the Betty. Same gun used though in these two images like the Betty.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/13043359_1026536087383429_340605215073880795_n_zpswqiu7tgy.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/13043359_1026536087383429_340605215073880795_n_zpswqiu7tgy.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/type_92_-_lewis_zps4pd6wco7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/type_92_-_lewis_zps4pd6wco7.jpg.html)
Rear horizontal mounting bar with the gun mounting block & pivot pin clearly visible on this wreck.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/g4m1_r-ku_r-35x_zpscxmp5y5x.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/g4m1_r-ku_r-35x_zpscxmp5y5x.jpg.html)
Should start a new thread on the other guns on the Betty and those issues as well :headscratch:
Or just go with it in here :D
Similar set up on the side fuselage guns a release handle to slide the gun from side to side to maximize firing arcs.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/13435306_10154253207814494_7846317372542186865_n_zpshjkq6vod.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/13435306_10154253207814494_7846317372542186865_n_zpshjkq6vod.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/tumblr_nlkkr7JSBt1uoai9lo1_1280_zpsqbdwzpmd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/tumblr_nlkkr7JSBt1uoai9lo1_1280_zpsqbdwzpmd.jpg.html)
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Excellent pics you folks have posted, too. :aok
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Should start a new thread on the other guns on the Betty and those issues as well :headscratch:
Or just go with it in here :D
Similar set up on the side fuselage guns a release handle to slide the gun from side to side to maximize firing arcs.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/13435306_10154253207814494_7846317372542186865_n_zpshjkq6vod.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/13435306_10154253207814494_7846317372542186865_n_zpshjkq6vod.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/tumblr_nlkkr7JSBt1uoai9lo1_1280_zpsqbdwzpmd.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/tumblr_nlkkr7JSBt1uoai9lo1_1280_zpsqbdwzpmd.jpg.html)
Go with it in here. :aok
As I have pointed out in this thread that the AHII Betty forward & rear guns are not historically correct. Due to this fact they are woefully inhibited in terms of the firing arcs they could achieve. Therefore far easier meat on the table in AHII than what they were in real life.
The remaining guns are not correct either so lets look at the waist guns next.
First off a view from the left side gun & the total amount of forward movement it has. At present the AHII Betty has no ability to fire forward at all. At best it can get 90 degrees to the center line of the fuselage as can be seen in the image below.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/waist%20gun%20b_zpsndguu1ya.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/waist%20gun%20b_zpsndguu1ya.jpg.html)
All drawings I can find show that the waist gunners could actually fire forward of the aircraft.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img367_zpsctcko0h0.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img367_zpsctcko0h0.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img359_zpsvmunkifx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img359_zpsvmunkifx.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/40d5d21b-bdb4-44a7-9c21-93c2bc66cac9_zpso7ecdshu.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/40d5d21b-bdb4-44a7-9c21-93c2bc66cac9_zpso7ecdshu.jpg.html)
So how is that possible? The waist guns like the rear gun slides on a rail & can be unlocked by the gunner. The first images at the top of this post show the release handle to slide them back & forth. Our current set up in AHII has them fixed in one place. If we could slide them on the rail towards the rear of the plane it allows the gun to pivot forward now that the remaining turret blister is no longer in the way.
An image showing the gunner removing the side blister it rotates out of the way & then it would be hung nearby as can be seen in the photos below or just left on the floor.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img363_zpsflwng2vn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img363_zpsflwng2vn.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img366_zpseuxlmaq0.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img366_zpseuxlmaq0.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img360_zpsx9fvqfbw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img360_zpsx9fvqfbw.jpg.html)
Also the AHII waist guns dont seem to point down or up far enough compared to a drawing I have. The AHII screenshots shows the maximum vertical slew upwards & downwards.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/3123167a-9688-4ed3-ba5d-802a1644f98d_zpsshnwn3fe.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/3123167a-9688-4ed3-ba5d-802a1644f98d_zpsshnwn3fe.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/b52d113d-989d-49f1-9545-609d8fd05052_zpst4y9m0mo.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/b52d113d-989d-49f1-9545-609d8fd05052_zpst4y9m0mo.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img365_zpszlhivsma.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img365_zpszlhivsma.jpg.html)
At some point I am guessing they did away with the locking handle & made some king of switch arrangement that would make it easier to unlock the gun to move it based off of the above drawing.
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Another waist gunner view.
The gun support rod is prominent in this image.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img368_zpsic5nehay.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img368_zpsic5nehay.jpg.html)
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Another waist gunner image in this one the turret blister is still attached.
Also this gun has the wired switch instead of the release handle on the sliding rod.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/MG92_zpswajzkt21.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/MG92_zpswajzkt21.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/84248349-b4f5-4ecb-bc47-47d5822e4047_zpsusbpvwdv.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/84248349-b4f5-4ecb-bc47-47d5822e4047_zpsusbpvwdv.jpg.html)
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Dorsal gun drawings.
Just like the waist guns the turret blister can rotate open & closed. When it rotates downwards into the aircraft it stays in that position & doesn't detach like the waist gun blisters.
As you can see the gun is mounted on the center of a horizontal rail & has 70 degrees of vertical slew upwards. No angle in any drawings I have gives the angle of slew from left to right.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img369_zpsinf5swyu.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img369_zpsinf5swyu.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img362%20a_zps5scpjo1t.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img362%20a_zps5scpjo1t.jpg.html)
Views of the AHII Dorsal gun.
These two views show the center gun location on the bar & maximum left to right slew of the dorsal gun.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20c_zps0iyatg95.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20c_zps0iyatg95.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20d_zpsfgqne5y6.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20d_zpsfgqne5y6.jpg.html)
Over head view of AHII Dorsal gun maximum horizontal slew.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20a_zpseujbzebb.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20a_zpseujbzebb.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/b%20dorsal_zpsvayuxuyx.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/b%20dorsal_zpsvayuxuyx.jpg.html)
The above images give us a very close example of modeling of the AHII dorsal gun's horizontal slew compared to the drawings.
Is it right though?
Side views of the Dorsal gun with the F3 mode.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/a5f91b30-f15e-41f9-9d61-738ccd18ec88_zpsa3goytvg.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/a5f91b30-f15e-41f9-9d61-738ccd18ec88_zpsa3goytvg.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/6cc20341-fd15-4c2f-a356-9549c250962b_zpslfo0y5x7.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/6cc20341-fd15-4c2f-a356-9549c250962b_zpslfo0y5x7.jpg.html)
Depending on where I locate my pivot point on the dorsal gun I only get about 40-50 Degrees of vertical slew upwards?
Long way short of the 70 degrees in the drawings.
So why?
Well it looks like the position of the gun is set too far back into the aircraft.
Note the location of the ammo drum in these images.
Drawings.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/51835d27-9ae9-4b7d-bdfa-a3ffcb360de6_zpsbdwrb8fn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/51835d27-9ae9-4b7d-bdfa-a3ffcb360de6_zpsbdwrb8fn.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/ea4fae38-0a85-4aaf-8802-306aae1e1095_zpsnwn6p6u5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/ea4fae38-0a85-4aaf-8802-306aae1e1095_zpsnwn6p6u5.jpg.html)
AHII Screen shots.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/ab771f19-1599-4ea2-8439-a4a8e454f6d9_zpsfxxhzoqr.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/ab771f19-1599-4ea2-8439-a4a8e454f6d9_zpsfxxhzoqr.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/a2c5576c-7881-4e60-b449-e5e9c25f5db9_zps1iywpjt1.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/a2c5576c-7881-4e60-b449-e5e9c25f5db9_zps1iywpjt1.jpg.html)
As you can see in the above images the AHII ammo drum appears in the window on the forward part of the turret where in the drawings it's not.
So the horizontal mounting bar is not far enough towards the rear of the plane to allow the gun to pivot upwards to 70 degrees as it should.
Here is a view from inside of a Betty showing the center mount location of the dorsal gun.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty5_zpsxfzhzmqg.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/705KuBetty5_zpsxfzhzmqg.jpg.html)
Now here is a drawing showing the gun slid all the way across the horizontal mounting bar.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/img364_zpsm4xncrzw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/img364_zpsm4xncrzw.jpg.html)
Fair enough that drawing proves nothing. All I need is a photo showing that it can move.
I have that as well. :aok Its the same as every gun in the Betty except the forward turret. It uses a mounting bar that the gun can slide on & can be locked into the position the gunner needs.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/Untitled_zps0uq6hiyl.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/Untitled_zps0uq6hiyl.jpg.html)
Since this gun can also slide on the horizontal mounting bar. It looks like in the above image the gunner can get very close to 90 degrees of horizontal slew from left to right off of the center line of the aircraft.
Proving the old Japanese drawings I posted from the 1970's are wrong about this gun on a number of points. :aok
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Lyric1, the depth of your research is intriguing and almost frightening :devil
Since I'm limited to about 30kb/s internet speed where I'm currently at, another avenue of approach I'd like to suggest you might like to try is seeing if there are any good pictures of G4M wrecks in the Aleutian Islands of Alaska, or 'Aleutians'. A lot of equipment was left pretty well preserved on the islands of Attu and Kiska, and I believe some wreckages on other nearby islands might have been preserved and maybe even documented.
Just a thought, although it seems like you have more than enough sources to contend with :aok
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The restoration in Japan is ongoing, but they are only open to visitors for the month of August. Lyric1 + camera --> Tokyo is the best bet I think.
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Lyric1, the depth of your research is intriguing and almost frightening :devil
Since I'm limited to about 30kb/s internet speed where I'm currently at, another avenue of approach I'd like to suggest you might like to try is seeing if there are any good pictures of G4M wrecks in the Aleutian Islands of Alaska, or 'Aleutians'. A lot of equipment was left pretty well preserved on the islands of Attu and Kiska, and I believe some wreckages on other nearby islands might have been preserved and maybe even documented.
Just a thought, although it seems like you have more than enough sources to contend with :aok
The national archives is probably a good place to look. Never have been able to figure out the search engine with it. Always get swamped with a million things that have nothing to do with what I entered.
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The restoration in Japan is ongoing, but they are only open to visitors for the month of August. Lyric1 + camera --> Tokyo is the best bet I think.
I could do that. :banana:
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Looking at the artwork drawing & one of the dorsal gun photos some more. I think the gunner might even be able to get some downward firing patterns along the sides of the aircraft as well?
I have nothing to support this theory though. :headscratch:
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/a59a4c62-b4d6-4a33-aacb-d86f57adc6cf_zps7yfvuhmm.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/a59a4c62-b4d6-4a33-aacb-d86f57adc6cf_zps7yfvuhmm.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/f01739c8-96eb-4f44-bb96-437efe6e4e7b_zpsbgdyqyfn.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/f01739c8-96eb-4f44-bb96-437efe6e4e7b_zpsbgdyqyfn.jpg.html)
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by the looks of things, our guns on the Betty need a tweak. Care to make a Wishlist or bug report? Or perhaps even post it in the Open Beta forum?
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This isn't the only aircraft he's pointed out issues with. :)
With some, like the Ki-67, A-20(?) and Boston, hopefully they'll be remodeled properly. The G4M1 and He-111 on the other hand, I wouldn't hold my breath on considering that they are "new".
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by the looks of things, our guns on the Betty need a tweak. Care to make a Wishlist or bug report? Or perhaps even post it in the Open Beta forum?
I think by now someone from HTC has seen the thread. Until AHIII is done this topic will not be high on the list of things to do I think.
Even after AHIII is done its most likely going to sit for a while. The findings are sound to the best of my ability's I think.
If & when something is done they can come back to the thread & use it if they need to.
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This isn't the only aircraft he's pointed out issues with. :)
With some, like the Ki-67, A-20(?) and Boston, hopefully they'll be remodeled properly. The G4M1 and He-111 on the other hand, I wouldn't hold my breath on considering that they are "new".
Ki-67 is tough so few books & photos to work with even from Japan.
You have reminded me though the Smithsonian never did reply to my request for information on the captured Ki-67's. :headscratch: May have to resubmit that request four months is the typical turn around on that sort of thing.
Long since past that time frame.
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Yeah, might want to give em a call and e-mail. :)
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Video showing some internal views of the Betty & some new gun images also some Sally images.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqrCJmC-WA4
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20betty_zpsjrkcaylw.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20betty_zpsjrkcaylw.jpg.html)
Shell catch bag visible in this one.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20betty%20a_zpszexu4dt5.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/dorsal%20betty%20a_zpszexu4dt5.jpg.html)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/bett%20g2_zpstgsrsfz3.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/bett%20g2_zpstgsrsfz3.jpg.html)
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Betty wreck dive.
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/168890727
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Decent colourized image.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Betty%20Bombers/image_077_zpsmx11wtvo.jpg) (http://s1002.photobucket.com/user/barneybolac/media/Betty%20Bombers/image_077_zpsmx11wtvo.jpg.html)