Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: qbert55ca on February 12, 2016, 11:34:26 PM
-
When is 60 min, going to mean 60 min.
qbert CO FSO Duxford Squad RAF
-
What are you referring to?
-
According to official logs, both targets assigned to be hit by the Axis were hit at 22:41 and 22:52.....
So with 8 mins to spare both targets were hit...now if you are referring to the HE111 that hit both targets much later...I would say it was well planned and executed since many did land.
:salute
-
now if you are referring to the HE111 that hit both targets much later
How later? each side and all strike groups must be bombs away by T+60 minutes on the first sorties.
-
The target Duxford was defending was hit by 110's after the 60 min mark according to the CM time. I did take a video but the text messages do not show so I have no proof.
If the logs say 52min then the announcement of 45 minutes was way off because not only myself but several members of the squad timed it from there and they dropped at least 3 minutes late according to the CM time.
I use to really enjoy playing in the FSO but with everyone pushing the limits of the rules, it just isn't so anymore.
Q
-
IF, they dropped 3 minutes late, then they had to be inside the dar ring correct?
The base must have been flashing correct?
Surely you would have to agree the attack was well under way by T+60?
I'm not sure how the logs can show them making it within 60 minutes and the CM time remaining reminders could be that far off, usually they are pretty darn close.
:salute
-
The logs show the first hit at #45 ammo factory by 49th was 23:13:03, clearly more than 60 minutes into the frame. It was a great plan, pulling D high with 110's and fighters while 111's snuck in low but they were late.
Oh, and I noticed that Noser (me) shot down booger!
-
Oh....Oh... here come the lawyers.
-
How later? each side and all strike groups must be bombs away by T+60 minutes on the first sorties.
I always thought the rule was that each target had to be attacked by a squad sized force by T60. This doesn't mean that all squads assigned attack roles have to be bombs away by T60. Your version of the rule greatly limits any attack plan a cic can put into effect, to the point that there is no real need for the cic or attack squads to make an attack plan other than lift from this base, fly directly and predictably to target to barely make it before time runs out. Especially on setups like this month's where the flight distances are long and the bombers are slow on climb rate and top speed.
-
Let us take a deep breath here my friends and relax for just a bit. There are no reasons to threaten to quit or show any anger or frustration quite yet. Let's let the guys who run the FSO have a chance to look at what happened and make a determination. There are a bunch of things that could have happened, including a strike force not hitting the target on time. Remember that "attacking with a credible force" is really the same as "Attempting to attack with a credible force. If there was any engagement on the way inbound that delayed them, they did still attempt to attack on time. Sometimes entire attack squadrons are wiped out before they even hit the dar, drop no bombs, but have met the requirements with their attempt.
-
Oh....Oh... here come the lawyers.
I got yer lawyers riiiiiight here. The wording of the rule is that all targets must be struck by 60 minutes in but nothing about individual strike groups having to be there in that time frame. A closer look at the logs show 110's did take out some of #45 ammo before 60 minutes were up and I saw many high 110's at that time. So that means the party of the first part and the party of the second part are both right but the rules were bent, not broken. Interesting information for future planning. :devil
-
- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.
Gentlemen,
Please relax a moment. This issue is under investigation by the FSO CM staff. If penalties are assessed they will be revealed at the time that the frame scores are released following the third frame. Please begin your preparations for frame #2.
Thanks for your inputs. :aok
:salute
-
While you're at it, how about some effort at getting 50/50 sides? 97 allies vs 117 axis is pretty far off the mark.
-
While you're at it, how about some effort at getting 50/50 sides? 97 allies vs 117 axis is pretty far off the mark.
:ahand
-
While you're at it, how about some effort at getting 50/50 sides? 97 allies vs 117 axis is pretty far off the mark.
Unfortunately it is very difficult to have perfect side balance every frame. After side assignments are doled out, it is solely on the squads to meet their min or max numbers. Without seeing the squad side split, I would venture to say it could've been very easy for the split to swing the opposite way in any given frame.
-
While you're at it, how about some effort at getting 50/50 sides? 97 allies vs 117 axis is pretty far off the mark.
How about dialing back the attitude a little. The design calls for 50/50 split, but you can't make squads show up with the numbers they've committed to. Some players decide to not show up if they don't get their preferred ride, or their preferred side. Sometimes life gets in the way and players can't make it. You cannot hold the CM team responsible for player no-shows.
EDIT:
Squad assignment total commitment min/max...
Allied 97/137
Axis 99/138
-
Gentlemen,
Please relax a moment. This issue is under investigation by the FSO CM staff. If penalties are assessed they will be revealed at the time that the frame scores are released following the third frame. Please begin your preparations for frame #2.
Thanks for your inputs. :aok
:salute
swareiam;
To prepare for Frame #2, I could use some clarification of the rules:
Suppose an attack package consisted of one 11-15, one 7-10, and one 4-6 size squads. Just the two squads (11-15 and the 4-6) would constitute a "credible force" of a minimum of 12 players. If these two squads hit the target by T+60, could the remaining 7-10 hit the target after T+60?
Thanks.
:salute
-
:ahand
Thank you so very much for your meaningful contribution to the thread. No, I really mean it. Would I lie to you?
-
swareiam;
To prepare for Frame #2, I could use some clarification of the rules:
Suppose an attack package consisted of one 11-15, one 7-10, and one 4-6 size squads. Just the two squads (11-15 and the 4-6) would constitute a "credible force" of a minimum of 12 players. If these two squads hit the target by T+60, could the remaining 7-10 hit the target after T+60?
Thanks.
:salute
Yes
-
How about dialing back the attitude a little. The design calls for 50/50 split, but you can't make squads show up with the numbers they've committed to. Some players decide to not show up if they don't get their preferred ride, or their preferred side. Sometimes life gets in the way and players can't make it. You cannot hold the CM team responsible for player no-shows.
EDIT:
Squad assignment total commitment min/max...
Allied 97/137
Axis 99/138
Attitude? I ain't got no attitude. Just discussing the situation.
-
Attitude? I ain't got no attitude. Just discussing the situation.
This does not read like "discussing the situation":
While you're at it, how about some effort at getting 50/50 sides?
It sounds kind of argumentative and a bit snarky, making it sound like you're blaming the design on the numbers imbalance and that there was little effort put into it by the Admin.
-
All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.
And here is the problem for just one little word. While the spirit of the rule may imply that all ordnance carrying aircraft must attack by T+60, the exact verbiage indicates that a full squadron "initially" attacking complies with the rule.
Throughout the year, we have squadrons come and go. The new ones, if they are diligent, will review and follow the rules, but may act contrary to the original intent due to a different interpretation of the wording while obeying the orders of the CiC. It is possible that this is what happened in Frame 1. If you remove the word "initial" in this rule, then it becomes more definitive.
FWIW...I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.
-
CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60.
Gentlemen,
There is but one interpretation to follow here. Did your major attack hit before T+60?
We all understand the definition of what a creditable size force is and a single attack force per target. It is defined in the rules.
Again, did that force attack before T+60. If that specifically did not occur then there is a violation.
Please keep in mind that a violation of this type may not have enough value to sway a win to a loose or draw. Please consider whether you believe the score was close after the event had concluded.
If you are planning missions and executing them... If you are getting players in seats when the frame opens... If you are generally coming out to these events to just have a good time...
Then a T+60 rule violation really wouldn't matter. Too small, too insignificant to turn a judgement of victory.
Let's focus on frame #2. Objectives have been forwarded to frame 2 CICs and squad leaders.
Please check your inboxes.
-
We also need to see a relaxing of the absolute minimum amount of one type of aircraft flown presently set at 12. This often makes it very difficult to make a meaningful mission as we are trying to hit numbers of planes with numbers of squads that vary on a weekly basis and usually ends up with things like, although a brilliant idea and if they had actually dropped there bombs on time might have been a successful mission), but it's way out of the "spirit of the FSO" to be flying 110's dropping bombs at 28K+ while the base is being defended by P40's/
qbert CO FSO Duxford Wing RAF
-
I have all of the respect in the world for FSO, it rules, and the CM team that puts it on...I would like to state, before any penalties are assessed, that I did spell out in my orders the time frame that the HE111 would make their strike...and it was approved by a CM before I sent them out, I hid nothing.
:salute
-
The 111's are not the problem, the 110's at 28K is way out on a limb for a bombing mission. As a rule of thumb the FSO has always limited bombing attacks to certain altitudes but in last nights roles this was switched to only bombers with drones, so although legal, by the rules it ws really just a Texas http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/bolt.gif.
Secondly, and more importantly, CM had posted +60min while the group of 28K 110's were moving parallel to target leading us away giving the 111's time to sneak in. If they had not have dropped bombes I would not have had a problem with the 110's either. In this case I would have had a problem with the late 111's.
I'm not blaming anyone here, the CIC had to do something and came up with a plan that worked with what he had to plan with. If we are going to play in the spirit of game, then lets have the planes doing what they are supposed to be doing and not putting planes in ridicules roles just to meet the numbers game.
Q
-
Gentlemen,
There is but one interpretation to follow here. Did your major attack hit before T+60?
We all understand the definition of what a creditable size force is and a single attack force per target. It is defined in the rules.
There is not just one interpretation in this case, it all hinges on what the reader believes "initial" refers to. In a multifaceted attack, "initial" would come to mean merely the first wave of attackers, regardless of strength.
In fact, the use of "initial" implies a subsequent attack. Which, if referring to the complete strike occurring before T+60, then would actually be a fallacy if no effort to attack the target a second time is made after T+60. You cannot assume an attacking group will return to attack a target after rearming, there is often not enough time.
-
for the record, even with all the flying we did, JG54 dropped their last bomb at T+59!! so we're innocent and you cant prove a thing!! :neener:
"FSO is designed to distribute about half of the workload among the players in FSO by use of CiC's. These CiC's are responsible for specific orders for their side, plane usage by squads, making sure all targets are attacked by T+60, and vectoring squads to other targets during the event."
from the rules, "making sure all targets are attacked by T+60." it does not say "all squads must attack all targets by T+60"
:rofl :rofl gotta love the epic comedy show of twisted up people in a make believe war! Come on folks take a deep breathe, chalk it up to "we'll get em next time" and enjoy it for what it is! FUN!!!
<S> to everyone who flies FSO and a special <S> to the guys that run it.
While not perfect, it sure is a lot of fun!!
-
Just want to get this right since I'm the CIC this week. Based on what I'm reading here, I can have my "credible force" begin their attack before +60. Doesn't have to be the whole force so as long as I get 1 plane in there to drop an egg somewhere. Because that's exactly what some are arguing.
I beleive the intent of the rule is to have the attacks happen on or before T+60 so players aren't flying around for hours waiting on an attack. If you're intentionally planning for attack aircraft to arrive after that point I beleive you're violating the intent of that rule irregardless whether it's spelled out specifically or not.
But if we're going to agree that you can hold unengaged attack forces in reserve so long as the CIC attacks with what the they consider a "credible force" before T+60, I hope the Axis enjoy flying around in circles with nothing to shoot for an hour and forty minutes this week.
-
LilMak, I believe the intent of the rule is to have all bombs dropped by T+60. But unfortunately, the wording in the rules leaves the door open for discussion. But I'd say that based on what Swareiam said, what he expects is exactly this - all bombs dropped before T+60.
What I'd like to see in the future is a less vague definition of the T+60 rule, whether it be "all bombs dropped before T+60" or something that provides a bit more leeway for attacking groups, such as "all ordnance carrying aircraft must be within the dar ring of target by T+60".
-
Seems everybody in this thread overlooked the 25mph headwind Axis had to fly into. Here's an idea. Reverse the wind direction, Axis get to their targets way earlier, Axis gets to complain about Allies being late next week.
At that point we're all even and we can go back to normal grumbling.
-
Normally, I stay out of these 'discussions', but in this case ... I just can't.
Q, I led the 110s you are complaining about, and have the film if you'd like to see it {UPDATE--I sent it}. Simple fact is that your P40s and Spits were dogging and engaged us at the turn-in WELL west (About 6 mins prior to target) of the Target at T+54 (You even had us in a sandwhich). What we DIDN'T do is dump our Ordnance and engage you ... instead, we stayed within the rules and pressed ahead to, and attacked, the target as required. Further, whomever it was that was leading the defense took a portion of your force and dove them to the deck in what appeared to be a belief that the heavies MUST be low... {You personally dove from 26.7K down to 6K starting at roughly T+56 ... I presume assuming that there must be low bombers -- but that's just me guessing).
Since our inter-squad communications on the offense were basically non-existent (Not our escorts--they were perfect), we failed to link up with the HE-111s as we had intended.
As mentioned by someone else, the headwind made it virtually impossible to get to the target any quicker than we did (I cut 3 legs short to make it by the required T+60 as it was.
... NOW, I'm sorry that you failed to intercept us properly given the 75 mile heads-up on our location .... and I'm sorry that you weren't able to slaughter more of us ... but I am NOT sorry that we bother to understand the rules, physics and math!
(14) 110s x 2 bombs each ... is the full compliment that we were able to muster. We did, we attacked, and then we did our best to kill those of you that bothered to come up <S>. Those that didn't... Thank you--I doubt I'd have made it home otherwise.
Simply put, I didn't like the set up either...but I greatly appreciate the long hours of effort, thought and creativity that went into developing the scenario.
...
PS Leave the CMs alone ... it is a thankless function that they do for us. Instead of complaining... feel free to volunteer your time and make things better.
Stepping down from soap box now. :old:
Cheers,
- RODENT57
-
Nevermind
-
I never get involved. that should tell you something
Sir, I cannot prove, and therefore will not continue the time debate. All I know was you dropped more than 15min after the 45min announcement was made.
My big peeve is using the 110's at that altitude even though you were allowed to according to the rule but and I quote this from a CM, "that's not staying within the spirit of the FSO". It was a clever move but as I had not dressed down a few months back about taking initiative and not staying with the aforementioned quote I probably would have just been pissed and not really pissed for the double standards.
It's the changing of the standards of the bombers, If the main purpose of the plane is to bomb as in your case then they should have been restricted like all other bombers.
None of this is on you Rodent I'm more than happy to fly you wing any time you need Dux.<S>
qbert
-
If they are restricted like the bombers, they should also be able to fly wing with a lead bomber and drop at altitude when the lead bomber drops, similar to a P-38 with a droop snoot. No double standards, eh?
-
Qbert,
IF, the CM that set this month up is stating that the 110's broke the spirit of bomber the rule. He needs to tell me NOW!!
I set that mission up, and I set it up staying within all the rules of FSO, and the "special rules" the CM laid out for this month.
IF, the hit on the strat was WAY past T+60 as you stated, again I want to know about it NOW! This info also needs to come from a CM.
I don't think that is asking much at all really.
I do most of the planning for G3, I got orders from Cic, flew a few routes, and went with what I felt was going to give my squad the BEST chance for a successful mission, and survival. That is what we STRIVE for...... MISSION SUCCESS!!
Two planes in this setup, were from day 1 listed as FIGHTER-BOMBERS by the setup CM, the Bf110C and the A-20. Everyone should have known that, and assume that regardless of alt, the possibility of them carrying ords was there.
Any infraction of the time rules, should be made known here and now in my opinion. If rules were broken, everyone should be aware and NOT have to wait till scoring at the end of the month. It should always be that way!
No member of the community should have to be at this point asking questions about "what if" or "is this allowed" in this thread.
Spell it out now, eliminate any confusion....... Please and thank you.
You don't get pulled over for a speeding ticket and have a cop say, I'll mail ya the ticket and fine in a few weeks, till then have fun :O
At the moment as I see it, the CM's holding this info from the community is only going to add to more confusion. Lack of crystal clear clarification only hurts all of us.
Inform us, and we will understand.
Jdog
G3 Ops
-
LilMak, I believe the intent of the rule is to have all bombs dropped by T+60
That is correct.
Gents. If you roll a bomb carrying plane...be sure you drop on your target by T+60. That's it. You have an hour. You have an hour if the strike package is 4 planes and you have an hour if there are 3 strike packages of 16 planes each.
You have an hour.
-
This does not read like "discussing the situation":
It sounds kind of argumentative and a bit snarky, making it sound like you're blaming the design on the numbers imbalance and that there was little effort put into it by the Admin.
In this case "snarky" is in the eye of the beholder. I did not intend it that way. At any rate, sorry for giving that impression.
-
That is correct.
Gents. If you roll a bomb carrying plane...be sure you drop on your target by T+60. That's it. You have an hour. You have an hour if the strike package is 4 planes and you have an hour if there are 3 strike packages of 16 planes each.
You have an hour.
That's what I always understood. Glad we got to clear that up. I hope we don't have to spell it out in small words in the future.
-
I never get involved. that should tell you something
Sir, I cannot prove, and therefore will not continue the time debate. All I know was you dropped more than 15min after the 45min announcement was made.
My big peeve is using the 110's at that altitude even though you were allowed to according to the rule but and I quote this from a CM, "that's not staying within the spirit of the FSO". It was a clever move but as I had not dressed down a few months back about taking initiative and not staying with the aforementioned quote I probably would have just been pissed and not really pissed for the double standards.
It's the changing of the standards of the bombers, If the main purpose of the plane is to bomb as in your case then they should have been restricted like all other bombers.
None of this is on you Rodent I'm more than happy to fly you wing any time you need Dux.<S>
qbert
Q,
G3-MF will gladly fly with DUX on any mission :aok <S>.
NOT wanting to stir this up any more, but we were absolutely within the rules for attacking.
- Altitude for Twin engine level bombers "with formations set on" is 21K.
- 110s and A20s are considered fighter bombers (Not level bombers)
...and therefore have no altitude restrictions {If I could have, I'd have been at 40K ... but God's Breath shoves you down at 30K}
As you can see on the freeze frame of my cockpit at bomb release (sent via email) .. Mickey's Big hands were on the 7, and the 12 (T+60). Bombs detonated approximately 21 secs later. (Still prior to T+61) ...
and now over to New York for an instant replay official's interpretation...
:police:
We did our best to comply with the FSO rules as we ALWAYS do.
I'm done defending our honor.
Hope to see you ALL in the next frame! :airplane:
- Rodent57
-
if the rule is T+60 for all bombs, then id suggest dialing back the wind for bomber altitudes, so they have a fair chance of getting to target. its bad enough trying to hit a target and dodge pesky fighters without having to fight the wind too! keep the wind up for fighter altitudes, let the bombers sail free and clear. my 4 cents ( I already had something to say)
another thought. be careful what you wish for, not having enough time for alt, may encourage more NOE missions.
-
The designers are responsible for making sure that aircraft can actually carry out the missions. Point taken though and I agree that care has to be taken with settings like wind and so forth. :salute
-
That is correct.
Gents. If you roll a bomb carrying plane...be sure you drop on your target by T+60. That's it. You have an hour. You have an hour if the strike package is 4 planes and you have an hour if there are 3 strike packages of 16 planes each.
You have an hour.
That is not correct. Per the other thread running on the same topic.
-
The rule has been explained now. Thoroughly I would say.