Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Devil 505 on February 13, 2016, 11:36:13 PM
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Why is the Axis ace for frame 2 in a C.202 while the Allied Ace in in a P-51? The Pony has a 50 Mph speed advantage at all alts, in fact it's the best performing plane in the setup. The 202 is arguably the worst plane in the setup. It's slow, it has an anemic gun package, it has poor visibility. In any situation, the 202 pilot is at a disadvantage, whereas the Pony pilot has little to fear because of that plane's speed and excellent visibility. A Pony is likely to kill and survive and the 202 will have to work very hard to do either. The closest Allied plane to the C202 is the P-40F with the 4 gun package.
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The 109G2 is a pretty nice ride, I wouldn't turn my nose up at it.
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The 109G2 is a pretty nice ride, I wouldn't turn my nose up at it.
The axis ace doesn't get a G-2, he gets a Macchi C.202.
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C202 will fly circles around a P40F.
P40F was allied ace plane in frame 1 btw. Axis ace was in a C205. Didn't see anyone complain about that .
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I know where 120 points will come from in frame 1.... :aok
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C202 will fly circles around a P40F.
Right, and a pony won't fly circles around a 202? :rolleyes:
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P-51B has to carry two 500's. Half the mission it's heavy I would say that's more than even.
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I'll be shocked if those bombs actually get hauled that far.
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Not sure what u mean Devil? I hauled 2 bombs to target in frame 1 and didn't get into A2A mode until 40 or 50 mins into the frame. Same for the other 5 P51's that we're with me. It was a fun time trying to accomplish the task that was assigned to us.
The whole point of FSO is to enjoy yourself. Don't sweat the details. It is very rare to have things 100% fair.
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When it comes to potential scoring it better be as close to 100% fair as possible. This plane performance disparity is analogous to a basketball game where one team can shoot 3-pointers from the usual 3-point line but the other team can only score 3-pointers from halfcourt.
It all comes down to reward vs risk. The 6 ponies had a K/D tally in frame 1 of 5:3. (Deaths defined as not landing successfully) The 38 C.202's had a K/D tally of 22:19.
Now let's break this down into percentages.
Pony K/D: 1.66 , Macchi K/D: 1.16.
Kills per plane launched: Pony: .83, Macchi: .57
Since both types lost exactly 50% of their planes, let's assume the survival risk is equal and concentrate on the ability for each plane to kill.
the pony has K/D advantage of half a kill per death and kill per plane advantage of .25 over the C.202.
But that's just one instance. Lets extrapolate the relative differences from the ENY settings of the planes in LW and MW arenas.
ENY LW: P-51B: 20, C.202: 40.
ENY MW: P-51B: 15 C.202: 40.
According to HTC, it is twice as hard to get a kill in the C.202 than in the Pony. Against the MW planeset, which is where the planes in this setup are drawn from, the Pony fares even better.
Now lets look at some hard performance data. from: http://www.michael-elliott.com/wikis/ww2planes/index.php?n=Site.AccelerationChart
Acceleration time from 250 to 300
P-51B: 25 seconds
C.202: 42 seconds
Acceleration time from 300 to 350
P-51B: 76 Seconds 29 seconds @ 12K
C.202: Top speed on deck of 317 achieved in 76 seconds. @ 12K (minimum alt to break 350): 69 seconds
Does anybody else want to pretend these 2 planes compare well?
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Yo devil!
I see what your going at,duo your last post.
However the pony's should be compared with the c205's and not the c202's these planes are nothing alike.the pony and the c205 are closely matched(well they both got there own strengths).
The c202's should be compared with the p40's and the 109-g2's with the spit V. If you look at all the planes we have a pretty balanced fso on our hands.
You don't hear me say flying the c202 is a lot of fun. But me for example I manged to kill 4 p40's 1 pony and 1 b25( other ppl took the credit do(ripped 6 wing's of them)). In this setup it's very capeble if you fly it correctly.
I hope this clears things up.
(Sorry for the poor English)
DutchVII <S>
Edit: spelling
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He isn't comparing the two planes directly just for stats, he is comparing them on the basis of them being chosen as the Ace planes for the week. To summarize everything, it will be much easier for a P-51 pilot to accomplish the Ace role (get kills plenty of kills, don't be killed) than it would be for the C.202 pilot, due to the fact that the C.202 is a mid '41 plane and the P-51B is a late '43 plane (I think?). Like you said, if it were C.205 vs P-51B it would be a different story.
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Ah oke I am not sure what that's about than. Heard from my Co last night ( after the post) that the planes we are flying are not known yet. And even than I think all should have the change to fly decent planes. Not only the aces of the last frame cause they happend to be in better plane's
Sorry if I am missing something here.
DutchVII :salute
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Geeze Devil...... I realize this is a game but you need to man up and stop whining over every little detail.
In frame 1 your ace got to fly a 205 and logged 6 kills....he didn't even have to lug bombs around for 40 mins. The allied ace flew a P 40 and I will bet you he landed less than 6 kills if he landed at all.
Don't recall anyone on the allied side making a big deal about that.
Just wondering, does that seem fair to you?
I would also bet there are many players on the axis side that would love the challenge of flying the ace sortie in a 202, I know I would.
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Joker, I'm the Axis CiC for this frame. It's my job to sweat every detail.
I cant speak for the CiC's for frame 1. Either they thought that the 205-P40 matchup was ok, didn't notice it was a potential problem, or did notice and didn't care enough to say anything.
Well, we're on to frame 2 and I did notice a problem in the 202-P51 matchup. I also care enough to speak up.
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Devil, I was hoping that you would see that the intent of the ace's plane selection is the simple fact that each side has 3 different fighters in use and there are 3 frames. It is only logical that each frame 1 of the fighters available to each side represent an ace that participated in the actual aircraft. Simple to see the logic behind the choices even if we all agree there are differences in the capabilities of each different aircraft.
And as far as you being CIC, it is also my understanding that in that capacity you should be spending your time working up a reasonable plan for you side to execute within the guidelines set forth in the write up of the FSO. Your challenge that this or that is "not fair" is not working within those guidelines.
It's not enjoyable for me to continue to see you question the rules during the event. These changes you seek should be addressed before or after the event not during.
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It's not enjoyable for me to continue to see you question the rules during the event. These changes you seek should be addressed before or after the event not during.
The Ace mission is not a rule, it's a feature. And since the all of the individual frame pairings are not announced before the first frame, a complete discussion cannot be made before the first frame. And I'll be damned if I'm going to wait for a potential problem seen before the next frame to become a real problem during said frame to discuss it afterwards. This is a problem now and now is precisely the time to discuss it and solve it.
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Ok if that's the way you feel, I understand.
It really doesn't matter in the least what the outcome of this discussion is. The ace points are just a sideshow for those interested in score. Most who fly FSO do so for the enjoyment, not the score.
The satisfaction of participating in these FSO's is the personal knowledge that one helped accomplish their sides objectives given the constraints of the write up.
Hope you can resolve this to your satisfaction.
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The orders do not call for a discussion they clearly say axis ace fly's 202. Write your op and move on.
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What I'm looking for a reason for the disparity. Or does balance not mean what it used to in FSO?
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That's all your looking for....that's easy.
Frame 1 was a disparity favoring the axis, frame two is the opposite.
Those 2 frames balance out!
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That's all your looking for....that's easy.
Frame 1 was a disparity favoring the axis, frame two is the opposite.
Those 2 frames balance out!
It the frames weren't scored individually, I'd agree. But since points scored in a frame only apply to that frame, I don't.
If Swariam intendeds to use each fighter only once as the ace plane, then he botched the balance by not pairing the 202 with the P-40. The crux of the problem here, is that the Pony severely outcasses the entire axis planeset and really shouldn't have been included in the first place - much less being selected as plane for an ace mission.
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It's not a "matchup". Chances are they won't face each other directly, in fact the two aces might not even be on the same side of the map.
The idea is to be an ace, get kills and not be killed. You can do that in anything. Please get over it.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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It's not a "matchup". Chances are they won't face each other directly, in fact the two aces might not even be on the same side of the map.
The idea is to be an ace, get kills and not be killed. You can do that in anything. Please get over it.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
Considering that the 202 was the most numerous Axis plane in frame 1, and that is likely to be the case in frame 2, The likelihood that a P-51 will encounter a C.202 is essentially certain.
Therefore, the performance disparity between the two planes is very important. The ability of the Allied ace to score bonus points is far greater than the Axis ace.
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I'd say choose your ace pilot wisely then CiC. It's not the plane, it's the pilot.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Maybe let the Axis ace fly a P51 too, and let them both shot down C202s.
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I was curios about this discussion so I jumped in to read it. I was just peeking through the window until coming upon the part of this statement that tells me HOW I'm supposed to get satisfaction from a game that I pay to play in. Excuse me!!! I'll get my fun how I wish thank you and yes I do my best to play within the rules. I'd like to think you were not intending to convey that one should only get what you do from this game, but that is indeed how part of your statement reads. :confused:
until coming upon Ok if that's the way you feel, I understand.
It really doesn't matter in the least what the outcome of this discussion is. The ace points are just a sideshow for those interested in score. Most who fly FSO do so for the enjoyment, not the score.
The satisfaction of participating in these FSO's is the personal knowledge that one helped accomplish their sides objectives given the constraints of the write up.
Hope you can resolve this to your satisfaction.
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Hiya Pops,
I have no idea why you would get the impression I was telling you anything.
If that is all you came away with from that post then I suggest you try reading it again.
You should have understood that it meant that most of the players I know feel that way. Not all, not you, just most of the players I have spoken to.
Up until now I have never had any exchange of ideas with you but now I know you enjoy the points aspect of the game. My post is still accurate, the word most would just not include you.
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Hi Joker
The impression comes from your statement.
"The satisfaction of participating in these FSO's is the personal knowledge that one helped accomplish their sides objectives given the constraints of the write up."
The use of the word 'The' makes it a singular, definitive and exclusive statement. Perhaps had you started with, For some or For me or some other inclusive term your intended message would have been less open to interpretation on my part. That would have made it a supporting statement to the earlier one where you state 'most who fly FSO do so for the enjoyment, not the score' instead of a stand alone statement about how to enjoy the game.
You might have guessed 'words and their meanings' were important in my profession and I guess old habits die hard.
Just an fyi I do not care much about the points (my words failing to convey this) if I were about the points/kills/etc I'd have been long out of this game as I'm really not good at it (look at my stats). I truly enjoy playing with the group of guys I fly with. Two of the people in my squad are my grown sons, we live hundreds of miles apart. I get to connect and spend time with them regularly through this game, that makes the points, kills, bombs, whatever else very secondary.
If I knocked down some fences here I hope I have mended them with my explanation.
here's wishing you a clear 6. pops :aok
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Pops,
No knocked down fences at all. My sentence structure was vague and you asked me about it.
No harm, I appreciate it. Hopefully I have learned something.
In my discussion on this topic, I only wanted to voice my opinion, not necessarily change anyone's mind.
When I saw how much this meant to Devil my intention was to give my feeling on the matter and move on.
Guess my feelings were not conveyed correctly:)
Thanks for taking the time.
See you up. :salute
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The orders do not call for a discussion they clearly say axis ace fly's 202. Write your op and move on.
All criticism is not welcome I see. Myth busted. Is this the level of response we can expect from CMs in future when problems with setups arise?
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Awe Hell, give me my 190a8 and I'll fly the axis ace mission lol :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :devil All joking aside, I see what Devil is talking about!!! :salute :salute :salute
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Considering that the 202 was the most numerous Axis plane in frame 1, and that is likely to be the case in frame 2, The likelihood that a P-51 will encounter a C.202 is essentially certain.
Therefore, the performance disparity between the two planes is very important. The ability of the Allied ace to score bonus points is far greater than the Axis ace.
As my dad used to say, "Who said it had to be fair?" From what I've seen in the FSOs over the years, one side or the other winds up fighting uphill in some fashion.
I always looked at it as most of the fun comes from doing what you can with what you've got.
Wiley.
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Well C202 vs P-51 is way lopsided for potential points. Trying to figure this one out. :headscratch:
There should always be room for discussion here.
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All criticism is not welcome I see. Myth busted. Is this the level of response we can expect from CMs in future when problems with setups arise?
The same tired old line. Must be easy to just cut and paste eh?
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The same tired old line. Must be easy to just cut and paste eh?
When the point is still valid no need to make a new one.
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Parity is overrated. Fighting with advantage is fun; fighting with disadvantage is fun.
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This isn't about plane vs plane directly. It's about potential of points for one team being easier than for the other. That should always be as even as possible.
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Point made, pressing it is counter-productive.
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Please don't take this wrong. I do not intend to "stir" this any further.
The original question (or concern / complaint) should have been emailed directly to the CM staff for clarification and not argued here in the forums.
:police: Nothing else to see here, move along!!! :police: