General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
Title: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 06:52:22 PM
Many people have said that Martin Caidin made up the name "Fork-Tailed Devil" in his book "Fork-Tailed Devil: the P-38" and invented the story of it being originated by German pilots. Their reason usually is either that they personally have read no accounts from German pilots mentioning the phrase "Gabelschwanz Teufel" or that they've heard other people say it isn't true.
Yet it turns out, from Life Magazine, August 16, 1943, p. 51, in the article "P-38": https://books.google.com/books?id=RVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA51&dq=gabelschwanz%20teufel&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=gabelschwanz%20teufel&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=RVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA51&dq=gabelschwanz%20teufel&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=gabelschwanz%20teufel&f=false)
"Into that camp the military police brought a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'. An interpreter was called, and he had the translation quickly: 'the fork-tailed devil'. The German was talking about the P-38."
So, there you have it.
Caidin's use of "fork-tailed devil" is completely solid.
Aren't you just a bit skeptical about the honesty of that article...?
I don't think Caiden invented the name "fork tailed devil," that was probably beyond him. The Life magazine article - whoever wrote it - may well have been the origin. Same thing happened with planes like the Corsair ("whistling death") and the Beaufighter ("whispering death")...you're reliant on accounts written by the Allies.
But thanks for that link, what great advertisements! Shows how times have changed.
- oldman
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Squire on April 05, 2016, 08:37:13 PM
I think most origins like that are lost in time. They are impossible to verify and ultimately...I think its an interesting historical anecdote...and you can have fun with it but I really don't think it matters all that much.
Enjoy the nicknames and a "wink and a nod" as to how they came to pass...
I heard some German trooper being strafed in North Africa coined it. Then again...who knows?
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Zimme83 on April 05, 2016, 08:45:59 PM
I also have a bit hard to Believe that the Germans came up with the name. P-38 was not so superior to the German fighters that it would earn such reputation among German pilots that they would use a name like that. Fork tailed devil suggest that they thought that it was a intimidating foe but for IMO the combat records rather suggest that the germans thought that the P-38 was an inferior plane(initially at least).
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 09:10:22 PM
Aren't you just a bit skeptical about the honesty of that article...?
Yes, but only a little because it could also be true.
Either way, it shows that the term "fork-tailed devil" was in use for the P-38 shortly after its introduction into combat, and it shows that Caidin was completely appropriate in relating the name and the story of how it came about.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Delirium on April 05, 2016, 09:12:15 PM
I have to question the reliability of the source, as we will never really know the real origins of the label.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 09:44:59 PM
There are only three possibilities:
1. The 1943 article is telling the truth.
2. The author of the article was told this story in 1943, but the story of the German pilot is false.
3. The author of the article made it up in 1943
In all three cases, the name "fork-tailed devil" for the P-38 was in use (regardless of who originated the phrase) shortly after the plane's introduction into combat, and Caidin correctly related this information published in 1943 -- he didn't make it up for his P-38 book.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 09:51:26 PM
By the way, you guys use this same level of scrutiny on every WWII story you've ever read, right -- since most information given in personal accounts of WWII does not give 2nd-source backup?
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Devil 505 on April 05, 2016, 09:59:29 PM
Don't forget that even if the German pilot had said it, that it is entirely likely to have been taken out of context. He could have called it that only in reference to it's appearance and little to do with it's performance.
In my opinion, I highly doubt that any German ever called the P-38 "Fork-tailed Devil" in the manner that we're used to being told that they did. Either we made it up, or it was said in jest.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 10:15:25 PM
Don't forget that even if the German pilot had said it, that it is entirely likely to have been taken out of context. He could have called it that only in reference to it's appearance and little to do with it's performance.
The story doesn't say anything about performance. All it says is this and nothing else regarding the phrase "Gabelschwanz Teufel":
"Into that camp the military police brought a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'. An interpreter was called, and he had the translation quickly: 'the fork-tailed devil'. The German was talking about the P-38."
Folks can disbelieve it if they want, but there is no context that can be messed up or misinterpreted for this simple statement.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 05, 2016, 10:39:53 PM
Out of curiosity, if the story had been that the German pilot said, "Yeah, I got shot down by one of those double-tailed b*stards", would you disbelieve it unless there were 2nd sources or German biographies that call the P-38 "the Double-Tailed B*stard"?
Also, what would it take to believe the story?
If the story had said in it "I talked to Sgt. Bob Smith, who was in charge of holding a prisoner at Camp 32 near Tunisia. According to Sgt. Smith, at 4:32 pm on August 2nd, 1943, a German pilot approached the camp and surrendered. During interrogation . . .", and then related the same story, would you believe it then?
What if it said that and "I also checked with Camp 32's Intelligence Officer, Lt. Brad Jones, and he corroborated what Sgt. Smith said" would you believe it then?
Or would you only believe it if another author said "To check out the story related in Life's Aug. 16, 1943 issue, I also went and talked to Sgt. Smith and Lt. Jones, and they told me the same thing"?
Or would that be insufficient still because you didn't read a book by a German that said "We commonly called the P-38 'der gabelschwanz teufel'"?
What if Germans didn't commonly call it that (the Life article doesn't say that the Germans commonly called it that -- they say one guy came in who called it that)? Would you need personal accounts from that guy or his squadron mates in order to believe it?
If you need that level of proof, do you distrust the majority of first-hand accounts such as Samurai, by Sakai, The First and the Last, by Galland, Fighter Pilot, by Olds, With the Old Breed, by Sledge, and so on? (Note here that I am saying "majority" and not "all" since these books have some portions, which are small compared to the entire books, that are readily verified, just as there are many sections in Caidin's P-38 book that are readily verified.)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Zimme83 on April 05, 2016, 11:06:12 PM
Even if the story is true its still a German, not the Germans that called it the fork tailed devil. It does not support claims that the name was widespread among the Germans. As I said: its no reason for the Germans to give such a name to a plane they viewed as inferior to their own. A single pilot, downed by a P-38, might have said it in affect but its not quite the same thing as saying that it was a common name among the Germans.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Devil 505 on April 05, 2016, 11:12:51 PM
It's not about proof, Brooke. It's about perception vs. reality - or in this case what I consider likely reality.
There is how the phrase was used by U.S. propaganda and its implication of original use. I do not see a German using "Forked-tailed Devil" in the same manner as it became known to us. The plane's record vs the Luftwaffe in 1943 was not impressive enough to garner that kind of moniker by German Pilots. Regardless of if this German pilot or any other actually uttered that phrase, once it was published in Life it became a piece of the narrative about the P-38 indicating a level of intimidation by German pilots on facing that plane based on its performance.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 05, 2016, 11:13:40 PM
from Life Magazine, August 16, 1943, p. 51, in the article "P-38": a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'. "Into that camp the military police brought a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'. An interpreter was called, and he had the translation quickly: 'the fork-tailed devil'. The German was talking about the P-38."
you gotta be kidding with this obvious piece of bullsh*t war-time propaganda (e.g. "disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically" - Oh please, spare us :rofl). I repeat: I have yet to find any GERMAN (!!) Luftwaffe accounts - memoirs & biographies, unit histories, air battles & campaigns - ever using the term "Gabel-schwanz teuffel" as a reference to the P-38. So you may be correct in that Martin Caidin did not invent the term "Fork-Tailed Devil" - LIFE Magazine may have done so, along with "disheveled German fliers mumbling hysterically". I'm surprised that Caidin in his book "Thunderbolt" didn't claim that the Luftwaffe called the P-47 the "Grosse Schwanz Teuffel" (Big-tailed devil) :headscratch:
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: FLOOB on April 05, 2016, 11:28:50 PM
Remember in a lot of languages calling somebody a devil is derogatory, like calling someone a dirtbag.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 05, 2016, 11:36:50 PM
Remember in a lot of languages calling somebody a devil is derogatory, like calling someone a dirtbag.
I can more readily accept a downed German flier referring to any skilled & determined allied pilot that shot him down as a "teuffel" (i.e. a "devil" of an adversary, a back-handed compliment or as in "a hell of a fight") but not to a specific a/c type. Btw, do you know the allied plane that MOST IMPRESSED (and aggrevated) the Germans: the DeHaviland Mosquito!
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Devil 505 on April 05, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
To be fair, German pilots did not regard the P-38 as a joke either. There was a healthy respect for its capability.
From Johannes Steinhoff's "Messerschmitts Over Sicily"
"I had encountered the long-range P-38 Lightning during the last days of the North African campaign. Our opinion of the twin-boomed, twin-engined aircraft was divided. Our old Messerschmitts were still, perhaps, a little faster. But pilots that had fought them said that the Lightnings were capable of appreciably tighter turns and that they would be on your tail before you knew what was happening. The six machine guns mounted in the nose supposedly produced a concentration of fire from which there was no escape. Certainly the effect was reminiscent of a watering can when one of these apparitions started firing tracer, and it was essential to prevent them maneuvering into a position from which they could bring their guns to bear."
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 05, 2016, 11:59:47 PM
To be fair, German pilots did not regard the P-38 as a joke either. There was a healthy respect for its capability.
True enough. You had better always respect your opponent in the air -whether he's in a Spitfire, P-38, P-47, P-51, Yak or LaGG....
“A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war: wide-awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge or going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and and whoever makes it will live to regret his steps....When a man has fulfilled all four of these requisites—to be wide awake, to have fear, respect, and absolute assurance—there are no mistakes for which he will have to account; under such conditions his actions lose the blundering quality of the acts of a fool. If such a man fails, or suffers a defeat, he will have lost only a battle, and there will be no pitiful regrets over that....A warrior must be willing and ready to make his last stand here and now..."
~ Carlos Castaneda, from 'The Teachings of Don Juan: A Yaqui Way of Knowledge'
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bozon on April 06, 2016, 12:28:12 AM
The full translation of the German pilot interrogation has been recently discovered in the archives. It says: "Fork tail devils... the sky were full of them. They all augered on their attack run. I laughed so hard that I fell out of my plane and got captured. Those poor forktail devils... oh the humanity!"
So this nickname is genuine.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 01:35:42 AM
Even if the story is true its still a German, not the Germans that called it the fork tailed devil.
And how is that different than what the quotes actually say? You have a misperception from not reading what the quotes actually say (or reading into them conclusions that they certainly do not say or even imply).
Let's read these again.
From Life 1943, it says only this on the entire topic -- nothing more, nothing less:
"Into that camp the military police brought a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'. An interpreter was called, and he had the translation quickly: 'the fork-tailed devil'. The German was talking about the P-38."
From Caidin's "Fork-Tailed Devil", is says only this on the topic -- the phrases "fork-tailed devil" and "gabelschwanz teufel" are not mentioned anywhere else in the book:
"NORTH AFRICA WAS WHERE the P-38 earned its name— Der gabelschwanz teufel. The fork-tailed devil. It took a while, though."
Do you see anything about Germans overall or in great numbers or even commonly calling the P-38 this name? One says one German called it that. The other doesn't even say that much, only that the name came from North Africa.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: nrshida on April 06, 2016, 02:17:21 AM
The full translation of the German pilot interrogation has been recently discovered in the archives. It says: "Fork tail devils... the sky were full of them. They all augered on their attack run. I laughed so hard that I fell out of my plane and got captured. Those poor forktail devils... oh the humanity!"
So this nickname is genuine.
:rofl :aok
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 02:27:47 AM
you gotta be kidding with this obvious piece of bullsh*t war-time propaganda
We shouldn't take any historical document into account unless it passes your opinion of being suitably neutral in tone. Check.
Quote
I repeat: I have yet to find any GERMAN (!!) Luftwaffe accounts - memoirs & biographies, unit histories, air battles & campaigns - ever using the term "Gabel-schwanz teuffel" as a reference to the P-38.
You probably already know this but (and I repeat): just because you didn't see it written in the German accounts you've read does not at all mean a German pilot in North Africa in 1943 didn't once refer to a P-38 as a "fork-tailed devil" (or as a "twinboomed b*stard" or as "whatever that g*dd*mned double-tailed plane is called").
There's an article from 1943 by a Life Magazine writer who says a pilot did. You, with no evidence at all (except for "I never heard of such a thing elsewhere"), say it didn't happen. You are not the more-credible source. "Claim in 1943 Life Magazine disputed by 2016 message-board participant. 'Well, I never saw it in anything that I read,' says user RJH57". That's an Onion headline, not a useful argument.
Quote
So you may be correct in that Martin Caidin did not invent the term "Fork-Tailed Devil"
There's no "may" about it. I am correct about that -- obviously -- unless you think Caidin wrote under the alias "William P. Gray" for Life Magazine in 1943.
Quote
I'm surprised that Caidin in his book "Thunderbolt" didn't claim
Ah, strong biases and preconceptions -- always worthwhile to emphasize in a debate. The poker equivalent of, during the betting, uncontrollably blurting, "I'VE GOT A PAIR OF TWOS!"
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 03:03:08 AM
OK, you spuds -- I might deserve a beer for this one.
From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen
This is the wartime memoir of a boy named Will, who happened to be the nephew of the head of Nazi Germany’s intelligence agency, Foreign Armies East. . . .
The author, only 10 years old when the war began, became a helper at the local Luftwaffe flak battery, fetching ammunition. It was exciting work for Will (a member of the “Jungvolk”) and by the end of the war he had become expert at judging attacks.
From page 130:
"We heard the high pitch of aircraft engines and then saw them coming, just above the tops of the poplars. They were mean-looking machines. There were four of them, the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed, which could also be fitted with drop tanks and used as a long-range escort. They had the characteristic twin fuselage, and were powered by a pair of turbo-charged Allison engines. We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago, but this was the first time we had seen them for real. We had been told that their range was insufficient to reach us in Germany, but these devils had drop tanks. They jettisoned them as they came toward us, and the tanks landed in a field of stubble. The 88s were useless against them. They came in too low but we nevertheless did fire at them, probably just to keep up our morale. The P-38s made a turn and came on a beeline toward us."
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Squire on April 06, 2016, 03:09:23 AM
Quote
This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
-The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Serenity on April 06, 2016, 03:17:42 AM
OK, you spuds -- I might deserve a beer for this one.
From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen
This is the wartime memoir of a boy named Will, who happened to be the nephew of the head of Nazi Germany’s intelligence agency, Foreign Armies East. . . .
The author, only 10 years old when the war began, became a helper at the local Luftwaffe flak battery, fetching ammunition. It was exciting work for Will (a member of the “Jungvolk”) and by the end of the war he had become expert at judging attacks.
From page 130:
"We heard the high pitch of aircraft engines and then saw them coming, just above the tops of the poplars. They were mean-looking machines. There were four of them, the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed, which could also be fitted with drop tanks and used as a long-range escort. They had the characteristic twin fuselage, and were powered by a pair of turbo-charged Allison engines. We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago, but this was the first time we had seen them for real. We had been told that their range was insufficient to reach us in Germany, but these devils had drop tanks. They jettisoned them as they came toward us, and the tanks landed in a field of stubble. The 88s were useless against them. They came in too low but we nevertheless did fire at them, probably just to keep up our morale. The P-38s made a turn and came on a beeline toward us."
Bam! Now drop the mic, and don't look at the head-explosions!
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 06, 2016, 03:29:51 AM
I've read quite a few memoirs and autobiographies of German pilots and not once is the P-38 referred to as the fork-tailed devil. Is it possible that a German pilot used that phrase after being shot down and captured? Sure. Was it a German nickname for the P-38 in common use? No. They simply called it "Lightning".
B-17 was "Boeing". B-24 was "Liberator". P-47 was "Thunderbolt". P-51 was "Mustang". Spitfire was "Spitfire"... Germans aren't the most imaginative of peoples I guess.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 03:41:32 AM
He was not a pilot now was he... Also I have little faith in that account. If nothing else that kid should have stayed in school because no German would spell it "Gabelschwanz Teufel". Germans make compound words whenever two or more words are used to describe something. In this case the three words gabel (fork), schwanz (tail) and teufel (devil) would be combined into one compound word Gabelschwanzteufel.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 04:57:35 AM
Also I have little faith in that account. If nothing else that kid should have stayed in school because
"Our lessons in school, apart from a basic curriculum, revolved around aircraft identification (friendly and enemy), scrap collecting, herb collecting, parades and inspections, and messenger and light antiaircraft (AA) duties. . . .
"In 1943 I was ten years old, and at the age of ten we Jungvolk knew how to change the barrel on a 20mm gun. We loaded magazines and ran messages, often under fighter-bomber fire, between gun emplacements or to headquarters (HQ), when telephone communications had been shot to ribbons. A Hitler Youth knew the sound of a P-38 or a Typhoon making a beeline toward him with cannons blazing. He knew where to take cover in the nearest foxhole. He stood steadfast by the light of AA’s, handing magazines to the loader, when around him all hell was breaking loose. It was a total war, where everyone was involved, especially after the Normandy landings—because Germany, from that date, was waging a war on two fronts."
Quote
no German would spell it "Gabelschwanz Teufel". Germans make compound words ...
Maybe you don't know this, but in writing books, the author is often not the person who determines how the printed words appear. That is the realm of publishing company staff. Sometimes that staff makes errors, and sometimes they have a way they want to do it, and even an author who doesn't agree with them (right or wrong) loses that difference of opinion. Also, when a book lists a primary author who is not a professional writer in collaboration with a secondary author who is (in this case Don Gregory) it is highly likely that the second author is the one doing all of the actual writing based on things told to him by the primary author. I suspect that Don Gregory is not an expert in German syntax.
So, based on all of that, you dispute that the primary author is a German? Or you believe that Don Gregory inserted falsified information about a picky detail of German aircraft-identification cards on his own, falsely attributing it as the direct statement of the primary author?
Ye, gods, man. I get that German pilots clearly didn't typically call the P-38 a "fork-tailed devil". I said that already. I have read a lot as well (probably 50-100 books on WWII). What is now proven is that:
1. Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or the story of its origin. 2. The story of its origin is given in a 1943 Life Magazine article. 3. A German flak crewman says that "fork-tailed devil" was used on German ID flak-gunner cards in 1943.
This does *not* say that: 4. It was common for German pilots to call the P-38 the "fork-tailed devil". I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT. 1, 2, AND 3 DO NOT CLAIM THAT. 4 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT 1, 2, AND 3 ARE TRUE.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 05:24:31 AM
1. Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or the story of its origin. 2. The story of its origin is given in a 1943 Life Magazine article. 3. A German flak crewman says that "fork-tailed devil" was used on German ID flak-gunner cards in 1943.
This does *not* say that: 4. It was common for German pilots to call the P-38 the "fork-tailed devil". I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT. 1, 2, AND 3 DO NOT CLAIM THAT. 4 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER OR NOT 1, 2, AND 3 ARE TRUE.
Of that we are in agreement. However, considering the evidence of absence from German pilot accounts and recognition manuals, I'm not convinced of the veracity of point no. 2 and 3. I would like a lot more corroborating evidence before accepting them as fact. Even the fact that in some German publications the phrase is repeated using bad grammar indicates that the term originates from a person who's first language wasn't German.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Chalenge on April 06, 2016, 05:45:23 AM
If Martin Caidin sold that book as non-fiction, then it's the truth. He wrote fiction too, but the man knew his aviation history.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Mike Williams on April 06, 2016, 07:02:49 AM
Nice work Brooke.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: oboe on April 06, 2016, 07:33:57 AM
Brooke, what happened to the kid in the P-38 attack?!
Could you post the subsequent paragraph please?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Zimme83 on April 06, 2016, 07:59:09 AM
Still considering it at an "Urban myth". Its same with the "Whistling Death" that the Japanese were claimed to call the Corsair.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 06, 2016, 10:38:40 AM
From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen From page 130:
" the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed... powered by a pair of turbo-charged Allison engines. We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago,
so this 13-14 year old German kid (10 years old when the war began) knows the P-38 was made by Lockheed and had turbo-charged Allison engines after it was added to identification chart just a few weeks prior? I very much doubt that their a/c visual identification charts for use by Jungvolk Flak detachments included the maker and engine details. Would like to see one. Dubious, very dubious.
We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” this was the first time we had seen them for real.
NEVER encountered them before but already calling them “Gabelschwanz Teufel” ??
Fyi, Mr. Gehlen retired in 1983. He now lives in the Smokey Mountains Area of Eastern Tennessee ! The book is NOT an exact translation of a German language day-by-day wartime diary but an English language memoir written and published in 2008 at the urging of and with assistance by University professor Donald Gregory from Huntsville, Alabama. I would bet that Mr. Gehlen and co-author Donald Gregory read Caidin's book and researched other P-38 literature BEFORE they wrote his memoir.
Fyi, Mr. Gehlen claimed that his 20mm Flak unit shot down seven aircraft: Four American, three British! one mosquito, two scouts, two P.38's, a thunderbolt and a flying fortress! An impressive record if accurate, one that a Luftwaffe fighter pilot in Reichsverteidigung (Homeland defense) would envy.
Just to keep this thread in perspective: I am NOT disputing the P-38's record of wartime achievement, merely that the Germans - whether mumbled hysterically by disshelved POW's or Jungvolk barely into their teens - never used the ridiculous term of “Gabelschwanz Teufel” during the war. It does appear that this ridiculous name pre-dates Caidin's book (Life Magazine, August 16, 1943).
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2016, 11:39:11 AM
There appears to be a lot of squeak about Brooke merely pointing to a date of use and other members of the community taking it as a personal slight on either their fetish persona or perceived need to defend the apparently maligned warriors in two theaters over the original claims in the legends (which, well, are legends).
Sometimes, it don't take much.
(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/47443699.jpg)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Randy1 on April 06, 2016, 12:55:07 PM
One source not mentioned was that Lockheed may have made the name up for the press or least passed on an undocumented tale. Good press was important and the P-38 had some bad press to overcome as well as the high cost of the P-38 to build.. They wanted to keep making planes. This is a WAG so i have no proof what so ever.
I think too of the P-47 nickname the Jug. Some say it was the planes shape which looks more like a bottle instead of a jug but I believe it was came from a short version of juggernaut and possibly a Brit nickname. No one seems to know the source of that nickname either.
A good find anyway Brooke.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bustr on April 06, 2016, 01:17:44 PM
Sounds like History professors while teaching graduate programs, assaulting each other over pet theories from their personal publications to keep their rice bowls full of tenure.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2016, 01:26:50 PM
Hey now. I aspire to that. ;)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 01:33:10 PM
I would like a lot more corroborating evidence before accepting them as fact.
So you also don't accept 95% of the content in 1st-hand accounts of combat in all those books you read, because the large majority of material in personal accounts are not corroborated by a second source (or more than a 2nd source).
Things like a rare pilot here or there using flaps in combat you disbelieve, because while you might have seen a couple of mentions of such flap use in memoirs, for each such mention there are 50 other personal accounts that don't mention using flaps in combat and even a couple of personal accounts where the author says "we didn't use flaps in combat".
Zemke's account of surviving the disintegration of his P-51 in a severe storm, you would disbelieve.
Steve Pisanos's story of surviving a crash landing where he was out on the wing of his plane when it hit the ground, you would disbelieve.
Smith's story of his B-17 being saved by two P-38's where one P-38 dove on a formation of about 50 Bf 109's and chased them off, you would disbelieve.
Galland's story of flying alone to the English coast for a bit of combat with lobsters and champagne in his plane, then coming back for a friend's birthday party, you would disbelieve.
Hartmann's account of how he escaped Soviet captors you would disbelieve.
The only stories you would accept are those where there is a 1st-hand statement, and a researcher digs into it to find a 2nd person who claims he saw it and it is true, or (since I already did that with the "fork-tailed devil" issue -- two stories that say the Germans used the term) maybe 3, 4, or more independent references that say the same thing.
Do you see that a vanishingly small amount of the material in war memoirs you've read rises to that level of scrutiny?
Quote
Even the fact that in some German publications the phrase is repeated using bad grammar indicates that the term originates from a person who's first language wasn't German.
When it comes down to a disagreement between you and professional staff of German publications on how to write a German phrase (in works that are entirely German with apparently no scrap of English in them, by the way), I'm sure you would not be surprised that I believe the later to be more of an authority on the issue.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bustr on April 06, 2016, 02:05:58 PM
So you also don't accept 95% of the content in 1st-hand accounts of combat in all those books you read, because the majority of personal accounts we read are not corroborated by a second source.
I read everything with a healthy measure of skepticism. Even more so when the subject matter is pilots' stories or fishing tales. Someone who was a kid at the time and has had decades to be influenced by popular media... I don't have much faith in that at all.
That said, you seem to be arguing point no. 4 now rather than no. 1...
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 02:25:53 PM
That said, you seem to be arguing point no. 4 now rather than no. 1...
1, 2, and 3 are facts.
4 is irrelevant to 1, 2, and 3.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Zimme83 on April 06, 2016, 02:29:55 PM
Still disagree.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Squire on April 06, 2016, 02:30:09 PM
I see it as more of an argument about common usage. Terms like "Jug", "Me 109", "Zero" ect...were they called that or was it just some one-off that got repeated a few times and maybe inserted post event by a writer. Many of them are VERY common...and some others it would seem although there might be evidence of usage seem rather uncommon and hard to find despite being there great stories behind the handle. Also most of the nicknames we come across for planes are given by those who flew them and not their enemies...but there are exceptions.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Zimme83 on April 06, 2016, 02:33:40 PM
I have real hard to believe that the Germans printed Aircraft identification cards were the name Fork tailed Devil were used.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 02:34:34 PM
Something all my professors will no doubt resort to doing as I claw my way up to their pedestal. ;)
One man's 'truth' is another man's 'myth.' Just the facts*, ma'am (and I'll build my conclusion from that). :cool:
*Facts will include verified quotes which we may or may not know are lies. Lots of lies. A dedicated researcher dedicates himself to research. :old:
Like that fad in the 80's everyone who was anyone indulged in. Hypnosis induced past lives regression. Funny how no one discovered they shoveled cow crap for a living while suffering from TB. Always some famous persona, or person of royal linage, or of means for the era. At no cost do you allow anyone to touch your pedestal and notice it's not real gold leaf, just gold spray paint hiding the worm holes, rot, and bailing wire. A full rice bowel is more dear than the truth until your final breath.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Squire on April 06, 2016, 03:39:01 PM
Quote
Funny how no one discovered they shoveled cow crap for a living while suffering from TB
Screw you I was Cleopatra...i'm sorry if that upsets you. :P
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2016, 04:23:56 PM
Like that fad in the 80's everyone who was anyone indulged in. Hypnosis induced past lives regression. Funny how no one discovered they shoveled cow crap for a living while suffering from TB. Always some famous persona, or person of royal linage, or of means for the era. At no cost do you allow anyone to touch your pedestal and notice it's not real gold leaf, just gold spray paint hiding the worm holes, rot, and bailing wire. A full rice bowel is more dear than the truth until your final breath.
I discovered I was a piss boy. But it was a solid gold bucket. :grin:
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 04:34:18 PM
OK, you . . . I now think that I should get two beers.
This one *is* from a German pilot whose information is given in the book "A Higher Call". From the writer of "A Higher Call": "What you’ll read in the following pages is built around four years of interviews with Charlie and Franz and four years of research, on and off." Franz Stigler was a 109 pilot, and here is what he relates:
"THREE DAYS LATER, APRIL 16, 1943
Spiraling upward in their 109s through scattered clouds above the airfield, Franz and Willi saw smoke rising on the other side of Olympus. The gray plumes bellowed from the port of Palermo on the island’s north coast. The Four Motors had bombed the docks and power station there, sinking two ships. Franz, Willi, and twenty-one of their comrades had scrambled too late. The skies were otherwise empty. It was 4: 30 P.M., and the Four Motors had just spoiled the dinner dates Franz had lined up for him and Willi in Trapani. From Olympus, the controllers radioed the flight to alert them that P-38 fighters had been sighted above the Gulf of Palermo. Franz had never seen a P-38, but he had heard the name the boys in Africa gave the new American fighter—“ the Fork-Tailed Devil.”
. . .
Franz liked the idea of pursuing “the herd,” as the bombers were called, instead of “the Fork-Tailed Devils.” The call was Willi’s— he was leading the flights because their squadron commander, Sinner, had been banged up several weeks earlier after a crash landing on the airfield. Despite the fact that Willi was younger than him, Franz respected Willi’s rank and courage.
Not a minute had gone by before someone radioed, “Fighters! Eleven o’clock low!” Franz leaned forward against his straps and peered ahead of his left wing. He saw green silhouettes just two thousand feet below him. At sixteen thousand feet they motored in the opposite direction, toward Africa. Franz’s eyes went wide. Each fighter had two engines, one attached to each large wing. The engines’ booms extended back like fork blades connecting to a small tail. They were P-38s, ten of them, the Fork-Tailed Devils of the 82nd Fighter Group. The Americans called their planes “Lightnings.”
Eager to redeem himself from his botched run on the bombers, Willi radioed Franz to say he was attacking. Willi knew no bounds when it came to pushing his luck, so Franz agreed to cover him. Willi dismissed his flight, as did Franz. It was like the desert again, two experts against many. . . .
. . .
When Franz and Willi landed at Trapani, they hurried to fill out their victory claims in the operations shack. Willi claimed two P-38s and Franz one. Willi was cheerful because they had chased away an entire flight of Fork-Tailed Devils, but Franz felt a sense of regret. He had seen his enemy in the raft. He mentally put himself in that man’s shoes, floating alone as the sea grew choppy and storm clouds rolled in, without water or food. “That’s war,” Franz told himself as he lit a cigarette, another new habit. With each drag of smoke, he put the American pilot farther out of his mind. He scrawled his signature on the paperwork so he and Willi could go celebrate in Trapani, where black-haired “bella donnas” and bottles of sweet Marsala wine were calling."
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 06, 2016, 04:37:24 PM
I'm skeptical about the story myself, as I've heard "der Gabelschwanz Teufel" was coined by a Life Magazine journalist (shortly after a visit to N. Africa) embellishing a story for the readers to boost morale and then later used by Lockheed for public relations for the P-38.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2016, 04:40:33 PM
I'm skeptical about the story myself, as I've heard "der Gabelschwanz Teufel" was coined by a Life Magazine journalist (shortly after a visit to N. Africa) embellishing a story for the readers to boost morale and then later used by Lockheed for public relations for the P-38.
Hell, could even be that Franz Stigler's friends had Life magazine subs. :O
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bustr on April 06, 2016, 04:51:07 PM
Life Magazine helped create the "Flying Tigers" legend at a time America needed to hear some good news about fighting against the Japanese.
The German pilots could have started using forked tail devil after Life Magazine coined it (made it up) because it appealed to their sense of humor about made up stories concerning them. It is likely they had access to some serial publications from our side.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: DaveBB on April 06, 2016, 05:06:11 PM
I thought a bunch of P-38s and B-25s shot down a whole squadron of helpless JU-52s over the Med. I could see a shocked JU-52 crewman calling a P-38 a "fork tailed devil".
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 05:14:10 PM
Here we see again that "I read a lot of books and none of them mentioned this" and "it doesn't sound right to me" are not telling arguments and are not in the slightest proof that something didn't happen.
I posted one reference from 1943 Life Magazine -- and it was dismissed as a lie by the author unless there was some other source out there, preferably from the German point of view (evidence being essentially "because it doesn't sound right to me").
I posted a reference from a German flak crewman -- and it was dismissed as a lie unless there was some other source out there, preferably from a German pilot (evidence being essentially "because it still doesn't sound right to me").
I now have posted a third reference from a well-known German Bf 109 pilot, Franz Stigler, member of JG 27 (and late in the war with JV 44 in Me 262's), who flew in 109's in North Africa, Sicily, and Germany, against many types of enemy planes including notably P-38's.
If you still want to dispute things, the ball is now in your court -- show evidence that all three of these independent references were lying about the phrase "fork-tailed devil".
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: DaveBB on April 06, 2016, 05:18:47 PM
Here we see again that "I read a lot of books and none of them mentioned this" and "it doesn't sound right to me" are not telling arguments and are not in the slightest proof that something didn't happen.
I posted one reference from 1943 Life Magazine -- and it was dismissed as a lie by the author unless there was some other source out there, preferably from the German point of view (evidence being essentially "because it doesn't sound right to me").
I posted a reference from a German flak crewman -- and it was dismissed as a lie unless there was some other source out there, preferably from a German pilot (evidence being essentially "because it still doesn't sound right to me").
I now have posted a third reference from a well-known German Bf 109 pilot, Franz Stigler, member of JG 27 (and late in the war with JV 44 in Me 262's), who flew in 109's in North Africa, Sicily, and Germany, against many types of enemy planes including notably P-38's.
If you still want to dispute things, the ball is now in your court -- show evidence that all three of these independent references were lying about the phrase "fork-tailed devil".
I took a course from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Dept once, and while studying, I came across a great sentence published the FW Dept. "People will often ignore obvious facts due to cultural or religious beliefs". So I think you are dealing with folks that are ingrained with skepticism that may be borderline conspiracy theorists.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Hungry on April 06, 2016, 05:19:18 PM
I'm amazed too but what I'm really amazed about is what a Schwantz really is
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 05:24:52 PM
I'm amazed too but what I'm really amazed about is what a Schwantz really is
One of the reasons it seems people don't believe in "fork-tailed devil" is that they think of it as being a flattering term and think that the Germans wouldn't give the P-38 a flattering nickname.
I, too, am not so sure it is a flattering nickname, but that's beside the point for me. For me, it's just about evidence of was the term used or not. Evidence -- not conjecture or what a person emotionally believes.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 05:36:54 PM
It's ironic.
Folks here often go to great lengths to research WWII aircraft and to dispel misinformation regarding them.
Here we have something that folks thought was misinformation that now has evidence of not being misinformation after all.
Opposing the evidence with purely emotional arguments like "it doesn't sound right to me", "I didn't see it in other books I read", and "I heard it isn't true" -- when decent actual contrary evidence is clearly posted above -- is now promoting misinformation, not working to dispel it.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2016, 05:39:11 PM
One can play 'devil's advocate' either way, Brooke. I was fine with your first post proving a date of reference for the term. That would be a fact that the author of the book didn't make up or imagine the term. Clean cut. The 'truth' regarding true origin or design, however, is always a perceptively fuzzy thing. I've always liked the 'fork tailed devil' and 'whistling death' references. I could probably spend a lifetime playing history detective on their 'true' origin .... and still come up wanting. More so, the Luft fans and IJN fans will never believe anything that proves (or almost proves) it just as the USAAF and USN fans will never believe things that prove (or almost prove) the opposite. Second hand data, even in large quantity, can never be the 'truth' to someone that requires first hand experience. Unfortunately, first hand experience actually requires being there, in person, when it happened (and, even then, that's one moment in time at one spot that is a very specific situation without an omniscient view of what may have impacted it somewhere else at another time).
Having gone all philosophical and blurry, let me say I do appreciate each little bit of archival information you share. :aok
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 07:07:36 PM
I hear you, Arlo.
I actually expected the claim of the Germans using "fork-tailed devil" to be false (because I, too, hadn't seen it in German memoirs yet). I looked into it only because I felt people were being overly harsh on Caidin, much of whose work I like, and I wanted to see if I could find a reference to use earlier than his P-38 book. Then, I started to find things that were surprising to me.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 06, 2016, 07:09:50 PM
We could all use fresh viewpoints and perspectives. Thanks, again, for sharing yours. :cheers:
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 06, 2016, 07:26:18 PM
By the way, for those just going through this thread, here is a summary of the references and what they say.
-------------------------------------------
1. Life Magazine, August 16, 1943, p. 51, in the article "P-38": https://books.google.com/books?id=RVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA51&dq=gabelschwanz%20teufel&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=gabelschwanz%20teufel&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=RVAEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA51&dq=gabelschwanz%20teufel&pg=PA51#v=onepage&q=gabelschwanz%20teufel&f=false)
"Into that camp the military police brought a disheveled German flier who was mumbling hysterically and repeating something about 'der Gabelschwanz Teufel'. An interpreter was called, and he had the translation quickly: 'the fork-tailed devil'. The German was talking about the P-38."
---------------------------------------------
2. From "Jungvolk: The Story of a Boy Defending Hitler's Reich," by Wilhelm R. Gehlen (flak crew member)
"There were four of them, the new American fighter bombers, P-38s or Lightnings made by Lockheed, which could also be fitted with drop tanks and used as a long-range escort. . . . We had given them the name “Gabelschwanz Teufel” (fork-tailed devil) on our identification chart a few weeks ago, but this was the first time we had seen them for real. We had been told that their range was insufficient to reach us in Germany, but these devils had drop tanks."
-----------------------------------------------
3. From "A Higher Call" -- Author: "What you’ll read in the following pages is built around four years of interviews with Charlie and Franz and four years of research, on and off." Franz Stigler was a 109 pilot, and here is what he relates:
"THREE DAYS LATER, APRIL 16, 1943 . . .From Olympus, the controllers radioed the flight to alert them that P-38 fighters had been sighted above the Gulf of Palermo. Franz had never seen a P-38, but he had heard the name the boys in Africa gave the new American fighter—“ the Fork-Tailed Devil.”
. . .
"Franz liked the idea of pursuing “the herd,” as the bombers were called, instead of “the Fork-Tailed Devils.”
. . .
"He saw green silhouettes just two thousand feet below him. At sixteen thousand feet they motored in the opposite direction, toward Africa. Franz’s eyes went wide. Each fighter had two engines, one attached to each large wing. The engines’ booms extended back like fork blades connecting to a small tail. They were P-38s, ten of them, the Fork-Tailed Devils of the 82nd Fighter Group. The Americans called their planes “Lightnings.”
. . .
"When Franz and Willi landed at Trapani, they hurried to fill out their victory claims in the operations shack. Willi claimed two P-38s and Franz one. Willi was cheerful because they had chased away an entire flight of Fork-Tailed Devils . . ."
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Delirium on April 06, 2016, 08:07:39 PM
Brooke, you need to drink less coffee. This is much like a political argument, you aren't going to convince anyone to change their minds.
I love the P38 and I would really enjoy to read something along the lines of, "That monster came down, shot me down, knocked up my sister and groped my wife." However, items written during wartime for civilians to read are notoriously inaccurate. I have a great set of books that were printed during WWII that documents the war and reading it is pretty comical because there are all kinds of errors and complete falsehoods. I enjoy reading them because I take what I read with skepticism, but the real reason I read them is because it allows me to view the war through the eyes of the average person at home.
Besides, of the three references you posted above only one was written in the same century as WWII. Time can also affect a story's validity as well!
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 06, 2016, 10:25:30 PM
This one *is* from a German pilot whose information is given in the book "A Higher Call". From the writer of "A Higher Call": "What you’ll read in the following pages is built around four years of interviews with Charlie and Franz and four years of research, on and off." Franz Stigler was a 109 pilot, and here is what he relates:
no, NOT written in German by Franz Stigler during the war or not even shortly after the war! "A Higher Call " was written by 2 professional writers - Adam Makos and Larry Alexander - here in the USA, published in 2013. They are NOT translators of primary source material, nor academic Historians but journalists whose job is to CREATE a readable story and SELL it - in a book, magazine or newspaper. And guess what - every author's dream - MOVIE RIGHTS! British playwright Sir Tom Stoppard and his producer son, Will, have acquired the film rights to Makos’s book. ‘It’s going to be an epic,’ says Stoppard Jnr. Your "THREE DAYS LATER, APRIL 16, 1943" excerpt haswritten by a journalist all over it. Do you think an old man is going to remember this kind of vivid detail (e.g. "Spiraling upward in their 109s through scattered clouds above the airfield, Franz and Willi saw smoke rising on the other side of Olympus... Franz, Willi, and twenty-one of their comrades had scrambled too late.The skies were otherwise empty. It was 4: 30 P.M..... Not a minute had gone by before someone radioed, “Fighters! Eleven o’clock low!") SIXTY YEARS after the fact ? Hell, I can't remember what I was doing yesterday, a week, a month ago at 4:30 PM.
I would say the spirit of Martin Caidin lives on in Adam Makos. Fyi, author Adam Makos - a young, self-admitted aviation enthusiast who must have been well aware of the P-38's "Gabelschwanz Teuffel" moniker - began work on the book in 2004! Franz Stigler died in March 2008 and Charlie Brown eight months later. I'm not questioning the event but the telling of it in the book are NOT (rarely ?) always the precise words of either Stigler or Brown but based on fragmentary interviews with them. Poetic license - it's what writers and journalist do to create an effect or emotional impact, by embellishing a story, not necessarily lying with a deliberate intent to deceive or mislead. Being a pilot does not make one a good writer. And being a journalist does not make one an aviator.
About the Authors
Adam Makos is the author of the New York Times and international bestseller A Higher Call. In his sixteen years of work as a journalist in the military field, Makos has interviewed countless veterans from World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and present-day wars. In pursuit of a story, Makos has met with presidents, had tea with Prince Charles, accompanied a Special Forces raid in Iraq, and organized an expedition into North Korea in search of an MIA American serviceman. A native of Pennsylvania, he currently lives in Denver, Colorado.
Larry Alexander is the author of the New York Times bestselling biography Biggest Brother: The Life of Major Dick Winters, the Man Who Led the Band of Brothers. He is also the author of Shadows in the Jungle: The Alamo Scouts Behind Japanese Lines in World War II and In the Footsteps of the Band of Brothers: A Return to Easy Company's Battlefields with Sgt. Forrest Guth. Alexander has been a journalist and columnist for the Intelligencer Journal in Lancaster, Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 06, 2016, 11:15:00 PM
I thought a bunch of P-38s and B-25s shot down a whole squadron of helpless JU-52s over the Med. I could see a shocked JU-52 crewman calling a P-38 a "fork tailed devil".
they would have called out "Banditin!" (bandits) or "Indianer!" (Indians), the German equivalent of "bandits" or "bogeys". In the Mediterranean incident you cite, the hapless low & slow Ju-52's probably simply cried out "Scheisse!", possibly "küss dein Arsch Auf Wiedersehen" (kiss your *ss goodbye) or in a comic book version: "Holy Gabelschwanz Teuffel Batman!"
So you also don't accept 95% of the content in 1st-hand accounts of combat in all those books you read,
.... you would disbelieve. .... you would disbelieve. .... you would disbelieve.
Your "Life Magazine 1943", "Jungvolk" and "Higher Call", Caidin book references are NOT 1st-hand accounts! All written by professional AMERICAN writers, journalists, and a University professor. Because someone disbelieves ridiculous "Gabelschwanz Teuffel" propaganda term does not invalidate an entire book or episode nor detract from the reading enjoyment.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 01:47:44 AM
3 references.
You have none.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 07, 2016, 02:47:23 AM
I have A Higher Call: An Incredible True Story of Combat and Chivalry in the War-Torn Skies of World War II. Pre-ordered it in fact. It is a good read, and it is based on interviews with Stigler and Brown, but Markos embellish the story a lot. I'm not necessarily against this embellishment/artistic license because it makes the book an engaging novel and very enjoyable to read. After all the point of the book is to tell the story of two men caught up in the air war of WWII. However, the book is also full of factual errors and should not be used as a source for anything. Some errors were almost gratuitous and should have been avoided by doing just a little more research. Like the author's vivid description of the Pratt & Whitney engines of Brown's B-17 coughing to life in a cold, dreary English morning. Well, the B-17s didn't use Pratt and Whitney engines. They used Wright Cyclones.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 03:42:19 AM
Guys, if you want to dispute an item in a reference, you need to find a reference that refutes it.
Giving your personal feelings on the matter or showing that some different item in the reference is wrong is useless to your position. Such things are not evidence that the item is wrong.
If a book contains the statement "X is red", giving your personal feeling that X is not red is not useful. Looking in the book, finding the statement "Bob lives in Ohio" and showing that Bob does not in fact live in Ohio has no bearing at all on whether or not X is red.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 03:58:09 AM
I posted several references.
You guys can complain about what they say all you want. You can denigrate these references all you want.
But unless you have some references as support, what you are doing carries no weight or usefulness as evidence. That's not me making a personal judgment -- that's just how it goes in any process where people are trying to establish a fact.
Imagine if I had tried, without references, to argue that Caidin didn't invent "fork-tailed devil", and instead argued things like the following. 1. I have read lots of books, and none of them said that Caidin made it up, so he didn't make it up. 2. I like Caidin and think he's a great guy, so he didn't make it up. 3. Caidin wrote the phrase "fork-tailed" with a hyphen in it, which is correct grammar, so it is clear he didn't make it up. 4. Caidin's writing looks serious to me, not like propaganda-style writing, so he didn't make it up. 5. Caidin says in his book that Dick Bong flew P-38's, which is true, so this other thing he said is true.
All of those lines of reasoning are worthless.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 07, 2016, 04:23:43 AM
I agree, Caidin didn't invent "fork-tailed devil". I've always thought it was a 1943 Popular Science magazine article that coined the phrase.
Clearly just as much a promo-piece as the Life article you found.
However, the other points in your list are not so clear cut. And no, to dispute an item in a reference, I do not need to find a reference that refutes it. Not when your references are based on second hand witness accounts from dubious sources, or in one case a child's witness account twisted by 60 years of hindsight. I do not need to reference a negative proof to dismiss your sources as not credible. Proof of absence is plentiful in this case and stands on its own.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Randy1 on April 07, 2016, 06:11:27 AM
Maybe Lusche could give us other translations of "Gabelschwanz Teufel"
When you search just Gabelschwanz. The term is used with puss caterpillar. I have gotten stung by a puss caterpillar and it hurts badly. Could be the reference is to the sting of a puss caterpillar and it hurts like the devil.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 07, 2016, 09:24:24 AM
excerpts from the "Jungvolk" Preface by its true author Donald Gregory; It's NOT a first-person account! see URL below
"I wanted to turn Will's notes into a book that would be readable... and maybe even a bit entertaining... so a portion of this book IS MY INTERPRETATION and REWRITING of his notes ..."
and of course what can be more entertaining :rofl than a silly German phrase like "Gabelschwanz Teuffel" (with the possible exception of "I know nuffink!" from TV's Hogan's Heroes POW documentaries :D {cough}{hack}) which just rolls off the tongue, creating an image of superior American aviation technology intimidating and terrifying the German Luftwaffe and thereby swelling the breast of every red-blooded American patriot. :lol
regarding Martin Caidin, I readily acknowledge that he did NOT come up with "Gabelschwanz Teuffel", LIFE magazine apparently invented it in 1943 and it's been used by just about every journalist, author and ghost writer since then when writing about the P-38. The P-38's (and the F4-U Corsair's) wartime achievements (especially in the Pacific Theatre) do not need to be enhanced with ridiculous monikers by hack writers- entertaining as they might be to some (e.g. "The Whistling Gabelschwanz Teuffel of Death") :devil.
Guys, if you want to dispute an item in a reference, you need to find a reference that refutes it.
What are you looking for? A statement from Goering that states, "We never used the forked tailed devil phase." ? In that case, I want you to find evidence that German aviators didn't call the P38 'the big plane that knocked up my sister and groped my wife'.
With all due respect, you can't have it both ways, Brooke.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: oboe on April 07, 2016, 01:36:51 PM
Just discovered another reference to the "Fork-Tailed Devil" term.
This 1943 Signal Corp film on the P-38 "Angel in Overalls" claims that Germans referred to the P-38 the "Gabelschwanz Teufel", that its rate of climb was 4,000 fpm, that its top speed was secret but better than 425 mph, and that it can dive faster than the speed of sound!(time marker 8:59).
Definitely propaganda, made for Home Front consumption, but still interesting to watch.
<S>
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bustr on April 07, 2016, 01:54:28 PM
Would it be easier to approach this from the position of researching the US PR fabrications from WW2 to keep the home front moral up? All of those films for public consumption have exaggerated descriptive language. You read the same in public periodicals.
What did the German military call the spitfire, typhoon, P47 and P51 other than their military designations? From what I could find, Whispering and Whistling Death monikers were given by the allied side to those aircraft as PR. What pejorative monikers do we really know were in use by the Luft pilots for allied fighters? That is a window into the macro cultural language use at the time, and the micro culture usage specifically to the German military.
Just like US language lingo of the 40's is different from current lingo and writing style. You see this just by translating ww2 german manuals using modern german -> english translators.
We are arguing about something as problematical as the origin of "Teufel-brigade".
While carrying out beachhead operations at Anzio, legend has it that a member of the Force uncovered the journal of a German lieutenant from the Herman Goering Division. The journal contained the following entry: "The Black Devils are all around us every time we come into the line. We never hear them come." This legend was never verified as fact by any member of the brigade; however, the force was known as the Black Devils and as the Devil's Brigade
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 02:05:53 PM
You guys wouldn't accept me saying "fork-tailed devil" is fine because I think so. You would want me to give references that show: -- It was used in 1943 when the P-38 came out. -- That Germans used the term.
I did that, but you guys don't like my references.
OK, but you can't stand on your dislike of them as evidence that they are wrong, and examples of how something else in them is wrong is not very good evidence either. Why? Because your like or dislike of references is irrelevant, and because if a book says "X is red" and "Bob lives in Ohio", and you find that Bob doesn't live in Ohio, it doesn't provide any information about whether or not X is red.
So, "what am I looking for"?
I don't care if you do it or not, but if you want to change my mind, you need references and evidence strong enough to override the current references and evidence -- not feelings and not debate of some separate point, like whether or not Bob lives in Ohio.
I already fully understand that the 3 references I posted are not sufficient evidence for you. I accept that.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 07, 2016, 02:38:13 PM
You guys wouldn't accept me saying "fork-tailed devil" is fine because I think so.
Brooke, you can call the P-38 anything you want. No one is stopping you. No one has the right to stop you.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Mister Fork on April 07, 2016, 04:58:17 PM
To Brooke's credit, history is always written by the victors. Point in fact, I thought the devil term was reference to Japanese fighter pilots, not German. In retrospect, they called it "two planes, one pilot".
I consider myself an amateur historian, like an amateur astronomer. I'm about the facts. What do we know. What are the sources. What do other sources say that contradict or support. And can anyone else validate or dispute the findings (which is actually a good thing). Similar to the scientific method of research.
Armchair historians are however, more about speculation, hypothesis, insight, and theory, rarely sticking to the facts. (Yes, that is an acronmyn for something. s.h...) :D
So, who are armchair historians, and who are amateur historians? :x
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 05:10:39 PM
Quote
You guys wouldn't accept me saying "fork-tailed devil" is fine because I think so.
Brooke, you can call the P-38 anything you want. No one is stopping you. No one has the right to stop you.
Let me rephrase. You guys wouldn't accept me claiming that the following is accurate because I think so: Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or "gabelshwanz teufel", and one or more WWII Germans did call the P-38 a "gableshwanz teufel".
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Arlo on April 07, 2016, 05:14:48 PM
To Brooke's credit, history is always written by the victors. Point in fact, I thought the devil term was reference to Japanese fighter pilots, not German. In retrospect, they called it "two planes, one pilot".
I consider myself an amateur historian, like an amateur astronomer. I'm about the facts. What do we know. What are the sources. What do other sources say that contradict or support. And can anyone else validate or dispute the findings (which is actually a good thing). Similar to the scientific method of research.
Armchair historians are however, more about speculation, hypothesis, insight, and theory, rarely sticking to the facts. (Yes, that is an acronmyn for something. s.h...) :D
So, who are armchair historians, and who are amateur historians? :x
I waffle back and forth. I'm studying to lose the amateur status and get paid for it, though. I may lecture from an armchair, however (if I lecture).
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 07, 2016, 06:03:40 PM
Let me rephrase. You guys wouldn't accept me claiming that the following is accurate because I think so: Caidin didn't invent the term "fork-tailed devil" or "gabelshwanz teufel", and one or more WWII Germans did call the P-38 a "gableshwanz teufel".
I think that was resolved like on page 2.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 07:15:06 PM
What also has been resolved is that there are folks here who don't accept as accurate those same statements even if there are three references backing them up.
Yet their counter argument has no references.
You see, I am pointing out a double standard (or worse than a double standard) being employed.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 07, 2016, 07:17:39 PM
The veracity of your references is being questioned, and rightfully so.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 07, 2016, 08:28:00 PM
GScholz and RJH57:
Whether or not we agree on this particular topic, you guys obviously have a lot of enthusiasm and energy for WWII aviation.
I know that this is not on topic, but it occurred to me, and while I am thinking of it: would you guys be willing to fly in the next Scenario, The Battle of the Dnieper?
Scenarios take more commitment than the Main Arena, and participants tend to be people who are more passionate about WWII aviation. That seems like you guys, but I don't think I've seen you in scenarios before.
What do you say? Are you willing to give it a go?
More details are here: http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201606_BattleOfTheDnieper/rules.htm
Also, everyone else is very welcome to play in it also. We love getting more players into Scenarios.
... uncovered the journal of a German lieutenant from the Herman Goering Division. The journal contained the following entry: "The Black Devils are all around us every time we come into the line. We never hear them come."
He was probably referring to the tough & hardy Moroccan soldiers (called Goumiers by the French) who were adept at night infiltration and using their knifes to kill. They were much feared by the Germans in Italy. Fyi, German paratroopers (Fallschirmjäger) came to be known as the "green devils" by the Allied forces they fought against.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bustr on April 07, 2016, 11:22:00 PM
If you look back in American literature up into the 40's and Hollywood movie dialog starting with the first talkies. America over used devil. "Those devils", Red Devils for Indians. Black Devils for jungle flicks. Brown devils for other parts of the world. Yellow devils for Asians. Devil Dogs, Devils Brigade, devil women, jungle devils..... Because our nation was very Christian and the devil held a powerful position in the American psyche. American screen writers and writers in general at the time tended to project American cultural constructs onto other countries when they tried to write about them. The closest country in using devil like we did was England.
You will need to investigate the German culture as projected through it's common language of the 30s-40s to see any head way with this.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 07, 2016, 11:47:44 PM
America over used devil....You will need to investigate the German culture
Germans frequently use devil ("Teuffel") to describe someone or something as unruly, hard to manage, devlish. Also, where we use the word "hell" as in "go to hell", Germans say "geh zum Teuffel" (go to the devil). I have no doubt that Germans often used the word "Teuffel" during the war to describe a fierce adversary or combat.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 08, 2016, 01:25:08 AM
Whether or not we agree on this particular topic, you guys obviously have a lot of enthusiasm and energy for WWII aviation.
I know that this is not on topic, but it occurred to me, and while I am thinking of it: would you guys be willing to fly in the next Scenario, The Battle of the Dnieper?
Scenarios take more commitment than the Main Arena, and participants tend to be people who are more passionate about WWII aviation. That seems like you guys, but I don't think I've seen you in scenarios before.
What do you say? Are you willing to give it a go?
I love scenarios, but no can do. I've just moved and most of my gaming gear is still in storage. I probably won't be back until AH3 is out the door anyways. But thank you for the invite. :)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 08, 2016, 05:43:51 AM
Oh I see it's in June? If so then I might be back by then. We'll see! :)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Randy1 on April 08, 2016, 06:09:18 AM
Try to think of this from a practical stand point.
I keep thinking the descriptive word "Fork" is questionable when describing a P-38. Does any English source use fork tail when describing a P-38?
Note when searching other uses of the German word, you find "fork tail snapper." Fork, like "Fork in the road." and "fork tailed snapper" is a "Y" shape. I just don't think fork would be used as a common descriptive word for the twin booms in any language. One German might have used that description, but "The Germans . . ." as a whole, is very questionable.
Is there a German plane with a tail similar to the P-38? If so, how is it described?
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 08, 2016, 07:07:56 AM
Blohm und Voss Bv 138 flying boat: (http://weapons-of-war.ucoz.ru/_ph/88/62234151.jpg)
the Gotha Go 242 transport glider; Gotha Go 244 was motorized version (http://www.theworldwars.net/weapons/pictures/air/de/photos/photo_de_go244_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 08, 2016, 07:32:43 AM
The German wiki page on the P-38 describes it as "doppelten Leitwerksträgern und einer zentralen Rumpfgondel".
The German wiki page on the P-38 describes it as "doppelten Leitwerksträgern und einer zentralen Rumpfgondel".
Thank You :) ATTENTION Brooke: rather than wasting time trying to find non-existent GERMAN wartime references to a "Gabelschwanz Teuffel" you need to try and find "doppelten Leitwerksträgern und einer zentralen Rumpfgondel Teuffel". ;)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 08, 2016, 07:58:16 AM
Thank You :) ATTENTION Brooke: rather than wasting time trying to find non-existent GERMAN wartime references to a "Gabelschwanz Teuffel" you need to try and find "doppelten Leitwerksträgern und einer zentralen Rumpfgondel Teuffel". ;)
Actually, Brooke merely started the thread by reflecting a mere reference that dated it's use. You're the one that shifted focus to how terribly unfair this all is to your Luftwaffe heroes (which seems more of a waste of time). Just sayin'. :aok :old:
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: oboe on April 08, 2016, 09:38:48 AM
Actually, Brooke merely started the thread by reflecting a mere reference that dated it's use. You're the one that shifted focus to how terribly unfair this all is to your Luftwaffe heroes (which seems more of a waste of time). Just sayin'. :aok :old:
:airplane: I hate to be the one to "de-bunk" the story here about the Germans naming the 38 with a slang nick name, but I think if you dig deep enough, you will find that the Japanese were the first ones to call it a "fork tailed devil", in mid 1943, the story of the "shoot down" of their big shot admiral in the islands is the first account you will see of it being called that. The wire back to the homeland described the attackers of being "fork tailed devils". I personally don't know who should receive credit for the name, but I suspect Richard Bong had a lot to do with convincing the Japanese that it was a "super" fighter, no matter what the name!
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Ack-Ack on April 08, 2016, 12:16:03 PM
:airplane: I hate to be the one to "de-bunk" the story here about the Germans naming the 38 with a slang nick name, but I think if you dig deep enough, you will find that the Japanese were the first ones to call it a "fork tailed devil", in mid 1943, the story of the "shoot down" of their big shot admiral in the islands is the first account you will see of it being called that. The wire back to the homeland described the attackers of being "fork tailed devils". I personally don't know who should receive credit for the name, but I suspect Richard Bong had a lot to do with convincing the Japanese that it was a "super" fighter, no matter what the name!
I don't recall the IJN/IJA pilots using that nickname for the P-38. In an interview with Sakai, he referenced the P-38 as the "P-38" and "Lightning". The IJN/IJA pilot supposedly called the F4U "Whistling Death" due to the sound the Corsair made when in a dive but that is most likely the invention of another journalist trying to sell a copy and raise morale on the home front.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Randy1 on April 08, 2016, 12:35:03 PM
Zwei is two in the German language. There you have it. The likelihood of German pilots using the term "fork tail" may be very slim. Fork is just a poor choice of words for the twin boom P-38. One German may have used the term but to imply it was a common term is a very long stretch.
Lockheed would have loved the nickname.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: bustr on April 08, 2016, 01:59:21 PM
Is Teuffel an older archaic version of Teufel?
In German I can only find the single f spelling for devil.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Mister Fork on April 08, 2016, 03:25:38 PM
:airplane: I hate to be the one to "de-bunk" the story here about the Germans naming the 38 with a slang nick name, but I think if you dig deep enough, you will find that the Japanese were the first ones to call it a "fork tailed devil", in mid 1943, the story of the "shoot down" of their big shot admiral in the islands is the first account you will see of it being called that. The wire back to the homeland described the attackers of being "fork tailed devils". I personally don't know who should receive credit for the name, but I suspect Richard Bong had a lot to do with convincing the Japanese that it was a "super" fighter, no matter what the name!
That's what I remembered too Earl - I thought it was the slang the Japanese fighter pilots had for the P-38. BWTFDIK.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 08, 2016, 04:20:22 PM
Whether or not we agree on this particular topic, you guys obviously have a lot of enthusiasm and energy for WWII aviation.
I know that this is not on topic, but it occurred to me, and while I am thinking of it: would you guys be willing to fly in the next Scenario, The Battle of the Dnieper?
RJH57, what do you say? Are you up for it? It has no Gabelshwanz-Teufels in it.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 08, 2016, 05:41:59 PM
I just hope there are 109 spots left by then... ;)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Devil 505 on April 08, 2016, 06:30:03 PM
RJH57, what do you say? Are you up for it? It has no Gabelshwanz-Teufels in it.
Actually, I would not have any objections to flying a P-38 "Gabelshwanz Teufel", I like the plane, it's unique. :airplane: Flew it occasionally in the old Air Warrior arena. I remember building a model of it when I was a kid. Thanks for the invite but my old PC does not have the horsepower to run Aces High. I need to upgrade to a latest & greatest PC but the idea of re-installing and converting all my stuff to a new machine and Windows 10 is daunting :frown:
How to Fly The Lockheed P-38 Lightning Fighter Plane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKtfvcfHizk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKtfvcfHizk)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: RJH57 on April 09, 2016, 02:57:50 AM
The IJN/IJA pilot supposedly called the F4U "Whistling Death" due to the sound the Corsair made when in a dive but that is most likely the invention of another journalist trying to sell a copy and raise morale on the home front.
I don't think they would hear it inside their IJN/IJA cockpits ? :airplane: Air combat is all about seeing your opponent first, not hearing him first.
Thanks for the invite but my old PC does not have the horsepower to run Aces High. I need to upgrade to a latest & greatest PC but the idea of re-installing and converting all my stuff to a new machine and Windows 10 is daunting :frown:
Do you mean that your old machine won't run AH2 or you don't think it will run the upcoming AH3? For my setup, AH3 doesn't seem that much more resource intensive than AH2.
Also, in case it is of any use in labor savings or low-enough cost to reduce barriers to giving it a shot, I find that a $500 Dell Inspiron desktop with a $140 graphics card gives me 55-60 fps in AH3 beta. You can still get an Inspiron Desktop with Windows 7 from the small business section.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: FLOOB on April 09, 2016, 09:17:23 PM
So if the previous version of AH was AHII and the upcoming version will be AHIII, what is the current version?
Spork tailed weevils.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: FLOOB on April 09, 2016, 10:36:14 PM
And by the way the p38 was caca.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 09, 2016, 11:00:38 PM
You should read the book "Fork-Tailed Devil," by Caidin. :aok
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: FLOOB on April 09, 2016, 11:08:35 PM
Yeah, I'm going to read a book about some world war II airplane. And then I'll starting building scale models and maybe join a civil war reenactment club. And then I'll buy a life's supply of Jergens because I'm never getting laid again!
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Brooke on April 10, 2016, 12:31:23 AM
Yeah, I'm going to read a book about some world war II airplane. And then I'll starting building scale models and maybe join a civil war reenactment club. And then I'll buy a life's supply of Jergens because I'm never getting laid again!
Are you sure you need the first two sentences as qualifiers? ;)
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: FLOOB on April 10, 2016, 03:09:21 AM
And then I'll buy a life's supply of Jergens because I'm never getting laid again!
Well, that implies you have been laid at least once already. How many roofies did it take?
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: Karnak on April 10, 2016, 10:33:29 PM
It seems highly unlikely that the Germans would have a slang term for the P-38, and not for any other aircraft, not the Spitfire, Mustang, Thunderbolt, Mosquito, Yak or Lavochkins.
I had always believed it to be a propaganda created name, just like "Whispering Death" and "Whistling Death" and Brooke's info in this thread has only reinforced that view.
I can't think of any dread inducing nicknames the USAAF, USN, RAF or RN created for the Bf109 or A6M. Perhaps "Butcher Bird" for the Fw190, but I honestly have no idea about the origin of that nickname. For all I know it could be the German nickname translated to English and no more relevant than Jug or Spit were to the Germans.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: GScholz on April 11, 2016, 05:59:18 AM
Yes it is the German name Würger translated to English. I doubt it was used by the allies during the war though. "One-ninety" and "Fock-Wolf" [sic] was probably all it was called.
Title: Re: Definitive proof of origin of "Fork-Tailed Devil"
Post by: oboe on April 11, 2016, 08:58:13 AM
TIL:
"Würger" actually translates to "Shrike", which a songbird with a strong sharply hooked bill, often impaling its prey of small birds, lizards, and insects on thorns. The family name, and that of the largest genus, Lanius, is derived from the Latin word for "butcher", and some shrikes are also known as "butcher birds" because of their feeding habits.