General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Saxman on April 29, 2016, 05:28:43 PM
Title: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Saxman on April 29, 2016, 05:28:43 PM
The USAF will be pitting the A-10 Thunderbolt II against the F-35 Lightning II (http://www.cnn.com/2016/04/28/politics/air-force-f-35-vs-a-10-showdown/?iid=ob_lockedrail_bottomlarge) in a series of exercises replicating the conditions both aircraft would face on the battlefield, in an attempt to prove the validity of its decision to replace the A-10 with the Joint Strike Fighter.
Any bets on how badly the USAF brass are going to be embarrassed in THIS face-off?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on April 29, 2016, 06:40:10 PM
My left nut says the F-35 is beyond complete and utter failure.
My right nut says the AF covers it up by saying it's a GREAT option, and will serve with distinction.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on April 29, 2016, 07:00:13 PM
The question is: What battlefield? If they simulate any sort of modern air defense assets in that test the F-35 will win just by surviving when the A-10 doesn't have a chance. Better to get a couple of bombs and a few 25mm rounds on target than having to burden the ground troops even more by asking them to rescue a downed A-10 pilot.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on April 29, 2016, 09:00:57 PM
The question is: What battlefield? If they simulate any sort of modern air defense assets in that test the F-35 will win just by surviving when the A-10 doesn't have a chance. Better to get a couple of bombs and a few 25mm rounds on target than having to burden the ground troops even more by asking them to rescue a downed A-10 pilot.
Well, is it not safe to assume that the air defense assets have already been hit by the countless Growlers, Raptors, and other SEAD assets?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on April 29, 2016, 09:22:49 PM
Most, but not all. If anything, Kosovo proved that. I hope the Army participates in this test. I'd be most interested in what they have to say. They're after all the people who will rely on this aircraft in the CAS role.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: branch37 on April 29, 2016, 09:36:27 PM
My left nut says the F-35 is beyond complete and utter failure.
My right nut says the AF covers it up by saying it's a GREAT option, and will serve with distinction.
You are more than likely correct.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Brooke on April 29, 2016, 10:18:51 PM
These sorts of things are usually not done unless the outcome is known beforehand. An exception would be if the A-10 has enough political clout on its side for the contest not to be rigged in favor of the F-35. However, considering how much money has been put into the F-35, how much money is still to be put into the F-35, how government works (i.e., "Help us out, and there is a high-paying job waiting for you after you leave the Pentagon or Congress" is known to all), how many careers would be ruined if the F-35 program were to be terminated, and I give it much higher odds that the F-35 "wins". For example, if you consider that the conditions will be such that a non-stealthy aircraft is often shot down before delivering ord, you know that the F-35 will win.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on April 30, 2016, 05:21:54 AM
For example, if you consider that the conditions will be such that a non-stealthy aircraft is often shot down before delivering ord, you know that the F-35 will win.
Those are the real life conditions in a potential future war with a major regional or global power. The A-10 works fine as a COIN platform, but the current low intensity wars in the ME is not the kind of war the US armed forces are preparing to fight.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: pipz on April 30, 2016, 07:36:37 AM
:D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: wil3ur on April 30, 2016, 10:29:59 AM
Those are the real life conditions in a potential future war with a major regional or global power. The A-10 works fine as a COIN platform, but the current low intensity wars in the ME is not the kind of war the US armed forces are preparing to fight.
Again, you're assuming the A-10 would try to be a day-one lone wolf. In a conflict with a major nation, the A-10 is NOT going in until SEAD has already slammed the area, the F-22s and B-2s have already done their thing, and even then the A-10 WILL likely have a Growler or some other suppression asset with it to cover it while it does it's thing.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Brooke on April 30, 2016, 02:35:46 PM
Those are the real life conditions in a potential future war with a major regional or global power. The A-10 works fine as a COIN platform, but the current low intensity wars in the ME is not the kind of war the US armed forces are preparing to fight.
Of course. But I'm sure that people debating whether or not the A-10 is useful to keep debate also that stealth is a necessary component of the role they have in mind.
An analogy I'm thinking of is more like this. "We think the F-35 is a fine replacement for the C-130." "What? Are you insane?" "Well, let's have a test to see which aircraft under real-life conditions delivers more cargo. Our real-life condition by the way is that an aircraft without stealth will be shot down every time." "But the C-130 is used in conditions that don't require stealth, and there, the F-35 is a horrible replacement." "Yes, but those are not the real-life conditions of our test."
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on April 30, 2016, 02:44:57 PM
Of course. But I'm sure that people debating whether or not the A-10 is useful to keep debate also that stealth is a necessary component of the role they have in mind.
An analogy I'm thinking of is more like this. "We think the F-35 is a fine replacement for the C-130." "What? Are you insane?" "Well, let's have a test to see which aircraft under real-life conditions delivers more cargo. Our real-life condition by the way is that an aircraft without stealth will be shot down every time." "But the C-130 is used in conditions that don't require stealth, and there, the F-35 is a horrible replacement." "Yes, but those are not the real-life conditions of our test."
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Ramesis on April 30, 2016, 03:27:02 PM
A-10 vs F-35? Sounds like the odds are stacked... It would be like a an F8k Crusader against a A-28... the Crusader will beat the 28 and the A-10 would beat the 35 That is if it would be strictly a gun fight... no aims Ramsis
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Zimme83 on April 30, 2016, 04:18:52 PM
Of course. But I'm sure that people debating whether or not the A-10 is useful to keep debate also that stealth is a necessary component of the role they have in mind.
An analogy I'm thinking of is more like this. "We think the F-35 is a fine replacement for the C-130." "What? Are you insane?" "Well, let's have a test to see which aircraft under real-life conditions delivers more cargo. Our real-life condition by the way is that an aircraft without stealth will be shot down every time." "But the C-130 is used in conditions that don't require stealth, and there, the F-35 is a horrible replacement." "Yes, but those are not the real-life conditions of our test."
What I would like to know is what happen if there are an overcast at like 5000 ft over the target area. Can the F-35 still provide CAS if it has to go below the overcast?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: FLOOB on April 30, 2016, 07:48:03 PM
This thread is a troll. It has nothing to do with Ali and Foreman's rumble in the jungle. Skuzzy must be on vacation or something.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: matt72078 on April 30, 2016, 09:36:01 PM
In a fight with an enemy that had modern air defenses the F-35 would be better at CAS simply because it would survive longer than on the battlefield. The SAMs Russia and China have today would shoot down the A-10 long before it had a chance to drop it's bombs. People think the A-10 is awesome because of what it did way back in Cold war and what it's doing against a bunch of goat herders today. Between budget cuts and F-35 cost overruns, the AF can't afford to have both aircraft. So they chose the aircraft of the future. Having a competition between to two is a waste of time. It's just about Sen. McCaine saving jobs at DM AFB in his home state of Arizona. I think it was the vice chief of staff of the AF who said using the F-35 to fight ISIL is like using a very expensive sports car to haul the garbage. That is why the AF is now looking at a cheap replacement for the A-10. Something like a turboprop that can do CAS cheaply in low intensity conflicts.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: icepac on May 01, 2016, 10:24:24 AM
I'd love to see an A10 try to provide top cover.
Ridiculous comparison.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: wil3ur on May 01, 2016, 10:34:00 AM
In 1991 Iraq was some of the most heavily defended airspace on the planet. Did we just send in A10s all willy-nilly to blow stuff up, or even F18's for that matter? No, we hit the living crap out of their air defenses for a month before we ever decided to bring in the ground attack planes. I feel like the Pro-35 group is insinuating we'll be able to waltz into someone's air space and do ground ops without first destroying their ability to shoot back... I don't think, even with stealth, we'll take that gamble with lives and equipment... I'd say all things being even, I'd like to see the turkey loop back and put guns on target within the length of a football field.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 01, 2016, 12:46:49 PM
Iraq was a walkover and the coalition could have won that war with F-4 Phantoms. The Air Force isn't preparing to fight another third-world country. They're preparing for the next war where America or her allies may even be on the defensive against a major power. The next enemy may not be as accommodating as Saddam and not allow the allies to do much battlefield prepping before the troops need support. What then? Do you send in a squadron of F-35s on CAS or one A-10 with a squadron's worth of support assets just to keep him alive?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on May 01, 2016, 01:21:36 PM
In 1991 Iraq was some of the most heavily defended airspace on the planet. Did we just send in A10s all willy-nilly to blow stuff up, or even F18's for that matter? No, we hit the living crap out of their air defenses for a month before we ever decided to bring in the ground attack planes. I feel like the Pro-35 group is insinuating we'll be able to waltz into someone's air space and do ground ops without first destroying their ability to shoot back... I don't think, even with stealth, we'll take that gamble with lives and equipment... I'd say all things being even, I'd like to see the turkey loop back and put guns on target within the length of a football field.
Iraq was a walkover and the coalition could have won that war with F-4 Phantoms.
The Hornet pilots I know who were there would beg to differ. No, it wasn't Russia, but the air defenses were real. But we neutralized them intelligently, just as we would with Russia, or China.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Zimme83 on May 01, 2016, 03:27:34 PM
Iraq was a walkover and the coalition could have won that war with F-4 Phantoms. The Air Force isn't preparing to fight another third-world country. They're preparing for the next war where America or her allies may even be on the defensive against a major power. The next enemy may not be as accommodating as Saddam and not allow the allies to do much battlefield prepping before the troops need support. What then? Do you send in a squadron of F-35s on CAS or one A-10 with a squadron's worth of support assets just to keep him alive?
That was exactly the war the A-10 was built for, a war with the WP in Europe. The difference from then is that even back in the 80:s losses were a part of the game. the A-10 was expected to be shot down, but not until they had busted enough Red tanks and vechles so that the ground forces could deal with them. The F-35 (and F-22) is too valuable to be shot down in any greater number.
I would say that the A-10 isn't really going to be replaced, the F-35 will perform the same type of CAS as the F-16 and F/A-18 does today and that the USAF simply accept that the A-10 is going to leave a hole that is filled by other weapon systems. F-35, Drones, ATGM, Attack helos etc.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 01, 2016, 04:11:26 PM
When the A-10 was introduced in the '70s air defense systems were infantile compared to what's being fielded now. The A-10 could survive back then by being tough and having a low IR signature, using the terrain for cover. These days MANPADs can easily track any aircraft, so staying low to evade radar is even more dangerous now than flying high was back then. The A-10, while still a brilliant COIN aircraft has little or no chance of survival in a modern combat environment.
Even after Iraq had been prepped by SEAD for weeks the U.S. lost more A-10s than any other aircraft type. All to SAMs. Four were shot down outright, while three managed to limp back to base but were damaged beyond repair. That was with mostly pre-1980s SAMs and after weeks of unrelenting SEAD strikes. The small force of A-10s suffered almost 30% of all U.S. air losses in the Gulf War. Low and slow just isn't survivable anymore.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Vulcan on May 01, 2016, 04:56:40 PM
Can the F35 even mount and/or fire a cannon yet?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Zimme83 on May 01, 2016, 05:41:13 PM
When the A-10 was introduced in the '70s air defense systems were infantile compared to what's being fielded now. The A-10 could survive back then by being tough and having a low IR signature, using the terrain for cover. These days MANPADs can easily track any aircraft, so staying low to evade radar is even more dangerous now than flying high was back then. The A-10, while still a brilliant COIN aircraft has little or no chance of survival in a modern combat environment.
Even after Iraq had been prepped by SEAD for weeks the U.S. lost more A-10s than any other aircraft type. All to SAMs. Four were shot down outright, while three managed to limp back to base but were damaged beyond repair. That was with mostly pre-1980s SAMs and after weeks of unrelenting SEAD strikes. The small force of A-10s suffered almost 30% of all U.S. air losses in the Gulf War. Low and slow just isn't survivable anymore.
But they destroyed a ton of tanks in the process. As i said in my previous post, that was how the A-10 was supposed to be used and thats why it is built like a tank. 4 A-10:s for 900 tanks is probably a much better result than anyone had expected. 7 lost Aircraft in 8100 sorties is a fantastic number for a plane like the A-10. But for a number of reasons it is no longer a viable strategy to loose any greater number of Aircrafts so not even the A-10 will be able to fly those missions in the future. F-35 or not, the A-10 as you said will be reduced to a COIN-Aircraft and eventually retired.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on May 01, 2016, 05:42:17 PM
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 02, 2016, 04:56:47 AM
For this test the gun might not be relevant. The answers are in the article originally posted:
"The F-35 will not do close air support mission the same way the A-10 does. It will do it very differently. The A-10 was designed to be low, and slow, and close to the targets it was engaging, relatively speaking," Frank Kendall III, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, told the Senate panel Tuesday. "We will not use the F-35 in the same way as the A-10.."
"We're going to let the F-35 pilots take advantage of the systems on that aircraft ... and see how well the missions are carried out in terms of the ability to strike targets in a timely manner and accurately, and then report on that,"
"Different or not, the Pentagon expects the F-35 to come out the winner in the face-off because it can handle different roles."
"Clearly the F-35 should have an advantage in higher threat environments than the A-10 does,"
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 02, 2016, 05:37:48 AM
If I were to venture a guess I'd say they are going to simulate the F-35 carrying the SDB II. Allowing one F-35 to carry eight 204 lb smart-bombs internally + two AMRAAMs. The F-35 can stay high and for all intends and purposes be invisible and invulnerable to ground forces, while delivering precision strikes directed by friendly ground forces. Having two AMRAAMs each a small flight of F-35s will be able to defend themselves against potential air threats, and can also interdict enemy CAS missions before they reach the battle area.
If I were to venture a guess I'd say they are going to simulate the F-35 carrying the SDB II. Allowing one F-35 to carry eight 204 lb smart-bombs internally + two AMRAAMs. The F-35 can stay high and for all intends and purposes be invisible and invulnerable to ground forces, while delivering precision strikes directed by friendly ground forces. Having two AMRAAMs each a small flight of F-35s will be able to defend themselves against potential air threats, and can also interdict enemy CAS missions before they reach the battle area.
The -B can only carry 4 SDB II's. I mean comon even with 8 that's not even equal to a single Mk84.
What do they hope to do with the SDBs? Mess up ISIS's rose garden?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 02, 2016, 05:11:15 PM
The B is not replacing the A-10.
A Mk84 is too powerful and indiscriminate for most CAS and especially COIN. Collateral damage is not kosher anymore. The SDB II has a larger explosive filler than the Mk81 250 lb class bomb, and a smart multi purpose fragmentation/hollow-charge warhead to deal with both armor and personnel. And it is a precision weapon.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on May 02, 2016, 05:28:17 PM
A Mk84 is too powerful and indiscriminate for most CAS and especially COIN. Collateral damage is not kosher anymore. The SDB II has a larger explosive filler than the Mk81 250 lb class bomb, and a smart multi purpose fragmentation/hollow-charge warhead to deal with both armor and personnel. And it is a precision weapon.
I'll second that. The smaller the tool to complete the job, the better.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 02, 2016, 05:39:02 PM
We agree on some things at least. :)
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Serenity on May 02, 2016, 05:44:17 PM
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 02, 2016, 08:46:26 PM
And more fun! ... But you need to get close and personal. And how cheap it is depends on what the other guy is shooting back with. ;)
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Gman on May 03, 2016, 12:15:09 AM
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 03, 2016, 06:28:41 AM
No he did not "shoot down the F-35" if he did indeed "shoot something down" it was the Pentagon's defense acquisition system. That may very well be a legitimate criticism. Bureaucracies only grow bigger and more complex and expensive as their primary goal always has been and always will be to secure their own existence.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Gman on May 03, 2016, 11:25:08 AM
I didn't name the video. Just interesting to hear the comments he made, especially at the end. The procurement system is broken. Even if the F35 worked perfectly right NOW, it's 800+ aircraft behind in planned and promised deliveries, and has increased in cost by 200%. And that's the good news.
I hope this thing works...
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Vulcan on May 04, 2016, 12:10:56 AM
A Mk84 is too powerful and indiscriminate for most CAS and especially COIN. Collateral damage is not kosher anymore. The SDB II has a larger explosive filler than the Mk81 250 lb class bomb, and a smart multi purpose fragmentation/hollow-charge warhead to deal with both armor and personnel. And it is a precision weapon.
Mmmkay... I wanna see some ground guys opinion on this?
"Hey pilot guy, can use some smaller bombs on ISIS positions puhlease...."
Yeah right...
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: zack1234 on May 04, 2016, 01:28:20 AM
I didn't name the video. Just interesting to hear the comments he made, especially at the end. The procurement system is broken. Even if the F35 worked perfectly right NOW, it's 800+ aircraft behind in planned and promised deliveries, and has increased in cost by 200%. And that's the good news.
I hope this thing works...
The forthcoming Trade agreement with the EU will pay for it.
As I said two years ago the US wants it money back.
The trade agreement is not mentioned in the New Starwars film or James Bond film.
Or family guy :rofl
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 04, 2016, 09:56:06 AM
Mmmkay... I wanna see some ground guys opinion on this?
"Hey pilot guy, can use some smaller bombs on ISIS positions puhlease...."
Yeah right...
Sure. Let's ask the soldiers who are a couple of hundred feet from the enemy, perhaps in an urban environment with civilians nearby, if they want the CAS planes to drop 200 lbs precision munition or 2000 lbs free-fall bombs...
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 04, 2016, 09:58:35 AM
If they really want that 2000 lbs bomb, I still don't see the problem...
Sure. Let's ask the soldiers who are a couple of hundred feet from the enemy, perhaps in an urban environment with civilians nearby, if they want the CAS planes to drop 200 lbs precision munition or 2000 lbs free-fall bombs...
Every time the guys on the ground HAVE been asked, they've pretty universally said they want that CAS plane right down there in the weeds with them, loitering for hours, and tearing the toejam out of things with a really big gun.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Vulcan on May 04, 2016, 03:34:20 PM
Every time the guys on the ground HAVE been asked, they've pretty universally said they want that CAS plane right down there in the weeds with them, loitering for hours, and tearing the toejam out of things with a really big gun.
yup, GS is so rabidly pro the f-35 I'm pretty sure he has shares in Lockheed.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: RTR on May 04, 2016, 04:17:57 PM
Provided they get all the bugs worked out, and it's employed properly it might do ok.
As a strike fighter ( mudmover basically) it should perfrom adequately. Of course something else is going to have to fight a way in and out of the target area for it, and it ain't as stealthy as people think. It's not, nor was ever designed to be a full blown "Stealth" aircraft. It has some stealth aspects though.
I don't see much success with it as a CAS bird, more like a long range ( or high altitude) sniper. In a CAS role 180 rounds isn't going to do much in the way of persuasion.
It's not exactly a stellar air to air fighter. All it has going for it there is BVR (if that works), head to head it's gonna suck.
Can't run, can't fight, can't hide. It's a little bitty buff with some cool toys.
just my uneducated opinion. :)
RTR
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 04, 2016, 05:09:07 PM
... and it ain't as stealthy as people think. It's not, nor was ever designed to be a full blown "Stealth" aircraft. It has some stealth aspects though.
How stealthy do people think it is? The USAF has stated the F-35 is not as stealthy as the F-22, but more stealthy than the B-2. About the same as the F-117. It has the radar cross section of a metal golf ball.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 04, 2016, 05:12:06 PM
yup, GS is so rabidly pro the f-35 I'm pretty sure he has shares in Lockheed.
Sure, that's it. You got me. I'm defending the F-35 because you guys have such enormous influence on the F-35's future and Lockheed Martin's stock value... :rofl
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: FLOOB on May 05, 2016, 03:59:29 AM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: FLOOB on May 05, 2016, 09:03:30 AM
See Rules #2, #4
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: FLOOB on May 05, 2016, 09:24:57 AM
I'm joking btw.
Or am I?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: rabbidrabbit on May 05, 2016, 09:54:15 AM
As a strike fighter ( mudmover basically) it should perfrom adequately. Of course something else is going to have to fight a way in and out of the target area for it, and it ain't as stealthy as people think. It's not, nor was ever designed to be a full blown "Stealth" aircraft. It has some stealth aspects though.
...
Can't run, can't fight, can't hide. It's a little bitty buff with some cool toys.
That's kind of the big thing, here. One of the arguments for the F-35 is that the A-10 is a target in contested airspace. Yet so is the F-35; it's too slow and lacks maneuverability. Most of its stores are external, as well, which means getting any appreciable loadout is going to shoot what stealth it has all to hell.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 05, 2016, 11:53:48 AM
Again for the amnesiacs...
"The F-35 will not do close air support mission the same way the A-10 does. It will do it very differently. The A-10 was designed to be low, and slow, and close to the targets it was engaging, relatively speaking," Frank Kendall III, undersecretary of defense for acquisition, technology and logistics, told the Senate panel Tuesday. "We will not use the F-35 in the same way as the A-10.."
And I think some of you are overestimating the typical CAS loadouts of current platforms. In a full blown WWIII anti-armor role the A-10 would carry a lot of ord, but not for CAS. Typical loadout for A-10's in Afghanistan: 4xGBU-38 (500 lb bomb), Sniper XR targeting pod, 7x2.75" WP rockets, and 8xLUU-19 IR flares in an SUU-25 pod. Sometimes they add a couple of Mavericks or Hellfires. Very rarely does any conventional jet on CAS carry more than 2-4 bombs. With more ord conventional jets and the A-10 must sacrifice loiter time and maneuverability.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 05, 2016, 12:03:37 PM
In this vid a KC-135 refuels A-10s and F-16s over A-stan. Check out their loadouts.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Zimme83 on May 05, 2016, 01:07:40 PM
But still: If flying missions like the ones in A-stan there is no reason to have the F-35, it just a waste of money. A-10:s do the job better for a fraction of the cost. The question is how the F-35 will do in the CAS role against a capable enemy with first class air defence.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 05, 2016, 01:43:25 PM
We'll have to wait for the next big war to get the answer to that question. However, the A-10s typically carry four 500 lb bombs for CAS, and the F-16s in that video did the same plus two AMRAAMs. The F-35 can carry an equal weight in firepower both air-to-air and air-to-mud internally and stealthily.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Brooke on May 05, 2016, 04:55:56 PM
We'll have to wait for the next big war to get the answer to that question. However, the A-10s typically carry four 500 lb bombs for CAS, and the F-16s in that video did the same plus two AMRAAMs. The F-35 can carry an equal weight in firepower both air-to-air and air-to-mud internally and stealthily.
If you look in your video at 3:45 time mark, you will see the armament that you left out. ;)
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 05, 2016, 05:16:19 PM
Sure, the A-10 clearly has the most potent gun, but how relevant the gun will be in future CAS missions it in question. The F-35A also has a pretty big gun, though not as plentiful an ammo storage.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Brooke on May 05, 2016, 05:26:50 PM
Here are some vids of that particular ord in action:
https://youtu.be/_yMXTEowRpA?t=383
https://youtu.be/DaZ5stbVAlk?t=32
You can get pretty close with it:
https://youtu.be/llEWrL9ghyg?t=239
Some comments on what guys on the scene think of it:
https://youtu.be/12AGsn36Ass?t=78
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 05, 2016, 06:01:18 PM
The guys seem very exited and happy in this video too. ;)
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: Brooke on May 05, 2016, 06:46:08 PM
yes, but you don't want to be 100 yards from that one. :uhoh
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: wil3ur on May 05, 2016, 07:01:13 PM
The sound of that gun gives me a humongous chub
:rock
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 06, 2016, 09:22:29 AM
yes, but you don't want to be 100 yards from that one. :uhoh
You'd be fine as long as your in reasonable cover. The Mk 82 has a lethal radius of 30-40 yards. But you might want to cover your ears! The SDB II has about two-thirds the yield of the Mk 82 so it can be used closer to friendlies.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 06, 2016, 09:25:05 AM
The F-35A also has a pretty big gun, though not as plentiful an ammo storage.
Is that 2.8 seconds of continuous fire?
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 06, 2016, 09:56:39 AM
3.2 seconds. It's not a lot, but enough for two 90 round runs or perhaps three 60 round. The USAF seems intent on reinventing CAS for the future battlefield. We'll have to wait and see how that pans out.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 06, 2016, 10:05:24 AM
The F-16 has 4.6 seconds worth of 20 mm. And the A-10 a whopping 16.7 seconds. I think the larger caliber of the F-35's gun will make it more effective than the F-16 despite the shorter clip, but nothing will beat the A-10 in strafing... Ever.
Title: Re: Now THIS is the fight of the century
Post by: GScholz on May 06, 2016, 10:14:23 AM
It is interesting to note that LM initially planned to use a license produced version of the Mauser Bk-27 gun before settling on the GAU-22. It seems the Americans are embracing the European approach of larger calibre, but less ammo.