General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Zimme83 on May 14, 2016, 06:22:24 AM
Title: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 14, 2016, 06:22:24 AM
Turkish Cobra shot down by kurdish PKK fighters yesterday.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: DaveBB on May 14, 2016, 08:24:48 AM
Well, there goes two bright minds. What a waste.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Devil 505 on May 14, 2016, 04:50:35 PM
That was brutal. Crew did not have a chance.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 14, 2016, 05:12:56 PM
Effing communists! :mad:
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 14, 2016, 05:19:02 PM
Edit: Ok i delete this, it would derail the thread for sure..
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Gman on May 14, 2016, 09:24:29 PM
Looks like an SA16/18 Gimlet or the Chinese copy, QW-2. Could be a Grom too perhaps.
Brutal, I wonder why the Cobras don't have that whizzy missile defense system, or if it did, why it didn't work. The Gimlet/QW2 isn't the most current missile, by far, yet was pretty effective here, and in other vids too. The operator didn't elevate the missile tube like he's supposed to either before firing, had it pointed directly at the target, which is exactly how you're not supposed to do it.
There are so many different active and passive anti-IR/Sam systems out there now too, missile approach warning systems too. Sure are a lot of vids on YT and elsewhere showing helos and low alt planes getting smucked out of the sky though, mostly in Libya, Syria, and Ukraine, but elsewhere too. I've never seen one where the missile was spoofed - maybe they just don't upload those films.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Squire on May 14, 2016, 11:26:33 PM
You would have thought they would have some decoys on board but maybe not. Perhaps they did but could not deploy them in time. Choppers are configured differently with each nation.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 05:04:27 AM
My guess is that they were caught off guard and that they didn't expected SAM:s to be present at the scene.
Compare to Russian Hind:s in Syria, a cappy video and with no sign of SAM.s fired despite the title but it still give a good view of their tactic over the combat area.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Serenity on May 15, 2016, 11:48:57 AM
Looks like an SA16/18 Gimlet or the Chinese copy, QW-2. Could be a Grom too perhaps.
Brutal, I wonder why the Cobras don't have that whizzy missile defense system, or if it did, why it didn't work. The Gimlet/QW2 isn't the most current missile, by far, yet was pretty effective here, and in other vids too. The operator didn't elevate the missile tube like he's supposed to either before firing, had it pointed directly at the target, which is exactly how you're not supposed to do it.
There are so many different active and passive anti-IR/Sam systems out there now too, missile approach warning systems too. Sure are a lot of vids on YT and elsewhere showing helos and low alt planes getting smucked out of the sky though, mostly in Libya, Syria, and Ukraine, but elsewhere too. I've never seen one where the missile was spoofed - maybe they just don't upload those films.
My guess is, those spoofing systems are expensive and high maintenance. It wouldn't surprise me if most nations either gave up on maintaining the systems because they didn't find them cost effective, or if they're under-maintained and as a result often don't work.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: LCADolby on May 15, 2016, 12:22:56 PM
Wow, it just shows how vulnerable helicopters can be. I'm guessing that the Cobra the Turks use are aging models, lacking the equipment to detect the launch.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 12:30:22 PM
55 AH-1F (modernized) and 6 AH-1W according to Wiki, about to be replaced by the T-129.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Serenity on May 15, 2016, 12:47:56 PM
It's funny, I used to be able to watch videos like this with impunity, but lately, they really give me a sick feeling in my stomach...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Gman on May 15, 2016, 01:11:38 PM
It's amazing how effective these little things are. Seriously, the tube/launcher is pretty small, when you see the actual missile inside of it, it's this slender little thing that doesn't look like much at all. So fast too, it's hard to judge range from a video, but that helo was a good ways off, and that missile was there in an eyeblink. Powerful charge as well, chopped the tail structure right off. Again, when you see the rocket itself up close, it's incredible power and capability is hard to believe. Like I said, this is a pretty old tech missile too, nearly 30 years old that launcher/missile could have been. Imagine the new tech stuff, and what's to come shortly...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: mechanic on May 15, 2016, 01:14:42 PM
In the near future when all war is fought with unmanned drones it will become a spectator sport like no other
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 02:00:42 PM
A little curious about why the camera guy is counting. He starts when the shooter arms the missile and he fired at 15...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 02:17:36 PM
The Igla has a gas cooled IR seeker. When he arms it it a gas canister starts cooling the seeker unit. It must do so for a number of seconds before launch. The noise you hear is the BCU (battery coolant unit) cooling the seeker to below -200 C and powering up the missile.
The AH-1 was an almost perfect target. Range was perfect at 1 - 2 km. Flying slow and low, but not even trying to use the terrain. That's like begging to be shot down.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 02:26:47 PM
I guessed on something like that. But it seems like they know what they are doing and that they have been trained to use the missile. Question is were.. PKK has not used SAM:s before, (prob why the Cobra flew like it did...)
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 02:43:31 PM
The PKK has been using a small number of Strela and Igla missiles since the mid-'90s trained by well paid ex-Soviet instructors. In 1997 they shot down two Turkish helicopters using MANPADs. One of them a Cobra like this one.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 03:05:43 PM
In iraq yes, i haven't found any sign of them using Manpads inside Turkey.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 03:14:04 PM
The PKK has always operated in the border area between Turkey, Iraq and Syria. This shoot down was in the Hakkari province which is on the border with Iraq.
I found out about the 1997 downings after i wrote that so i give you right on that, but still no evidence of them using them inside Turkey before as i have found. (or after 1997).
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 03:49:37 PM
The was a ceasefire between 1999 and 2004, and after that the PKK military faction were busy in northern Iraq, PKK mostly just doing protests and terrorism in Turkey. Last summer the PKK mounted the first real military action against Turkey since the '90s.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 03:50:44 PM
It was not the PKK that flushed the peace process down the drain last year..
But yes - i know about the conflict but it still not the point. As far as i know they have not used SAM:s in Turkey before. It is a serious escalation of the conflict and some speculates that Russia is providing them with manpads, although there is no evidence for it and there are more than one way they could have get the weapon from ex Syria or Iraq.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 03:54:07 PM
Irrelevant. There should be no peace with such people.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 03:56:49 PM
Irrelevant. There should be no peace with such people.
And who are "such people"..?
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 04:00:18 PM
See Rule #14
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 04:02:06 PM
jeez.... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 04:09:53 PM
Do you support them?
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 15, 2016, 04:12:24 PM
I just say that the conflict is slightly more complicated than you seem to believe. But it is a topic that we are not allowed to debate here.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 15, 2016, 04:14:31 PM
The conflict is complicated, but I would never support someone with that kind of ideology no matter how just their fight may be.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Randall172 on May 15, 2016, 10:23:29 PM
Allah AKBAR!
gotta be honest this was awesome
question though
I know that some american missiles use a sort of metal chain that a small charge expands to slice off parts it hits.
do the Russians use a clever method, other than just a large explosive charge.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 16, 2016, 06:46:16 AM
A pre-fragment warhead? Yes it has. Pretty much all anti-aircraft missiles have such warheads.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: DaveBB on May 16, 2016, 10:15:24 AM
It was only a couple years ago (or less) that an infamous video of a modern Hind flown by the Russians was shot down. This was during the invasion of the Ukraine. There was video both from the inside of the helo (either the pilot or gunner's HUD recorder) and of the MANPAD team that shot them down. From launch to catastrophic failure of the helo is only about 3 seconds. Not much time to react.
The last A-10 lost in combat was shot down by a MANPAD over Baghdad. The A-10 may have been a resilient plane against shrapnel from Soviet era SAMs, but these little MANPADs are extremely lethal.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 16, 2016, 04:02:23 PM
Blast are also direced so it creates a shot gun effect.
But the blast range is not that big, missile can detonate fairly Close and still not inflict enough damage, From Syria: Mi-8 has a Close call, that Missile is really Close but helo flies away:
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Serenity on May 16, 2016, 04:12:41 PM
See Rule #6
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 16, 2016, 04:18:47 PM
Probably because they lived there from the beginning, some of the rebel hold areas are only a few miles across and it doesnt matter too much were the kids are, the barrel bombs land were they land..
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 16, 2016, 04:21:29 PM
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 16, 2016, 04:25:09 PM
And the camera is prob not were the guys firing the missile are. its impossible to say if they are Close or not. But most likely are they there because they have nowere else to go sadly.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Gman on May 17, 2016, 10:46:03 AM
Gscholz and I had another thread going a couple years ago regarding Hinds surviving manpads hits - the ratio if very much in the Hinds favor so far as videos out there, there are only 1 or 2 out there of them going down from manpads, while there are many, many of them surviving.
Manpads are very deadly, and simple - the crew in the OP video remembered to count down the seeker cooling, but completely forgot to super elevate the tube just prior to hitting the launch trigger. It didn't matter, it still worked, even with a major mistake in the firing cycle. That says quite a bit on its own.
These things are just going to get more lethal - as I said, this particular weapon is 30+ years old most likely. Newer seekers, rocket motors (low to no smoke and much faster acceleration), and especially better warheads - nothing that flies is truly safe. Of course, countermeasure systems have come a long way, vs both radar and IR sams, and AAA detection systems too.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 17, 2016, 03:56:35 PM
The Hind has a lot of armor, if it can stop a .50 cal round it should be able to withstand shrapnel from a Missile pretty good as well. The Hind is like a flying APC. it's not the most modern attack helo but it sure can take a lot of beating.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 17, 2016, 10:00:46 PM
The kill vehicle of older SAM systems typically miss the target by several yards relying on fragmentation damage to do the job. The Hind only has a few vulnerable areas to the kind of light fragmentation a MANPAD can produce, mainly the rotors. Of all the videos I've seen on Hinds getting shot by MANPADs I think only one went down. Most of the videos showing Hinds getting blown out of the sky actually show target drones made to look like Hinds. Modern MANPADs are much more accurate, and more likely to score a direct hit. While a heavily armored gunship like the Hind can handle fragmentation damage, no realistic amount of armor will stop a 20 lb supersonic projectile.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 18, 2016, 12:36:39 AM
Adding to Turkish military concerns is the apparent failure of the helicopter’s defense system, said analyst Metehan Demir, a former Turkish military pilot.
"The downed helicopter was not alone during the operation," Demir said. "There was another helicopter just behind the helicopter, and this helicopter was not warned by the defense system that the missile was coming. This is also very strange, which means it looks like the system was very new used by the PKK, and there could be more similar missiles in the hands of the PKK."
That's an interesting quote..
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 18, 2016, 03:18:14 AM
It was an Igla, so we're talking about a 20-30 year old system. However, small IR missiles are very difficult to pick up regardless. We are quickly entering into an era where the survivability of slow, low flying aircraft is questionable. Even in low intensity conflicts against irregular forces. The days when you could shove 20 guys into a Chinook and fly them into combat are most certainly over.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Serenity on May 18, 2016, 10:14:34 AM
If you ever get a look at the gripe sheet for American aircraft... Even here in the military capital of the world, we're in a constant uphill battle to keep essential equipment running in the aircraft. I would bet my left nut that IF that aircraft was equipped with something that could have provided a warning, it was broken that day...
We can't even keep our oxygen system working flawlessly, I'd bet anti-SAM stuff is even more finnicky...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 18, 2016, 10:32:29 AM
I doubt that a missile warning would have changed the outcome, the missile flew for like 3 seconds, there was no time for the crew to do anything.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 18, 2016, 12:46:17 PM
Anti-MANPAD systems are typically fully automatic due to the short engagement time.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: kilo2 on May 18, 2016, 12:48:04 PM
Looks like an SA16/18 Gimlet or the Chinese copy, QW-2. Could be a Grom too perhaps.
Brutal, I wonder why the Cobras don't have that whizzy missile defense system, or if it did, why it didn't work. The Gimlet/QW2 isn't the most current missile, by far, yet was pretty effective here, and in other vids too. The operator didn't elevate the missile tube like he's supposed to either before firing, had it pointed directly at the target, which is exactly how you're not supposed to do it.
There are so many different active and passive anti-IR/Sam systems out there now too, missile approach warning systems too. Sure are a lot of vids on YT and elsewhere showing helos and low alt planes getting smucked out of the sky though, mostly in Libya, Syria, and Ukraine, but elsewhere too. I've never seen one where the missile was spoofed - maybe they just don't upload those films.
Nope. Totally passive seeker. The first warning would be the pilots or a sensor system spotting the actual missile in flight a few seconds away.
That sucks. No time to react.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 18, 2016, 01:02:45 PM
A sensor would typically pick up the rocket motor's heat plume, but we're still talking about 10 seconds or less before interception at the missile's longest range.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: DaveBB on May 18, 2016, 06:40:51 PM
Here are the two videos I was referring to of the MI-24 shot down over the Ukraine. One is from the interior of the Hind, the other is from the MANPAD team. This definitely illustrates how quick and lethal they are
Interior:
Exterior:
On second thought, I believe these are two separate MI-24 shoot downs.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 18, 2016, 06:58:32 PM
They are. The Armenian Hind is the only one I've seen video of being shot down by a MANPAD. The Ukrainian may have been hit by a MANPAD, but the Russian backed secessionists also possess larger SAM systems and AAA.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Gman on May 18, 2016, 08:25:17 PM
Like I said earlier, last year Gscholz and I had a thread with piles of vids of MI24s taking hits and surviving, and only did I ever find 1, the above, showing a clean kill with a Manpads vs the Hind.
Read the stuff I linked earlier about missile approach warning and other defensive systems those of you asking about it - passive IR seekers missiles until recently have been a weapon that wasn't detectable really other than visually, but tech now, can detect them under many conditions, not all unfortunately, and there is a pile of different IR passive and active ECM systems used to defeat the incoming IR round. Everything from IR jammers to systems that use an active laser to flash the seeker and screw it up.
As seen from this video in the OP, the system has very, very little time to react - I figured it would have such a defensive system, as Serenity and others have said before, stuff breaks, often, or just fails to work as optimally as it does in the lab or in tests/etc. 2 or 3 seconds isn't much time for any kind of a defensive system to work - even just an alert, no pilot could have reacted quickly enough to pop out flares or activate a system manually there, just not enough time. Again, 30+ year old system too, the missile used. Imagine how much more lethal the newer stuff is, and near future manpads weapons. Pretty dangerous vs any time of low flying aircraft, but especially the helos and prop planes down low.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: save on May 19, 2016, 04:08:42 AM
in Afganistan conflict Mi-24 pilots reported, given time enough, should turn into the missile path, because the front is the best armoured part of the airframe. Missiles nowadays are better, faster and give a much better chance of downing instead of hurting the helicopter.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 19, 2016, 04:30:59 AM
The Russians in A-stan also developed the tactic to use the terrain for cover and pop flares and were able to handle the threat from Stingers rather well, better than what is common beliefs. Manpads is no wonder weapon but adaption is needed to minimize the threat.
But the cobra flew like it was on an exercise...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Mister Fork on May 19, 2016, 02:47:43 PM
What I don't understand, why destroy an aircraft and the pilots? Would it be better to cripple a helicopter/plane, force it to crash land, and injure the crew? That takes waaaay more resources to deal with than someone who is just dead and the aircraft just a smoking ruin. The goal of any portable MANPAD should be to damage an aircraft... no?
Typical Russian hammer approach to weapons.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 19, 2016, 02:55:28 PM
I would say no, damage the plane beyond repair should be priority since they are very expensive and takes time to replace. Air crew are also very valuable and hard to replace so you want them out definitely. For other weapon systems wounding rather than killing is preferable since an injured grunt need a lot more resources than a dead one.
But for air crafts first priority is to make sure neither them or the crew ever flies again, how you do it is secondary.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 19, 2016, 02:56:17 PM
Like I said earlier, last year Gscholz and I had a thread with piles of vids of MI24s taking hits and surviving, and only did I ever find 1, the above, showing a clean kill with a Manpads vs the Hind.
Read the stuff I linked earlier about missile approach warning and other defensive systems those of you asking about it - passive IR seekers missiles until recently have been a weapon that wasn't detectable really other than visually, but tech now, can detect them under many conditions, not all unfortunately, and there is a pile of different IR passive and active ECM systems used to defeat the incoming IR round. Everything from IR jammers to systems that use an active laser to flash the seeker and screw it up.
As seen from this video in the OP, the system has very, very little time to react - I figured it would have such a defensive system, as Serenity and others have said before, stuff breaks, often, or just fails to work as optimally as it does in the lab or in tests/etc. 2 or 3 seconds isn't much time for any kind of a defensive system to work - even just an alert, no pilot could have reacted quickly enough to pop out flares or activate a system manually there, just not enough time. Again, 30+ year old system too, the missile used. Imagine how much more lethal the newer stuff is, and near future manpads weapons. Pretty dangerous vs any time of low flying aircraft, but especially the helos and prop planes down low.
I remember that thread. Was pretty good if memory serves me. The newest MANPAD in Russian service is the Verba. Essentially an upgraded Igla with a three separate optical seekers to defeat flares and lasers. To spoof it you'd have to decoy/jam/blind the missile in the low-IR, medium-IR and ultraviolet spectrum at the same time.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Mister Fork on May 19, 2016, 05:22:48 PM
To spoof it you'd have to decoy/jam/blind the missile in the low-IR, medium-IR and ultraviolet spectrum at the same time.
If memory serves me correct, the operator also has the option to select which mode to use - and there are also optional radar units you can plug the Verba it into from vehicle mounted arrays. Meaning it has optional sources for radar info, tracking, locking, and engagement.
Wouldn't want to be a slow in a chopper against one of those.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Serenity on May 19, 2016, 07:37:29 PM
What I don't understand, why destroy an aircraft and the pilots? Would it be better to cripple a helicopter/plane, force it to crash land, and injure the crew? That takes waaaay more resources to deal with than someone who is just dead and the aircraft just a smoking ruin. The goal of any portable MANPAD should be to damage an aircraft... no?
Typical Russian hammer approach to weapons.
How? Damaging an aircraft without destroying it is like trying to manufacture a precision nuke...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Oldman731 on May 20, 2016, 07:31:58 AM
A half mile lethal fallout range isn't exactly precision lol.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Vudu15 on May 20, 2016, 08:45:59 PM
Those anti radar systems are super expensive most countries save us and our allies don't have them. Same goes for detection. They may not have even they were being engaged/not enough time for counter measures. Also that's and older cobra single engine dual rotor. There are some things US helos use but they wouldn't have saved you from that at that range and time to react. Speed and use of terrain would have helped them but trying to support ground guys in hill like that just gears man pads to make good shots. Turks gotta pay the troll to fight the Kurds.
Sent from my XT1058 using Tapatalk
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Rich46yo on May 22, 2016, 02:07:06 PM
Anyone ID the MANPAD? I imagine it must be a fairly modern Russian Bloc and that since the Russians are still pissed over Losing that Jabo to the Turks they are giving the Kurds some good stuff. I didnt notice any counter measures used by the chopper. Am I correct? This is certainly not an old system being used here.
It sucks to be Low and slow in the modern battle air space dont it?
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: GScholz on May 22, 2016, 02:13:37 PM
9K38 Igla
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K38_Igla
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 22, 2016, 03:16:26 PM
It's a SA-18, they are rather common in the area, they have been used by rebels against the Syrian Airforce on several occasions. It's impossible to say how they got it.
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Vulcan on May 23, 2016, 01:36:23 AM
I would say no, damage the plane beyond repair should be priority since they are very expensive and takes time to replace. Air crew are also very valuable and hard to replace so you want them out definitely. For other weapon systems wounding rather than killing is preferable since an injured grunt need a lot more resources than a dead one.
But for air crafts first priority is to make sure neither them or the crew ever flies again, how you do it is secondary.
NM sorry read that wrong :)
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Zimme83 on May 23, 2016, 01:47:54 AM
?
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: save on May 24, 2016, 05:58:17 AM
Dead pilots recover much more slowly than wounded ones...
Title: Re: AH-1 Cobra downed by manpad
Post by: Mister Fork on May 25, 2016, 08:24:39 AM
Dead pilots recover much more slowly than wounded ones...
If it were my guys getting lit up by an enemy helicopter, I'd want them completely dead.
War is cruel. I'd take the death of an enemy helo crew over giving them a chance to escape with damage, or crash and leave me a helo that I can do nothing with, and a crew that can enter the fight again.