Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: mikev on May 15, 2016, 12:31:18 AM
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this is for sure the next step. i constantly lose on the merge with no idea how to turn it into an advantage. next is what to do when they are on my 6 .sure i can turn and do this and that but i very rarely gain an advantage for a shot. yes i have read all the books but it is all Greek to me.
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ok. I want to break down what you posted into two VERY separate situations.
The merge is easy. You can choose to turn up, go straight, turn flat or turn down. The choice is decided by the plane type you are in, the plane you are fighting and your relative E states. I prefer if I can to go up. It allows me to store energy. If I am in the merge with low E I prefer to go level and extend. If all else fails I go low. For me turning low is a last resort. It means I am defensive and I am looking for an escape. I go low 5% of the time.......NEVER (almost never) go low on the merge. Only go low if you need to defend (I read that as get the F%^# out of there)
If you see me online (FESS) give me a yell and we can go the the DA / Training arena and work some options that will keep you in the fight longer.
THE 6 DEFENCE - - - oh boy. This is a tough one. IF they are really on you then there is little more you can do other then turn / roll as best you can. Use your throttle - it is a control that few people use enough and it just may be able to force a situation, especially if the enemy is hauling ass. But, simple rule is to avoid letting them saddle up on your 6. Even the best of the best get hammered in that situation. The truth is, they usually only get in that spot 1 out of 200 fights. They learn the merge properly and remember (this is REALLY important) it is appropriate on the merge to just keep going and get the hell outta Dodge.....
Again, I am FESS in game. If you see me just holler up and I will do what I can to help. There are also very talented trainers in game, reach out to them and they will be able to help you.
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mikev, are you talking about a clean duel or the main arena?
there is a big difference and the situation in the MA is much less certain (meaning a lot more interesting). Some ways to react which are duel winners will get you killed in the MA, especially if this is not an isolated 1 on 1.
Defensively, once the enemy is on your 6 and the speed differences is small, i.e. he is saddled up rather than booming through, the situation is desperate. There are basically 3 general possibilities:
1. drag him into a slow maneuvering fight.
2. try to make him overshoot.
3. try to survive long enough in a dive to pull away.
1. This may work if you have a small maneuverable plane, like Brew, Zeke, ki43, etc and he is in some heavy wingloaded monster. You need a combinaton of roll and a hard pull to survive his inevitable shot opportunity and then slow down into a turn fight.
2. This is a better option if you are in a high wingloaded plane. You must have some good speed to start with - start the reversal in a dive if you feel you are not fast enough. Roll to get his wings missaligned with yours (easily done in a good rolling plane) , chop the throttle and pull hard. You can pull while adding some roll and rudder into the turn for an increased effect. Now watch what he does. If het tries to hang on, pull him into a scissors fight.
3. This may work if you are in a late war monster and he is in some slow plane, or one that has issues at very high speeds (and you are not). You go into a dive and roll a lot. if you get more than 90 advantage in the roll pull a small jink to throw off his aim. Hopefully you will survive long enough to pull ahead or make him break off due to excess speed for his airframe.
Something else that you can use if you are low is the terrain. He has to lead you to get the shot. Pointing a head of your nose while you are in a dive means that he is in a steeper dive and with his excess speed he runs the risk of running into the ground. Similar principle works when there is a mountain side next to you - always break into the wall.
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Magic if you see me online I'm happy to help you in the TA or DA with the merge
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I'll help you too Magic, if you see me online remind me. I do enjoy your videos, watched every one. One thing you need to learn about is AoT, how to increase it and everyting to do with relative turning circles. That would improve your flying a lot.
Best and fastest way to work on your merges is to duel as much as you can and ask / watch what other people do.
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Mike, there are a couple of defense maneuvers I'd like to show you. I actually have one recorded on YouTube.
http://youtu.be/YAi_TRAV4E8
The defensive loaded roll.
If we could get to the TA, we could practice this maneuver over and over. It takes some practice and repitition, but it will greatly enhance your defense at all levels and make you a better pilot. Counterpunching is part of the game. A good 30% of my kills are from performing maneuvers similar to what you see in the film. This is the most simplist form of the loaded roll.
As far as the merge goes. It takes E awareness and you have to understand the plane you are flying with and the plane you flying with. Some planes like the spit16 or ki84 can pull incredibly good emmilman's and can do 3 in a row if you hold your E right. Planes with better rollrates are better for direct Emilmans because changing direction with roll rates at the top is very important. Planes like the F4U or P51 are better in a spiral climb merge so they dont lose E changing directions. The key to the emilman is to either get on top of them in combat, or to get inside theirs and climb up their 6 for a kill. Watch this 1v1 with skyyr and I, and really watch how we utilize the merge.
http://youtu.be/bdfF0kl-z_A
Hopefully this will help you a bit!
:salute
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Ha lots of good replies. as most of you may know i fly the spits. in the MA it is not uncommon for me to have 3 4 6 or 20 on my 6 . when that happens its my own fault because i am aggressive but the 2 on 2 ,3 on 3 evenly match situations where i am frustrated. most of my merges end up right back where they started as we both turn and again are head to head. unless the other guy makes a huge mistake (and not many do) i am usually on the wrong end of the merge.
as for planes on my 6 i do a lot of stick stirs, barrel roll defense and scissors. what ends up happening is most of the time its like i have a string holding the other guy behind me.
all in all my flying has improved but these areas are holding me back. i just am not thinking like a pilot when the need comes.
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Do you watch your films from the cockpit of the other plane on the merge and when they are on your 6? That might help you see if you present them with problems or opportunities.
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Try to anticipate your opponent's move right after the merge, or as he's closing in on you for a lead shot. A lot of times the very next move I make after these instances is when I gain the upper hand. I'll usually wait until they're 800 away, then change my course ever so slightly to ruin their gun solution, and then reverse or roll on top of them for a shot. One of my favorite moments in the past few months was when some well-known loudmouth in a Pony came in at my 6 in a shallow dive, and opened up his guns at 600. I had slightly changed course at 800 so every round missed, even though it was a pretty sight. In the same moment, I pulled up ever so slightly and rolled right inverted, figuring he'd head down to the right away from a mountain in his dive, and just as his canopy came into view I squeezed off a burst (while I was still inverted) into his cockpit that killed him instantly. His rage messages were quite a lot of fun.
Also, be aware, you're in a Spit so it doesn't take much to kill you. I've been flying corsairs recently, and they are waaaay more tough than a spit, and can handle really well. I went back to a spit after a few days in a corsair and it felt like I was flying a plane made out of balsa wood and tissue paper.
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Ha lots of good replies. as most of you may know i fly the spits. in the MA it is not uncommon for me to have 3 4 6 or 20 on my 6 . when that happens its my own fault because i am aggressive but the 2 on 2 ,3 on 3 evenly match situations where i am frustrated. most of my merges end up right back where they started as we both turn and again are head to head. unless the other guy makes a huge mistake (and not many do) i am usually on the wrong end of the merge.
as for planes on my 6 i do a lot of stick stirs, barrel roll defense and scissors. what ends up happening is most of the time its like i have a string holding the other guy behind me.
all in all my flying has improved but these areas are holding me back. i just am not thinking like a pilot when the need comes.
In the defensive moves, you being in a spit, are going to be a bit tougher due to the spit holding E so well. If you do a scissor in the spit and I do one in a hog, given the same enemy, I would be able to slow faster and cause an over shoot much easier. Your plane holding the E so much better gives the enemy time to recognize your slowing and match your speed to keep you out front longer and get that one shot he needs to knock a wing off your plane.
Chop your throttle and hard rudder to slow as fast as you can take the shot, firewall the throttle get your nose down a bit and build your speed again.
As for the merge, there are so many variables that you really cant say "do this when they do that". Know the basics. Ponies, 190s, tiffies and so on are more than likely going to Bnz, or at least not turn hard on you. See which way they go and imagine the circle they need to get back... picture a big one, and then fly to where they are going to be. After a pass of two you should be able to plan where you will be in a position for either a crossing shot, or to saddle up on there six and pick them apart.
For the turners, as you said they get around fast and you end up nose to nose again, plan for them to do that, but make your circl bigger and so NOT be nose to nose with them. Be above and or off to one side. Do the same on the second merge. They have now burned a bunch of E trying to get around quick, and you have saved E by NOT trying to get around quick, and in your spit you should be able to handle most plane having saved all that E. Don't push the fight, let it come to you.... unless your on the deck with 8 guys on you then HO them all until its time to up a new plane :)
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The merge is easy. You can choose to turn up, go straight, turn flat or turn down. The choice is decided by the plane type you are in, the plane you are fighting and your relative E states. I prefer if I can to go up. It allows me to store energy. If I am in the merge with low E I prefer to go level and extend. If all else fails I go low. For me turning low is a last resort. It means I am defensive and I am looking for an escape.
The merge is arguably the most important part of ACM....not to be taken lightly and definitely not as simple as you make it out to be.
I'm not good at merging and I win 90% of my 1v1s just from getting the advantage from the merge.....90% of my losses are from not getting the advantage from the merge.
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Junky is 100% correct IMO. Remember SKyyr? He won many duels, lost some too, but sure surprised an awful lot of people, myself included, I went 1-1 with him, then he won the next 3 in a row, all because he had the merge in this game down pat. I mean absolutely needle sharp precision with how to get on top in various aircraft in the merge - once people started to figure this out with him, and just matched his move in the merge, then it became a pretty even contest again with average joes like me vs someone with a perfect merge much of the time. Just my opinion.
Anyhow, there is one mistake I see guys often make when they are all about picking this stuff up - they don't pull hard enough. I realize there are times when pulling too hard is a bad thing and wastes E, but once you commit to using your turn performance - use it, ALL of it. So many times I see that, guys make break turns, or go for a shot, but only 1/2 bellybutton (I actually typed bellybutton) it, instead of reefing all the way to black out or stall/etc and just riding that knife edge of performance. Again, just my opinion, but I observe this every time I fly, and think to myself "all he had to do was pull harder and he would have got the shot/not died/etc/etc." So, Mikev, if you're in a Spit especially, if you go for a turn fight, TURN, as hard as you can if it'll get you that shot or make that evasion successful. The trick I guess is knowing when to conserve a bit of E and not yank if you don't have to, but IMO, by defaulting to pulling hard you'll be better off and get more shots/evasions and that instinct/knowledge of when to ease off will come in time on its own.
I only say this as I've watched some films recently and that's the immediate thing I see, not pulling hard enough when committing to a turn for whatever reason in whatever dimension.
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Timing...timing....timing.
Reversals are all about timing....too soon they correct their flight path to get another shot, too late and you get shot.
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well had a miserable day today, i swear some days i cant hit a thing and strange things keep happening. missed every shot i had then strange things happen like a collision and im dead instantly. or i was lining up on a target and just before i shoot the screen downsized like whatttttttt. haha. i did notice when i pulled harder on the stick riding a darker tunnel helped but still everybody managed to take care of me and my spit with ease.
if anybody is interested i will be in the TA today around 9 pm cst till 10.
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Magic I watched you for a couple of hours yesterday...I see what you need to do...you must be more aggressive with your maneuvers...now...don't take that as snap the wings off your spit 8 kinda thing...but make it groan a little...like when you were merging with that LA...chop throttle on the merge...turn inside of him, latch on and he cant get away...now be sure to try to judge his E state before you try that particular merge, because he could possible rope you and then summarily kill you lol...but h :rocke was slow...a slow LA is a dead LA and I think you and the other guy were both going be dead if I would have set and watched very much longer....I know you've heard it over and over but throttle control is key to winning any engagement...Violator for example WILL make you overshoot if your not careful...Dolby same way....2cmex same way...
I know you've heard this many times over too...if you see me or any of my squad on...we love to take in newer pilots and help them with the tricks of the trade... :rock
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While I am no ace nor a current player, i've always found (and this is how I was taught) is to not let them get on your six as once they are there it's just a crap shoot if you live or not. Far as merges go everyone has said everything better than I could and covered everything, but again mentioning it the way I was taught to merge was to have as little vertical and horizontal separation from the enemy as possible to make it harder for them to turn inside you.
This is much easier to do in duels obviously where there are cold first merges, but the idea is the same everywhere just have to tweak it a bit as to not catch a 20mm hizooka in the nose trying to cheese too tight inside a hurri in the MA etc
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Magic I watched you for a couple of hours yesterday...I see what you need to do...you must be more aggressive with your maneuvers...now...don't take that as snap the wings off your spit 8 kinda thing...but make it groan a little...like when you were merging with that LA...chop throttle on the merge...turn inside of him, latch on and he cant get away...now be sure to try to judge his E state before you try that particular merge, because he could possible rope you and then summarily kill you lol...but h :rocke was slow...a slow LA is a dead LA and I think you and the other guy were both going be dead if I would have set and watched very much longer....I know you've heard it over and over but throttle control is key to winning any engagement...Violator for example WILL make you overshoot if your not careful...Dolby same way....2cmex same way...
LOL chased a lot of LA s yesterday. but my aim was horrible. somedays i think im flying blind its so bad. i defiantly need to work on my deflection shots but i can do that anytime.
there were time i got away last night but there were times i was owned as well. the fun part for me is when i have 6 or 8 on my 6 and when i look back all i see is red . when i draw that much attention it means the rest of you guys can sit and pick and choose.not so good for me but a good chance for the rest to pick them off and clear the air of cons. thats 1 reason i like the spits. they may be made of paper but you can turn and dink the guys on your 6 and make it pretty hard to tag you. my only problem is i never get the chance to give back any.
I know you've heard this many times over too...if you see me or any of my squad on...we love to take in newer pilots and help them with the tricks of the trade... :rock
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Magic, regarding deflection shooting, have a look at these (Click on the covers to download). Really worthwhile imho:-
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/BagtheHunCover.jpg) (http://www.4shared.com/document/SSRZ0ds3/Bag_the_Hun__RAF_Gunnery_Manua.html)
Useful YouTube video based on Bag the Hun:-
http://www.youtube.com/embed/zsIz2bIBLwM (http://www.youtube.com/embed/zsIz2bIBLwM)
The German equivalent:-
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/SchiessfibelCover.jpg) (http://www.4shared.com/document/QCAOypFW/Schiessfibel.html)
No translation for the above but the picture are useful none-the-less.
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Regarding your flying I notice you often turn one way which causes, as FLS says, your opponents problems only for you to inexplicably reverse your turn and fly once again right in front of them (making an opportunity for them instead!). I think you are thinking to jink perhaps but you shouldn't be doing that at those relative distances. Also as many have said your Spixteen can cleanly out-turn most of the planeset but not if you don't turn hard and more importantly smart.
So you said you read some manuals but you found them unuseful. Try this as a first step. It is a simplification but I think it will help you think about turning. If you can, print out the following picture:-
(http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/k526/rwrk2/CircleFlowadvanced.jpg)
As the drawing is now it depicts two aircraft flat turning from above in a nose-to-tail or two-circle (as it's often refered to) turn fight. In reality this kind of turn fight usually degrades into both aircraft on diferent sides of the same circle, chasing each other's tails. This is why the term two-circle fight is a bit misleading. After the merge both aircraft turn to their right. As you can see, the top aircraft's flightpath has lead to him getting his nose on first, he has won this kind of turn fight because, even though his circle is wider (his radius is larger) his turn rate (degress per second) is faster. He's got around his turn at a quicker rater than the flightpath of the bottom aircraft and in this format this counts! The bottom aircraft has a tighter radius but a poorer turn rate (less degrees per second). This brings us to the first axiom of the turn fight:
In a nose-to-tail turn fight, the aircraft turning at the fastest rate (making the most degrees per second) prevails.
Now take this same piece of paper and fold the page across the horizontal line and hold it up against a window so you can still see both circles. Now the relative turns are in a nose-to-nose (often refered to as a one-circle) turn fight configuration. For example in a merge when two aircraft pass and both pull an Immelmann turn. In this configuration you can see the inverse to the nose-to-tail turn fight: the plane with the tighter circle has got his guns on first, even though his turn rate is slower.
This brings us to the second axiom of the turn fight:
In a nose-to-nose turn fight, the aircraft turning the tighter circle, prevails.
The drawing's a bit contrived and childish. In reality the radii would vary as well, but it serves to illustrate that identical flightpaths (it's the same drawing after all!), in different arrangements, give completely different outcomes.
With WWII aircraft your best turn rate is refered to as instantaneous corner speed which in my favourite aircraft the Ki-84 for instance is 227 m.p.h. It's called instantaneous because I can't sustain that rate for very long! We just don't have the thrust. I can do it in a descending helix but this is still an overall degredation of my energy state. However all things in ACM are relative, energy, angles, turn rate and radius. The smart way to turn is to understand who has at any given moment a better rate and / or radius. There is indeed a circumstance when both might be happening simultaneously.
Now let's throw in another component: gravity. Now imagine the relative turns are not done in the flat but in a more upright plane (same piece of paper but held against the window instead of placed on your desk), same business still applies and here comes the famous manoeuvring egg business. At the top of a loop an aircraft's radius is always tighter than at the bottom because gravity works with you. At the bottom of the loop the opposite is true, you have to fight against gravity. So as an application 101 - if you're in a nose-to-nose turn fight with you on the top and your opponent on the bottom, who will in general cut inside the other's turn? Many sticks even reduce power here to amplify this.
A lot to take in, sorry for that. Just try to have a think about it. 'Oooooooh' moment quite likely. Then when you look at Violator's first video for example the mechanics of why this works might become clearer.
Best of luck. Keep making the videos!
:salute
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I just viewed the video DmonSlyr posted. That is the exact move I talked about about in my first post. I love that move. I didn't know it had a name. Most of the time I roll right, though.
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Never make the same style merge twice in a row.
That's all my advice
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Mike,
First, what you are asking to learn -- to convert a defensive fighter position into an offensive one -- is one of the hardest things to do in the game. I say this because I think you are trying to run before you can crawl. To get the best improvement, I think there are a few other basic things you might want to work on first.
In watching your films, I have noticed that most of your maneuvering is done while in the forward or forward up view. Very few (nearly none) of your maneuvers are done while keeping the enemy in view, especially rear views, up view or 3/9 views. You do use those views, but only to briefly look or "glance". You don't transition views while maneuvering to keep an enemy in sight. Until you can maneuver without ever losing sight of the enemy, all of the good tips and practice items listed above will be of little benefit.
You have to maneuver relative to your enemy and his maneuvers. To do this, you have to keep the enemy in sight while you are maneuvering -- not maneuver and then locate the enemy.
Watch your films and note where you are looking while you are maneuvering. In both your films below, notice that while you are making your break turns, you are nearly always looking forward and NOT keeping the enemy in view.
Here are two specific examples from your films of you flying I suggest you look at.
In the first example, watch from 6:10 to 7:10 (one minute) and note the following:
At 6:10-6:15 you see a Brewster at your high 8 o'clock position with closure (he goes from 2.5K to 2K distance). At 6:20 you glance back again and the Brew is 1.5K (continuing to close) and now at your 7 o'clock (tracking you). Instead of maneuvering against this threat, you go back to your forward view and instead follow the 109 who dives at your 11 o'clock. You pursue the 109 while never looking back to re-acquire view on the Brewster.
At 6:45 you start taking tracer fire (guess what, from the Brewster!). You perform a tight barrel roll (without looking back) and then a high-G break to the right (without looking back to see what effect your turn is having). AFTER your maneuver, you glace back and see the Brewster is still firmly placed there at your 7 o'clock at 800 yards out, but you only perform a couple slow aileron rolls -- nothing that presents a shooting problem for the Brew (see FLS' comment above). Then the Brew shoots you down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F8b5-RU71Y
Here is briefer example (only 20 seconds) where you tried to maneuver against a con, but did not keep him in sight DURING the maneuver, which got you shot down:
Watch from 5:10 - 5:30 in the following film.
At about 5:12 you notice a Corsair on your high 6 o'clock 2K away. You decide to turn back into him (a good idea -- try to turn INTO threats to force overshoots), however, you make a couple mistakes here. First, you don't turn very tightly and you turn nose up (so you simply get slow and present a full plane form as a target - again, look at the film from your killer's perspective to see how easy or hard you made yourself as a target!). Second, and most importantly, you turned without watching the enemy!
When, you do look at 5:22, he is inside your turn at under 1000 yards (your slowing in a nose up turn allowed him to close fast) and he is seconds from shooting you. You try to tighten your turn at 5:26, but you do so without watching him, so you have no idea whether your turn will be effective or not. In this case, he shoots both your wings off.
During your break turn, you should have stayed in your up view watching him, rolled right to place your lift-vector under his nose to get out of plane with him while pulling as tight as you could turn under him to foil his shot. But without watching the enemy, you have no idea where to roll to get under his nose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoXnHYQeGVg
Now lastly, go watch Violator's film of his barrel roll defense (defensive loaded roll). Notice that AS he is maneuvering he is using his different views to watch the relative position of the enemy Yak. He keeps the Yak in sight nearly 100% of the time. This tells him where to place his lift vector, how hard to pull to force the overshoot, when to time the barrel roll to push the Yak out front and then where to place his nose to get a shot on the reversal.
This is only possible to do if you maneuver while keeping the enemy in nearly constant view:
https://youtu.be/YAi_TRAV4E8
Using a hat switch to look around and keep something in view while maneuvering in three dimensions is not the easiest thing in the world. For some it is intuitive, but for most new gamers it takes some practice. While I applaud your willingness to dive into the deep end of the pool, I think this is causing you to skip over this fundamental and essential skill.
Working on maneuvering while in different views is, in my opinion, the next key step for you. Until then, you are boxing while blindfolded -- you can't fight effectively against what you can't see. I think it is honestly the root of all of your problems (why you get shot down and lose merges).
I suggest flying with a trainer or any of the of the people who have offered their assistance here and focus on maneuvering while NEVER losing sight of the enemy. Resist the urge to look forward while you maneuver. Only look at the enemy and maneuver based on where he is and what he is doing. Eventually you will be able to do this without thinking about it. At that point the more advanced stuff will become much easier to learn.
Becoming more fluid with your views is going to unlock many new possibilities for you. I believe it is the single most important thing for you to spend time on right now.
<S>
Kingpin
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Mike I am by far not the best pilot in the game nor am I the worst. I was once where u r now. It is very frustrating to die all the time. My only advice is to learn the basics. Then seek out the guys that have already posted here. The DA is great but the best place for me to learn is in the MA. Fly with a great wingman who is also a good stick is one of the best ways to learn. Let them be lead and just cover them. Watch how they move and jink. Also on Monday nights in the AvA we have Monday madness it normally starts at 7:30 central. It is a frustrating place to learn but most of the guys that fly will be more then willing to help. You are always welcome to join us on Rooks on Ch. 125 on Sunday nights at 730 central and I will fly with you.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
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The DA is great but the best place for me to learn is in the MA.
The BEST place to learn is in the Training Arena with a Trainer.
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The BEST place to learn is in the Training Arena with a Trainer.
Debatable....depends on the person...a lot have become better sticks than a lot of the trainers and they have not had any actual "training"
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Debatable....depends on the person...a lot have become better sticks than a lot of the trainers and they have not had any actual "training"
:aok
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well a lot of right answers here, Kingpin is right i do not watch the 1 target when i turn and maybe i should. part of the reason for that is i dont get many 1 v 1 most of the time there are targets all around or multiple cons on my 6 and i am trying to get low. i did try that last night and saw 4 on my 6 and when i pulled up hard i saw the parts getting shot off my plane. :x
1 thing you have to remember when watching my videos, i make them for entertainment ,flopping views around so fast does not make good entertaining videos in my opinion. but your point is well taken Kingpin.
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flopping views around so fast does not make good entertaining videos in my opinion.
I think Aces High players can cope with that Magic. We'd rather see your journey of improvement and some Magic kills :rock
Kingpin's put his finger right on it. That's why he's a trainer I bet :rofl To support his suggestion I remember going to the TA by myself and relearning all of the BFM I knew while looking backwards. The importnat things to know are where the enemy is (because it tells you what he's doing), and where the ground is (because that will affect your subsequent decisions (energy)). An advance version of this exercise is to takeoff, dump all your ammo and then fly under the nearest furbal and work on your SA / ACM in combination. Without the ammunition you are not tempted to consider shooting or getting aggressive.
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:salute hey mike I would really like to be able to help you. but alas the only thing I can teach is how to die fast as possible :cheers:
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So, are you actually wanting to improve or just make videos for the lulz/entertainment? If the latter is your primary concern I don't suspect it matters much, if you're still learning the basics such as BFM and "lose sight, lose the fight" I don't think you should even be worrying about making films but that's just me.
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Debatable....depends on the person...a lot have become better sticks than a lot of the trainers and they have not had any actual "training"
Junky, I think the important difference that needs to be pointed out in this discussion is "experience" vs. "training".
Training is a focused, purpose-driven approach to learning. Experience is learning through trial and error and bulk repetition.
The MA is a great place to get experience, because that's where many fights are to be had. However, not everyone learns most efficiently by experience. As you say, it depends on the person. Some people will just repeat the same error over and over. Some may recognize their mistakes and improve on their own.
The problem with learning by experience only is it can lead to gaps in knowledge that one isn't even aware of. It's hard to know what you need to learn. It's common to find A technique that works (without knowing why) and stick with it, but not ALL techniques that work (and why). Learning only by experience can also be a slow, painful approach as well. A single hour in the TA can often be more valuable than many hours in the MA.
Funny story: I worked with a veteran player not that long ago who was a dedicated "BnZ" guy who "has trouble with turn-fighting". After working with him for a few minutes, I realized he was losing sight of me in our 1v1s. This was in a Pony, which has great visibility, so it made no sense to me. I saddled up behind him and asked him to look back and tell me when he could see me. Turns out (long story short) he had been playing the game for many years without knowing he could use F10 to save his head positions!! Think setting his head positions and improving his views made a difference in his ability to turn fight...??
Trainers are not supposed to be "the best sticks in the game". Most of us don't spend enough time in the MA to pursue or maintain that level of play. I can give you a good fight, but I will never be one of the top sticks in the game -- and I don't aspire to be.
AH Trainers are meant to be good enough to recognize areas that can be improved upon, to be able to diagnose problems and to be able to articulate how to get better, regardless of the skill level of the trainee. It also requires a fair amount of patience.
When I was newer to AH, I went in the DA and "trained" under several of the "best sticks" (according to their dueling results) -- as I was told by many players to do. What I found was that some of these incredible sticks were not very good at helping others learn. They had the skill level, but they couldn't consciously articulate what they were doing right or what I was doing wrong -- they just did it, by instinct, having learned by experience.
Look at the varied replies from veteran sticks in this thread addressing what Mike needs to learn next. It is all good information, but none of them cut to the core of what Mike is missing -- keeping sight of the enemy.
What a Trainer can often do is find that one key thing for each player that they are struggling with to make them aware of it ("conscious incompetence") and provide a practice setting to become "consciously competent" at it. That to me is what Training is all about.
There is always something new to learn in AH, and even veteran players can even benefit from time in the TA. I have worked with guys who are superior sticks to me and they have all either learned something or honed their skill further in the training sessions. Training time is not just for new players.
Anywho, that's the difference between time in the TA and the MA, in my opinion. The best way to learn something is through training. The best way to perfect that knowledge is through experience in the MA.
<S>
Kingpin
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Mike,
What I suggest is along the lines of what Shida said:
Get with another player (any player) and just do some mock 1v1 fighting. Don't focus on shooting, or even better, don't shoot at all.
Just focus on flying against someone while keeping them in sight all the time. Especially work on doing this while flying defensively.
Let them start behind you and see if you can "shake them" WHILE KEEPING THEM IN SIGHT (no looking forward!).
You need to break the habit of looking forward to maneuver and THEN looking back to see if they are still there.
Hope this helps!
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Kingpin
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I think Aces High players can cope with that Magic. We'd rather see your journey of improvement and some Magic kills :rock
Ha ha . yup i agree there ,the funny thing is whenever the camera is off is when i get kills. dont ask me why that happens stage fright i guess lol.
So, are you actually wanting to improve or just make videos for the lulz/entertainment? If the latter is your primary concern I don't suspect it matters much, if you're still learning the basics such as BFM and "lose sight, lose the fight" I don't think you should even be worrying about making films but that's just me.
actually both , see i was not born a pilot. i have very little knowledge in what to do next. i can perform all the acm and bfm but i am lacking the next step and the instinct to do what i need to do. people watch my videos and say i should of done this or that and they may be right but if i can not visualize it and instinctively react the next time then im am stuck . thats where i am at now.
Mike,
What I suggest is along the lines of what Shida said:
Get with another player (any player) and just do some mock 1v1 fighting. Don't focus on shooting, or even better, don't shoot at all.
Just focus on flying against someone while keeping them in sight all the time. Especially work on doing this while flying defensively.
Let them start behind you and see if you can "shake them" WHILE KEEPING THEM IN SIGHT (no looking forward!).
You need to break the habit of looking forward to maneuver and THEN looking back to see if they are still there.
Hope this helps!
<S>
Kingpin
actually Kingpin i do this all the time with Morfiend. problem is he is so smooth i rarely can shake him so i just try to stay out of his gun sight cause he shoots at me. :devil
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i can perform all the acm and bfm but i am lacking the next step and the instinct to do what i need to do.
Consider that ACM and BFM are flown in relation to the bandit, otherwise it's just aerobatics. You can't fly relative to the bandit unless you're watching the bandit.
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Ha ha . yup i agree there ,the funny thing is whenever the camera is off is when i get kills. dont ask me why that happens stage fright i guess lol.
actually both , see i was not born a pilot. i have very little knowledge in what to do next. i can perform all the acm and bfm but i am lacking the next step and the instinct to do what i need to do. people watch my videos and say i should of done this or that and they may be right but if i can not visualize it and instinctively react the next time then im am stuck . thats where i am at now.
actually Kingpin i do this all the time with Morfiend. problem is he is so smooth i rarely can shake him so i just try to stay out of his gun sight cause he shoots at me. :devil
And if you can't keep them in view while fighting it's all moot anyway. Gotta walk before you run.
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Junky
I learned how to manuever from getting beat up a lot in the DA, after I started not getting beat up as much I decided I wanted to win a KOTH round....just a round, so I started to fly the KI84 a lot...that was the plane I had spent most of my time in. After I started to win some rounds I wanted to win the event....so I practiced in many aircraft so I could compete better for the win. Now I have 5 KOTH wins in the last few years, wabbited at TOC(while hungover and puking) and can handle myself pretty much against anyone in the MA or DA (Like you said about yourself...I can give a fight). For me competition fueled my progression, the "basics" were never given to me in a "training" format which is why I posted that....and I'm sure I'm not the only one. But don't take me wrong, I do think it is the best option for most people in game if they are looking to get better....like you said a lot of good sticks don't know how to explain what they are doing or how to do something because they lack the ability to teach. But alas there are a bunch of great sticks out there in the squads that teach their new members how to fly...I see different squads in custom arenas everyday "X squad training" Some people have a lot of knowledge....they know what right is supposed to be but just don't fly it...so maybe reviewing flight films is their best option for getting better.
I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of ways to get better in Aces high.
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Debatable....depends on the person...a lot have become better sticks than a lot of the trainers and they have not had any actual "training"
There is a saying. "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach". In my 50 years, some of the best in the business in what they do, are horrible teachers. I live that example. I am a track day driving instructor. I can't tell you how many people I have coached that are faster than me now.
The trainers are good at teaching, don't belittle their ability to instruct you...
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There is a saying. "Those who can, do, those who can't, teach". In my 50 years, some of the best in the business in what they do, are horrible teachers. I live that example. I am a track day driving instructor. I can't tell you how many people I have coached that are faster than me now.
The trainers are good at teaching, don't belittle their ability to instruct you...
I didn't mean to belittle and if they were from that comment they need to toughen up. Patches comment was that it's the best way to learn Aces High...if there are players who are top sticks in the game without any formal training....how could it have been the best for them?
All I was getting at is there are a lot of other ways people learn to play Aces High....don't think I don't notice half the AKs fly similar to AKDogg....or half of anti horde do the same reverse everytime like Sawzaw does....heck even the v yards had a thing for flying 190 like 1jblaser, that would have been an example of what not to do gameplay wise but it kept the boobs in his squad alive a little longer. Putting out there are a lot of ways for people to learn....just like there are many different ways to teach.
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Patches comment was that it's the best way to learn Aces High...if there are players who are top sticks in the game without any formal training....how could it have been the best for them?
I have to agree with Patches. A trainer IS the best way to learn, no where in there did Patches say it's the only way, or without years of trial and error that you could be better. Clearly though, there are many paths some leading to better results.
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ROFLMFAO - This thread sums up the AH community perfectly.
- Hey can I get some help in this?
- sure - try thinking this way
- Ignore that idiot, you want to try doing it that way not this way
- Are you mad? what you said sux. You should do the other...
- nahhh...ahhh...ahhh....what the first guy said was good but he left out what the 5th guy said but no need to worry about that because you can just pull a 9th guy roll IF you can keep an eye on him.
Truth is -there is a learning curve. For a new guy trying to go from 1 to 3 there are options. If you are at 5 then you need to get to 7...there are options....
You have to decide where you are at and ask for specific help.
I just love the fact this community cannot support without hurting......."hey dude, pull this move!!! Ignore what fu@kW1t said......
Scale of AH 1 to 10
I am a level 4 fighter pilot. I can teach you what I know. It works against level 3 guys 80% of the time and against the level 4 guys 20% of the time.
Play the 80/20 rule and ignore these guys unless they take you flying and help.
Hope I have been some help
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ROFLMFAO - This thread sums up the AH community perfectly.
- Hey can I get some help in this?
- sure - try thinking this way
- Ignore that idiot, you want to try doing it that way not this way
- Are you mad? what you said sux. You should do the other...
- nahhh...ahhh...ahhh....what the first guy said was good but he left out what the 5th guy said but no need to worry about that because you can just pull a 9th guy roll IF you can keep an eye on him.
Truth is -there is a learning curve. For a new guy trying to go from 1 to 3 there are options. If you are at 5 then you need to get to 7...there are options....
You have to decide where you are at and ask for specific help.
I just love the fact this community cannot support without hurting......."hey dude, pull this move!!! Ignore what fu@kW1t said......
Scale of AH 1 to 10
I am a level 4 fighter pilot. I can teach you what I know. It works against level 3 guys 80% of the time and against the level 4 guys 20% of the time.
Play the 80/20 rule and ignore these guys unless they take you flying and help.
Hope I have been some help
haha Fess it does seem to work out that way somedays.
when people post help when i ask, everybodys answer is equal in my book . i try them all ,and rather then say later hey your post was BS and did not help , i just say thank you all for your help.
because in my opinion anybody who offers help deserves credit for the offering.
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ROFLMFAO - This thread sums up the AH community perfectly.
- Hey can I get some help in this?
- sure - try thinking this way
- Ignore that idiot, you want to try doing it that way not this way
- Are you mad? what you said sux. You should do the other...
- nahhh...ahhh...ahhh....what the first guy said was good but he left out what the 5th guy said but no need to worry about that because you can just pull a 9th guy roll IF you can keep an eye on him.
That's strange. I really haven't had that impression from this thread at all. I saw a lot of offers of help, advice profered with some normal discussion about it, several films and some solid advice from some experienced players.
Quite proud of this community for that actually.
<Shrug>
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For me competition fueled my progression, the "basics" were never given to me in a "training" format which is why I posted that...
But don't take me wrong, I do think it is the best option for most people in game if they are looking to get better...
I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of ways to get better in Aces high.
OK. Then it appears you do agree with me (and Patches). Training isn't the ONLY way to get better -- it is just the BEST way to get better. (That's what Patches said, which you then said was "debatable". For the record: I didn't think you were trying to belittle the trainers. I just thought your comment may have been misinterpreted by others who may read this and think that time in the TA isn't beneficial, which is why I posted. Thanks for clarifying your comment.)
By "best", I mean the most efficient way to learn. Players getting good without formal training doesn't mean they wouldn't have benefited from it. It probably just took them more time than it could have.
Applying what is learned in practice and actual fights in the MA, DA and elsewhere (especially against the "top sticks" in the game, like in King of the Hill events) is also an important part of the learning process as well.
A smart and competitive player will take advantage of all these resources to hone their skills.
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Kingpin
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Before "formal training" scares away any more players let me point out that training is typically just another player, who is a trainer, telling you what they notice about your flying, suggesting improvements, and explaining how and why things work or don't work. This is an advantage. :D
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Before "formal training" scares away any more players let me point out that training is typically just another player, who is a trainer, telling you what they notice about your flying, suggesting improvements, and explaining how and why things work or don't work. This is an advantage. :D
Good point. Maybe "formal" is the wrong word. "Focused" or "organized", maybe?
Once a key area for improvement is identified, usually what I do is set up a couple exercises to work specifically on that one thing. We then run through it a few times until they feel like they are improving it or at least understand the fundamentals. This is what I mean by "formal". It isn't just two guys dueling and trying to shoot each other (though we do that too.)
Take for example some practice I did with OddCAF the other day: He said he has trouble with turn fighting, especially when winding up in a flat scissors. So, I had him fly on a certain heading until I could line up co-E directly off his 3/9 line about 800 yards out and then we would turn into each-other with the intent of entering a flat scissors. We did this several times while I suggested ways of improving, until he felt like he was getting better (which he did). It was "formal" in the sense that it was organized with a specific intent -- we had some good fights, talked about specific techniques, joked around some and had fun, all while he learned the basic keys to successful flat scissors. In fact, he PM'd me after Monday Night Madness this week and told me he was doing more turn-fighting and had some fun fights using the flat scissors on Monday night.
Training should be both educational and fun. This IS a game, after all.
Getting better and winning more tends to increase people's fun factor as well!
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Kingpin
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Deleted. (Forum doubled my post.)
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I just viewed the video DmonSlyr posted. That is the exact move I talked about about in my first post. I love that move. I didn't know it had a name. Most of the time I roll right, though.
When performed correctly, it's one of the nastiest moves in the game. This move is the key to defensive counterpunch flying.
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When performed correctly, it's one of the nastiest moves in the game. This move is the key to defensive counterpunch flying.
If do right, no can defend.
I am pretty good at using it to avoid the attack. I positively suck at getting guns on the guy until he's 600-800 out.
Wiley.
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If do right, no can defend.
There is a counter to this move. A lot of experienced BnZers know it because an overshoot is part of the business.
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There is a counter to this move. A lot of experienced BnZers know it because an overshoot is part of the business.
Hehe. There's always a counter. That was mostly said tongue in cheek. ;)
I think it's fair to say it's one of if not the most effective ways of dealing with a BnZer though. Depending on how refined the BRD is, the BnZer has to do the right thing or risk getting hit on the way out.
My usual counter generally involves having enough E for a rope/hammerhead or a spiral climb. What's yours?
Wiley.
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^^^^
A simple lag roll!
:salute
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^^^^
A simple lag roll!
:salute
LOL... I always like to high yo under the close in circumstances, but I can see where the lag roll applies. Another piece of the puzzle sticks into Wiley's cranium with a dull thud. Thanks Morf!
Wiley.
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Hehe. There's always a counter. That was mostly said tongue in cheek. ;)
I think it's fair to say it's one of if not the most effective ways of dealing with a BnZer though. Depending on how refined the BRD is, the BnZer has to do the right thing or risk getting hit on the way out.
My usual counter generally involves having enough E for a rope/hammerhead or a spiral climb. What's yours?
Wiley.
If I am the one BnZing and I over shoot, I'll snap roll to the right or left, depending on their position, and then do an emmilman over the top/ back of them. If they follow, pull another hard emmilman to really suck out their E. Then you can easily pull a rope.
Planes that dont roll well, it's best to do more of a spiral climb for the rope. Just make sure to get over their top to make them strain harder and lose E when they pull up for you.
I wouldn't recommend doing a rope maneuver in a furball as other planes will jump on your 6. If you overshoot in that situation just fly on and really watch your high 6.