Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Bong40 on May 28, 2016, 09:53:50 AM
-
Jacky's Revenge went down in the Hudson River yesterday :salute
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/05/28/small-plane-crashes-in-hudson-river-pilot-still-missing.html
P-47D N1345B
Pilot was unfortunately killed
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/p47registry/p47-4490447.html
-
This man went the way he wanted, with what he loved doing.
:salute
-
This man went the way he wanted, with what he loved doing.
:salute
After attempting to snag a ribbon stretched across a runway inverted, a mistake led to the biplane sliding hundreds of feet on it's top with sparks flying. As the pilot crawled out of the plane a news person stuck a camera in her face and asked what went through her mind as she skidded along upside down.
Paraphrasing, since I can't find the clip now, she said, "I just imagined some fool saying, 'She died doing what she loved'. I hate when someone says that!"
-
This man went the way he wanted, with what he loved doing.
:salute
Drowning in a plane? Doubt it
-
That's a damn shame. :(
-
Now Video has popped up of the crash
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=deb_1464404930
-
I'm wondering if the impact knocked him unconscious, or if he couldn't get his straps undone. :headscratch:
-
I'm wondering if the impact knocked him unconscious, or if he couldn't get his straps undone. :headscratch:
Not uncommon for the pilot to hit his head against the gunsight or panel on ditching. If he didn't get his harness locked, or if the inertia reel failed it is a good possibility. Not much reason for getting the harness undone, most are a single release that is simple to operate.
-
Drowning in a plane? Doubt it
-1
respect
-
RIP.
Sad to hear about this. I wish the pilot had made it out.
-
According to warbirdalley.com the plane was recovered in good condition.
---
http://www.warbirdalley.com/news.htm#latest
27 May: A 1945 Republic P-47D Thunderbolt, N1435B, c/n 44-90447, ("Jacky's Revenge"), operated by the American Airpower Museum, ditched into the Hudson River near Edgewater, New Jersey, USA after an apparent engine failure. Well-known warbird and airshow pilot Bill Gordon was lost in the accident, and a rescue swimmer was reportedly injured during the initial rescue attempt. Before the accident, the aircraft had been flying just north of New York City on a photo mission to promote an upcoming airshow. The aircraft was recovered from the water in excellent condition, testament to the pilot's skill in ditching it. [Our condolences to Bill's family, friends, and the museum communities he was involved with. --Ed.]
---
It is listed in some places as a P-47N. (It has the c/n of a D-40. Just looked this up. http://www.368thfightergroup.com/P-47-2.html )
Recovery photos: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3614274/Plane-fished-Hudson-River-day-crash-killed-William-Gordon.html
-
From Airliners.net
Landed near Jersey side of the Hudson, in view of Edgewater restaurants and such on the banks of the river.
Witnesses say pilot tried to get out and got the canopy partially open but the thing then sank.
Divers confirmed canopy was partially-open, reached in, and pulled the deceased pilot out by grabbing his foot.
Swimmer in water was/may-have-been good Samaritan trying to help; he's fine.
-
From Airliners.net
P-47 ditching procedure places emphasis on jettisoning the canopy. Gordon failed to do so. Under sufficient deceleration, the weight of the canopy can cause it to slam shut.
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13344704_10207128409023965_1676932246613583187_n.jpg?oh=26b56e8713353d26315ebdb3282079e4&oe=580B6B92)
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13332808_10207128409183969_4678210082733634323_n.jpg?oh=25327a49fe87be0db4f9225fe53ab5b6&oe=57C93F77)
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13322181_10207128731632030_1177998614979468274_n.jpg?oh=51c72985de887bddfc8158bc1f55777b&oe=57C5EBEC)
(https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13315404_10207128733592079_337608837963051995_n.jpg?oh=1fac9d19e125f6ff4fc7edc1ef7da4a4&oe=580F9434)
-
I think failed is a bit harsh. Guy didn't have much time.
Witnesses say he was struggling to get out. It sounds like his harness quick-release jammed up. That's why I always carry a knife to cut my harness loose (when I am allowed to that is).
-
I think failed is a bit harsh. Guy didn't have much time.
Witnesses say he was struggling to get out. It sounds like his harness quick-release jammed up. That's why I always carry a knife to cut my harness loose (when I am allowed to that is).
Procedures and checklists.... When in the Navy, we would hold ditching drills on a regular basis. There's no substitute for training until following procedure is automatic. It's unfortunate that some warbird pilots don't have the emergency procedures memorized. I've talked to several, who fly WWII aircraft, who stated privately that this is a common issue, especially among guest pilots.
We probably won't know exactly why Gordon did not get out. What we do know is that he did not jettison the canopy, and that may have been a significant contributor.
Other possibilities have been discussed. Had he not locked his harness, etc.....
-
Procedures and checklists.... When in the Navy, we would hold ditching drills on a regular basis. There's no substitute for training until following procedure is automatic. It's unfortunate that some warbird pilots don't have the emergency procedures memorized. I've talked to several, who fly WWII aircraft, who stated privately that this is a common issue, especially among guest pilots.
We probably won't know exactly why Gordon did not get out. What we do know is that he did not jettison the canopy, and that may have been a significant contributor.
Other possibilities have been discussed. Had he not locked his harness, etc.....
His harness was locked or he would not have been struggling to get out because he would have been unconscious.
The fact of the matter is he did one hell of a job getting the airplane down as well as he did.
Everyone talks tough until the SHTF. I flew with a former Navy guy when we had a cabin depress in a Falcon. I had to shout at him to put on his flipping mask and that is the first action.
Gordon wasn't some rookie. He had flown the Jug for years.
Blue Angel 6 did not eject the other day when all indications are he was in the envelope. So much for memorized procedures. Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.
-
His harness was locked or he would not have been struggling to get out because he would have been unconscious.
The fact of the matter is he did one hell of a job getting the airplane down as well as he did.
Everyone talks tough until the SHTF. I flew with a former Navy guy when we had a cabin depress in a Falcon. I had to shout at him to put on his flipping mask and that is the first action.
Gordon wasn't some rookie. He had flown the Jug for years.
Blue Angel 6 did not eject the other day when all indications are he was in the envelope. So much for memorized procedures. Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.
You cannot say if his harness was locked or not. You assume he would be disabled, but you can't know that either. Moreover, you come across as the typical armchair expert. I talk the talk because I have long since walked the walk. It isn't tough talk, it's called training. NATOPs qualified. Being able to recite emergency procedures from memory. That can save your life. Ignoring or not knowing will get you killed. "So much for memorized procedures" indicates your armchair status, because I know of no military pilots or aircrew who would make that statement. They know better... This is why we ran frequent ditching drills. This is why we rode the Dilbert Dunker during periodic requal in water survival training. For some of us, this is why we're still here.
The investigation will probably reveal why Gordon failed to get out... All we know now is that he didn't escape from the aircraft (which has an excellent record of pilots surviving a ditching). The other thing we know is that he didn't jettison the canopy. How that factored into his death, or not, is yet to be determined.
-
Widewing, with the canopy jammed half open like it was, would it still have been possible to jettison it in that position?
-
You cannot say if his harness was locked or not. You assume he would be disabled, but you can't know that either. Moreover, you come across as the typical armchair expert. I talk the talk because I have long since walked the walk. It isn't tough talk, it's called training. NATOPs qualified. Being able to recite emergency procedures from memory. That can save your life. Ignoring or not knowing will get you killed. "So much for memorized procedures" indicates your armchair status, because I know of no military pilots or aircrew who would make that statement. They know better... This is why we ran frequent ditching drills. This is why we rode the Dilbert Dunker during periodic requal in water survival training. For some of us, this is why we're still here.
The investigation will probably reveal why Gordon failed to get out... All we know now is that he didn't escape from the aircraft (which has an excellent record of pilots surviving a ditching). The other thing we know is that he didn't jettison the canopy. How that factored into his death, or not, is yet to be determined.
I walk the walk plenty and have ten thousand hours to show for it--including PBJ-1J, T-28, Strikemaster, and others, along with half a dozen jet type ratings.
I did Navy physiology training in Corpus the first time when I was in High School for crying out loud. Been there. Done that.
I will repeat. We cannot eliminate human factors, we can only mitigate them.
And you weren't there either. The guy did a hell of a job and saved the airplane.
When the defecation hits the ventilation we all react differently. NATOPS or otherwise.
Gordon did just fine. Something failed somewhere to prevent his escape. He very well may have tried to dump the bubble and it jammed, but the fact is the guy had very little time to do anything but ditch. He did that job perfectly.
I stand by my comment. So much for memorized procedures. It's yellow and black. Pull. Amazing how Air Force guys seem to do this more successfully than Navy ones. Culture? Training? Luck? Beats me. But it proves that all the practice in the world is not always enough.
They know better? Yeah, sure they do. They THINK they know better. They think they're invincible. They think 1,200 hours is highly experienced. I got news for them... They're just as fallible as anyone else when the fire goes out, and the difference between living and dying is not just having memory items at the ready.
-
See Rule #4
-
Widewing, with the canopy jammed half open like it was, would it still have been possible to jettison it in that position?
Phone video of the water landing shows the canopy open. Witnesses reported various things, but several mentioned seeing the "pilot struggling with the glass".
It's entirely reasonable that the canopy slammed shut on splash down. The risk there is that the canopy bow can smack the back of the pilot's head if the seat is cranked up high.
Because the canopy can be operated electrically via motor and cable, it takes a strong tug on the two knobs to pull it open (from my experience with a P-47N, displayed without a battery). Hence the ditching instructions stating to jettison it prior to landing.
Video and photos show that the canopy was barely more than half-way opened. It is possible that it jammed in place. The investigation will indicate if it did. However, since it was winched out of the river with it not fully opened, perhaps the divers were unable to open it further (very little leverage available). It didn't open further by its own weight when winched out (it's stiff to move manually).
Mitigating factors include getting out of the harness. It's easier to unfasten and slip out if unlocked. If Gordon locked it, he might have tried to unlock it. The lock lever is on the side of the seat base. He'd have to feel for it. I've never seen a harness buckle jam, but it can't be ruled out.
Invariably, the investigation will show a cascade of events that led to Gordon's death. S**t outta luck won't be mentioned, but it's a big one....
-
I walk the walk plenty and have ten thousand hours to show for it--including PBJ-1J, T-28, Strikemaster, and others, along with half a dozen jet type ratings.
I did Navy physiology training in Corpus the first time when I was in High School for crying out loud. Been there. Done that.
I will repeat. We cannot eliminate human factors, we can only mitigate them.
And you weren't there either. The guy did a hell of a job and saved the airplane.
When the defecation hits the ventilation we all react differently. NATOPS or otherwise.
Gordon did just fine. Something failed somewhere to prevent his escape. He very well may have tried to dump the bubble and it jammed, but the fact is the guy had very little time to do anything but ditch. He did that job perfectly.
I stand by my comment. So much for memorized procedures. It's yellow and black. Pull. Amazing how Air Force guys seem to do this more successfully than Navy ones. Culture? Training? Luck? Beats me. But it proves that all the practice in the world is not always enough.
They know better? Yeah, sure they do. They THINK they know better. They think they're invincible. They think 1,200 hours is highly experienced. I got news for them... They're just as fallible as anyone else when the fire goes out, and the difference between living and dying is not just having memory items at the ready.
So, after all of this rambling, it boils down to you NOT having piloted or crewed in the military.... I got it. To get qualified for any particular type, you'd better know the NATOPs as well as you know your car's license plate number. if not, you'll fail the written NATOPs test. If not, you'll flunk your check ride with the NATOPs evaluator. This goes for pilots, NFOs and aircrewmen. The training is intense and all encompassing. So is the qualification process. It saves lives. Because the Naval Aviation environment is orders of magnitude less forgiving than civilian aviation, it is necessary to train for it continuously. Procedures aren't there to make it tougher, they are there because they are proven to save lives and equipment. Dismissing this, or assuming it really doesn't matter is simply foolish. Until you've heard, "your signal is Charlie" on dark, rainy night with high seas and strong varying winds, you probably can't understand. Training and procedures are everything.
-
See Rule #4
-
Study on Human Factors Relating to Ditching: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a215755.pdf
Training does help, but the military and civilian survival rates are about the same. Strangely, one of the key survival factors to surviving a ditching is a being either a recreational or commercial diver.
-
Study on Human Factors Relating to Ditching: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a215755.pdf
Training does help, but the military and civilian survival rates are about the same. Strangely, one of the key survival factors to surviving a ditching is a being either a recreational or commercial diver.
I haven't finished it, but so far it is very good and backs up what I have said. Thanks for sharing.
-
I haven't finished it, but so far it is very good and backs up what I have said. Thanks for sharing.
Yeah, except that there is a vast difference between a rotorcraft and fixed wing ditching... Helos almost always roll inverted. They sink like bricks. I've an SH-3A crash-land at sea (lost tail rotor gear box). It rolled upside down and was gone in about 30 seconds. All of the crew got out (4), with one relatively minor injury.
Here's a story of 5 P-47s ditching together. All got out without major drama... One minor injury.
http://www.pbyrescue.com/Stories/p47_story.htm (http://www.pbyrescue.com/Stories/p47_story.htm)
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
The divers pulled his body out by a foot. The canopy was not the problem.
I'm thinking if the divers pulled him out by his foot he must have gotten the harness released. If he was still strapped in it would have been hard to get to his foot.
-
I can land a biz jet on a CVN if I have to without batting an eye. It's not rocket surgery.
And with that, we can probably end this discussion.
- oldman (who can fly by flapping his arms, no problem, you people must be weaklings)
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
I'm thinking if the divers pulled him out by his foot he must have gotten the harness released. If he was still strapped in it would have been hard to get to his foot.
I considered that as well. I have a feeling we will never know what happened. It is a sad event. At least he saved the airplane.
-
See Rule #4
-
Wow, what an amazing pilot!
Thanks. :rock
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/Biz%20jet%20CV.jpg)
I didn't realize an A-7 counted as a biz jet. Cool! :aok
-
Vraciu, if you are going to claim to be a naval aviator, you must supply some evidence. What did you fly? What unit were you with? What squadron were you in? What years?
-
See Rule #4
-
Vraciu, if you are going to claim to be a naval aviator, you must supply some evidence. What did you fly? What unit were you with? What squadron were you in? What years?
I wasn't a Naval Aviator. But that's beside the point.
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
And when I landed on a CV I had more to do with it than you did as 250 lbs of chewed bubble gum ballast, that I can assure you.
If a C-130 can land on a boat I guarantee you there are easily half a dozen biz jets that can. Not all, but certainly two I am rated in, if not three. Give me lots of WOD though just cuz.
"Falcon, Ball, two-point-oh."
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
See Rule #4
-
Thanks for that... Here's "Mac", as we all called him... A credit to the Navy. I keep in touch with his daughter, now a recently retired Navy CPO herself... She lost her dad 32 years ago, when she was 12 years old.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff480/Tredlite/Collie%20McCord%20Repaired.jpg?t=1465704537)
That man looks like he eats submarines and pisses jet fuel...
I'm sorry for your loss WW, but it's good to see you're still a part of the family. :salute
-
I can land a biz jet on a CVN if I have to without batting an eye. It's not rocket surgery.
I don't know you personally, nor claim to know anything about you. What I do know, is, I spend every day around hornet drivers, with thousands of hours under their belts, and I've never met a man who would make that particular claim. Life behind the boat is VERY real.
-
Learjet 45 Specifications - Airfield Performance: Takeoff distance 5,040 feet or 1,536 meters (SL, ISA, MTOW). Landing distance: 2,660 feet or 811 meters (SL, ISA, MLW)
Aircraft carrier length: 1,092 feet (Nimitz-class aircraft carrier)
-
See Rule #4
-
Learjet 45 Specifications - Airfield Performance: Takeoff distance 5,040 feet or 1,536 meters (SL, ISA, MTOW). Landing distance: 2,660 feet or 811 meters (SL, ISA, MLW)
Aircraft carrier length: 1,092 feet (Nimitz-class aircraft carrier)
Keep in mind those numbers are for a stationary runway and zero wind. With the runway trying to run away from you and a bit breeze across the deck the landing numbers will be much shorter.
-
See Rule #4
-
There is not a standard business jet out there that could even think about landing on a CVN. They are not built for that, and could not take the stress, let alone roll along the deck without being torn up. I can think of a few turbo props that could, but, it would be really dicey.
-
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6012/6003963265_520d7696e9_b.jpg)
-
Learjet 45 Specifications - Airfield Performance: Takeoff distance 5,040 feet or 1,536 meters (SL, ISA, MTOW). Landing distance: 2,660 feet or 811 meters (SL, ISA, MLW)
Aircraft carrier length: 1,092 feet (Nimitz-class aircraft carrier)
Lear 45 wouldn't be the best candidate IMHO and you'd most likely want the barricade rigged.
In any case it wouldn't use 2,660 feet to stop with 40-50 knots of wind over the deck (and being well below MLW).
OTOH, a Falcon 20, 50, or Citation Sovereign would need between 1,800 and 2,200 feet with zero wind, and way less with 40-50 knots WOD.
-
Keep in mind those numbers are for a stationary runway and zero wind. With the runway trying to run away from you and a bit breeze across the deck the landing numbers will be much shorter.
Exactly. Using a Falcon or a Citation with a Vref speed around 90-110 KIAS, depending, and the boat giving you 40 or 50 knots of WOD it isn't as hard as some will have you believe. (A Falcon or Citation can fly the Groove fairly close to forty knots slower than a Hornet does.). That puts you at a relative speed of 40-70 knots. With good anti-skid brakes you'll stop before you even get the buckets deployed.
They did it with a Herk up to some pretty high weights in that Super COD experiment by landing parallel to the keel so we KNOW it is within the realm of possible.
I would still probably want the barricade rigged and a sharp LSO (as if there's any other kind). :D
-
There is not a standard business jet out there that could even think about landing on a CVN. They are not built for that, and could not take the stress, let alone roll along the deck without being torn up. I can think of a few turbo props that could, but, it would be really dicey.
Plenty can take the stress. You ever seen the mains on the EMB-145 series? Had some Brazilian (I think) Fed drop one on the ground so hard he cracked the rear of the fuselage open like an egg (they have since reinforced that) and he didn't even blow a tire. They taxied off the runway with the tail dragging the ground.
:rofl
Plenty of them can do it. Especially straight-wing Citations and the smaller Falcons with slats. It's not rocket surgery.
You should see some of the Third World strips I have to fly out of. I'd take the carrier deck's surface any day over some of these places.
-
I don't know you personally, nor claim to know anything about you. What I do know, is, I spend every day around hornet drivers, with thousands of hours under their belts, and I've never met a man who would make that particular claim. Life behind the boat is VERY real.
Never said it wasn't real. Just disputing the notion that NATOPS equals infallible god-mode. That said, they do a great job in a tough environment. Nobody disputes that. :salute
-
See Rule #4
-
Well, it has gone off the rails.