General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Gman on July 10, 2016, 09:02:08 PM
Title: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Gman on July 10, 2016, 09:02:08 PM
Russian Mi24P - Gscholz and I had a thread going a couple years back about just how rare it was for the Mi24 to get shot down, so few if any vids back then of it actually going down, even after taking manpads hits - I think there were 3 or 4 videos in that thread of the Mi24 surviving manpads and making it out of the video at least.
This one - I can't tell if the first flashes are the Mi24 launching its own weapons, then taking a hit to the tail, or if all the flashes are from incoming rounds hitting, and the last one was just the largest warhead/flash, or what. Also don't see a missile trail at all, could be AAA, and I don't read Russian or Dirkstanian in the comments to see what's being said. As per the previous thread mentioned, it was agreed by all that the Mi24 is one tough bird, and even looking closely at this video, the tail was still intact pretty much, looks like just the tail rotor got chopped, not much else.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 10, 2016, 10:24:17 PM
Definitively multiple hits of some kind of explosive projectile. Two hits amidships and one at the very end of the fuselage. Almost looked like a proximity detonation. Then a hit on the tail rotor. At 0:18 the tail boom is silhouetted against the bright sky and is clearly intact. A small MANPAD might not have been visible since the video is of such low quality, but there were three more hits from some other weapon and a heat seeker is not very likely to strike the tail rotor, unless it's attacking from directly astern. There were no visible tracers either. Difficult to say what the hell got that Hind, but the rotor system is the Achilles heel of all helicopters, no matter how heavily armored the rest may be.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Gman on July 10, 2016, 10:33:56 PM
That's what I thought as well - proximity fused rounds from maybe a 37 or something - or perhaps combined AAA, they often do that, have their 57mm batteries protected by smaller 20mm guns. Maybe 20mm impacts on the side there that I thought could have been rocket pod launches too from the Hind, and then a very large 37, 40mm, or even 57mm hit right on the tail, because that was a rather large explosion, way too big for 20mm fire, but a bit smaller than typical missiles I've seen.
Either way, Achilles heel of any chopper, even the Hind, but like the video showed, pretty intact tail boom still - remember the AH1 in the recent vid the missile warhead chopped that tail in two like a knife on a cutting board.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 10, 2016, 10:41:28 PM
Yes it hit just aft of the turboshaft exhaust were you would expect it to hit. The Russian rockets produce a lot of dark smoke, so I don't think it was the Hind's own weapons creating the first flashes. Also the flashes moved further aft with each hit, the third one at the very end of the fuselage where no weapon would be on a Hind.
As for the youtube comments the Durkadurkastani was just a lot of "God cornered the Alawites and the Russians in hell, God willing," and other BS. At least according to google translate.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 10, 2016, 10:55:58 PM
Actually... After watching it repeatedly I think I've come to the conclusion that it is a single large caliber autocannon. The first two hits are against armor and are partially hidden from the camera by the Hind's wings and weapon pods, but the first flash is clearly large enough that it's visible both in front of and behind the wings. The last hit is not actually bigger than the three that precedes it. If you look closely there is a secondary fire/explosion creating most of the smoke and fire. The round probably hit the rotor hub assembly itself and blew up a oil reservoir or line. You can see the tip of the tail fin burning for half a second or so after the actual hit, and some debris falling of the tail is also on fire creating that huge puff of smoke.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Vulcan on July 11, 2016, 01:44:08 AM
I disagree, the smaller flashes look like rockets firing from the wings. First one looks like from both sides (flash is a U shape), then right, then left which creates the illusion of hits moving back. These all have 'trails' of smoke that look like rocket trails, whereas the tail hit creates a ball of smoke.
I actually even question whether it was shot down or a weapons malfunction. You can see something different in the 2nd rocket salvo.
edit: google search seems to indicate it was the 3rd rocket misfiring.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 11, 2016, 04:25:02 AM
I don't think so. This is what a rocket firing Hind looks like (also from Syria):
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Serenity on July 11, 2016, 07:43:51 AM
Position and timing of those first flashes leads me to call rocket launches. They're nicely sequenced, slower than I would expect autocannon impacts, but too well sequenced to include autocannon misses in between. And I DO see what looks like the smoke trails. That being said, I don't think rocket misfire, because that last blast is very clearly an explosion far astern of the pods.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 11, 2016, 07:47:05 AM
How would a rocket misfire take out the tail rotor anyway. Ground crew loaded the rocket backwards lol.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 11, 2016, 07:52:13 AM
It can't be rockets. The Russian rockets make much more smoke than that. But if it is a Mi-24P it could be the gunship's own cannon armament causing the initial two flashes. Watch this video for proof of both points:
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 11, 2016, 08:03:03 AM
Found this:
"The Russian Defense Ministry said Saturday that Daesh terrorists shot down a helicopter near Syria’s Palmyra, killing two Russian military instructor pilots.
On July 8, Russian military instructor pilots conducted a test flight of a Syrian Mi-25 helicopter (export version of the Mi-24 helicopter), when it received a request from the Syrian authorities to carry out airstrikes against a large group of Daesh terrorists advancing to the east of Palmyra, the ministry said.
"The crew received a request from the Syrian unit’s command to strike the advancing fighters. The captain, Ryastudmuffinat Khabibulin, made a decision to attack the terrorists. The skillful actions of the Russian crew thwarted the terrorists’ advance.
When the helicopter’s ammunition was spent and it changed its course to the opposite direction, it was shot down by terrorists from the ground and crashed in an area controlled by the Syrian government army. The helicopter’s crew was killed."
There is also speculation that it was a friendly fire incident and that the Hind was hit by fire from the trailing Hind...
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Vulcan on July 11, 2016, 06:35:22 PM
I don't think so. This is what a rocket firing Hind looks like (also from Syria):
Single vs salvo, back lighting is different, ambient lighting is different, footage quality is way more grainier. You can see the smoke plumes from the rocket launches (compare them with the explosion smoke). The first launch flash is U shaped, ie a flash from each side of the fuselage - which would prohibit it from being a round impact on the fuselage.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 11, 2016, 08:52:51 PM
Russian rockets still produce way more smoke than what we see in the video. And the smoke is black, not white. No lighting or video issue can explain why we don't see the rocket smoke in front of the Hind if we can see the smoke behind it.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Vulcan on July 12, 2016, 12:36:29 AM
(http://pandora.tzo.com/plumes.png)
3 plumes, all start with a dark puff of smoke, 3rd one has sometghing odd about it. The smoke plumes are long and match the shape of the photos you posted.
(http://pandora.tzo.com/poof.PNG)
The tail explosion. As you can see it is a round explosion, not a plume. Plume = rocket.
I didn't know you majored in photography/video. But that photo is too grainy and too dark to call an "elbows to point" or "smokes not dark enough".
Anyhoo, someone has done some awesome work enhancing the photos: https://citeam.org/ruaf-mil-mi-35-hind-e-down/
So it's either rocket malfunction or a friendly fire incident.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 12, 2016, 01:12:59 AM
Actually, I think you're right...
(https://citeam.org/files/before.gif)
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 03:13:02 AM
It could as well be a friendly fire accident, it could have been the second Hind that hit the tail rotor of the first one.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 11:50:22 AM
"The Russian Defense Ministry said Saturday that Daesh terrorists shot down a helicopter near Syria’s Palmyra, killing two Russian military instructor pilots.
On July 8, Russian military instructor pilots conducted a test flight of a Syrian Mi-25 helicopter (export version of the Mi-24 helicopter), when it received a request from the Syrian authorities to carry out airstrikes against a large group of Daesh terrorists advancing to the east of Palmyra, the ministry said.
"The crew received a request from the Syrian unit’s command to strike the advancing fighters. The captain, Ryastudmuffinat Khabibulin, made a decision to attack the terrorists. The skillful actions of the Russian crew thwarted the terrorists’ advance.
When the helicopter’s ammunition was spent and it changed its course to the opposite direction, it was shot down by terrorists from the ground and crashed in an area controlled by the Syrian government army. The helicopter’s crew was killed."
There is also speculation that it was a friendly fire incident and that the Hind was hit by fire from the trailing Hind...
It's not a Mi-25, its a Mi-35M. And it was most likely not Syrian but belonged to the Russian forces.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2016, 05:48:44 PM
It's not a Mi-25, its a Mi-35M. And it was most likely not Syrian but belonged to the Russian forces.
This site came to the same conclusion, kind of throwing a monkey wrench into the Russian MoD's explanation that it was a Syrian Mi-25 with a Russian flight crew on a test flight when asked to engage some targets.
https://citeam.org/ruaf-mil-mi-35-hind-e-down/
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 06:15:55 PM
The video contradicts the MoD story, the helo was firing and thus not Out of ammo and on its way back, there are also weird to use a helo doing a test flight for combat operations.
The Mi-35M, unlike the Mi-25, has a fixed landing gear and the gear is clearly shown in the video.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 12, 2016, 06:16:52 PM
Both the Mi-25 and Mi-35 are export versions, so it could just be a typo by the journalist.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 06:21:11 PM
It's still a huge difference between the two versions and its rather important since a Mi-25 suggest it was a syrian helo (as claimed) while a Mi-35M is most likely a Russian one.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 12, 2016, 06:40:42 PM
Are we sure the Syrians don't have Mi-35s now? Russians flying export versions sounds strange.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Gman on July 12, 2016, 06:43:30 PM
Lots of interesting stuff, that Mi24P cannon flash is interesting, wouldn't have noticed that, having a flash behind the actual nose of the Helo until that video.
Have to agree with Gscholz too, Vulcan is right I think, great finding those blown up pics and vids/etc.
Whatever the cause, and whatever the variant, export or otherwise, they are one tough customer to shoot down, I was going to link the old thread, it had at least 4 videos of various variants of the Hind taking manpads hits and shrugging them off, at least long enough to fly out of the video. Just a "golden BB" IMO, whatever struck the tail in that spot, probably THE weak point of any helo that isn't a NOTAR or whatever type.
I think the only vid I've seen of a Hind going down to a missile is the one with the GoPro which was attached to the Ukrainian Hind and it took some sort of missile hit, and went straight in, and the camera made it - no way to tell what hit it, could have been a much larger missile than a manpads too, SA6s have obviously known to shoot things down in that area...
I wonder how the AH64 stands up, truly, compared to the MI24 variants in terms of taking hits. I remember in Gulf War 2 there was an operation where some crazy number, like 20 out of 24 Apaches took fire that badly damaged them, some shot down as well.
edit - It was the 11th's Helo squadron of Apaches near Karbala - only one was shot down/lost, but the rest were hammered pretty good. I wonder in a peer state conflict, when 25+ year old Russian manpads or Chinese copies of such take out AH1s so easily as per the last thread here about that Turkish shoot down - if 95 percent of the Apaches from the 11th got chewed up so bad by just AAA and small arms/MGs, what happens when they run into swarms of infantry deployed manpads units on top of that? How good are the IR jammers/countermeasures and the new active defense stuff on US helos?
Quote
Of the 29 returning Apaches, all but one suffered serious damage. On average, each Apache had 15-20 bullet holes; one Apache even took 29 hits. Sixteen main rotor blades, six tail blades, six engines and five drive shafts were damaged beyond repair. In one squadron only a single helicopter was deemed fit to fly. It took a month until the 11th Regiment was ready to fight again. The casualties sustained by the Apaches induced a change of tactics by placing significant restrictions on their use.[11] Attack helicopters would now be used to reveal the location of enemy troops, allowing them to be destroyed by artillery and air strikes.[3]
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 07:02:51 PM
Are we sure the Syrians don't have Mi-35s now? Russians flying export versions sounds strange.
Yes they do. A Russian Air force Mi-35M: (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Mil_Mi-35M_%2851_yellow%29.jpg)
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 07:13:35 PM
I don't Think it was a SAM, a heat seaking missile should have hit closer to the exhausts and i highly doubt that there are any more advanced SAM:s operated by IS in the area. A lucky shot by a AAA is more likely, a 23 or 30mm round taking out the tail rotor.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2016, 07:31:32 PM
I don't Think it was a SAM, a heat seaking missile should have hit closer to the exhausts and i highly doubt that there are any more advanced SAM:s operated by IS in the area. A lucky shot by a AAA is more likely, a 23 or 30mm round taking out the tail rotor.
That one site I linked to made a good argument for friendly fire being the cause.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 07:36:41 PM
It is very plausible and i wrote about it in my first post. It is however hard to prove it with 100% certainty from that video alone.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 12, 2016, 07:39:57 PM
It is very plausible and i wrote about it in my first post. It is however hard to prove it with 100% certainty from that video alone.
It will be very hard to determine the cause, especially when the Russian MoD's explanation was that the helicopter was hit by a TOW missile.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 12, 2016, 07:43:18 PM
Yes, unless more videos are 'leaked' it will be hard to determine the cause. but a lucky AAA or friendly fire seems most likely. A tow... not so much, it would be an extremely hard thing to do.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Vulcan on July 12, 2016, 11:14:10 PM
Whatever the cause, and whatever the variant, export or otherwise, they are one tough customer to shoot down, I was going to link the old thread, it had at least 4 videos of various variants of the Hind taking manpads hits and shrugging them off, at least long enough to fly out of the video. Just a "golden BB" IMO, whatever struck the tail in that spot, probably THE weak point of any helo that isn't a NOTAR or whatever type.
I vaguely remember back in the pre-net days some articles floating around that indicated the Taliban had figured out weak spots on Hinds operating in Afghanistan and had started taking them down with HMGs. Probably the same spot.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 13, 2016, 12:46:36 AM
I doubt that you can hit a specific part of a helo without some sort of advanced lead computing gun sight. Keeping a large volume of fire in the air and hope you can land enough hits to take it down is a more feasible tactic if you are using HMG:s and light AAA. The ex with the AH-64:s earlier gives a good idea of how it works. A lot of MG-fire causes non fatal damage to a large number of helos but most of them makes it back to base and can be put back into action while a few unlucky is brought down.
Mi-24:s are a flying APC capable of taking hits from anything up to .50 cal so its not easy to take one down but this was definitely a larger caliber shell and it hit and took out the tail rotor. Extremely bad luck for the pilots.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Brooke on July 13, 2016, 01:58:57 AM
It looks from the link Vulcan posted that it was a fluke hit by a rocket from the trailing copter.
Mi-24:s are a flying APC capable of taking hits from anything up to .50 cal...
Actually the cockpit is armored to survive 37 mm hits, and the other vital components like engines and gearbox are protected from 23 mm hits. The whole fuselage is armored to withstand 12.7 mm rounds (.50 cal).
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Ack-Ack on July 13, 2016, 12:10:52 PM
Russian Mi24P - Gscholz and I had a thread going a couple years back about just how rare it was for the Mi24 to get shot down, so few if any vids back then of it actually going down, even after taking manpads hits - I think there were 3 or 4 videos in that thread of the Mi24 surviving manpads and making it out of the video at least.
It appears that shooting down a M-24 wasn't all that rare of an event during the Soviet - Afghanistan War. The Soviets suffered 74 Mi-24s shot down in combat, out of those 74 Hinds shot down, 27 were from Stingers and 2 from Redeye missiles.
Maybe the lack of success by Syrian rebels to shoot down a Hind stems from out-dated equipment and lack of training. Are all the MANPADs they're receiving current stock? I seem to recall that the Syrian rebels were given a lot of Cold War stocks of MANPADs purchased from Croatia. Maybe the MANPADs the Syrians are using aren't powerful enough due to be being older, almost out-dated weapons and their training is rushed and incomplete. For example in the Soviet's war in Afghanistan, the Afghanis were at first using older Soviet MANPADs and the US Redeye, which were barely able to do the job. Look at the number of Mi-24s shot down by the Stinger compared to the Redeye (27 to 2).
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: EskimoJoe on July 13, 2016, 05:34:51 PM
I could imagine elevation also playing a large role in the comparison. Flying higher up among the mountains of Afghanistan would mean taking out an engine makes it a little more likely that the bird won't be able to produce as much power and bring it down. That, plus the ability for the Taliban to hide and ambush helicopters as they show up. I don't see a whole lot of terrain being used by the Syrians, other than ditches, burms, open ground, and buildings being turned to rubble.
It's hard to get the draw on someone if you're the fish in a barrel.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 13, 2016, 10:26:36 PM
I think the only vid I've seen of a Hind going down to a missile is the one with the GoPro which was attached to the Ukrainian Hind and it took some sort of missile hit, and went straight in, and the camera made it - no way to tell what hit it, could have been a much larger missile than a manpads too, SA6s have obviously known to shoot things down in that area...
The only confirmed shoot down of a Hind by a MANPAD missile caught on video that I've seen is this one:
The video is not good enough for a positive ID, but it was reportedly an Armenian Hind. A direct hit to the fuselage with a supersonic missile like that no aircraft can survive.
I wonder how the AH64 stands up, truly, compared to the MI24 variants in terms of taking hits. I remember in Gulf War 2 there was an operation where some crazy number, like 20 out of 24 Apaches took fire that badly damaged them, some shot down as well.
Very different design philosophies... The Hind is an assault transport/gunship that shares its engines and rotor system with the Mi-8 series of heavy lift helicopters. To protect it all they had to armor the whole thing creating a 26,000 lbs flying monster, bigger than many WWII bombers. It is the fastest combat helicopter in the world, but no one would call it nimble.
The Apache on the other hand has a purpose built hingeless rotor system giving it extraordinary agility and precision in flight. It can sneak around and hide behind terrain like no Hind can... However they could not load it down with much armor so they made every component as resistant to damage as possible. The cockpit is pretty much the only area of the AH-64 that has any armor at all.
So while the Hind can just shrug off a lot of damage due to its heavy armor, the Apache, while also surviving, will have a considerably larger repair bill.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: Zimme83 on July 13, 2016, 11:06:10 PM
AH-64 and Hind is not the same type of helicopter, the Hind is a troop carrying assault ship capable of transporting and supporting infantry. US forces has no helo that has the similar capability. The AH-64 is more comparable to the Mi-28 or Ka-50/52.
Title: Re: Mi24 shoot down video from this week in Syria
Post by: GScholz on July 13, 2016, 11:21:51 PM