Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Wiley on July 25, 2016, 11:07:10 AM
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Hi guys. I think I finally have a specific question on what I need help with. Went into Sat KOTH this week and had a ball, but it reminded me of something I'd noticed the time before as well, and was hoping I might be able to find someone to help me tune up my merge.
My standard M.O. when I am co-e 1v1 is to work to get an alt advantage. Most of how I work things is towards that end, and I generally do alright at it.
With the 6k alt cap in KOTH, that doesn't work. If I did my normal schtick, I'd bust the cloud layer all the time. So what I'd like to try to figure out is, what other options do I have on the merge, and how do I make it work? If that makes sense. I'm planning to be on tonight likely around 7 or 8 Eastern if anyone's available.
Wiley.
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With the alt cap, you have to work a quick merge and attempt to get inside their emmilmann or turn. Because you don't have to worry about getting roped, the person who gets inside on the first Emmilmann typically has a better chance at winning. In Koth, it's better to start the merge around 3K so you have the ability to take the fight vertical without going over the cap. You can either do a quick horizontal turn and then pull up into their merge, this works sometimes, but is hard to perform against really good opponents who do a direct emmilmann sharply. You can do a sharp spiral climb merge to which ever way the torque rolls the plane, if you don't have a good rolling plane. Continue to use the torque as you go into the second climb or turn. If you do have a good rolling plane, i think it's best to do a direct emmilmann and use the rolls rate to change position at the top to get you in a good position for the next Emmilmann or spiral climb, or horizontal turn. If you can get inside their emmilmann, you have a good chance at winning if they go for a rope merge. You can slow down your merge speed by cutting a little bit of throttle, you can use rudder to help you get the nose over or get the nose inward, more quickly as you come around from the spiral climb Emmilmann. Work on doing sharp emmilmanns as hard as you can. The key is to set you up for another vertical maneuver that you can use to gain the advantage. When you roll over on the opponent at the top of the second emmilann, cut throttle if you are rolling against the torque, and get a notch or 2 of flaps out if you can. It can be a game changer if you can roll over sharply after the second merge.
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Good points, Violator. I guess I didn't quite articulate the precise situation I have trouble with. I understand fighting upwards fairly well, but in the KOTH, I'm REALLY not super keen about trying to merge at 3k and giving someone like Rudeboi or Bruv a 3k alt advantage to start the fight.
The situation I am having trouble with is when the two of you are starting near the alt cap at speed. Can't Immelman from there, can't spiral climb. Now what?
Wiley.
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Hey Wiley, when I'm participating in KOTH, I enter my engagement with enough room that I can possibly do anywhere from 1 to maybe even 3 vertical immeleman maneuvers in succession...
Most times this is at the initial "Fights On" call, where I'm approaching my first opponent, usually I will be flying level at around 5K All and once I spot their dot or icon, I will start diving (dive angle being dependent to what my opponent is doing) and also trying to gain horizontal separation as well as vertical separation....most times the opponent will dive as well, but I want to be lower than them and off to one side or the other...at around 1.5k to 1.2k out, I begin my turn into them trying for passing them right at the 3-9 line or just behind crossing their flight path 90 degrees off to gain an angles advantage....
Now, depending on the plane type, determines how much alt to be below the 6k alt cap, yet still be able to pull off a double or triple immel....sometimes you might have to go more diagonally on the last one to stay under the cap...
Hope this helps..... not sure when I'll be on, but don't mind helping you with this if you need me to.... btw fun fights in KOTH the other day <§>
TC
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Good points, Violator. I guess I didn't quite articulate the precise situation I have trouble with. I understand fighting upwards fairly well, but in the KOTH, I'm REALLY not super keen about trying to merge at 3k and giving someone like Rudeboi or Bruv a 3k alt advantage to start the fight.
The situation I am having trouble with is when the two of you are starting near the alt cap at speed. Can't Immelman from there, can't spiral climb. Now what?
Wiley.
So you dove and they stayed high?
or did they come in on / toward you after you had just recently finished off someone and are caught an alt disadvantage?
TC
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So you dove and they stayed high?
or did they come in on / toward you after you had just recently finished off someone and are caught an alt disadvantage?
TC
What I'm talking about is first fight after fights on.
Everybody's around 5k or up. The other guy is staying high. It just seems to me a bad decision to get low to set up to do an Immelman if he keeps his alt. Is that wrong thinking? Just seems to me if he keeps his alt, what will happen after I Immelman is, I'm now slow, and he's still at that alt with speed.
Wiley.
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If you are both high, you can do a horizontal turn and try to get inside their turn first. If that is not working you can turn the nose down, do a sharp slip S, then pull up into a vertical roll as they turn down on you. This is risky, but if performed right, you can do a BRD over the top, sorta like what you would do in a defense situation. This has helped me get out of trouble and reset the fight into a vertical rolling scissors.
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If you are both high, you can do a horizontal turn and try to get inside their turn first. If that is not working you can turn the nose down, do a sharp slip S, then pull up into a vertical roll as they turn down on you. This is risky, but if performed right, you can do a BRD over the top, sorta like what you would do in a defense situation. This has helped me get out of trouble and reset the fight into a vertical rolling scissors.
I think I'm starting to see a bit of the light. Basically in this situation you've got to prioritize the angle moreso than the E advantage? At least at first?
Wiley.
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What I'm talking about is first fight after fights on.
Everybody's around 5k or up. The other guy is staying high. It just seems to me a bad decision to get low to set up to do an Immelman if he keeps his alt. Is that wrong thinking? Just seems to me if he keeps his alt, what will happen after I Immelman is, I'm now slow, and he's still at that alt with speed.
Wiley.
They cannot go higher. So their speed and E is actually a disadvantage. If you come up under them and have the E to reach them, they are in trouble because they cannot use that E to go higher and rope you. It's easier to get a shot opportunity when they push down to avoid your shots. Typically, unless you are going under 300, you shouldn't get roped if you are over 3K. If you are on the deck, I wouldn't then. people who start rights at the top of the cap are usually at a disadvantage.
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If you both come in at/near the same alt, you should try to at least gain some horizontal separation before you merge, to allow yourself some room to maneuver for angles...
Fighting Bruv in a horizontal turn fight is like fighting Badboy, Bighorn, batfink, etc.... they work at wearing you down and wearing your E down....
As for them staying high while you dive, with enough practice, you will be able to time it to where you can fly right on to their "six".... I actually got possibly 2 or 3 KOTH films of this exact situation from either this past Friday or Saturday KOTH events...
TC
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I think I'm starting to see a bit of the light. Basically in this situation you've got to prioritize the angle moreso than the E advantage? At least at first?
Wiley.
That is correct. Angles are extremely important in gaining the advantage at any point of the fight. Use your ailerons to set the degree of the angle, then use vertical (up or down) to utilize that angle before you begin the roll. Your rudder will help you get the nose down and in position. You have to be the judge to decide how many G's you need to pull.
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They cannot go higher. So their speed and E is actually a disadvantage. If you come up under them and have the E to reach them, they are in trouble because they cannot use that E to go higher and rope you. It's easier to get a shot opportunity when they push down to avoid your shots. Typically, unless you are going under 300, you shouldn't get roped if you are over 3K. If you are on the deck, I wouldn't then. people who start rights at the top of the cap are usually at a disadvantage.
^
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^ this.... good post, Violator
Edit: this will work against the majority of players, but remember their are a few that can evade this... heck, Violator is one of them, hey
TC
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Ok... Thanks gents. I think I'm starting to see how it applies now. Coming over the top of that vertical maneuver basically means I'm in a better turning position if he's kept his E because he's faster now.
That makes a bunch of sense now. Now it's just a matter of figuring out how to apply the logic in maneuvers.
Thanks guys!
Wiley.
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Hi guys. I think I finally have a specific question on what I need help with. Went into Sat KOTH this week and had a ball, but it reminded me of something I'd noticed the time before as well, and was hoping I might be able to find someone to help me tune up my merge.
My standard M.O. when I am co-e 1v1 is to work to get an alt advantage. Most of how I work things is towards that end, and I generally do alright at it.
With the 6k alt cap in KOTH, that doesn't work. If I did my normal schtick, I'd bust the cloud layer all the time. So what I'd like to try to figure out is, what other options do I have on the merge, and how do I make it work? If that makes sense. I'm planning to be on tonight likely around 7 or 8 Eastern if anyone's available.
Wiley.
Your options on the alt cap merge are best sustained level turn at max alt while assessing the bandit or diving and using your increased speed to max turn, preferably a climbing max turn while assessing the bandit.
Your merge is likely above corner speed so a descending turn will be slow turn rate and wide radius and prone to blackout. A climbing turn will get you to corner speed faster for your best turn but mind the bandit, you have to see if they're blowing energy to out-turn you or building an advantage with an easy turn above you. You can match their choice or bet one approach against the other.
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Great information, I'm taking notes.
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If you do find yourself at 6K with another player zooming up....start a flat turn fight. In that situation he will be more nose up turning try to get around to you which is going to scrub a lot of his E...depending on the plane I wouldn't drop flaps unless he started coming around, this will insure you have the E advantage and you should be able to manuever behind them because you will be able to low yo yo to take lead pursuit when you do dump flaps....it's the same concept as a spiral climb but you just aren't climbing....burning their E whill saving some of yours to get a kill shot.
As far as the merge, I cruise around at 5K at the start...a lot go to the limit but you're just asking to have too much E in the merge.
In KI84 rounds I won't go above 360 TAS because at that speed I can spiral climb to 6K....if my opponent has more E..I know I can zoom climb to the highest point he can go...you are better off playing angles unless you start with an alt advantage, at which point you should be E fighting him.
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Although I am not a KOTH event vet (as they are usually held at times I can't attend) we've done a lot of squad practice with alt caps in custom arena's with a violent wind layer at the cap alt and I've fought in Monday Madness which has an alt cap that a lot of people fly at or near, so the tactics are similar.
A few concepts that may be important for you to explore/understand, if you don't already, are one-circle vs. two-circle fights, turn radius vs. turn rate and corner speed vs. sustained turn speed.
That may sound very technical, but it's actually kind of simple in application. The initial decision (at or before the merge) will be: do you want to fight one-circle or two-circle? This can be based on recognizing a speed difference between you and your opponent (or a matter of preference based on what you are good at).
If you know going into the merge whether you are faster or slower than your opponent (based on SA), or if you can suss that out during the first merge, that can help you decide what type of turn (or merge) to push for. Generally speaking, if you are carrying more speed than your enemy, then pushing for a two-circle fight (turning nose-to-tail) will be better (which is kind of what Junky described in his flat turn with speed scenario above). If you have less speed than your enemy, then going one-circle (nose-to-nose turn or scissors fight) will be better, because you will be able to turn inside their turn radius (as Violator describes in his suggestions above).
In other words, if you think you are slower, or are in a position to get slower more quickly than your opponent, go scissors fight and turn inside them. If you are faster and can maintain that energy advantage, you might be better turning nose to tail and using turn rate (instead of turn radius) to win position. Knowing both ways of turn fighting is important because a fight can transition back and forth, such as a rolling-scissors (two circle) fight becoming a defensive scissors (one circle).
Knowing the "speed stuff" (corner speed and sustained turn) can be helpful as well, as it will let you know when to use what vertical space you have to control your speed. For example, if you know you are above corner speed, you can turn slightly nose up (assuming starting at 5K in the scenario you described) to scrub some speed and get closer to corner speed which will get you to max turn rate. If you are slower than you want to be, you can make a nose down turn (or low yo-yo) to gain speed in the turn (which was also described above). Knowing the best sustained turn configuration (flaps setting) and speed for a given aircraft can help if you do wind up in a protracted nose-to-tail chase (lufbery) fight.
Angle fights aren't always about out-scissoring your opponent, but they do often wind up there, especially once you've gained position and your opponent goes guns defensive. So, some scissors practice is always good. But if you've gotten to that point, you've won the merge part of the fight!
Hope this helps some too.
By they way, posting some AH films of your merges and fights in the films section might be a good way to get feedback as well.
<S>
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Kingpin what time do you normally play??? US primetime KOTH is coming back next month and it would be awesome to have ya there :salute
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Kingpin what time do you normally play??? US primetime KOTH is coming back next month and it would be awesome to have ya there :salute
I'm on the west coast and more of a night owl, so usually near the end or after US primetime. However, I try to schedule exceptions for events, training and whatnot. So, keep me posted!
Thanks for asking.
<S>
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I just wanted to add a point to the replies here.
If you're both presumably at max cruising speed at 5k, you're co-E. If you as TC suggested try to gain vertical separation, which means diving to gain a lower position entering the merge, you're still co-E. A low fast plane can have the same E as a higher slower plane.
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I just wanted to add a point to the replies here.
If you're both presumably at max cruising speed at 5k, you're co-E. If you as TC suggested try to gain vertical separation, which means diving to gain a lower position entering the merge, you're still co-E. A low fast plane can have the same E as a higher slower plane.
Good lord! Who the heck are you? :)
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Good lord! Who the heck are you? :)
Just some old fogy that started flying online 20+ years ago, nobody important.
Hi Dan :rock
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Just some old fogy that started flying online 20+ years ago, nobody important.
Hi Dan :rock
Back for AH3 or just visiting? :D
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He looks funny with out a guitar in his hands :D
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How is the 6k cap enforced in koth?
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Cloud layer at 6k with maximum updraft above it. People are always recording if necessary, and the host is watching.
Wiley.
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How is the 6k cap enforced in koth?
Bruv and I fly around in CM eye mode. Also there is a lot of integrity within the KOTH vets so you really don't have to worry about it too much
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I just wanted to add a point to the replies here.
If you're both presumably at max cruising speed at 5k, you're co-E. If you as TC suggested try to gain vertical separation, which means diving to gain a lower position entering the merge, you're still co-E. A low fast plane can have the same E as a higher slower plane.
Potential E (altitude) and Kinetic E (Speed). What you have to watch for is turn radius at high speed if you are going from low to high at high speed. In Real Life (Not sure it is modeled here) the aircraft pulling up has a turn radius which is naturally bigger...because you are fighting G. The downward turning aircraft has the G helping him. So essentially a constant 4G indicated turn in the pure vertical is shaped like an egg....Bigger on the bottom (fighting G), and smaller up top (G helping...). BUT...if you get a good lead turn in as the bottom aircraft, and meet your opponent in the near vertical (he is going down, you are going up...you essentially reversed the advantage). If he denies you the lead turn, well...it becomes a fight what you see:)
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Here's a write-up on the merge.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/80-tactics/fighter/1044-acm-and-merge
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Here's a write-up on the merge.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/80-tactics/fighter/1044-acm-and-merge
Nice write-up! :aok
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"By Murdr"
Nice write-up! :aok
:rofl :aok
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"By Murdr"
:rofl :aok
I put that together probably 8-9 years ago. Just read through it for the first time in years. I'm glad it's still in use and potentially helpful :salute
Back for AH3 or just visiting? :D
Maybe eventually. I'd have to gear up with a good machine first.
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Hey Murdr, cool to see you back. So many great pilots coming out of the woodwork.
:banana:
Great info in this thread, Junky/Murdr/TC/VIO/etc.
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Potential E (altitude) and Kinetic E (Speed). What you have to watch for is turn radius at high speed if you are going from low to high at high speed. In Real Life (Not sure it is modeled here) the aircraft pulling up has a turn radius which is naturally bigger...because you are fighting G. The downward turning aircraft has the G helping him. So essentially a constant 4G indicated turn in the pure vertical is shaped like an egg....Bigger on the bottom (fighting G), and smaller up top (G helping...). BUT...if you get a good lead turn in as the bottom aircraft, and meet your opponent in the near vertical (he is going down, you are going up...you essentially reversed the advantage). If he denies you the lead turn, well...it becomes a fight what you see:)
The physics of flight are modeled. The energy egg is easily seen if you turn trails on in the film viewer.
I put that together probably 8-9 years ago. Just read through it for the first time in years. I'm glad it's still in use and potentially helpful :salute
Maybe eventually. I'd have to gear up with a good machine first.
Get a machine for VR, Aces High is amazing in VR. There's a propeller model update and we even have green trails for the player aircraft in the film viewer now. :D
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Good to know FLS. Thank you sir!
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I put that together probably 8-9 years ago. Just read through it for the first time in years. I'm glad it's still in use and potentially helpful :salute
Maybe eventually. I'd have to gear up with a good machine first.
Hey Troy! Hope the rockstar lifestyle isnt dragging you down!
Now get your butt back in here! :devil
:salute
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Good to know FLS. Thank you sir!
Btw if nobody mentioned it to you yet, you can put the dot command .showrv in the text buffer offline and Hitech's RV8 will be available to fly offline and in the training arena.
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Offline practice your double Immelmanns. Dive down from 5k and get your turns right so you know when you hit your 5.8k mark. Leave 200ft for error