Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Open Beta Test => Topic started by: shift8 on August 21, 2016, 02:08:49 PM
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I am not sure that the new radar icons are a good idea. I think that they give people far too much information and are too "gamey." Not that the original radar icons were ever all that realistic, but the new ones take things to a whole new level. The new radar icon system allows for the real time directional tracking of each individual plane, and on top of that tells you what type of plane you are tracking. The old system with just the dots meant that you had to spend time watching a contact for some time to determine its direction because it only updated periodically. You also didnt know what kind of plane you were looking at. This was a much better system for maintaining a veneer that are getting general information about enemy formations relayed to you from ground radar. The dots gave you a general impression of the size and disposition of certain cons. Not immediate 360 degree exacting data on single airplanes. This is especially problematic for bombers, since people will now know exactly which cons to gun for when they take off etc.
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It is highly possible this is an answer to the last 4 years of forum complaints about players hiding from each other. If you don't want to be found, fly between the radar rings or NOE.
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I believe the extra clipboard information is from ground observers.
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It is highly possible this is an answer to the last 4 years of forum complaints about players hiding from each other. If you don't want to be found, fly between the radar rings or NOE.
I certainly hope not. Those were always stupid complaints from people who think everyone should play the game their way. If you want a giant air-quake climb festival, there is a game for that. Its called war thunder.
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I believe the extra clipboard information is from ground observers.
Ground observers would not be able to report the flying direction of multiple airplanes moving in different directions, nor would it be possible to somehow relay such specific information without the context being lost in the transmission. They might be able to tell bombers from fighters, but that data would be far from real time.
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I believe the extra clipboard information is from ground observers.
Wow, we have gone from squirrels with cameras to squirrels with radios snitching on people........ :O
If you turn off icons then don't ever look at your map, you should be very happy shift8. Maybe wish for Hitech to add a toggle to the map to turn off friendly\foe icons. Then you can tell everyone over ch200 how gamey the rest of us fly...... ;)
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Wow, we have gone from squirrels with cameras to squirrels with radios snitching on people........ :O
If you turn off icons then don't ever look at your map, you should be very happy shift8. Maybe wish for Hitech to add a toggle to the map to turn off friendly\foe icons. Then you can tell everyone over ch200 how gamey the rest of us fly...... ;)
Bustr, you know full well that one player turning off his icons and not using his clipboard does not solve the problem. Dont try to deliberately obfuscate the issue by pretending that would change anything.
Desiring what amounts to a player tracker is Objectively gamey. This is not what occurs in real life. I dont know if Hitech did it for this reason, in fact I am inclined to think it was just a artwork change, but players who like this for your stated reason are demanding what is essentially a personal player tracker. It is downright retarded to think it is reasonable and realistic to be able to track in real time individual airplanes along with their type and bearing on the clipboard. This removes the element of surprise to a nonsensical degree. You may as well give each player he own personal AWACS.
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Ground observers would not be able to report the flying direction of multiple airplanes moving in different directions, nor would it be possible to somehow relay such specific information without the context being lost in the transmission. They might be able to tell bombers from fighters, but that data would be far from real time.
Multiple ground observers combined with radar.
This removes the element of surprise to a nonsensical degree.
Bomb the radar. :aok
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Multiple ground observers combined with radar.
Bomb the radar. :aok
Players should not have to deal with such a silly radar icon system in the first place dude. That is not a solution anymore than flying outside of the radar cone is.
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So you want us all flying around blind using the squirrels as seeing eye rodents then. OK, you will probably be the only player in the MA after a week or Hitech will switch icons back on to keep his doors open and call it his shift8 moment of insanity.
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I think the new system will help promote combat.
You can prepare for bomber attacks quicker, prevent them from closing bases and be at sufficient height to attack before they bail out.
Bustr is right pork the radar along the front before your run if your scared of attackers. I'd also have a wish to go alongside by making the radar tougher to kill.
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The problem with bombers is that a player can go afk for a dump while his buffs climb to 30k. There is no penalty for such altitudes. And even if you had a buff icon within a dar ring it is nigh on impossible to deal with them. Then they have the advantage of the simple bombsight alignment, and a 3 plane formation to deal with.
Maybe AH3 will bring more clouds, even something as simple as cloud layers obscuring bombsights would even things out a lot.
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I think the new system will help promote combat.
You can prepare for bomber attacks quicker, prevent them from closing bases and be at sufficient height to attack before they bail out.
Bustr is right pork the radar along the front before your run if your scared of attackers. I'd also have a wish to go alongside by making the radar tougher to kill.
Bruv is correct. It helps the gameplay. At first you don't know what type of aircraft it is. When you close it becomes apparent. Makes the air battle much more fun.
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Bruv brings out some good points, but I always understood that the original Radar system Britain used gave them the number, course and altitude of the "boogies" . Don't see this as much different. :joystick:
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I think the new system will help promote combat.
You can prepare for bomber attacks quicker, prevent them from closing bases and be at sufficient height to attack before they bail out.
Bustr is right pork the radar along the front before your run if your scared of attackers. I'd also have a wish to go alongside by making the radar tougher to kill.
I'd take it one step further and wish for indestructible fighter hangars. Nothing is worse than the hangars getting porked at the only active fight going on - especially if there is no associated base capture attempt.
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Bruv brings out some good points, but I always understood that the original Radar system Britain used gave them the number, course and altitude of the "boogies" . Don't see this as much different. :joystick:
The number was by sighting and estimation. The altitude was through the use of sighting devices and a lookup table (math). Radar of the time could not do either one.
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and the sector clock..
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff274/lowerbrook/Clock_Aug-15-1024x768_zpsklfgtvtt.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/lowerbrook/media/Clock_Aug-15-1024x768_zpsklfgtvtt.jpg.html)
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and the sector clock..
(http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff274/lowerbrook/Clock_Aug-15-1024x768_zpsklfgtvtt.jpg) (http://s237.photobucket.com/user/lowerbrook/media/Clock_Aug-15-1024x768_zpsklfgtvtt.jpg.html)
What's the purpose of the colored wedges?
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Wow, we have gone from squirrels with cameras to squirrels with radios snitching on people........ :O
If you turn off icons then don't ever look at your map, you should be very happy shift8. Maybe wish for Hitech to add a toggle to the map to turn off friendly\foe icons. Then you can tell everyone over ch200 how gamey the rest of us fly...... ;)
in other games, especially a 1st person shooters,a player tracker is usually a hack. just a thought, called..esp
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The problem with bombers is that a player can go afk for a dump while his buffs climb to 30k. There is no penalty for such altitudes. And even if you had a buff icon within a dar ring it is nigh on impossible to deal with them. Then they have the advantage of the simple bombsight alignment, and a 3 plane formation to deal with.
Maybe AH3 will bring more clouds, even something as simple as cloud layers obscuring bombsights would even things out a lot.
No it's not. it's no more impossible than it is for them to climb up there. YOU have to be willing to invest the time to be up there, just like they have. They are most likely trying to mask their path and sometimes you will need to mask your interception so they won't know for sure you are up there waiting. It's like a chess match.
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I am not sure that the new radar icons are a good idea. I think that they give people far too much information and are too "gamey." Not that the original radar icons were ever all that realistic, but the new ones take things to a whole new level. The new radar icon system allows for the real time directional tracking of each individual plane, and on top of that tells you what type of plane you are tracking. The old system with just the dots meant that you had to spend time watching a contact for some time to determine its direction because it only updated periodically. You also didnt know what kind of plane you were looking at. This was a much better system for maintaining a veneer that are getting general information about enemy formations relayed to you from ground radar. The dots gave you a general impression of the size and disposition of certain cons. Not immediate 360 degree exacting data on single airplanes. This is especially problematic for bombers, since people will now know exactly which cons to gun for when they take off etc.
You're not going to be able to "Lone Ranger" a milkrun across 30 sectors while just placing one bomb on each town for points. That's going to be the biggest difference. You will now have to fly in a formation with other bombers and escorts if you want to fly across the map and have any hope of making it home. Your escorts likely won't be willing to help you milkrun if it isn't helping the war effort. Yeah, a few things will have to change with how you fly. Things that will make it more realistic, certainly not less. Or you can ignore all that and I will be up there, waiting.
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What's the purpose of the colored wedges?
Copy and paste...
Aircraft position was recorded along with the colour of the triangle beneath the minute hand at the time of sighting. This was reported to sector headquarters, where counters of the relayed colour were used to represent each air raid on a large table with a map of the UK overlaid with a British Modified Grid. As the plots of the raiding aircraft moved, the counters were pushed across the map by magnetic "rakes". This system enabled "Fighter Controllers" to see very quickly where each formation was heading and allowed an estimate to be made of possible targets. The age of the information was readily apparent from the colour of the counter. Because of the simplicity of the system, decisions could be made quickly and easily.
Essentially easy to see time flow..seems to have been very effective as they kept the system for so long..simple but effective
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I think the new system will help promote combat.
You can prepare for bomber attacks quicker, prevent them from closing bases and be at sufficient height to attack before they bail out.
Bustr is right pork the radar along the front before your run if your scared of attackers. I'd also have a wish to go alongside by making the radar tougher to kill.
This does not promote combat in general. This promotes a very specific form of combat: the crap-shoot fur-ball. This sort of thing negates the advantages of certain planes and otherwise legitimate tactics and strategy. It artificially shoehorns players into certain types of engagement geometry instead of letting the various aircraft characteristics organically create the conditions of combat and their associated rules.
Adding on that you would want the radar to be further hardened is even more preposterous. I mean seriously, why don't you guys just demand what you really want?
Screw all this MA stuff right? If you want to "promote combat" how about we just have one nice short canyon with a concrete roof. Just like the DA canyon but with no escape! Then we can remove every airplane in the game except the Ki-43! Then we can cram 600 players into this death tunnel and everyone can dance around each other like fly's next to a light pole. :x
That, or we can just tether all the airplanes together with cables and fly around in circles till someone gets bored. :cheers:
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Watch the movie "Angels One Five". A 1952 British film that shows what a RAF war room was like in WWII.
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This does not promote combat in general. This promotes a very specific form of combat: the crap-shoot fur-ball. This sort of thing negates the advantages of certain planes and otherwise legitimate tactics and strategy. It artificially shoehorns players into certain types of engagement geometry instead of letting the various aircraft characteristics organically create the conditions of combat and their associated rules.
What? :headscratch:
A planes strengths and weaknesses is in no way, shape, or form affected by how a radar station works.
It almost sounds to me like you want other people to play this game how you want them to. Either that or you're one of those players who only does the sneaky flying stuff onto undefended bases and then high-tails it out of there when trouble arises.
If you don't like combat then go play in the offline mode. You won't have to worry about other players in there and it's FREE! :x
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I am not sure that the new radar icons are a good idea. I think that they give people far too much information and are too "gamey." Not that the original radar icons were ever all that realistic, but the new ones take things to a whole new level. The new radar icon system allows for the real time directional tracking of each individual plane, and on top of that tells you what type of plane you are tracking. The old system with just the dots meant that you had to spend time watching a contact for some time to determine its direction because it only updated periodically.
A few seconds, depending on population and proximity. Plus, you still have to watch the display on the new system to see if it's flying straight or turning. The only new information is certainty whether it's a fighter or a bomber, which can be guessed with a fair degree of accuracy already by how the dot behaves.
The game will survive this.
Wiley.
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The radar will probably undergo some setting changes when the AH3 soft launches this week. Don't everyone get their panties bunched up in a wad before they see how the radar is after launch.
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I think the new system will help promote combat.
You can prepare for bomber attacks quicker, prevent them from closing bases and be at sufficient height to attack before they bail out.
Bustr is right pork the radar along the front before your run if your scared of attackers. I'd also have a wish to go alongside by making the radar tougher to kill.
+1 both ordnance and radar should present a much harsher treatment to go down.
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A few seconds, depending on population and proximity. Plus, you still have to watch the display on the new system to see if it's flying straight or turning. The only new information is certainty whether it's a fighter or a bomber, which can be guessed with a fair degree of accuracy already by how the dot behaves.
The game will survive this.
Wiley.
I agree. Only noobs can't see what our current red dots are as far as fighter of bomber just by its airspeed moving accrost the map.
You would be better off asking for hitec to add more of a delay to the icons ( witch is currently available already and used in special events).
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If you climb hard in a fighter you have much slower forward motion. By climbing hard I mean a little more than optimum. It causes you to not climb as quickly but it can also make you look like a set of buffs to the...ummm trained eye. :D
Of course some consider my fighter a buff anyway. :P
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If you climb hard in a fighter you have much slower forward motion. By climbing hard I mean a little more than optimum. It causes you to not climb as quickly but it can also make you look like a set of buffs to the...ummm trained eye. :D
not to mention full speed tu2s, b29s, mossie XVI's are just as fast as most fighters.
would be nice for an approximate altitude marker but I appreciate that would be a touch too far hehe.
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Well the 88's solve that if it fly's over a field.
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thats the point though, too late to intercept when your sat in an 88mm, promoting A2A combat.
Sounds to me like shift needs to brush up on his gunning skills. Whenever I'm in bombers I relish the chance to fire my guns in anger.
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True that..
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I like the old dot system better.
The new plane icons make the map too busy. Whenever someone talks, their icon becomes HUGE, so big it obscures the map enough that you can't accurately tell where they were.
If it is staying, remove the fighter/bomber type icon and just make them all littler planes.
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Wonder if FOV affects that.
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What? :headscratch:
A planes strengths and weaknesses is in no way, shape, or form affected by how a radar station works.
It almost sounds to me like you want other people to play this game how you want them to. Either that or you're one of those players who only does the sneaky flying stuff onto undefended bases and then high-tails it out of there when trouble arises.
If you don't like combat then go play in the offline mode. You won't have to worry about other players in there and it's FREE! :x
Labtrobe, yes they are. When you change the combat environment artificially, you fundamentally alter the "weight" of some aircraft characteristics over others. This changes what tactics are viable, and what planes people will fly. It also doesnt really fix peoples game play complains, since it all it really does is shift the goalposts.
Altering the amount of info the radar gives you in this case allows players to chase aircraft well beyond LOS, and gives them unreasonable amounts of SA to make decisions with. SA that is FAR outside the bounds of what they would have IRL. This will negatively impact both energy fighters and bombers in particular. Bombers because now players will know exactly where to mass and when, and with what kind of plane to down a bomber. While it may have been possible to to this to a certain extent before, it will now be even more deterministic. For E energy fighters it will mean that planes that are not involved in a fighter will have far too much data to find one and then have lots of data to chase those planes when they try to extend. Having such precise data on fighters that are far beyond visual range will mean that the reset distance for a extending fighter will become ridiculous. It will also mean that everyone for 9000 miles suddenly knows when said fighters have decided to turn around. Etc. Essentially, this change as the effect of "forcing" in a non-organic manner types of combat or tactics (or de-emphasizing others) in a unrealistic fashion. While I think this is probably just a art change without that specific intent, there is a cult of players in this game who think the only way to fight is the left hand turn. I am fine with people fighting however they want. What I dont want is mechanics that attempt to alter the natural the game for the benefit of one style over the other beyond what would already happen simply based on how airplanes behave. Let the characteristics of the planes determine play style and tactics. Dont alter the game environment to curb certain behaviors.
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You're arguing the "realism" of which icons are displayed on your WW2 digital E6b GPS radar MFD?
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You're arguing the "realism" of which icons are displayed on your WW2 digital E6b GPS radar MFD?
Im not defending the rest of it either. But there is a tolerance level/threshold etc. Eventually you add enough crap together and its pushes things too far and makes certain things too hard to do. Additionally, not all unrealistic mechanic affect BFM and tactics. Some of them just make certain things easier, without altering combat. Or they might alter combat so little they can be compensated for without having to bend over backwards.
And yes, I will argue realism in general. This is a flight sim. If realisim was completely meaningless then this wouldn't be the game that it is, and hi tech wouldn't need to even attempt to make flight models etc.
I do not understand the certain members in this community who have been playing a game for over a decade who seem to want to turn this game into war thunder. If you want that, go play war thunder. Its the perfect unrealistic airquake game. You all start from two fields, engage in a climb off to altitude, and no one can ever run froim you because you have map edges and icons that reach out to 20 or 30k so long as someone on your team can see that enemy.
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thats the point though, too late to intercept when your sat in an 88mm, promoting A2A combat.
Sounds to me like shift needs to brush up on his gunning skills. Whenever I'm in bombers I relish the chance to fire my guns in anger.
Bruv, I dont really even fly bombers much. As in, basically never. Doesn't meant I dont have friends who do, or think its silly that when im hunting one I can track him on radar in such a stupid fashion.
Also try not to engage in the nonsense forum tactics of automatically assuming that a player making a complaint is somehow doing it because of some skill deficit.
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As someone suggested, if you think of the icons as information relayed to the pilot from ground controllers who have not only radar but observers who can distinguish fighters from bombers and can plot course over time, the new system isn't that far-fetched. Maybe it just needs some additional delay to add a little more "fog".
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Bruv, I dont really even fly bombers much. As in, basically never. Doesn't meant I dont have friends who do, or think its silly that when im hunting one I can track him on radar in such a stupid fashion.
Its pretty easy to track bombers in AH2. Usually pretty easy to figure out whats a fighter whats a bomber on radar without actually seeing them.
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I like the old dot system better.
The new plane icons make the map too busy. Whenever someone talks, their icon becomes HUGE, so big it obscures the map enough that you can't accurately tell where they were.
If it is staying, remove the fighter/bomber type icon and just make them all littler planes.
I agree with BugShot.
I think the icons are an overkill in information and it makes the map messy.
Other than that keep up the good work <S>
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If you don't like the MA radar, go fly in the AvA. :D
Apart from the no icons, they actually use historical radar settings for both tower and sector. And I know, because I setup the radar settings program originally for the AHI Combat Theatre and then the AvA for AHII. Depending on the year of the scenario loaded for that week, it also sets ranges based on historically accurate radar settings for that period in WWII.
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Altering the amount of info the radar gives you in this case allows players to chase aircraft well beyond LOS, and gives them unreasonable amounts of SA to make decisions with. SA that is FAR outside the bounds of what they would have IRL. This will negatively impact both energy fighters and bombers in particular. Bombers because now players will know exactly where to mass and when, and with what kind of plane to down a bomber. While it may have been possible to to this to a certain extent before, it will now be even more deterministic.
As stated before, under the current system you've got all the same information. The only difference is it currently takes a couple seconds to determine heading, and occasionally a bandit you expect to be a bomber will be a fighter. This is hardly game breaking information. A couple of seconds on a long-term bomber interception is a negligible advantage at best.
For E energy fighters it will mean that planes that are not involved in a fighter will have far too much data to find one and then have lots of data to chase those planes when they try to extend. Having such precise data on fighters that are far beyond visual range will mean that the reset distance for a extending fighter will become ridiculous. It will also mean that everyone for 9000 miles suddenly knows when said fighters have decided to turn around.
Again, outside of icon range, you've gained a couple of seconds over the current information available. Not a gigantic advantage. Under the new system you see the direction the bandit was heading at the last update, where currently you need to see two updates to determine direction.
Wiley.
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I like the new icon system. Please don't change it. The one exception being your personal icon could be much smaller. :banana: