Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Dantoo on October 08, 2016, 03:40:21 AM
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To be in level bombers. with wind. with complex calibration in FSO please. I seem to have forgotten.
What is the point of asking people to go out there with no other purpose than to be a stocking filler? If there are squads that truly think it's fun to fly buffs to a highly defended target, with next to no chance of actually hitting anything - could they please volunteer for 3 weeks of buff rides every time these setups come by?
You could actually win these FSOs by climbing really high, dumping bombs at first sign of trouble and running for home just to get the landing bonus. If you think this is just another crappy whine (I am whining for both sides though) please look at the amount of objects taken out by level bombing in this frame.
Axis flew 9 trios, by my count. for 2 objects. Only one of the pilots didn't land safely so they weren't all shot down.
Allies flew 20 trios for 9 objects.
Now, WTFG to RedBrd who actually knocked down a vh, killed a second object, shot down a 109 and landed safely!
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Buffs in FSO is a tough gig. I felt sorry for the Bostons that tried to hit A13 unescorted. You flew into a two squad cap and it was ugly.
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In FSO, bomber calibration is always a touchy subject. It shouldn't be, but it is. With a new game, and new maps, and base layouts, calibration should be MA standard.
We also have issue where bases are obstructed at times with clouds, and if you have a lower end rig, I hear you may have a tough time actually seeing the target to get bombs out in time.
It's a tough gig when you run into everything the other side has to throw at ya. Given the setup, and how the Axis ran their ops, they had every fighter squad available for defense of targets when the Allies hit.
Hopefully you get fighters in the next 2 frames, then maybe you will not feel like a stocking stuffer.
:salute
JDOG
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Dantoo makes a valid point. Why make it more difficult? OTOH unescorted buff runs really don't make much sense in FSO when you know the target is going to be defended.
No escort to target almost always ends badly. Same for NOE missions.
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It's tough to escort fast bombers with slow planes...
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MA standard calibration would help greatly here.
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Buffs in FSO is a tough gig. I felt sorry for the Bostons that tried to hit A13 unescorted. You flew into a two squad cap and it was ugly.
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There was 2-3 of you pest that tangle with me. Surprise the amount of hits I took.
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There was 2-3 of you pest that tangle with me. Surprise the amount of hits I took.
2 12.7 and 2 7.7 aren't exactly heavy firepower. Death by annoyance
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I think one time we had to do the manual calibration for bombing and I"m pretty sure we all just carpet bombed. Except probably Drone. He's our expert!
Not enough people know how/are interested in manually calibrating.
If that was the setting then imo it's too much for non bombers.
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2 12.7 and 2 7.7 aren't exactly heavy firepower. Death by annoyance
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For one plane it is not but having multiple cons it dose.
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we got wiped out pretty quickly last night. theres a large crater left over, where I dropped my daisy cutter!! JU-87's can be fun, but usually end up dead! and now with concentrated defenses, we're going to have to rethink volunteering for them. I don't mind getting killed, but I do mind when my entire squad gets wiped out.
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It's tough to escort fast bombers with slow planes...
Absolutely! But if that's the case then the bombers need to slow down or offset their course a bit to maintain the interval. Fighters can't do their job from a half sector back. It's a coordination /communications thing. Furthermore the bombers need to make sure their exact location is known to the escorts by posting keypad, heading and altitude every minute or so. Somebody in the group needs to get that duty. There's a lot of that whole fog of war thing that emirates from your own side! Seen it a million times. Missions that have good comms will generally have a better chance of success than those that don't.
However, if the target is defended by an overload of numbers that's all likely to go out the window.
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Buffs in FSO is a tough gig. I felt sorry for the Bostons that tried to hit A13 unescorted. You flew into a two squad cap and it was ugly.
Dantoo makes a valid point. Why make it more difficult? OTOH unescorted buff runs really don't make much sense in FSO when you know the target is going to be defended.
No escort to target almost always ends badly. Same for NOE missions.
Unescorted? I would like to call this out, and correct this as AK's were on scene and assisted in the best manner we possibly could. Flying P40E's last night was fairly difficult considering the circumstances. As pointed out by ImaDot fast buff vs slow planes escort was fairly challenging for both groups.
We were scouting ahead for the buffs for most of the frame just before approaching A13. We were calling out our position over range and monitoring the situation. After as we were approaching A13 buffs were full steam ahead on course pulling away fast. We attempted to cut the corner to catch the buffs as best we could as we did swing wide to avoid a reported 109 patrol. Ak's were just in shadowing distance and at 12-16k while buffs were around 8-10k on approch just off the coast of A13 . We had to maintain our alt as to not get bounced by the impending 109F doom that was soon to rain down upon us. (admittedly who where 5k above us) As the impending 109 swarm descended upon bombers all AK's dove in to help defend.
Id like to point out we had 7 AK's as the escorting squad. Considering the numbers we were facing we had no choice but to tangle with the 109's as best we could to at least try and distract them, there was little we could do vs the sheer numbers we had at A13. To say they were unescorted is untrue
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Unescorted? I would like to call this out, and correct this as AK's were on scene and assisted in the best manner we possibly could. Flying P40E's last night was fairly difficult considering the circumstances. As pointed out by ImaDot fast buff vs slow planes escort was fairly challenging for both groups.
The first group we engaged was unescorted. I believe they were the 56th FG as indicated in the logs.
The second group that came in was escorted by P-40s, I'm assuming that was you guys.
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Thank you for the clarification Nef, I was unaware of the first group, as we did escort Dantoos group as was our mission orders. Just wanting to clarify and convey what Dantoo is referring to is about the difficulty he had with his mission due to manual calibration in heavy cover, Not that he wasn't escorted.
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Unescorted? I would like to call this out, and correct this as AK's were on scene and assisted in the best manner we possibly could. Flying P40E's last night was fairly difficult considering the circumstances. As pointed out by ImaDot fast buff vs slow planes escort was fairly challenging for both groups.
Id like to point out we had 7 AK's as the escorting squad. Considering the numbers we were facing we had no choice but to tangle with the 109's as best we could to at least try and distract them, there was little we could do vs the sheer numbers we had at A13. To say they were escorted is untrue
I didn't know the bombers were using manual calibration last night. In looking at the scores, I was really surprised by how few objects were destroyed at A13, as many bombers made it through. With regard to the bomb calibration, I too think it should be MA standard calibration.
As far as the AK's escort job and the second attack on A13, you got a little unlucky as your bombers were spotted early in the frame by VF-17 scouts. We knew a second set of bombers were out there and guessed your ingress route correctly. We were resetting for that attack and calling in reinforcements just as the bombers arrived. So, some luck and decent strategic guesswork on our side came into play, and there was nothing you could do about that.
Escorting bombers in slow planes is a difficult task and requires a lot of timing and coordination. In cases where the bombers out-perform the fighters, the bomber leads play as big a role in the success of the escort mission as the fighter leads do. For what it's worth, the presence of the P40s was felt. I made a clear pass on the bombers and got one, but had a P40 about 1K behind me the whole time, who kept me from resetting for another pass. By then those fast A20s were turning for home and couldn't be caught. Had the P40s literally been there 30 seconds earlier, our results may have been quite different. It was that close of a thing.
As an additional tip of the cap to the AK's, one of our flight leads was commenting on how disciplined and coordinated several of you were in the fight that ensued at A13. When attacking one of your P40's, the lower one would drag back to the higher group, be cleared and then reset alt. In watching the film, I saw it was the AK's. One of the great things about FSO is knowing you will be up against squads who can handle themselves in a multi-con dogfight, and you guys definitely fit the bill.
A final salute to AKGreyga who must have nursed his half-wing P40 home. I thought you were going down when I got that wing piece! I had to pull off because Vudu was so enthusiastic about dogfighting and was pulling onto my six in his Boston! He ultimately sacrificed himself for ya, so you owe Vudu a cold one! ;) :salute Vudu15 as well.
Hopefully, the upcoming frames will be equally fun but closer score-wise if MA standard calibration is re-instated.
:salute
Kingpin
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My whine isn't about getting there or not. It isn't about defending fighters or escorts. It isn't about the size of the targets.
It's about the point of flying bombers in an fso if the setup basically precludes you hitting anything anyway. Why fly them at all? To what purpose?
For the point tally people.
Each trio is worth 30 points and the rules say at least 12 level bombers have to fly. If they aren't going to hit anything anyway then I suggest that the CICs do this next week:
Fly singles not trios.
Make sure you only fly 12.
Climb to a height where you can make a pass at great speed in a gentle dive.
Dump bombs somewhere near target (don't calibrate it's a waste of time and being in bomb sight keeps you out of guns).
Run home keeping a close close escort near you. Your single will be easier to defend because it is more manouverable.
Gain landing bonus and know there is zero risk of other side bombing stuff down because they won't do it by level bombing.
If they go in low or glide bomb they will still give up more points by deaths than they will gain from target hits.
Would I do that?
Last night I flew to the target in Bostons. It was heavily defended and our escorts had the devil of a time keeping up because speed is all a Boston has.
Attacked over the target, I couldn't release bombs effectively (had calibration) due to attacks so instead of just dumping bombs and going on home as I had earned the right to do I persevered.
Through the fighters, around the ring and back over the target, again after having to make the straight in run to get a good calibration. Dropped with a slight cross wind and hit nothing I carefully aimed at. Went home with about 15 fighters in tow. Another squaddie had the same deal. He didn't get home.
Tally - 2 objects hit from that second pass. 3 bombers lost + landing bonus + pilot bonus not gained = lord knows.
What did it do for the defenders? Not much. A couple of almost defenceless targets to shoot at.
What did it do for me to fly over the target twice and survive to land before frame end. Absolutely bloody nothing because it was pointless taking bombs there in the first place.
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I lost both drones quickly and wasnt going to sit like an idiot trying to calibrate under attack I began to dive out and when cleared by AKGreyga (Thanks by the way <S>) I started my run for home. when I looked back I saw Grey was in for a bad time I reversed in an attempt to bring some enjoyment/help someone whod helped me in turn and of course after my valiant effort was put down by 109Fs. (Which Im not upset about in the least since I went on my own terms.)
Glad to hear Greyga made it home well worth it to me. <S> Kingpin
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Changed calibration to MA standard which will be my default from now on. As per the original design I have enabled the 20mm on the Hurricane II. I have also moved one 4-6 squad (Duxford) to Allied.
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:aok Good to hear. Thanks.
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Yep thanks. :aok
I'm sure difficult calibration has a role in the game somewhere, just not certain where. Maybe B29s over Tokyo or something.
Rgds
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I'm sure difficult calibration has a role in the game somewhere, just not certain where. Maybe B29s over Tokyo or something.
Ya. With nukes.
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Changed calibration to MA standard which will be my default from now on. As per the original design I have enabled the 20mm on the Hurricane II. I have also moved one 4-6 squad (Duxford) to Allied.
The inclusion of the 20mm armed Hurri II seems a little overboard in my opinion. No other aircraft in this setup has close to that level of firepower. It more than doubles the firepower of an aircraft that is unlimited in numbers.
This greatly changes the matchup balance in favor of the Allies. Trying to even up the numbers is a good move. However, I think the 20mm Hurri inclusion is not.
My two cents.
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This greatly changes the matchup balance in favor of the Allies.
I'm sure the CMs are quite aware of that Kingpin. :salute
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The inclusion of the 20mm armed Hurri II seems a little overboard in my opinion. No other aircraft in this setup has close to that level of firepower. It more than doubles the firepower of an aircraft that is unlimited in numbers.
This greatly changes the matchup balance in favor of the Allies. Trying to even up the numbers is a good move. However, I think the 20mm Hurri inclusion is not.
My two cents.
I agree. At least set higher minimums for the P-40s or a max on the Hurricanes.
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I am still trying to understand how adding cannons to the Hurricanes is related to manual calibration bombing that the OP was disgusted with. :headscratch:
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Difficult calibration should be used in the ETO allied heavy buff ops. Also the targets should be something of size like a strat complex so that everyone in the group can bomb on the leader as was done during the war. The 56th has used this tactic as we have only a few guys that bomb regularly and we got spectacular results. Dropping on the lead, managing your salvo size, and also delay allows for good coverage.
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I am still trying to understand how adding cannons to the Hurricanes is related to manual calibration bombing that the OP was disgusted with. :headscratch:
There were other balance issues at play besides the calibration. The logs indicate a large disparity favoring the Axis in terms of lethality based on the total kills per side. I personally think a good portion is due to bad luck by the allies and by extension, unlimited cannon-armed Hurricanes is compensating too much.
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Do the Axis planes like the 109 and 110 have cannons? Sounds like a pretty big firepower advantage over .303s and .50s.
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Spitfire Mk. V's have cannon, and the P-40E is no slouch with six .50's. It's not like they had nothing with a knockout punch. They just weren't utilized properly.
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We had very, very little defense of A6. Not sure what happened but we saw 2 Spits and maybe 4 or 5 P40s. That was from my perspective but I don't think there were any more than that? :headscratch:
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I dunno Kingpin I think you are overstating the difference its going to make. The Hurricane IIC was present in the battle and it was in the original FSO design we ran. It's not like I said "Ok I am going to have the Royal Navy fly F4U-1Cs off of CVs to balance things out". ;)
:salute
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I dunno Kingpin I think you are overstating the difference its going to make. The Hurricane IIC was present in the battle and it was in the original FSO design we ran. It's not like I said "Ok I am going to have the Royal Navy fly F4U-1Cs off of CVs to balance things out". ;)
:salute
OK. Perhaps I am overstating it, but in my opinion, adding the cannon armed Hurri makes it the premium intercept aircraft in the scenario. The Hurri 2 has a mininum 24 number and no maximum. In comparison, the "minimum 24" aircraft for the Axis is the C202. Maybe switching the minimum number to one of the P40 models might balance this move?
I'm normally not one to debate matchups because "perfectly fair" in historical battles is nearly impossible to achieve and I think the CM's do a great job balancing fun, fair and historical. I fly what I am given and do my best. However, in this case I feel a bit like the Axis side is being punished for our having a successful first frame, which from all accounts had more to do with tactics, timing and some luck, rather than the plane matchups.
That said, if the cannon-armed Hurri's were intended to be part of the setup and that is deemed to be a historical and fair matchup, I defer to your judgement.
<S>
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A big :salute to Vudu15 for coming back to "save" his escort. I was trying to get him home in his Boston when I got in real trouble (couldn't keep up with him). I was amazed and thrilled to see him loop over and dive into the fight about the time I lost half a wing. It gave me time to limp away, and land. Not many buff drivers will do that especially if it's not a squaddie. That why I love FSO...The best groups are always flying. :cheers:
As far as the hurricanes with cannons it may be over the top, but the P-40's are really nothing more than a distraction for 109's or C202's. We couldn't catch or turn with the sheep let alone those birds :joystick:. It seems pretty lopsided at the moment.