General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MADe on October 17, 2016, 12:27:18 PM
Title: Friendly Fire
Post by: MADe on October 17, 2016, 12:27:18 PM
me thinks its time to rethink the hitting a friendly with your armament causes you damage.
I understand why it is done but whereas it stops retribution from disgruntled losers, it penelizes folks when others cut in front trying to poach a kill. Now I could care less about the poach, but to take damage because of it is wrong. If that poacher wants the kill so much fine, but he should pay the price for flying into my bullet stream, not moi. I had this happen like 3 times last log...........................
:salute
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Lusche on October 17, 2016, 12:31:32 PM
You have control over your own fire. You don't control that of other people. You would have to treat any unknown 'friendly as an enemy'. Everybody can shoot down your B-29 or 262 on the final for lulz. Or because they 'know' your a spy.
Is the mayhem worth it?
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Drane on October 17, 2016, 12:52:10 PM
How about no damage to either player on the same team that shoot each other?
Worst a friendly could do to you is shield the enemy from your shot.
When you shoot a friendly the stats get recorded so Lusche can make some charts. :cheers:
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 17, 2016, 01:14:43 PM
I really wish it was no damage period.
A bunch of times I try to shoot an enemy plane that is shooting at a friendly tank, my bullets that don't hit the enemy hit my friendly tanks and I die.
Another example is shooting at an enemy who is shooting your friendly bombers. I shoot enemy plane at dead 6, the bullets that miss enemy plane hit my friendly bombers, I die.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Wiley on October 17, 2016, 01:20:44 PM
A bunch of times I try to shoot an enemy plane that is shooting at a friendly tank, my bullets that don't hit the enemy hit my friendly tanks and I die.
Another example is shooting at an enemy who is shooting your friendly bombers. I shoot enemy plane at dead 6, the bullets that miss enemy plane hit my friendly bombers, I die.
...And you don't feel that it should be part of gameplay to not have to worry about what's behind the bandit? Seems a bit cheesy to me.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 17, 2016, 01:33:26 PM
In real life they would both die, so whats the difference?
Having been behind the gun 'in real life', the difference is that both your target, anything between you and your target, and every possible thing behind your target that could be affected by your fire, are ALL considerations before pulling the trigger.
...And you don't feel that it should be part of gameplay to not have to worry about what's behind the bandit? Seems a bit cheesy to me.
Wiley.
Ditto.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: guncrasher on October 17, 2016, 02:06:47 PM
I think some people need to use a little more SA. I am a crappy player, but it's rare when I hit a friendly that jumps in front of me. and I love to furball.
semp
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: MADe on October 17, 2016, 02:13:34 PM
You have control over your own fire. You don't control that of other people. You would have to treat any unknown 'friendly as an enemy'. Everybody can shoot down your B-29 or 262 on the final for lulz. Or because they 'know' your a spy.
Is the mayhem worth it?
point being, the poacher is taking advantage of the fact that he will suffer no consequences. You say I do not have to shoot, you negate the fact that the poacher is entering the active bullet stream, at which point there is only 1 consequence, you pay the price.
As far as the mayhem, abso=fuccccing-lutely. Peeps have fallen into patterns, WAR is mayhem, this will strengthen squads and create the next level of game play. And if a snot nose decides to act the child, then he can suffer some of his own style of play. Squad retribution..................
Personally, if hitech would let me, I'd make a map where its no holds barred, and capturing bases got you use of aircraft, but that's me...............
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: MADe on October 17, 2016, 02:15:37 PM
I think some people need to use a little more SA. I am a crappy player, but it's rare when I hit a friendly that jumps in front of me. and I love to furball.
semp
sorry but this is a cop out, we sit in front of a video monitor, not in an immersive cockpit where sensory input is all encompassing.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: waystin2 on October 17, 2016, 02:20:31 PM
I think some people need to use a little more SA. I am a crappy player, but it's rare when I hit a friendly that jumps in front of me. and I love to furball.
semp
QFT :aok Another thing that helps is move out and away from any other friendlies. Then you do not have to worry about anything but the enemy.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Lusche on October 17, 2016, 02:26:35 PM
As far as the mayhem, abso=fuccccing-lutely. Peeps have fallen into patterns, WAR is mayhem, this will strengthen squads and create the next level of game play.
Only if you consider griefing and highly disruptive behaviour as a level of gameplay. It just breaks the MA gameplay, as you can trust NObody. Each new account would be a prospective enemy. Either because a new player doesn't know better or because it's just a bored vet having fun messing with you. Instead of yesterdays long farewell roundtrip in my 262 I could have simply smashed some 'friendly' goons and M3's. Nobody would have been prepared for that.
Oh, and currently for the most part of the day, it's rare to have even 2 players of the same squad online.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 17, 2016, 02:34:50 PM
Having been behind the gun 'in real life', the difference is that both your target, anything between you and your target, and every possible thing behind your target that could be affected by your fire, are ALL considerations before pulling the trigger.
Ditto.
I don't really see your point.
In real life other objects/planes get hit and die from friendly fire. It wouldn't work well that was in AH.
In AH the player who shoots dies, not the friendly, or planes behind you that got hit. So shooting a friendly damages you, not the other way around.
The difference is, it should do 0 damage to either, considering the effect in AH is the opposite of real life.
It's not like this happens a lot. I'm just pointing to a couple of examples that happen on pure accident rather than spite.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Wiley on October 17, 2016, 02:38:47 PM
In real life other objects/planes get hit and die from friend fire.
In AH the player who shoots dies, not the friendly, or planes behind you that got hit.
The difference is, it should do 0 damage to either, considering the effect in AH is the opposite of real life.
It's not like this happens a lot. I'm just point to a few examples that happen on pure accident rather than spite.
So people should be able to spray at anything enemy with no thought to repercussions or what's around them.
I disagree. You can't have it harm the shootee for the reasons listed above by Lusche, but IMO it's silly to be able to just hose down a friendly in the quest to get the kill on the bandit in front of him. Shooting a friendly should be an undesirable act.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: redcatcherb412 on October 17, 2016, 02:41:49 PM
In real life other objects/planes get hit and die from friend fire. In AH the player who shoots dies, not the friendly, or planes behind you that got hit.
makes sense for gameplay it should either be no harm no foul for shooter or recipient or damages or deaths inflicted on the receiver of the fire with maybe a perk penalty for the shooter
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: SPKmes on October 17, 2016, 02:46:17 PM
Problem is, if there is nothing, then the bumble bee trail on a con will just be worse...heck man you could have three or four cons all on top of each other making it look like one con... it is almost like that now at times....it is an annoyance the way it is now at times for sure...but the on the other side of things, it is probably more detrimental to game play if it wasn't like it is...nothing will be right... you can't help some types... the funny thing about this feature is that it shows how off I am when aim I at cons...cause if a friendly is close I can nail said friendly with vigor but not lay a shot on the con :rofl :lol
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 17, 2016, 03:06:11 PM
So people should be able to spray at anything enemy with no thought to repercussions or what's around them.
I disagree. You can't have it harm the shootee for the reasons listed above by Lusche, but IMO it's silly to be able to just hose down a friendly in the quest to get the kill on the bandit in front of him. Shooting a friendly should be an undesirable act.
Wiley.
I guess I see your point.
You win this time :aok
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 17, 2016, 04:51:04 PM
Having played a game (Air Warrior) that had a different system in place to deal with team killing, I prefer AH's method.
In AH, you're only penalized once for shooting someone else on your side. In AW the penalty could last for 24 hours and depending on how many you TK, the penalty (PNG - Persona Non Grata) could last up to a few weeks. Now imagine not being able to fly a fighter for 24 hours or longer with AW's system.
Forgot how WB handled it.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Shuffler on October 17, 2016, 05:14:28 PM
It is extremely rare when I take hits for hitting a friendly. I see no issue with how it is currently. It makes those behind you much more careful when shooting over your shoulder.
It is also a good tool to thin out a batch of bad guys behind you.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: BuckShot on October 17, 2016, 07:47:23 PM
Please leave it. It's more fun to kill shoot yourself than to bail when you need a new plane or want to get back to the hanger quickly. I don't care about score.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Oldman731 on October 17, 2016, 07:47:41 PM
It is extremely rare when I take hits for hitting a friendly. I see no issue with how it is currently. It makes those behind you much more careful when shooting over your shoulder.
It is also a good tool to thin out a batch of bad guys behind you.
Agreed.
- oldman
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: guncrasher on October 17, 2016, 08:05:16 PM
a couple of weeks ago the pigs were in fso flying bomber in close formation. when the fighters attacked i think we lost 1/2 our bombers to friendly fire.
semp
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: The Fugitive on October 17, 2016, 08:50:46 PM
Leave it as is. Part of playing the.game is knowing when to pull the trigger and when not to.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Dobs on October 17, 2016, 09:01:23 PM
Both take damage....just my 2 cents...
15 second mark....watch someone fly between my and the bandit that I'm in the control zone on. If I had the trigger down....I would have paid the price not the dude who flew between my guns and the bandit.
Last night I'm D400 closing fast behind a guy who is breaking uphill, I pull for the shot....shoot..and kill myself. Why? Because someone came in for a diving HO on the bandit and the timing was perfect...I'm dead, bandit lives....and Mr. Oblivious flies on. It wasn't like they were the engaged fighter first...they were 2nd into the fight. So lets make it so both guys take the damage and maybe people will be more careful of inserting themselves between a bandit and live guns.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: JunkyII on October 17, 2016, 09:05:43 PM
As some have already said, I don't get enough killshots for it to matter to me and normally when I do get it, It's a dumb situation where I don't see the friendly near my target...so bad SA.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: lunatic1 on October 18, 2016, 12:38:21 AM
if somebody cuts in front of you, gripe at them-after they are trying to steal your kill-don't blame it on the game mechanics
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Lazerr on October 18, 2016, 12:52:03 AM
its fine the way it is, next topic
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Clifra Jones on October 18, 2016, 12:31:27 PM
Oh lord, not again!
As stated by Hitech: It is the shooters responsibility to make sure it is clear to shoot! (or something like this) I have not time to look it up.Its been said so many times before.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: colmbo on October 18, 2016, 03:17:58 PM
Spent a lot of time in another couple of sims with kill shooter off. There was only one guy that was a problem (way back in Mac Air Warrior) and he was dealt with quickly.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Traveler on October 20, 2016, 12:57:09 PM
Spent a lot of time in another couple of sims with kill shooter off. There was only one guy that was a problem (way back in Mac Air Warrior) and he was dealt with quickly.
agree, it should be as in real live, friendly fire happens. People that abuse it can be delt with.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Lusche on October 20, 2016, 03:15:35 PM
The problems: The abuse has already happened, and you have to prove it. Additional workload for HTC. I could have easily gone on a funny rampage before I cancelled my account, without any consequences.
As for other sims, they have a lot smaller community and a somewhat different environment. Just as killshooter off is probably not much of a problem in AvA or FSO and other special events, but the much larger, unpersonal & chaotic MA is a very much different thing. Just think how often folks are slinging mud at each other even on the country channel...
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Gman on October 20, 2016, 03:36:52 PM
Funny how many are complaining about shades and poor community manners/etc, yet on the other foot requesting killshooter be off? HAH. I'd love to see just one week of that, there would be more whine/complaints/rage quit posts than the last 5 years combined in those 7 days. So many friendly fire attacks that I think they would perhaps outstrip shooting at red targets. Terrible idea IMO.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Traveler on October 21, 2016, 08:27:31 AM
As for other sims, they have a lot smaller community and a somewhat different environment.
Please define community, are you talking about # of people on this BBS or are you talking about paid subcriptions, people that might actually be playing the game? The other night in the MA it was a total of about 30 people. Friendly Fire is a part of combat. This is supposed to be a combat simulator with aircraft and tanks and ships. Other sims track friendly fire automatically, there programming staff doesn't get involved, it's not work for other sims to track friendly fire and punish the abusers.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: hitech on October 21, 2016, 09:18:58 AM
Please define community, are you talking about # of people on this BBS or are you talking about paid subcriptions, people that might actually be playing the game? The other night in the MA it was a total of about 30 people. Friendly Fire is a part of combat. This is supposed to be a combat simulator with aircraft and tanks and ships. Other sims track friendly fire automatically, there programming staff doesn't get involved, it's not work for other sims to track friendly fire and punish the abusers.
We already have Friendly Fire as part of combat.
HiTech
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Zimme83 on October 21, 2016, 09:22:50 AM
So you want friendly fire to be enabled but also punish players who abuse it... But that is just how it works, the punishment is delivered instantly and makes sure that the player doesn't do it again...
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Traveler on October 21, 2016, 09:27:15 AM
So you want friendly fire to be enabled but also punish players who abuse it... But that is just how it works, the punishment is delivered instantly and makes sure that the player doesn't do it again...
Not exactly. If you happen to be working as a team or on a squad and you hit your own man, you hurt your entire unit, not just yourself, perhaps he was fling the C47. You get it?
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Zimme83 on October 21, 2016, 09:37:17 AM
If it would work like it does in real life the team would still loose a plane so the only difference is which one that is going down. Instead of having an idiot killing your goon just for fun and spoiling the base take the idiot goes to tower if he tries to kill a friendly. Everyone is happy.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Traveler on October 21, 2016, 09:48:20 AM
If it would work like it does in real life the team would still loose a plane so the only difference is which one that is going down. Instead of having an idiot killing your goon just for fun and spoiling the base take the idiot goes to tower if he tries to kill a friendly. Everyone is happy.
I realize that there are those idiots that might want to fire on friendly, I'm talking about the accidental friendly fire that does happen in combat, trust me, as a combact medic I saw it more times than I cared too. But AH is just a game and the current solution is the only one that from a purly business aspect HTC could use.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: redcatcherb412 on October 21, 2016, 10:12:50 AM
I'm talking about the accidental friendly fire that does happen in combat, trust me, as a combact medic I saw it more times than I cared too.
So very true. As a personal recipient of CAS friendly fire I have nothing but admiration for the combat medic who had to leave cover and deal with my SCW and shot out leg while he was under fire, and keep me alive for 8 hrs because it was too hot for medivac. That is a special type of bravery they just don't get a medal for. I got a PH for the bad luck to get hit, the medic got no medal, just more guys like me to take care of. :salute Traveler and any medic, corpsman brave enough to have all his work be in combat under direct fire.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Zimme83 on October 21, 2016, 10:25:11 AM
It's irrelevant how it's work IRL, i know there are a lot of friendly fire incidents but as you said, this is a game and a game sacrifice realism for playability and fun. We dont go through hours of briefing and preparation before we launch etc. This is not a simulation of real air war, its a game...
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Traveler on October 21, 2016, 10:48:37 AM
:salute Traveler and any medic, corpsman brave enough to have all his work be in combat under direct fire.
Thank you, I was in Vietnam and we too had hot days or sometimes so much cover over head that we couldn't get men out or supplies in. The guys in my unit did a great job of providing me cover and I can say that I never felt totally exposed. When I did get wounded, I zigged when I should have zagged, and evaced they did a pretty good job first aid wise. I was back two weeks later. two weeks of clean sheets, hot chow, hot showers, flush toilets and the best of all, female nurses. We, me and the guy I was moving towards to help, were brought in from the field on the 28 day of a 6 week patrol in the delta, lots of rice paddies, to say we stank was an understatement, but the smiles never left the faces of the nurses preping us for exam, god bless em.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Gman on October 21, 2016, 04:32:19 PM
Quote
Not saying you don't, however, the way it is represented in AH is if I shoot and strike a friendly I take the damage, that is not how it is in combat.
I do agree with your points Traveler, and think that if it weren't for bad apples, it probably would be great for gameplay. Who knows better about fratricide/blue on blue than you and other vets posting here about it. I just think that the negatives would outweigh the positives, I can think of a number of players banned over the years that would love to rejoin just to shoot down and grief friendlies for as long as they could before being ejected - then getting a newIP/VPN/Account and doing it all over again. Just one or two idiots would have the game in an uproar in a day or two, I'd bet it all on that.
Imagine all the work put in for an FSO or major Scenario, and just one tard could fry the entire event by blasting friendlies in the back. Again, it'd only take one to ruin the entire event, or MA for a day, and it'd be a repeatable stunt with the anonymity tools anyone can get for a few bucks.
Nightmare is what it'd be, hands down, and not because it's a bad concept IMO, but only because it would be FAR to open to abuse, and it would give griefers a new and major way to screw with things.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: guncrasher on October 21, 2016, 05:36:20 PM
fso and scenarios already have friendly kill enabled. you can shoot friendlies. and i have seen entire bomber squadrons kill each other while defending against fighters all of course by accident.
anybody remember what's his name dick move shooting santa down on xmas a few years ago?
maybe you guys should ask yourselves any hitech has this seeing now.
semp
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Becinhu on October 21, 2016, 08:01:44 PM
I have killed santa once or twice over the years. JG44 did santa hunts. Of course roasting the fat man got you booted to desktop.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Canspec on October 21, 2016, 08:04:52 PM
Anyone that friendly fires can then only fly pink airplanes..... :old:
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: dmdchief on October 21, 2016, 08:23:59 PM
Not exactly. If you happen to be working as a team or on a squad and you hit your own man, you hurt your entire unit, not just yourself, perhaps he was fling the C47. You get it?
Either way you hurt your entire team or squad. Think about that.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: MADe on October 23, 2016, 01:18:19 PM
hmmmmm
no one really addressed my pov, just cryed baby................
One more time, pilots now use the friendly fire thing against there own. A spy can cut in front an cause damage to a perceived enemy as easily as if he did the shooting himself. A pilot will willingly cut off another because there is no consequence for the action. You have chosen to blame my skill level or lack there of, because of the deliberate actions of another and my lack of ability to respond fast enough.......
The cop out excuse is just that. Let me see now, oh the friendly just flew into my bullets, let me stop firing............really!
oh well.. :salute
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Zimme83 on October 23, 2016, 01:48:01 PM
You can still control the outcome by having a little SA and not fire when you are risking to hit a friendly, people often cut infront of each other in the conga line so it is a must to be aware of the friendlies.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: lunatic1 on October 23, 2016, 02:03:36 PM
quit holding down the trigger hehe have you tried GV'ing-people kill shot themselves all the time-shooting what they think is a bad guy-turns out to bea a friendly-but you don't see them in here complaining about kill shooter--if you turn kill shooter off them that leaves everyone open to killing the own countrymen,,,then you will see a lot of people in here complaining about that--killshooter is fine the way it is...just pay attention :joystick:
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Shuffler on October 23, 2016, 07:15:27 PM
One more time, pilots now use the friendly fire thing against there own.
A pilot will willingly cut off another because there is no consequence for the action. You have chosen to blame my skill level or lack there of, because of the deliberate actions of another and my lack of ability to respond fast enough.......
The cop out excuse is just that. Let me see now, oh the friendly just flew into my bullets, let me stop firing............really!
oh well.. :salute
Sounds like you may be starting to understand. If it is taking you that long to kill a plane they may think you need help. If they ignore the situation, the plane you have not killed may kill them while they are after another.
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: hitech on October 24, 2016, 08:53:47 AM
no one really addressed my pov, just cryed baby................
One more time, pilots now use the friendly fire thing against there own. A spy can cut in front an cause damage to a perceived enemy as easily as if he did the shooting himself. A pilot will willingly cut off another because there is no consequence for the action. You have chosen to blame my skill level or lack there of, because of the deliberate actions of another and my lack of ability to respond fast enough.......
The cop out excuse is just that. Let me see now, oh the friendly just flew into my bullets, let me stop firing............really!
oh well.. :salute
Nice straw man, nope we blame your skill level because only YOU can effect the out come. The other guy you claim is cutting you off 95% of the time can not even see you are there because he is above you diving in.
HiTech
Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Becinhu on October 24, 2016, 10:52:31 AM
Don't play with your food.
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Title: Re: Friendly Fire
Post by: Zimme83 on October 24, 2016, 11:02:44 AM
Nice straw man, nope we blame your skill level because only YOU can effect the out come. The other guy you claim is cutting you off 95% of the time can not even see you are there because he is above you diving in.
HiTech
And as said, only thing one have to do to avoid kill-shoot yourself is having a tiny bit of SA and not pull the trigger when a friendly is in danger of being hit. If a player cannot avoid that how would he be able to avoid killing a bunch of friendlies by mistake with friendly fire enabled..?