Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Krusty on November 30, 2016, 03:39:32 PM
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With the 110C remodel in the works, it's logical to assume/guess that the 110G is also coming very shortly on its heels.
There is a subtle change we need when that happens. In short, we need to be able to separate out certain weapons options so that they can be enabled/disabled in scenarios and SEA use. Very specifically we need to be able to represent the early 110Gs and also keep the bomber hunter and ground attack loadouts as viable historic options. For example, in the past we've tried to run 1943 era setups with 110Gs and lancasters, but those 30mm were too much of a problem. Also it's been a problem in designing scenarios and events in the past when the ground attack 110Gs were super effective at taking down buildings and vehicles because of those 30mm.
Here is the solution:
The Bf110G underwent a number of major armament changes in its lifetime. Its performance was basically the same as the engines did not change, but it started out nearly the same as the 110C, but then increased in a number of definite stages for various reasons at different timeframes of the war. I will briefly summarize them and then lay out a way to allow each of these as needed. MA use wouldn't be impacted much if at all.
First: The initial loadout was 4x MG17s in the upper nose and 2x MG151/20 in the cabin floor. These were belt fed and an improvement over the MG/FF of the 110C4.
These were, however, severely underpowered for attacking aircraft. They were used to good effect in ground attack roles but when the 110Gs had to go up against bombers they struggled in the lean times before the 30mm were available. Often removed from air to air units entirely as other weapons were added on.
They removed the 7mms in the nose and put in a big under-belly gunpod that looked like a rowboat. This had essentially the 2x20mm gunpod we have now, but with more drag. Total loadout: 4x20mm cannon at the expense of centerline ord. This loadout was undesirable in most ways, but it was the only way for quite some time to up the cannon loadout against heavy bombers. Later, the gunpod became a little more streamlined, but still had a major drag penalty. I suggest we just limit ourselves to the later gunpod as a compromise (it's already in-game).
Once the 30mms came around those gunpod loadouts were instantly gone never to return. The 30mms more than made up for them and there were still the MG151/20s in the cabin floor as well. This is similar to our default loadout for the 110G right now.
In terms of AH we need to allow for those historic loadouts while also allowing external ords of whatever variety you need for the mission at hand.
Here we have a small problem. We need to be able to separate the options out so that some can be disabled for SEA/scenario use to get an era-appropriate loadout. However, the gunpod makes a little bit of an issue. You could create some unhistorical combinations with it, BUT Hitech has said before (re: US planes with 2x DT and 10x rkt) that he won't limit it to absolutely historic combinations, as long as each loadout was historically accurate. That allows the players to mix and match within historical possibilities. For example, you'd never see a 110G ground attacker with wing bombs and 30mm that strafed buildings into oblivion, or one with the gunpod used for strafing and wing bombs to attack towns/fields. These happen all the time in AH and this wouldn't stop that for MA use. SEA/events would be able to disable loadouts as needed to lock in a certain historical setup.
To that end I see no easy way other than making that gunpod a separate loadout for the external ord. If we don't do this, then we have to have each of the above combinations with AND without both bomb types and/or the gunpod. That's how AH is right now, and with the new sub options required it would get VERY long very fast. The solution is very easy, just split up the loadouts to their proper arms trees in the hangar. What I am suggesting doesn't change anything you can do right now already. It just changes where they are in the hangar options.
PROPOSED INTERNAL LOADOUTS FOR HANGAR:
1) Default: 4x MG17, 2x MG151/20 (+ rear gun assumed on all below)
2) 2x MG151/20 in nose, no MG17 (smoothed over gunports)
3) 2x MG151/20 and 2x MK108 30mm in nose
CENTRAL EXTERNAL HARDPOINT LOADOUTS
1) 2x MG151/20 in slim gunpod (i.e. currently modeled version)
2) 2x 250kg bombs
3) 2x 500kg bombs
WING EXTERNAL HARDPOINT LOADOUTS (no changes)
1) 4x 250kg bombs
2) 2x WGr 210 rockets
3) 4x WGr 210 rockets
4) 2x drop tank
TL;DR: Move the 20mm gunpod and the bombs to their own list. Add a 20mm-only nose option. Add a 4x7mm nose option. Historic reasons. Benefits us all. Scenarios cheer, etc.
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Well argued.
:aok
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Very nice proposal, makes sense imho
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In the bomber-destroyer role there were also 110G's fitted with MG 151/20 cannons in place of the MK 108s in the upper nose. This particular plane is carrying six 20mm cannon.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/110G-6MG151.jpg)
It was also a common configuration for 110 night fighters because the MK 108s produced blindingly large muzzle flashes.
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What no luv for the 37mm central gondie??? :furious :furious :furious
:salute
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predator, those were a stop-gap step and not as common. Especially for the night fighters because the glare. They much preferred no guns in top of the nose and all guns under the belly. That was the best for them. For the sake of keeping it "mainstream" and with as few changes as possible while still allowing for scenario disabling of different loadouts, I left those out.
Morf, it wasn't really an option. It was used on an earlier model of the 110C but only about 7 were built. The 37mm wasn't a good gun for these aircraft.
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More Krusty-nonsense. The 110G-2/R1 and R4 carried the 3.7 cm Bordkanone. They served first with PzJgSt/ZG1 in late 1942 and later fought at Kursk in the anti-tank role. They also served as bomber-destroyers. Photographic evidence is ample.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Bf-110G1r1.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/bf110gr1.jpeg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/Bf_110_148_37mm_Orel.jpg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/Bf110G_2R1_PzJgStZG_1.jpg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/40fuo44.jpg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/Bf_110_146_37mm_Uman.jpg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/scan0027.jpg)
(http://i393.photobucket.com/albums/pp20/skbluestem/scan0030.jpg)
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^^^^
Thats what I was talking about! The 110C had the Mk 101 30mm installed in a few,mostly to attack shipping but the 110G's used the 37mm in both air and ground roles! Imagine 66 rds of BK3.7 rounds cental mounted... :x
IIRC there were 6 rounds loaded and the rear gunner had access upto anothe 10 boxes of 6 rounds.
While the 110C with the 30mm might have been rare I dont think the 110G's with 37mm guns were rare at all!
:salute
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This 3.7 cm toting 110G also has MG 151/20 upper nose guns, so it's an R4 variant with the MK 108s replaced by MG 151s. Makes a lot of sense when your main armament is a high velocity gun. The MK 108 would be quite useless at the range you want to be at with the 3.7 cm.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/bf110gr1.jpeg)
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Predator, you cherry pick your data. Just because a picture exists doesn't prove your point. Nor does it require you to insult me.
to reference a book as listed on falkeins blog,
This heavily armed Bf 110 variant was trialed both for gound attack duties on the Eastern Front and in daylight battles against USAAF bombing raids without enjoying any major success in either role! Evaluation involving several aircraft was carried by the Versuchskommando für Panzerkämpfung (anti-tank trials unit) at Rechlin and moving to Russia for field evaluation in April 1943. The evaluation was apparently not favourable for this version and it was then turned over to Erprobungskommando 25 for evaluation against USAAF bombers. The top speed was found to be only slightly higher than that of the B-17s and B-24s and lateral stability was poor which impared the aiming. A total of 43 G-3 and 107 G-2 airframes were scheduled for modification but only a handful have been confirmed as being accepted by ZG 76 early in 1944.
("Messerschmitt Bf 110", Ron Mackay, Crowood, Page 121)
EDIT2: On second review it is "possible" the upper 20mm in that picture were on a later test airframe that was one of the few that ZG76 took. They'd be around during the 30mm Mk108 era. I've edited my post-script.
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I'm with Krusty on this one, not the few and far between should be modeled.
The Fw190A8 with 30mm should have it's 13mm removed in the R2 version.
The problem with the 110 as buff destroyer version is that most bombers just fly away from them, flying in formation at WEP/100%, which make them less effective than they where.
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See Rule #4
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The primary use of this gun in AH would be for ground attack, not chasing bombers.
...er....sez who....?
- oldman
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so predator's just devolved into insult spewing. Frak if I know what I did to piss him off, other than to show him how few of his requested loadout actually flew.
Save: That's one way... However I don't know if we really have the R2 armor on that. It seems to get damaged super easily in the areas that an R2 would be more armored. It's a different topic, but I'd much rather have a proper A8 without all the weight modeled in. I suppose we could do with both at some point.
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...er....sez who....?
- oldman
Says physics. The 110G has enough problems catching bombers without the added drag of a BK. Save is right about that part. Against vehicles otoh. a 110 with 66 rounds of 37 mm is a very attractive prospect.
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so predator's just devolved into insult spewing. Frak if I know what I did to piss him off, other than to show him how few of his requested loadout actually flew.
1. I didn't request that loadout. Morfiend did.
2. You haven't shown me squat.
Fact remains that the 110G flew with the BK in squadron strength or more on multiple fronts and both in anti-tank and bomber-destroyer roles. That's more than enough to qualify for inclusion based on previous statements from HTC. Whether it was successful or not in real life is irrelevant. Your personal opinion is irrelevant. As is mine for that matter, or even this whole thread. I'll be very surprised if HiTech bothers to read this thread, and even more surprised if he makes any decisions based on it.
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Sounds closer to the Spitfire Mk V 4 cannon argument. Unless they were used by more than just a staffel or so I would say no. Very rare armament packages should not be made optional in AH. Stick to the ones that saw some significant service.
...not that I think the 37mm would be all that useful on the Bf 110G I don't think it would be.
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Please help me understand the mentality of people who want to exclude something like this from a game?
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Please help me understand the mentality of people who want to exclude something like this from a game?
The simple mentality that people like things that are close to reality, not t3h uberz lazors rap t3h n00bz. I'm tempted to listen more to Krusty than you for the simple reason that you couldn't make an argument without personal insults. If it didn't see legitimate use, it doesn't belong here. You've posted a bunch of pictures of front-ends. Do you have any context for these? Any reason for us not to think these are a bunch of pictures of the same 3 airframes in testing?
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Close to reality in the MA? lol That's what scenarios are for. We have the Ta 152 of which only 43 were made and who knows how many actually saw combat. We have the F4U-1C (200 made), Me 163 (370), King Tiger (492), Jagdpanther (400), Wirbelwind (80-100) and Ostwind (44). The in-game P-38L has dive flaps despite the fact that the C-54 carrying the kits across the Atlantic was shot down in a friendly fire incident. We know the 110G-2/R1 and R4 flew with at least two heavy-fighter wings, ZG1 and ZG76. We know they fought at Kursk in the anti tank role and over the skies of Germany and Romania against the 8th and 9th AAF.
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Close to reality in the MA? lol That's what scenarios are for. We have the Ta 152 of which only 43 were made and who knows how many actually saw combat. We have the F4U-1C (200 made), Me 163 (370), King Tiger (492), Jagdpanther (400), Wirbelwind (80-100) and Ostwind (44). The in-game P-38L has dive flaps despite the fact that the C-54 carrying the kits across the Atlantic was shot down in a friendly fire incident. We know the 110G-2/R1 and R4 flew with at least two heavy-fighter wings, ZG1 and ZG76. We know they fought at Kursk in the anti tank role and over the skies of Germany and Romania against the 8th and 9th AAF.
Can you cite a source for this? Pictures without context are meaningless. Krusty has cited his source.
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No he hasn't. He quoted a quote from a quote from a different forum.
The testing of the BK 3.7 started with ZG1 in late 1942. More than a year later ZG 76 were still using the gun: "By spring 1944 I./ ZG 76 were based around Prague, and operating a number of Bf 110G-2/R1 types with an underslung BK 3,7 37 mm cannon in a conformal-mount ventral gun pod."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zerst%C3%B6rergeschwader_76
From John Weal's book "Messerschmitt Bf 110 Zerstorer Aces of World War 2":
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/110bkZG76.JPG)
I posted a better version of this image earlier in this thread and it is pretty clear all the 110s are armed with the BK 3.7. Due to overexposure we can only see the barrel on the closest one but the bulge under the fuselage is clearly visible on all of them.
In late 1943 the BK 3.7 was clearly still also in use by ZG 1.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QQ0KVNcyMZc/Vl9XqdjOWTI/AAAAAAAAU9s/6U13TYvxE-k/s640/1ZGossmannMG.jpg)
Bf 110 G-2 of 1./ZG 1 seen in Bad Lippspringe during August/September 1943 equipped with a BK 3,7 cm belly cannon. Left is Flugzeugführer Lt. Manfred Thewes, later Staffelkapitän 1./ZG 26 and then 1./JG 6 in the Reichsverteidigung. Next to him five victory ace Staffelkapitän Oblt. Rüdiger Ossmann KIA on 08 October 1943 in combat with US Viermots 20 km east of of the Dümmersee at the controls of Bf 110 G-2 "S9+AH" WNr.120047.
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The in-game P-38L has dive flaps despite the fact that the C-54 carrying the kits across the Atlantic was shot down in a friendly fire incident.
It's modeled perfectly. It has the button, but the dive-flaps themselve are missing / don't do anything.
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Says physics. The 110G has enough problems catching bombers without the added drag of a BK. Save is right about that part. Against vehicles otoh. a 110 with 66 rounds of 37 mm is a very attractive prospect.
Without meaning to be rude, the photo you post above appears to show 110s hunting B17s...and the text accompanying the photo seems to agree that this is what those crazy 110 pilots were trying to do.
- oldman
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I think he was specifically referring to hunting bombers in game where the buffs cruise at full throttle.
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Correct. In real life they were effective as long as the buffs were unescorted.
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Only 32 Bf 110 G-2/R1 were built + unknown conversions (if any). A further 16 /R5 were built which may have had the BK 3,7 as well (conflicting sources).
Is there any evidence for 250kg underwing bombs ?
-> I've only seen 2x 50kg under each wing.
Plus it was possible to have 300l DT + rockets, probably also 300l DT + 50kg bombs - they didn't use the same atachment points. Drop tank attachment point was between Balkenkreuz and engine, bombs/rockets near Balkenkreuz. This outer-wing placement likely limited it to 2x50kg.
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While I am a big fan of the 110G, the reading I am doing all says the 3.7cm cannon tests were a failure and not proceeded with. While I would love to give it a try myself, I can't see HTC spending time modelling this when it was a failure. Add to that the 2 test series (anti-tank and anti-bomber) of the 3.7cm Flak 18 gun would be using different ammo - the AP ammo that we currently see in the Stuka cannon for anti-tank, and regular HE ammo for anti-bomber, which requires 2 different centerline loadout spots in the hanger.
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For the 110G it was likely an ETC 501 rack capable of carrying either a 500kg bomb (depending on mounting location, limited to 250kg), or a drop tank of varying size. These became de facto standard from mid 1943 onward.
In theory, the 110 should be able to carry up to 2000kg of ordnance, but I've never seen anything to suggest that the 110G carried bombs larger than the 50kg bombs on the wings.
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While I am a big fan of the 110G, the reading I am doing all says the 3.7cm cannon tests were a failure and not proceeded with. While I would love to give it a try myself, I can't see HTC spending time modelling this when it was a failure.
That's not really relevant. We have the Me 410 with the 5 cm BK. It was also a "failure". Heh many planes already in the game like the 110C that's being updated right now weren't exactly success stories either. But they're fun in a game.
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Folks can play IL-2 1946 to get their "planes that hardly flew" fix...Do335s, 4 cannon Spits, Ki-84s with 30mm cannon ect...
Aces High does not now and should not in the future include ord options that were rare or just one-offs.
...and so far you have not provided any evidence of the usage levels of the 37mm on the Bf 110. Just a few photos and the unit that flew them.
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Aces High does not now and should not in the future include ord options that were rare or just one-offs.
Yes it sure does include that now, and has done so for a decade or more. We have the 5 cm BK for the 410 (just as rare or even more so than the 3.7 BK for the 110). We have the 20 mm cannon armed F4U-1C. We have the Ta 152. We have 75 mm B-25s. We have 45 mm armed Sturmoviks. We have B20 armed La-7s. If we include bomb loadouts we have a lot more rare options like the 1.8 ton Stuka bomb. This list is not exhaustive mind you, just off the top of my head.
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Yes it sure does include that now, and has done so for a decade or more. We have the 5 cm BK for the 410 (just as rare or even more so than the 3.7 BK for the 110). We have the 20 mm cannon armed F4U-1C. We have the Ta 152. We have 75 mm B-25s. We have 45 mm armed Sturmoviks. We have B20 armed La-7s. If we include bomb loadouts we have a lot more rare options like the 1.8 ton Stuka bomb. This list is not exhaustive mind you, just off the top of my head.
1. 200 F4U-1C's were built.
2. TA 152 used by 2 squadrons, Jg 11 and Jg 301 - a mix of C-1 and H-1 types
3. B25H with 75mm cannon used extensively and successfully in the Pacific by both the USAAF and US Navy (designated PBJ-1H)
4. Il-2 in AH only has 23mm or 37mm options.
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Typo. Should be 37 mm. 200 planes is very rare. Yes the Ta 152 served with two squadrons. The 110G-2/R1, R3, R5 with the 3.7 BK served with at least two squadrons in two different fighter wings, both on the Russian front and in the west.
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For the 110G it was likely an ETC 501 rack capable of carrying either a 500kg bomb (depending on mounting location, limited to 250kg), or a drop tank of varying size. These became de facto standard from mid 1943 onward.
See image in reply #8 which clearly shows DTs on a special rack/carrier with the twin ETC50 further outboard
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Typo. Should be 37 mm. 200 planes is very rare. Yes the Ta 152 served with two squadrons.
Uncommon, sure, but operationally deployed is very different from frontline testing.
The 110G-2/R1, R3, R5 with the 3.7 BK served with at least two squadrons in two different fighter wings, both on the Russian front and in the west.
Except that all of the sources cited are saying these were simply field tests that proved unsuccessful and the program was not adopted. Don't get me wrong, I would love more reasons to fly the 110, but from what I'm seeing, they were test-beds and not operationally deployed.
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Just to refute your comments about "we have a big gun on the 410, see?!" -- the Me410 with the BK gun was a mass produced production run. It was sent out to units and flown en masse against bomber formations. It had jamming issues and over time, most of them were replaced with lesser caliber gun trays, but unlike the 110G with the 37mm, it persisted for some time and was actually intended to work. The problems were all with the gun jamming after the first few shots. The problems with the 37mm BK3,7 on the 110G are like the Mk103 gunpods on the Fw190. They were tested and found wanting. They directly hurt the performance of the craft to the point that it was dangerous to fly in that configuration and lost all combat effectiveness, and furthermore despite having a large number on the order only small numbers were built and the rest cancelled.
You're trying very hard to make something be relevant when it just... wasn't. It's barely a footnote in the history books. There's no question, no debate. The facts are what they are. They tried the gun, they hated it, they stopped trying it and cancelled that production run.
EDIT: And this is all derailing the topic, anyways. The topic was to re-sort the weapons loadouts for the current 110G in game to allow historically relevant loadouts widely used during the long operational history of this airframe. Its current loadouts limit the use of this plane in events and scenarios by locking in the gunpod with the main fuselage armaments. Separating them out would improve the situation, and adding a 4x MG and no-MG option would round out all the necessary loadouts.
Edit 2: FalkEins is not a forum, and I cited the book they were using and even the page.
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And yet ZG 1 and ZG 76 were undeniably still using the 3.7 BK in late 1943 and early 1944, more than a year after starting testing it out. A total of 53 Me 410A-1/U4 were made and they all served with ZG 26. They used them in a handful of interceptions before switching out the gun-pack for something more effective. Yet that's enough for inclusion in this game, whether you like it or not.
The funny thing is this thread is completely pointless and you don't seem to realize your opinion is irrelevant. As is mine for that matter. Only one man's opinion matters and I doubt he reads this part of the forum (I wouldn't if I were him). IIRC he has stated a long time ago that for an aircraft to be eligible for inclusion in the game it must have served in at least squadron strength and must have seen combat. The Bf 110G-2/R1 fit those criteria.
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See image in reply #8 which clearly shows DTs on a special rack/carrier with the twin ETC50 further outboard
Hmm, so it is. Apologies, the 110 isn't my strong suit.
I do wonder why they didn't move to the 501 as with most other aircraft. They were pretty cheap mountings, and provided much greater flexibility as to what could be carried.
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A Bf 110 G-2/R1 serving in a squadron does not mean it served in squadron strength. Those are two different things.
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Did the 110G adapt the mk103 like the 410 ?
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Did the 110G adapt the mk103 like the 410 ?
To my knowledge no,there were too few available and the 110's were long in the tooth by then! The 210/410 was supposed to be it's replacement but as you know it was withdrawn from service.
I suggest those who think the 37mm is a nonfactor to read up on Black October,this was in 43 before the long ranged escorts were available,the Pulk destroyers just massed and waited,when the 47's peeled off they made their runs with devastating effect!
I had read there were 50 plus units fielded,some were sent to deal with GV's in the east. I see no reason why this loadout cant be included just because it might cause some GV players to be upset. Against Buffs,well it might be tough to catch them it wouldnt be impossible!
Notice how I started something then backed away....... :devil
I knew this would cause an upheaval....... :x :x :x
:salute
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Sadly the Luftwaffe records at ww2.dk have no or very limited info about the Bf 110G subversion in ZG units.
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A Bf 110 G-2/R1 serving in a squadron does not mean it served in squadron strength. Those are two different things.
As Dennis stated earlier there were 32 R1's made, and an unknown number of R4 and R5 models + unknown number of conversions. Plenty for squadron strength deployment.
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Morfiend, 110G production ended in April 1945. Though most 110 at that time (perhaps all?) were night fighters.
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Morfiend, 110G production ended in April 1945. Though most 110 at that time (perhaps all?) were night fighters.
Yes I know,I reread what I wrote and I guess I could have worded it better..... I meant the 2/410's were withdrawn from frontline service.
:salute
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As Dennis stated earlier there were 32 R1's made, and an unknown number of R4 and R5 models + unknown number of conversions. Plenty for squadron strength deployment.
That's an unsupported assumption. Just because something is on an order doesn't mean that order was actually produced. Or that units actually got those planes. Luftwaffe history is rife with examples where hundreds of Me262s were assembled and moved to a staging area and then bombed before they could ever get out to a unit. It was quite common, in fact.
The burden of proof is on you to refute 75 years of historians. Okay, have at it. Good luck. Don't spout fallacies and falsehoods as if they're real. Just because there's a picture of it doesn't count. Facts matter.
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Dennis is an historian if I'm not mistaken.
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Actually 32 is barely enough for a single squadron. Combat losses, damaged planes, repairs ect. You don't get 12 shiny fighters and that lasts you the war. 32 is a tiny, tiny # for a WW2 combat plane. It is a # that renders it insignificant in historical terms imho.
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Probably more like 50+ aircraft in total. Still, it is a tiny number. Puts it in the same category as the Ta 152 and Ostwind. The Allies also had small production runs of specialized aircraft. For example the Hurricane IID with its hand-made and fitted Vickers S guns was operated exclusively by No. 6 Squadron RAF in Africa. After they converted to other types later in the war the surviving IID's were sent to the far east and Russia. All of these are already in the game.
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Probably more like 50+ aircraft in total. Still, it is a tiny number. Puts it in the same category as the Ta 152 and Ostwind. The Allies also had small production runs of specialized aircraft. For example the Hurricane IID with its hand-made and fitted Vickers S guns was operated exclusively by No. 6 Squadron RAF in Africa. After they converted to other types later in the war the surviving IID's were sent to the far east and Russia. All of these are already in the game.
But again, we have service records of these units being fielded and seeing action in squadron strength, vice production orders and a few pictures for the 3.7.
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Pictures of them flying in operational squadrons with ZG 1 and ZG 76. Squadron 4 in ZG 76 and "tank hunter squadron" PzJgSt in ZG 1.
Mind you these were not specially built airplanes or even factory conversions. The 3.7 BK gun packs were Rüstsätze identified by their "R" designation. Field modification kits. Any 110G could be modified in the field within hours to carry the gun. Like putting the gondola guns on a 109. So one day a squadron in ZG 76 (or just elements of a squadron) could be carrying the gun pack for a mission and the next day they might carry bombs instead for a different mission. We know the gun was in their inventory. We know the guns were used operationally. Asking for records showing which pilot used what specific loadout in a mission is going too far. Very rarely will you find a whole German squadron flying with the exact same mods and loadouts. The Luftwaffe cherished individualism and these decisions were more often than not left to the pilots themselves. Even down to things like what propeller they preferred and ammunition belting order. Some famous successful pilots even had one-off custom mods made to their rides.
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I suspect everyone has a copy of Fw190 Ersatzteileliste Band 4 1944 big book of FW armament options and parts. And you have all posted references and pictures to FW using them. Does anyone have a copy of the same big book for 110? Are the BK3.7 or MK101 in the book? The manual for installation and maintenance of the BK3,7 shows it fired AP rounds and only 6 in the magazine.
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I found this:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Bf%20110%20G-2-R%20Teil%208%20A.pdf
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I suspect everyone has a copy of Fw190 Ersatzteileliste Band 4 1944 big book of FW armament options and parts. And you have all posted references and pictures to FW using them. Does anyone have a copy of the same big book for 110? Are the BK3.7 or MK101 in the book? The manual for installation and maintenance of the BK3,7 shows it fired AP rounds and only 6 in the magazine.
Looks like a total loudout is 66 rounds. The magazine holds 6 and the tray above fits another 60 to be loaded by the crew into the magazine.
Page 8 here.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26232318/AH/Bf%20110%20G-2-R%20Teil%208%20A.pdf
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Pictures of them flying in operational squadrons with ZG 1 and ZG 76. Squadron 4 in ZG 76 and "tank hunter squadron" PzJgSt in ZG 1.
Mind you these were not specially built airplanes or even factory conversions. The 3.7 BK gun packs were Rüstsätze identified by their "R" designation. Field modification kits. Any 110G could be modified in the field within hours to carry the gun. Like putting the gondola guns on a 109. So one day a squadron in ZG 76 (or just elements of a squadron) could be carrying the gun pack for a mission and the next day they might carry bombs instead for a different mission. We know the gun was in their inventory. We know the guns were used operationally. Asking for records showing which pilot used what specific loadout in a mission is going too far. Very rarely will you find a whole German squadron flying with the exact same mods and loadouts. The Luftwaffe cherished individualism and these decisions were more often than not left to the pilots themselves. Even down to things like what propeller they preferred and ammunition belting order. Some famous successful pilots even had one-off custom mods made to their rides.
We have various systems that plug into our jet that are used for testing. These devices are flown. They are NOT deployed in squadron strength.
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Irrelevant. They were not still "testing" them in 1944 after first deploying them in 1942.
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Nor were they seen to be in strength. At that point in 1944 they were flying night fighters in broad daylight. They used anything that could fly and it was full-on emergency status for all heavy fighter crews.
One plane in a formation doesn't prove much, other than they managed to get those engines running and maybe that pilot's primary ride was down (or shot down) and unavailable.
Excepts from pilot journals show that much was common.
P.S. you really are pushing hard for this agenda, predator. Get over it. It was used in a test squadron and then a single-digit number of stragglers were kept around because they could actually fly but weren't effective in any real way.
You stand a better chance at proving the Boomerang racked up hundreds of kills....
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Sorry for the double post, but this warrants special focus:
We know the guns were used operationally. Asking for records showing which pilot used what specific loadout in a mission is going too far. Very rarely will you find a whole German squadron flying with the exact same mods and loadouts. The Luftwaffe cherished individualism and these decisions were more often than not left to the pilots themselves. Even down to things like what propeller they preferred and ammunition belting order. Some famous successful pilots even had one-off custom mods made to their rides.
You have no clue. "Some famous"? More like one, the narcissistic head of the Luftwaffe himself, had a couple of 1-off modifications in 1942 back when he still could fly. You know nothing of Luftwaffe units to claim that they could choose their own weapons, props, etc. Utter drivel.
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More like one, the narcissistic head of the Luftwaffe himself, had a couple of 1-off modifications in 1942 back when he still could fly.
Göring still flew sorties in WW2? I never knew that he still could fit into a fighter at that time :old:
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The custom-job 109F prototypes... Weren't those Georring? (Note: I didn't say they saw much use... lol)
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The custom-job 109F prototypes... Weren't those Georring? (Note: I didn't say they saw much use... lol)
*facepalm*
Oh the irony...
...you berate others for posting "drivel" and then in the following post you post the above gem.
Oh my.
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You know nothing of Luftwaffe units to claim that they could choose their own weapons, props, etc. Utter drivel.
The custom-job 109F prototypes... Weren't those Georring? (Note: I didn't say they saw much use... lol)
This quotes together are simply pure gold.
Pure gold.
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:rofl
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Adolf Galland had a Bf 109F with a few mods if memory serves. I think he had a 20mm MG FF in each wing ala the Bf 109E.
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Adolf Galland had a Bf 109F with a few mods if memory serves. I think he had a 20mm MG FF in each wing ala the Bf 109E.
That was one. Another was the test bed for the Mg131 cowl guns and Galland nearly shot off the propellers!
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Yeah I think this thread is done. lol
Only one guy's opinion matters and he has his own sources.
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Yeah I think this thread is done. lol
Only one guy's opinion matters and he has his own sources.
You mean the kettle to your pot?
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Not unless HiTech is secretly a kettle. I doubt it.
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Wow all this talk about squad strength etc. is meanless in this case!
The 37mm wasnt a series built plane it was a gondie pack that could be mounted on any 110G! Atleast 2 ZG's used them and it was used for both air to air and air to ground.
It's no different from the 20mm gondie that is on the 110G now,well slightly larger.... :devil
Arguing about this makes as much sense as arguing about having a cigar holder added to the 109F......just silly... :rolleyes:
It's simply an armament option like having either the 20mm or 30mm in the G14 or gondies on any 109G or even the option to carry a bomb!
I was the one who suggested it,not predator,he was kind enough to supply some photos of proof and then the resident experts went about poopooing him. Thx for the pix Pred,if I was more techy I'd have supplied my own,I have some 60 or 70 gigs of imfo on WW2 aircraft that I have collected over the years.
I can only hope HTC will consider these loadouts,the Mk101 on the 110C and the 37mm on the 110G might make players fly these great planes more often! And besides it's all about the guns!!!! :devil :x :x
:salute
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Wasn't there a night fighter version that upward firing 30mms. This allowed them to fly underneath buffs, shooting up at 70 degrees or something. Correct me if I'm wrong.
If we had this version in game I think they would own buffs, which may create missions as buff drivers would beg for fighter escort. Dare to dream.
boo
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Most German NFs so equipped used 20mm guns, only the He 219 used 2x 30mm guns.
Attaching the BK 3.7 to the Bf 110G required considerable work so it was assigned an /R number denoting heavy modification required for usage. Bf 110G used /M and /B designations for quick-change bomb/tank equipment (Rüstsatz), afair the belly gunpod also had a M/B number but can't remember which one.
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A list of the rüstsätze and umrüst-bausätze:
Umrüst-Bausätze (factory conversions)
U1
The fitting of two MG 151/20 mm cannon in the lower nose. This was used to bring early production models up to the normal G-2 standard, and to convert G-3 reconnaissance aircraft back to the G-2 standard.
U5
Streamlined mounting for the FuG 202 and 212 AI radar sets that increased the angle they worked at but reduced the maximum range. It may have been used in combination with the FuG 220 radar.
U6
A combination of the U5 kit and the FuG 221 radar system.
U7
GM 1 nitrous oxide power boost. This could increase the power of the engines by 300 hp for up to 19 minutes, but required the removal of the rear firing machine gun. Also known as the R2 kit.
U8
An increased internal fuel tank with another 142.6 gallons (540 litres). It increased the range of the aircraft by 220 miles.
U9
The replacement of the nose mounted MG 17s with two 30 mm MK 108 cannon, with 135 rounds for the right cannon and 120 for the left.
Rüstsätze (field kits)
R1
The addition of a 3.7 cm Flak 18 cannon beneath the fuselage.
R2
Alternative name for the U7 kit.
R3
Alternative name for the U9 kit.
R4
A combination of the R2 and R3 kits.
R5
The R1 and R3 kits combined.
R6
A combination of the GM-1 powerboost and the R3/U9 kit, but with the MG 81Z rear gun retained.
R7
One 79 gallon/ 300 litre drop tank fitted below each wing. This became almost standard on the Bf 110G.
R8
The famous Schräge Musik (Jazz) kit. This consisted of two upward firing MG FF/M 20 mm cannon added to the rear of the observer’s cockpit.
R9
An upgraded version of R8, using two MK 108 30 mm cannon instead of the MG FF/M.
B1
A streamlined 20 gallon/ 75 litre drop tank for oil, normally used with B2.
B2
Either two 238 gallon/ 900 litre drop tanks or two 79 gallon / 300 litre drop tanks beneath the outer wing panels.
M1
Belly mounted twin MG 151/20 20 mm gun pack with 200 rounds per gun.
M2
Two ETC 500/IXb bomb racks beneath the fuselage.
M3
Four ETC 50/VIIId bomb racks beneath each outer wing panel.
M4
Two SD 2/XII racks carrying 24 bomblets.
M5
Two 21 cm WGr 42 rockets under each wing.
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The M-series is done at the staffel-level (squadron). Same with the B1 and B2, as long as the R7 kit is fitted. The R-series was usually done at the geschwader-level (wing). The aircraft would have to visit the geschwader workshop at whatever base the geschwader command staff was located. The U-series required the aircraft to return to Germany to be converted at a factory.
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The M-series is done at the staffel-level (squadron). Same with the B1 and B2, as long as the R7 kit is fitted. The R-series was usually done at the geschwader-level (wing). The aircraft would have to visit the geschwader workshop at whatever base the geschwader command staff was located. The U-series required the aircraft to return to Germany to be converted at a factory.
That's a little tidbit I had never heard before. Thanks! That makes a lot of these make a lot more sense!
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:aok