Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Owlblink on January 14, 2017, 09:01:07 PM
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Howdy gents :salute
As mentioned previously in the scenario discussion board, an upcoming possible scenario is a fight out between the Tempest and the TA 152. Below is a link with a translation to a historical situation, in which both aircrafts duked it out on the deck.
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/sTa152H.htm
In a nutshell, the German pilot felt that the performance ("ever tighter turns" is mentioned) of his Ta 152 was superior to the Tempest. I gather that the tempest was experiencing stalls from the pilot trying to increase his turn rate and/or tighten up the turn radio us while the 152 was enjoying a more stable platform given the current situation.
I have never tested this out in game but I'm wondering if anyone else may have witnessed this in our virtual world and also what others may think of their flight models vs what they have come across in their research.
:cheers:
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The 152 only has speed and climb rate advantages at alts over 20K. The Temp should out-turns the 152 at all alts. Should be easy wins for the Temps in most situations.
Check out this gem. Performance comparisons for AH fighters - not updated to include recently added fighters.
http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/index.php
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Anecdotal evidence like that is pretty useless in the absence of energy-state and fuel-state data, and even then . . .
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Howdy gents :salute
As mentioned previously in the scenario discussion board, an upcoming possible scenario is a fight out between the Tempest and the TA 152. Below is a link with a translation to a historical situation, in which both aircrafts duked it out on the deck.
http://world.std.com/~Ted7/sTa152H.htm
In a nutshell, the German pilot felt that the performance ("ever tighter turns" is mentioned) of his Ta 152 was superior to the Tempest. I gather that the tempest was experiencing stalls from the pilot trying to increase his turn rate and/or tighten up the turn radio us while the 152 was enjoying a more stable platform given the current situation.
I have never tested this out in game but I'm wondering if anyone else may have witnessed this in our virtual world and also what others may think of their flight models vs what they have come across in their research.
:cheers:
The Ta-152 pilot says the Tempest reversed his turn making for an easy second shot. Sounds just like Aces High. :D
There is nothing in the link that lets you compare turn performance. The Ta-152 maintained lag pursuit and the Tempest pilot crashed from turning too hard.
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Anecdotal evidence like that is pretty useless in the absence of energy-state and fuel-state data, and even then . . .
I agree there are, like in any similar casses of pilot experiences, any number of other factors that are unknown for a scientific comparison - hense the given situation.
However there are reasonable assumptions that can be made.
A) The Ta 152s would have likely taken up light fuel reserves for defending the area (close to their base in cenrtal germany during the end of the war) unless they were prefuelled with more than needed for this mission.
B) the Tempests were in central germany, they would have started out with a lot of fuel but likely closer to 2/3ds of what it took for them to get to their target (to complete mission and return to base).
C)The Tempests may or may not have had rockets or heavy ordenance for their mission still fitted to their aircraft; though the description sounds like they were already low and ingaging targets so there's a chanse they discharged any heavy ords (if any) and were looking to strafe targets.
D) most pilots keep their throttle open for speed during combat with few acceptions from historical accounts (speed is life mindset).
E) german pilot was likely more experienced in combat vs the allied pilot, given his statements.
In the end, we still can see that in this situation the 152 was out performing the tempest on the deck in a straight up turnfight. Would this happen in every matchup? doubt it. However, it did happen.
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In the end, we still can see that in this situation the 152 was out performing the tempest on the deck in a straight up turnfight. ...
What you have is a story of one pilot out-performing another pilot.
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RAF 2nd TAF's version of the encounter:
"Wing Commander Brooker and and three of the units pilots (486 squadron)were again after some rail targets , but were split up. At 19.30 Wt Off W.J.Shaw, who was in flying with Brooker, saw a lone fighter, apparently a Fw 190 again, and shot this down in flames after a brief combat. Meanwhile the other pair had been caught by three more fighters whilst concentrating of strafing, and Wt Off O.J.Mitchell, a new pilot with the unit, was shot down and killed. It was reported that his opponent may have been a Bf 109 E - an obsolete type. Flg Off S.J short fought with one of the others, which was also identified as a Messerschmitt, claimed to have inflicted some damage on this. Their opponents were certainly not flying Bf 109 E, but fighters of a much more 'exotic' nature. The New Zealanders had been engaged by three members of Stab/JG301, a unit which had recently been equipped with the initial examples of the Fw Ta 152, the ultimate development of the Fw 190 line to see operational service. In one of these, Ofw Willi Reschke had shot down Mitchells Tempest over Ludwigslust at 1920, for his 25th victory, but in another of these fighters, Ofw Sepp Sattler had been shot down and killed - almost certainly by Shaw."
These were the initial version of the Ta 152 (likely H-0) and may not have been equipped with the GM-1 system and other equipment standardized on the H-1, which would have saved some weight. Even so the Tempest is clearly the better performer at low alts, but its advantage is not so great that it could not be overcome by tactical advantages and skill. In truth Reschke and his wingmen would have been better off in Dora 9s than 152s at that alt.
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There is a complete analysis of the combat on the web, http://clocloz.altervista.org/history/wwii/aviation/ludwigslust/Ludwigslust_aerial_combat_14-4-1945.html
Owlblink, Tempest would have carried drop tanks not rockets or bombs.
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Good information!
Thank you for sharing :cheers:
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Could be that even if their max turn rates were really close on paper it would be different in practice. Why do I think that? Their props turn in different directions. So I'd guess the 152 could turn better or at least more stabily than the Temp in a left turn with the Temp having an easier time turning right.
Just my guess as I try to employ this strategy in turning when fighting in the 38 which has no issue turning either way due to its props turning both ways.
Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
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Considering the -152 has the aspect ratio of a glider I am not entirely surprised.
(Edited as I typed "wingloading" by mistake.)
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The Tempest has a lower wing loading. At 41.38 lb/ft2 the Ta 152 has about the same wing loading as a P-47D. With 37.75 lb/ft2 the Tempest V is similar to a 109G-2.
The Tempest has an impressive wing design. It was the main improvement over the Typhoon.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Hawker_Tempest_V_from_below_1944.jpg)
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The Tempest has a lower wing loading. At 41.38 lb/ft2 the Ta 152 has about the same wing loading as a P-47D. With 37.75 lb/ft2 the Tempest V is similar to a 109G-2.
The Tempest has an impressive wing design. It was the main improvement over the Typhoon.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Hawker_Tempest_V_from_below_1944.jpg)
I meant to say aspect ratio. That is also a factor.
Interesting wingloading numbers though.
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Putting all real life actual happenstance aside. The Temp is a much better plane in AH, has best bullets in the game. Easier to aim. Will be able to accel away faster than 152. Temp is more agile at fast speed. Fuel loadout may be biggest weakness. Ta152 is a much harder plane to fly overall, even though they should both be flown the same BnZ style.
I'd like to point out that the Ta152 will have the advantage in roll rate, which can be used for a good counter scissors maneuver in the vertical during an overshoot. Obviously a very skilled maneuver. Being able to set a direction with a quick roll rate can be very useful for gaining quicker better angles. This can be used to set a vertical direction more quickly or mix up the enemy's aim and get them to miss their shot.
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In our virtual world the Tempest owns the TA152 all the way up to 23k. The TA may have better chances over that altitude when the temp becomes a fat pig.
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Without a stick or rudder pedals, I don't understand how the tempest can dog fight.
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The TA152 and the Tempest props turn the opposite direction.
This means one turns better left and the other turns better right.
The pilot in the tempest chose to turn the direction that favored the TA152.
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As Chuck Yeager always says.. "It's the man, not the machine" that determines the outcome of an aerial combat. Chuck spanked many a pilot in his day in inferior machines to prove that point. If you ever flew Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, there is a mission to demonstrate that point.
I've been spanked by many of a pilot while flying far superior aircraft online. Frency downed me once in his damaged Jug while I was in a Ki-84. Basically turned his bird on a pin, forced an overshoot, and nailed my cockpit with 8 of his 50cals.
I'm sure in this case, the Ta-152 pilot was far a superior pilot. I'm sure the Tempest pilot could of swapped his bird for a Spitfire Mk XIV and still loose the fight.
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As Chuck Yeager always says.. "It's the man, not the machine" that determines the outcome of an aerial combat. Chuck spanked many a pilot in his day in inferior machines to prove that point. If you ever flew Chuck Yeager's Air Combat, there is a mission to demonstrate that point.
I've been spanked by many of a pilot while flying far superior aircraft online. Frency downed me once in his damaged Jug while I was in a Ki-84. Basically turned his bird on a pin, forced an overshoot, and nailed my cockpit with 8 of his 50cals.
I'm sure in this case, the Ta-152 pilot was far a superior pilot. I'm sure the Tempest pilot could of swapped his bird for a Spitfire Mk XIV and still loose the fight.
Hard to judge without film. :D The Tempest pilot was likely a good pilot in a bad situation.