Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: pembquist on January 22, 2017, 05:05:56 PM
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I know it sounds political but it's really just an anecdote and I'm wondering if it reflects a reality that I find disturbing. Here it goes:
We have a house in a ruralish part of Oregon that we rent out. You have to have CO detectors in every rental property ever since an Oregon family got wiped out in their sleep while staying at a vacation rental in a ski town in Colorado. So this house we rent out had 2 of the plug in battery back up type. The house has a catalytic wood stove as the only combustion appliance. At some point my wife tells me that she was at the house talking to the tennants and discovered the CO detectors in a kitchen drawer. Why? "Because they kept going off" I freak out a bit over this and get new ones with the digital read out and go talk to the tennant about it. He says his wife's father came over and tested and said there was no CO and then he said "Where does carbon monoxide come from anyway, the ground?"
This guy seems reasonably handy, messes about with his truck etc. so I have to confess I was stunned that he had no idea what CO is and why it is poisonous. I started to explain about oxygen and hemoglobin and venting and hi-efficiency gas appliances and I realized that he had no idea what I was talking about. Is this normal?
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Thats why we need education.
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Seems like a lot of people get their education from facebook instead of the traditional way
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You ought to put Dihydrogen Monoxide detectors in your rental house, it is far more hazardous then carbon monoxide :old:
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Seems like a lot of people get their education from facebook instead of the traditional way
YouTube yo. Everything on there is the truth. :evil:
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YouTube yo. Everything on there is the truth. :evil:
So are you telling me that the Chemtrail video I watched last week is not true. :bhead
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You ought to put Dihydrogen Monoxide detectors in your rental house, it is far more hazardous then carbon monoxide :old:
It is, its the most dangerous chemical on the planet, thousands are killed every year.
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It is, its the most dangerous chemical on the planet, thousands are killed every year.
I take small doses of Dihydrogen Monoxide daily to build up an immunity. :old:
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Unfortunately, that's normal.
In a tech support call on an o2/explosive gas meter, a guy asked me why his meter wouldn't read zero o2 when he put it in a plastic bag.
After I explained how to operate it he said "I figured I could just make it read zero in a bag. You know, because you'll suffocate if you put your head in a bag."
This guy had osha training.
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I work at a major chemical plant and some of the employees regularly confuse carbon monoxide with carbon dioxide. There is a huge difference in danger and detectability between the two.
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This guy had osha training.
Those that seek out and get OSHA training for their job requirements and do not steadily follow up training at least monthly don't deserve the job to begin with
My personal opinion since I was a hazmat first responder before I became disabled
TC
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That's just Darwinism at work. Some people just don't respect Darwin these days...
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I know it sounds political but it's really just an anecdote and I'm wondering if it reflects a reality that I find disturbing. Here it goes:
We have a house in a ruralish part of Oregon that we rent out. You have to have CO detectors in every rental property ever since an Oregon family got wiped out in their sleep while staying at a vacation rental in a ski town in Colorado. So this house we rent out had 2 of the plug in battery back up type. The house has a catalytic wood stove as the only combustion appliance. At some point my wife tells me that she was at the house talking to the tennants and discovered the CO detectors in a kitchen drawer. Why? "Because they kept going off" I freak out a bit over this and get new ones with the digital read out and go talk to the tennant about it. He says his wife's father came over and tested and said there was no CO and then he said "Where does carbon monoxide come from anyway, the ground?"
This guy seems reasonably handy, messes about with his truck etc. so I have to confess I was stunned that he had no idea what CO is and why it is poisonous. I started to explain about oxygen and hemoglobin and venting and hi-efficiency gas appliances and I realized that he had no idea what I was talking about. Is this normal?
I bet he was either home schooled or went to a toejamty charter school. Even the most basic science class you can take to pass graduating requirements in a public school would have taught him about carbon monoxide. Or I suppose he never graduated from high school.
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Thank the Dept. of Education. :x
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I bet he was either home schooled or went to a toejamty charter school. Even the most basic science class you can take to pass graduating requirements in a public school would have taught him about carbon monoxide. Or I suppose he never graduated from high school.
Way back when I was young they taught about carbon monoxide in elementary school. But that was not in America... :old:
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Don't blame the education system for the failure to learn. Like a horse to water you cannot FORCE learning on those who do not wish to receive it. Unless parents display an interest in their child's education and stress the importance of school the kids will simply blow off everything because they do learn very early that they will now be passed as a social effort rather than be held back for not working. In that case the "system" is to blame but that is another feature of the parent's lack of interest as well.
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Don't blame the education system for the failure to learn. Like a horse to water you cannot FORCE learning on those who do not wish to receive it. Unless parents display an interest in their child's education and stress the importance of school the kids will simply blow off everything because they do learn very early that they will now be passed as a social effort rather than be held back for not working. In that case the "system" is to blame but that is another feature of the parent's lack of interest as well.
QFT!
TC
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Don't blame the education system for the failure to learn. Like a horse to water you cannot FORCE learning on those who do not wish to receive it. Unless parents display an interest in their child's education and stress the importance of school the kids will simply blow off everything because they do learn very early that they will now be passed as a social effort rather than be held back for not working. In that case the "system" is to blame but that is another feature of the parent's lack of interest as well.
As the father of 16yrold Boy/Girl twins.....I agree 200% We lucked out with ours. Book and common sense smart, and an amazing work ethic.
Some of their friends make me want to bang my head on the wall. Good kids, but dear lord the real world is going to eat them alive.
This isn't a slam on all of them in their "generation" but some I feel like I should be able to claim on my tax returns
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There are some crappy CO2 monitors out there, I owned 2 before finding out you get what you pay for, the 3rd one is not sending out false positives in our motor home.
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Seems like a lot of people get their education from facebook instead of the traditional way
Maybe they should watch the major media stations and read books which are not wrong at all <insert sarcasm>
It's always funny...the conversations about millennials is always between a bunch of people who are around the age of millennials parents...
So who's fault is it anyway :bolt:
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Charles Darwin said pipz was related to a Monkey and he also said you cannot fix stupid :old:
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I work at a major chemical plant and some of the employees regularly confuse carbon monoxide with carbon dioxide. There is a huge difference in danger and detectability between the two.
Oh look! There's one!
There are some crappy CO2 monitors out there, I owned 2 before finding out you get what you pay for, the 3rd one is not sending out false positives in our motor home.
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Maybe they should watch the major media stations and read books which are not wrong at all <insert sarcasm>
It's always funny...the conversations about millennials is always between a bunch of people who are around the age of millennials parents...
So who's fault is it anyway :bolt:
I've found it easy run into the same kind of lack of knowledge often enough regardless of the person's generation these days. Remember, half of the people out there are below average.
Wiley.
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I've found it easy run into the same kind of lack of knowledge often enough regardless of the person's generation these days. Remember, half of the people out there are below average.
Wiley.
True! :aok
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I've found it easy run into the same kind of lack of knowledge often enough regardless of the person's generation these days. Remember, half of the people out there are below average.
Wiley.
...and they seem to have more kids than the norm.
I heard some even name all their kids with the same first name since they usually have different last names as it is easier to call them home at the same time.
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Education's fine, but we don't need no thought control.
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As the father of 16yrold Boy/Girl twins.....I agree 200% We lucked out with ours. Book and common sense smart, and an amazing work ethic.
Some of their friends make me want to bang my head on the wall. Good kids, but dear lord the real world is going to eat them alive.
This isn't a slam on all of them in their "generation" but some I feel like I should be able to claim on my tax returns
I agree :aok
And yet the powers that be let them stay on their parents insurance until
age 26 :furious
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The male brain does not reach full maturity until age 26. The female brain does not reach full maturity until age 24. This maturation process is due to the neuropeptides NGF (nerve growth factor) and BDNF (brain derived neurotrophic factor). Stress, trauma, drugs, or alcohol can stop this maturation process. This is why a lot of people you may know have a juvenile personality.
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The male brain does not reach full maturity until age 26. The female brain does not reach full maturity until age 24. This maturation process is due to the neuropeptides NGF (nerve growth factor) and BDNF (brain derived neurotrophic factor). Stress, trauma, drugs, or alcohol can stop this maturation process. This is why a lot of people you may know have a juvenile personality.
What about Doogie Howser? :headscratch:
Coogan
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I take small doses of Dihydrogen Monoxide daily to build up an immunity. :old:
You can neutralize the harmful effects by mixing a bit with Whiskey.
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You can neutralize the harmful effects by mixing a bit with Whiskey.
I prefer freezing dihydrogen monoxide. mix with vodka tonic and lime to kill any bacteria. or if you want to really be adventurous you can freeze dihydrogen oxide. but that is for experts only.
semp
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I agree :aok
And yet the powers that be let them stay on their parents insurance until
age 26 :furious
I had similar thoughts reading through this page. The kids need to let out of the nest so they can fall a little and grasp the real world. Waiting till 24 to to face the real world could have some drawbacks.
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Just remember, blaming a younger generation is a lack of taking responsibility by the older generation. Which is often what the younger generation is blamed with. But the older generation was tasked with raising the younger, and by their own admission, failed. The older generation always carries the true blame.
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It's kind of funny to blame the younger generation for not knowing things while at the same time we older people make laws about having this and that security device. Back in our youth, or in the youth of our parents, we didn't have CO warning detectors. We just had to know when it's safe to shut the damper. And we all knew someone who had heard about someone who hadn't known and is now six feet under...
When my parents were young the monitor had to come to school earlier to set fire in the classroom oven. Now it's prohibited to sell matches for people under 18.
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I weep for my generation and their offspring... We (35 and under) should have to have a licence to have kids...
Seems like all the bad stuff that is regulated can cause damage in a hurry (guns, knives, matches, vehicles, drones, drugs, etc, ).... but what about the slow, subtle danger that is raising (or lack thereof) kids and indoctrinated them with bad behavior and even worse manners.
Wow i must be getting old after re-reading this post... .... Get off my lawn... :furious
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Way back when I was young they taught about carbon monoxide in elementary school. But that was not in America... :old:
Bizman and TC hit the nail on the head. The public should be educated about the hazards of CO. For 38 years I directed the Iron making operations of the largest producers of CO.
Blast furnaces. The process of smelting Iron Ore produces HUGE quantities of CO. As a matter of fact they produce 100s' of thousands of cubic feet per minute! The gas that blast
furnaces produce is used to fuel Boiler Houses and the Stoves that heat the wind that blow through the stoves to temps of up to 2200 degrees F. The Steam that is produced by
the boiler house powers a turbine blower that creates the "wind" that is then heated by the stoves. Blast furnaces will produce around 200K cfm of CO per min. We try to harness it and contain it,
but sometimes mechanical and electrical failures can spread an entire area with CO to the rate of over 500 parts per million. Deadly levels and explosive levels. I have seen CO completely
destroy a dust catcher, (a huge cylindrical vessel around 50 feet high) and completely blow off bulkheads that are 92 inches in circumference with approximately 140 1 inch bolts holding
the bulkhead in place and tossing it over 200 yards bouncing off I beams and going through a house trailer 125 yards away...and the bulkhead kept on going. The reason OSHA got involved
with CO detection and limits is this. Around 1977 a stovetender (one who heats and puts stoves ON the furnace and who takes them OFF the furnace to heat them) was spotted down on the
stove deck. A co-worker went out to see what was wrong went down also because of the CO. Both were then spotted down and, in the end I am sorry to say 9 men succumbed to CO poisoning.
I remember to this day this accident. All who work on Blast furnaces are a brotherhood. There are few of us that do this work and the knowledge of what goes on working on blast furnaces is
basically only known to those of us that make iron. There are probably more attorneys in a town of 80,000 then there are of us in North America. Point is YOU DON"T KNOW how deadly CO
can be. Please use CO monitors! At the right levels your home can literally explode. CO is odorless, you can't smell it. I have been gassed and thanks to CO monitoring at work and knowing the symptoms
(one can be completely conscious being "gassed" but laying there with no control over your muscle system, motionless. You are lying there realizing you are about to die and you can do nothing about it.)
Although now retired, I still have the OSHA book at home. This reminds me that many good men died because of CO poisoning. PLEASE USE CO MONITORS IN YOUR HOME!
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See Rule #14
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Good advice Hajo.
Demon, yup. Now we can go to work. Talk time is over. :aok
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Hajo, how does CO destroy a dust catcher?
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I blame myself for my kids lack of drive / adventure / life knowledge.... left them to get hooked on the sinternet so now they are ill informed of how it all actually works when not in your room living life for real.... I have cotton wooled my kids and I hate it.....I think they rode a bike all of 10 times... why did I do it...don't know...living to the hype of society I spose..... dumb dumb dumb.....at 18 and there is no way any of them could live outside of the house....my boy has started working now and has become aware of costs which is a big surprise to him.... oh you have to pay for the gas you use...the power to run the refrigerator filled with the food you had to buy.... no wonder I couldn't have the new iPhone each time they came out hahahaha...
One of the funniest moments I had was when my son turned 16...we went out to do paintball...on the way all the boys were talking it up and how they were going to do this and that like in the game .... first real hit ..hahahahaha I so wish I was recording... one guy refuse to continue playing..... they thought they were so tough till it became a reality.... I got talking with them about it afterwards.... and just reiterated....just remember....these aren't even real bullets.... your games glamorize they unfortunate reality...there is no re spawn in real life...
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Way back when I was young they taught about carbon monoxide in elementary school. But that was not in America... :old:
Same here! But I suppose Alaska is only 'kinda' America.. :D
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---I suppose Alaska is only 'kinda' America.. :D
You're probably right. It used to be a backyard for Siberia until America purchased it. As you know, money can't buy what really matters. :D
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The male brain does not reach full maturity until age 26. The female brain does not reach full maturity until age 24. This maturation process is due to the neuropeptides NGF (nerve growth factor) and BDNF (brain derived neurotrophic factor). Stress, trauma, drugs, or alcohol can stop this maturation process. This is why a lot of people you may know have a juvenile personality.
And we play a WWII cartoon combat sim and have mature discussions on world events on vox :rofl
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The male brain does not reach full maturity until age 26. The female brain does not reach full maturity until age 24. This maturation process is due to the neuropeptides NGF (nerve growth factor) and BDNF (brain derived neurotrophic factor). Stress, trauma, drugs, or alcohol can stop this maturation process. This is why a lot of people you may know have a juvenile personality.
Until post WW2 America, many factors forced the reality of death and the necessity of early entry into the labor pool to rapidly speed parts of the development process up. The 1980 and forward generation in the US is probably the most protected population group in the history of the human species from any kind of dangerous reality or societal demands. Drug and alcohol abuse starting in your teens creates emotionally stunted adults who may take into their 40-50's to grow up and stop over compensating for their insecurities, ploys for attention\self aggrandizement and validation, along other substance abuse side effects.
Still, get out of urban population centers, and many of the 1980 and forward generation are pretty normal because they have to work for a living after leaving High School. And I bet in Alaska the realities of winter make it hard to not be normal.
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I remember when I was young in the 70s reading about between up killing family members because the furnace would break down and they would bring their trusty charcoal grill inside.
Stupidity is not just reserved for the youth.
Semp
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My sister in-law nearly died from carbon monoxide poisoning after the last hurricane. They had a small generator outside but located near their bedroom window that was open. The exhaust drifted into their bedroom. She was in kind of a comma for 24 hours in the bed before she was found.
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Very wonderful and attractive girl I went to school with died in 8th grade due to an HVAC company incorrectly installing/venting a heater. Dangerous stuff
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I'm not saying those on this thread are wrong BUT
with regard to brains not reaching full maturity until 26,
show me a study that verifies this... actually show a majority of studies
that agree with this.
I'm sorry but that statement is like those that say global warming is result
of human activity while others say it is not
From what I recall from university, the earth goes through hot and cold
cycles due to its spin AND wobble
Yes, methane and carbon dioxide are culprits but remember, all animals pass methane,
all plants breath carbon dioxide and emit oxygen just as all humans breath oxygen and create
carbon dioxide
So let me ask, are we gonna do away with humans like we have with plants (meaning trees)?
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http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/18/at-what-age-is-the-brain-fully-developed/
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html
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Bizarre how global warming discussion centers on only greenhouse gasses and address none of the other types of heating.
Ever stood on a building where the A/C heat exchangers are?.........that's a lot of heat.
Industry also "direct heats" the atmosphere yet all the cheeseheads want to do is assign carbon credits and deficiency and totally ignore all other types of heating.
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:aok :rofl
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Your parents and grandparents said the same thing about you all back in the day.
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Your parents and grandparents said the same thing about you all back in the day.
:old: :aok
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Bizarre how global warming discussion centers on only greenhouse gasses and address none of the other types of heating.
Ever stood on a building where the A/C heat exchangers are?.........that's a lot of heat.
Industry also "direct heats" the atmosphere yet all the cheeseheads want to do is assign carbon credits and deficiency and totally ignore all other types of heating.
not much talk about cooling the world one degree either. I know when its cold out buying a suv is a no brainer. cold , like hunger, has a way of driving the soul.
after having a interest in undergraduate basic chemistry, understanding co is still not on the top of my mind. My friend is job taught HVAC and Im sure if I asked him about co he would not know much beyond word of mouth with exhaust and co being synonymous. He tells me I got a cracked heat exchanger, the furnace needs to be red tagged and a new furnace is your best option. I know i could ask him to replace the heat exchanger but time is money and its a 20 year old machine. he's correct. A new furnace is probably the best option. Now, the furnace was working and will continue to work. I can do nothing! maybe for a long time. whats the problem? exhaust fumes (and other issues :)) are being vacuumed into the house. Just a little CO! its like having a salamander burning in the garage right? We'll be ok? but is co heavier than air? could it funnel to the basement over time? hmmm thats kninda scary. He said its company and trade policy to red tag the furnace. OK i get it. I cant use it. can you replace the heat exchanger for less money? :devil
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http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/18/at-what-age-is-the-brain-fully-developed/
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2010-12-brain-fully-mature-30s-40s.html
Lets see... phrases like "some evidence", "likely persists", "many regions" and my favorite
"prefrontal cortex changes shape until people reach their '30s up to their '40s"
Oh ya, I'm convinced :devil
Sounds like a Radiologist report :headscratch:
Why don't they just say the brain continues to evolve until death
Sorry... for me, these articles are no proof no more more than the body continues to change with age
:bolt:
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I take small doses of Dihydrogen Monoxide daily to build up an immunity. :old:
Trying to picture Pipz building up an immunity to flood water by drinking
bottled dihydrogen monoxide :neener:
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This reminds me of something I was told about light aircraft heater muffs.
It turns out that the muff is warmed by exhaust gases coming from the piston
engine which vent directly into the cabin. Oops, meant the warmed air,
not the exhaust gases.
I remember thinking at the time Holy Cow that sounds dangerous! You
normally use heater muffs when it is cold, which generally means the cabin is
closed up. If the muff has a leak, how quickly you figure CO will fill the cabin.
Also piloting skill has a strong tendency to decrease when you pass out...well
except for Corky Jr of course :D
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The heater in light aircraft are pretty similar to what used to be the norm in a VW beetle. Thing is in an aircraft that heater is subject to at least an annual (100 hour) inspection for leaks from the exhaust pipe where the heater muff encloses it. The VW, not so much.
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Lets see... phrases like "some evidence", "likely persists", "many regions" and my favorite
"prefrontal cortex changes shape until people reach their '30s up to their '40s"
Oh ya, I'm convinced :devil
Sounds like a Radiologist report :headscratch:
Why don't they just say the brain continues to evolve until death
Sorry... for me, these articles are no proof no more more than the body continues to change with age
:bolt:
If you want the scientific papers you have to find them yourself, its not my job to do it. If you want to prove or disprove something its your job to find the evidence to back it up.. Just because you haven't seen the evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist..
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And then there's stories like this:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/01/27/source-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-killed-berkeley-couple
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The thing is that the danger of carbon monoxide isnt anything that you can expect people to know about naturally, it has to be taught in school (for ex). But most people dont have stoves in their houses anymore so a lot of people haven't heard of the risk with having a fire in a closed environment.
(and tbh, a lot of people died from carbon monoxide back in the days too...)
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If you want the scientific papers you have to find them yourself, its not my job to do it. If you want to prove or disprove something its your job to find the evidence to back it up.. Just because you haven't seen the evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist..
You are the one that brought papers up !
It is not my responsibilty to prove ur statement... it is yours
and believe me, the internet is not the way
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And then there's stories like this:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/01/27/source-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-killed-berkeley-couple
I'm sorry but how long have we known about carbon monoxide poisoning?
This is just thinning out the herd :bolt:
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Read about a guy that was attending an out-door concert/event, sitting in his car drinking beer from a propane cooler... Darwin claimed him.
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And then there's stories like this:
http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2017/01/27/source-carbon-monoxide-poisoning-killed-berkeley-couple
That is a pretty unsatisfying piece of reporting. They don't really identify the source of CO though they kind of insinuate it might be the 3d printer. I'm curious, right off the bat I wouldn't have suspected a 3d printer but then I've only seen the ones that use ABS filament..
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This seems about right: http://www.3ders.org/articles/20170130-sources-disagree-role-3d-printer-in-tragic-death-of-berkeley-couple.html (http://www.3ders.org/articles/20170130-sources-disagree-role-3d-printer-in-tragic-death-of-berkeley-couple.html)
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You are the one that brought papers up !
It is not my responsibilty to prove ur statement... it is yours
and believe me, the internet is not the way
I havent made any statements on the subjects, i just posted the links. You were the one requesting evidence so then its your job to find it.
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Hajo, how does CO destroy a dust catcher?
Here is what happened. The furnace had gone through a mini reline. It had to be dried before being filled and blown in. We pressure test the entire furnace including the gas cleaning system with a small
amount of wind. To do this we get garden sprayers and fill them with soapy water and spray the welded joints and bolted mains. The furnace is dried by using very large Gas Heaters that blow heat into
the vacant tuyere openings. CO gas had built up during the dry out of the Fce. All it needed was a spark and enough O2 to ignite. It did. With such force that it split the dust catcher and blew the bulkhead
from the gas main that I explained in an earlier post. I've had this happen before with a different type of Gas cleaner (cooler) that used low watt electricity and water to gather particulates from the gas,
before it enters the Boiler House to be used for fuel. When we shut down we have to purge the system with steam and leave the steam in the system while putting the Furnace on (adding wind). In the
following investigation after the explosion we found a steam purge valve that was bad. It was a gate valve and turned to the closed and open position. We found that the stem to the gate valve was not
attached to the gate. When working the valve it appeared to be normal. It wasn't.
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Thanks Hajo. So the culprit was the O2.
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I havent made any statements on the subjects, i just posted the links. You were the one requesting evidence so then its your job to find it.
This is an awful thin statement of non-cuplability be so be it!
I'm done :cheers:
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Thanks Hajo. So the culprit was the O2.
Yes sir.....if we hadn't pressure tested with wind (02) there would be only CO. The CO wouldn't have lit off/exploded without the O2. As you know O2 doesn't burn, but it supports combustion.
Once we put everything back together we pressure tested the Furnace using steam instead of wind. We should've done that in the first place. We used past practice. That doesn't mean past practice
was the correct procedure apparently. Just means we were lucky before. Fortunately no one was hurt.