General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Puma44 on February 02, 2017, 11:04:20 PM
Title: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 02, 2017, 11:04:20 PM
This is a technique frequently used in an attempt to locate GVs in game. In a combat situation this would be a less than ideal thing to do since, there is a chance the engine may not restart. Additionally, the aircraft is slowly descending and/or airspeed is decaying. Both are a distinct disadvantage in a situation where survival should be the number one goal.
So, when the engine is intentionally shut off, how about the engine randomly not restarting?
Title: Re: Shutting of plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Dobs on February 02, 2017, 11:07:36 PM
LOL...wind noise would be quite high....between head gear and wind noise you won't here crap anyway. How about just make it so you don't hear external sounds inside your 2800HP, Turbo charged glass enclosed white noise generator?
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 02, 2017, 11:48:06 PM
It's really not all that gamey, not sure if it was done by fighter or attack planes but pilots in liaison aircraft (planes like the L-2, Fi156) would shut off the engine and glide in an attempt to hear ground vehicles moving.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 03, 2017, 12:07:28 AM
True, but they were also at risk of losing their ride home.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: BuckShot on February 03, 2017, 07:00:30 AM
It's really not all that gamey, not sure if it was done by fighter or attack planes but pilots in liaison aircraft (planes like the L-2, Fi156) would shut off the engine and glide in an attempt to hear ground vehicles moving.g
It is gamey. Those spotter planes would have been very slow, <75kts. They would have opened the side windows for that too.
Hearing gvs from a fighter at just above stall speed with the canopy open would even be a stretch.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Oldman731 on February 03, 2017, 07:03:47 AM
It's really not all that gamey, not sure if it was done by fighter or attack planes but pilots in liaison aircraft (planes like the L-2, Fi156) would shut off the engine and glide in an attempt to hear ground vehicles moving.
Other than Henry Fonda's doomed escapade, where have you ever heard of this being done before?
- oldman (just asking..)
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Drano on February 03, 2017, 07:05:00 AM
It kinda worked for Henry Fonda! Not so well for the guy flyin the plane tho!
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Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Drano on February 03, 2017, 07:11:29 AM
Lol beat me! Great minds!
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Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: colmbo on February 03, 2017, 07:33:02 AM
It's really not all that gamey, not sure if it was done by fighter or attack planes but pilots in liaison aircraft (planes like the L-2, Fi156) would shut off the engine and glide in an attempt to hear ground vehicles moving.
I have to wonder if this was ever done -- other than by Hollywood. I don't know about the Storch but I'm pretty sure the L-2 did not have electric start, if the pilot let the prop stop he's going to have to land to restart since he's probably not high enough to climb out on the strut and prop it while inflight (just in case anyone posts that photo).
For fighters and bombers you can't hear anything outside your airplane. I've flown the B-17 up within 10' of the tail of the B-24, had an A-10, F-86 and an assortment of propellor aircraft in very close formation without being able to hear them. You would most likely here gunfire/explosions that were nearby, I've heard shotgun fire on the ground while flying in a helicopter at about 30' altitude while wearing a set of Dave Clarks but then a JetRanger is not nearly as noisy as a piston engine airplane.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Zimme83 on February 03, 2017, 09:09:59 AM
It of course depend on what plane you are in but as long as the prop is windmilling you can just turn the magnetos off to kill the engine and the engine will (hopefully) start when magnetos is turned back on.
But we dont have any dust clouds or track marks that would give away a tank to an aerial spotter so i guess its about even, this is after all a game.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 03, 2017, 09:20:29 AM
It of course depend on what plane you are in but as long as the prop is windmilling you can just turn the magnetos off to kill the engine and the engine will (hopefully) start when magnetos is turned back on.
But we dont have any dust clouds or track marks that would give away a tank to an aerial spotter so i guess its about even, this is after all a game.
"Hopefully" is the objective when intentionally shutting the engine down. In a combat situation, it doesn't make much survival sense to shut down the only spare engine available. Doing so would be a high risk vs payoff event. As such, the same risk should be added into the game.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Zimme83 on February 03, 2017, 09:37:11 AM
Why? Its a game. Mechanical failures isnt modeled at all so i see no problem with having the engine starting every time.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: hitech on February 03, 2017, 09:50:38 AM
It of course depend on what plane you are in but as long as the prop is windmilling you can just turn the magnetos off to kill the engine and the engine will (hopefully) start when magnetos is turned back on.
Thats a bad thing to do,When you turn it back on loud bangs happen in the exhaust. You would simply shut off mixture.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Zimme83 on February 03, 2017, 09:55:29 AM
Thats a bad thing to do,When you turn it back on loud bangs happen in the exhaust. You would simply shut off mixture.
I dont say its a good idea and i would never even consider turning the engine off in flight, my point was just to show that its possible to turn the engine off and restart it in flight without too much trouble.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: OldNitro on February 03, 2017, 10:01:56 AM
Explosion of fuel puddled in the exhaust, called a "Key Bang" in the Hot Rod world. Had one blow the guts completely out of a Big Block Turbo Muffler on my 68 Firebird.
:confused: Sounded like a Howitzer going off under the back of the car, :rofl
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 03, 2017, 10:21:54 AM
I dont say its a good idea and i would never even consider turning the engine off in flight, my point was just to show that its possible to turn the engine off and restart it in flight without too much trouble.
....and when it won't start. What then? Would that be too much trouble? In a combat environment is the risk worth it?
HiTech what do you say to a random "no engine restart after an intentional shut down" in game just to make it a bit more challenging?
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: BowHTR on February 03, 2017, 11:02:59 AM
- 1.
Granted I don't intentionally cut my engine in flight, but if I wanted random failures, I would play flight simulator.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Ray77 on February 03, 2017, 11:12:42 AM
Other than Henry Fonda's doomed escapade, where have you ever heard of this being done before?
- oldman (just asking..)
There was a US liaison pilot (Charles "Bazooka Charlie" Carpenter) that had put some bazooka rockets on his L-4 and would fly over enemy territory and would shut of his engine and glide so he could listen and spot German tanks or other ground vehicles. When he'd find the vehicles, he'd attack with his bazooka rockets. He was officially credited with 6 tanks destroyed.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 03, 2017, 01:35:41 PM
There was a US liaison pilot (Charles "Bazooka Charlie" Carpenter) that had put some bazooka rockets on his L-4 and would fly over enemy territory and would shut of his engine and glide so he could listen and spot German tanks or other ground vehicles. When he'd find the vehicles, he'd attack with his bazooka rockets. He was officially credited with 6 tanks destroyed.
Now, there's a guy with big brass ones and thinking outside the box! Any further info on how successful he was getting the engine restarted?
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Randy1 on February 03, 2017, 01:37:19 PM
You have a good point Puma. However, I cannot say my GV was ever discovered by a red turning off his engine. The red might say I can hear a GV. Hearing is one thing. Seeing is another.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 03, 2017, 01:45:56 PM
You have a good point Puma. However, I cannot say my GV was ever discovered by a red turning off his engine. The red might say I can hear a GV. Hearing is one thing. Seeing is another.
True Randy. I have tagged several guys gliding about with their engines shutdown while in a shutdown whirble hiding in the bushes. I could see them but they couldn't hear or see me. Some have been gracious enough to glide directly over me at low altitude, making the ensuing kill shot very easy.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Ack-Ack on February 03, 2017, 02:54:02 PM
It of course depend on what plane you are in but as long as the prop is windmilling you can just turn the magnetos off to kill the engine and the engine will (hopefully) start when magnetos is turned back on.
But we dont have any dust clouds or track marks that would give away a tank to an aerial spotter so i guess its about even, this is after all a game.
Yeah, you don't want to turn the mags off....creates a risk of fire and a very good way to blow the exhaust system right off the engine when you re-energize. You shut down an aircraft engine using the mixture control, not the mags.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Krusty on February 03, 2017, 04:25:31 PM
It was very common to restart an engine as pilots forgot to switch fuel tanks and the engine would die. They could and did switch tanks and start up again as long as the prop was still windmilling.
There's nothing odd or out of the ordinary with that. (in response to Puma asking about if it was possible)
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 03, 2017, 07:07:22 PM
Sure it's possible to get a restart. It's also possible to not get a restart.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: flippz on February 03, 2017, 07:38:27 PM
-1 I hit the e ket by accident a lot in flight. mostly when landing and when the day comes I get more than one kill in a plane and actually survive the ride home I would hate to loose it because I hit the e key by accident
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: icepac on February 03, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
A windmilling prop. making the engine turn is more noise inside the plane than you "hear past".
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: colmbo on February 03, 2017, 08:08:53 PM
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 04, 2017, 10:09:18 PM
Yikes! Do tell. That's gotta be an interesting story.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: colmbo on February 04, 2017, 11:36:25 PM
Cessna 206 hauling skydivers. Normal drill was as last jumper exits I'd roll right as they left the step, a little top rudder to swing the jump door closed then hard roll left so I could see jumped below, release back pressure on yoke allowing the nose drop steeply and increase throttle to bring power up to bottom of green arc of manifold pressure for descent then ease the nose up to normal descent attitude and trim for the descent. My technique would get the nose way down, probably 30-40 degrees and allow me to eat up a bunch of altitude before the speed got up near redline -- descent normally made about 10-15 mph below redline.
On this drop as I steeply nose low and brought the power in as the speed increased the nose started pitching up. I think I must of been out of trim on jump run and put forward pressure on the yoke but nose keeps coming up. More forward pressure and I realize the yoke isn't moving. WTF?
I take a quick look over my right should at the tail and jammed between the end of the stab and the elevator mass balance I see the fingers of a glove. The glove is in the small space between the stab and mass balance jamming the elevator at about 2/3s up.
Rut roh. By now the nose is well above the horizon and speed decaying so rolled knife edge left to let the nose fall back through the horizon, it took a couple repeats until I damped things out and found a power setting to give me a nice gliding descent at about 65 IAS.
I got on the radio to manifest (happened to be my wife working the radio) and tell her "Bobbi, I have a control issue with the airplane. I'm overhead moving south toward the flats (large unpopulated tidal flat area), get someone outside to get eyes on me in case I have to get out of the airplane." She replied with a simple "Roger!" She hollered for the bosses wife who went to wake the aircraft owner from his nap.
I switched to Approach and let them know I had a problem and asked them to track my position in case I had to bail out. I zipped up the flight suit, snugged up the parachute harness straps, put my gloves on and did some mental bail out practice. The boss came on the radio, we chatted and both pretty much came up with the same plan...try to work the glove out to free the elevator. I most likely could land with the elevator jammed but our DZ runway was surrounded by trees, hill on the approach end and homes at each end of the runway. If I had tried to land it I would have gone to Anchorage and used one of their 10000' runways to give me room to work things out.
To free it I first pulled. It took a very hard pull to move the yoke only to have it stick again. A hard push move it forward a couple of inches where it again jammed and the a/c started to build up speed. With each movement the yoke seemed to move a bit easier so I assumed I was probably cutting through the glove. I yanked again getting it about back to the original position resulting in a nice pitch up and zoom, rolled knife edge again at the top to let nose fall, once back to horizon rolled level and gave a big push. Yoke went way forward and stuck, pitched down hard enough my shins came up and banged bottom of the panel with the dive steeping quickly. I almost got out. Thinking it's the last chance to fix it I heaved aft on the yoke and felt it come free...feel back to normal. Recovered from the dive and radioed to Bobbi that everything was back to normal. While doing the octaflugeron to clear this up I would hear snippets of the boss on the radio, broken transmissions that I didn't have time for. :) What I didn't realize is the web on my glove was intermittently keying the push to talk and they were hearing snippets of my grunting, pleading, cussing with the airplane and it was causing some concern on the ground.
Once of the ground we found the aluminum skin edges in the area where the glove was jammed were slightly deformed.
We assumed the glove was in the sleve of a student jumpsuit, the jumpers on that load weren't missing any gear.
I made a new rule --- all future jumps would be nude to prevent a repeat.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: haggerty on February 05, 2017, 01:59:34 AM
There would be little reason for the engine to not restart, this isnt hollywood. I'd be ok with a 0.05% chance of not restarting.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Bruv119 on February 05, 2017, 02:06:01 AM
GV's are ruining the game so anything that helps newer players find them and attack them is ok with me.
I use the old Mk1 eyeball because Gv's can quite easily kill their engine. :devil
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: BuckShot on February 05, 2017, 07:41:56 AM
Good story colmbo. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 05, 2017, 09:00:30 AM
Great story Colombo! Good job keeping at a solution. Solid airmanship! :salute
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: icepac on February 05, 2017, 10:22:37 AM
Not hearing anything on the ground.
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Dobs on February 06, 2017, 11:22:21 AM
Biggest thing to note is how you DON'T hear that radial sound overhead until he opens cockpit....see thread...http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,383785.0.html
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Krusty on February 06, 2017, 01:52:18 PM
Note that this is also a heavily-filtered audio feed, meant to cut out loud noises because otherwise it would "blow out" the audio on the recording. It's not an accurate recording of what YOU would hear if you were in that spot. Also there are modern considerations now found in WW2 aircraft. How much sound does a hard shell helmet over your ears muffle now? In WW2 they had leather helmets and very basic ear cups. Many bomber pilots still suffer major hearing loss along certain frequencies because the protection was inadequate and all the noise came through. That's taboo this day and age, but back then? The technology was in its infancy and there was a war on. Also, the thin primitive plastic materials used for canopies back then as compared to now, the sound deadening capabilities of the same canopies then vs now.
I'm not saying you could hear a pindrop. I'm not saying you SHOULD hear other planes' engines all the time. What I am saying is that tank divisions made LOTS of noise. They were a creaking clanking and THUNDERING noise often heard for miles over the horizon by people on the ground. At low altitudes and with an engine windmilling, it would be quite loud and is very within the realm of possibility. Was it done? I don't know. I'm saying the possibility is there that if it was done, it would work. Same as with us flying planes with almost no fuel off the runway, or firing off 1000x 7mm MGs to lighten your load because you decided you wanted to turn fight better -- never done, but realistic and "possible."
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Puma44 on February 06, 2017, 04:01:47 PM
Note that this is also a heavily-filtered audio feed, meant to cut out loud noises because otherwise it would "blow out" the audio on the recording. It's not an accurate recording of what YOU would hear if you were in that spot. Also there are modern considerations now found in WW2 aircraft. How much sound does a hard shell helmet over your ears muffle now? In WW2 they had leather helmets and very basic ear cups. Many bomber pilots still suffer major hearing loss along certain frequencies because the protection was inadequate and all the noise came through. That's taboo this day and age, but back then? The technology was in its infancy and there was a war on. Also, the thin primitive plastic materials used for canopies back then as compared to now, the sound deadening capabilities of the same canopies then vs now.
I'm not saying you could hear a pindrop. I'm not saying you SHOULD hear other planes' engines all the time. What I am saying is that tank divisions made LOTS of noise. They were a creaking clanking and THUNDERING noise often heard for miles over the horizon by people on the ground. At low altitudes and with an engine windmilling, it would be quite loud and is very within the realm of possibility. Was it done? I don't know. I'm saying the possibility is there that if it was done, it would work. Same as with us flying planes with almost no fuel off the runway, or firing off 1000x 7mm MGs to lighten your load because you decided you wanted to turn fight better -- never done, but realistic and "possible."
Bolded the part which contradicts what you just said..... "meant to cut out loud noises".
Airplanes are loud....Radial aircraft are louder...sitting behind the engine in the prop blast at 300mph....
Here is another video...from a Go Pro.
Note no external noise heard...even the PA system at the airshow, or the Hurricane taxiing beside him.
And a home boy with his handycam flying shotgun with Blue Angels....
You can hear the jet exhaust noise when he is tucked in tight, otherwise its just the wind.....
If you listen close you can hear the air "rush" from G loading....7:50ish mark when he rolls 180 out from formation and then dives and pulls...
Title: Re: Shutting off plane engine to listen for GVs
Post by: Krusty on February 06, 2017, 05:40:17 PM
EDIT2: Never mind. You don't want to hear it. I'm going to say this based on a lot of things, and if you don't like it you don't have to believe it, but it's based on facts and experience. If you're going slow enough that wind itself doesn't overpower anything you can hear, you'd be able to hear some stuff when your engine is windmilling.
If you want to quibble the gameplay balance and how much you can hear and in what situations, go for it.