Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on March 14, 2017, 03:01:36 PM
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:confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ialaXUiSFe8
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It happens.
The wind there can get squirrelly sometimes.
Making the decision to go around is one of the toughest ones to make because guys are so conditioned to complete the mission.
Good call by the crew to abandon an unstabilized approach and live to fly another day.
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So they got a bit into ground effect. I'm sure the FAA will overreact.
Way better than the old days of the 737's rudder causing the plane to roll out of control.
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So they got a bit into ground effect. I'm sure the FAA will overreact.
Way better than the old days of the 737's rudder causing the plane to roll out of control.
Won't be the FAA. WestJet is Canada's second largest airline.
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So they got a bit into ground effect. I'm sure the FAA will overreact.
Way better than the old days of the 737's rudder causing the plane to roll out of control.
It will likely be handled internally by the airline. Self-disclosure. It's a possible wind shear event any way. It doesn't take much to wind up behind the power curve in a situation like that.
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Some are saying they busted minimums on the approach. More research needed. I shall return.
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So....
TNCM...
The RNAV 10 MDA is 688'. The VOR Z is 486'.
The clouds are well above mins it looks like...
Without more data it's impossible to know what happened. It will come out in the wash.
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they just wanted to freak out all the tourists that gather there to watch
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So....
TNCM...
The RNAV 10 MDA is 688'. The VOR Z is 486'.
The clouds are well above mins it looks like...
Without more data it's impossible to know what happened. It will come out in the wash.
Yeah, WX looks good. Might just have been a lifty followed by a sinky... Been struggling with that lately on the ball. You hit a nice little gust that pushes you up above glideslope, pull power to get back on level, and JUST as your engine spools down, you hit a sink and the bottom drops out :(
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0uPTdKwWo78&app=desktop Gives a better view of the weather conditions. Seems like they ended up below glide slope and had to go around. It seems like the the weather was very close to minimums (partly confirmed here http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1357497 )
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Yeah, WX looks good. Might just have been a lifty followed by a sinky... Been struggling with that lately on the ball. You hit a nice little gust that pushes you up above glideslope, pull power to get back on level, and JUST as your engine spools down, you hit a sink and the bottom drops out :(
Yeah, and the engines on a 737 probably spool slower than your T-45 does, too.
In the Legacy we can get max thrust from idle in 7 seconds or less. It spools super fast for a jet. Even with that capability you can wind up behind if you don't anticipate.
In your case I suspect you'll develop that sixth sense in time. Just takes repetition and some calibration between your arms and the seat of your pants. Most guys pull too much power for too long and then go OH CRIKEY. It will come.
I imagine the rooster tail gets your attention and takes some getting used to. :salute
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=0uPTdKwWo78&app=desktop Gives a better view of the weather conditions. Seems like they ended up below glide slope and had to go around. It seems like the the weather was very close to minimums (partly confirmed here http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1357497 )
That airport has no ILS so no vertical guidance. I don't know if they can couple to the VNAV all the way to the threshold or not on a 737. The wind was howling as it often does there. Unstabilized approaches are not unheard of for all the reasons one can think of including fatigue.
They made the right decision. The fact they're being crucified in public is one of the reasons guys are so resistant to go arounds. It raises flags and causes questions that then have to be justified when a pat on the back is usually appropriate.
I'd really like to see the video from a point ten seconds earlier for context. The power was already way up before they reached their lowest point. Something external is going on there, IMO.
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Another thing to consider is that if you are descending and initiate a go around, particularly in a large aircraft, you will continue to lose height.
My airplane is relatively light compared to a 737. Our autopilot-coupled go around height loss is 75'. These guys made the decision to abandon the approach prior to where the video starts. Context is everything.
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T The fact they're being crucified in public is one of the reasons guys are so resistant to go arounds. It raises flags and causes questions that then have to be justified when a pat on the back is usually appropriate.
Perhaps, but the flag is much bigger if you don't go around and crash. :)
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Another thing to consider is that if you are descending and initiate a go around, particularly in a large aircraft, you will continue to lose height.
Even though the B-24 is piston it takes a while to get power up on it since we do the approach with the props back to 2000RPM -- the slow bellybutton electric governor controls have to get the revs up before you can push the throttles up!!
Short final into Prescott Valley, a little gusty but not bad, totally unfamiliar with the area. We were getting +/- 10mph or so all the way down final until really close in the bottom dropped out. I called for climb power and was working the throttles up as quickly as the prop governors would allow all the time sinking toward ground --- actually wondered if we were going to touch down short --- stopped sinking, called for gear up then flaps 20 for the go, about mid field got a left turn for "a pass" over the arrival crowd as if it was all planned. :devil It's okay to crash, but ya gotta look cool doing it.
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Even though the B-24 is piston it takes a while to get power up on it since we do the approach with the props back to 2000RPM -- the slow bellybutton electric governor controls have to get the revs up before you can push the throttles up!!
Short final into Prescott Valley, a little gusty but not bad, totally unfamiliar with the area. We were getting +/- 10mph or so all the way down final until really close in the bottom dropped out. I called for climb power and was working the throttles up as quickly as the prop governors would allow all the time sinking toward ground --- actually wondered if we were going to touch down short --- stopped sinking, called for gear up then flaps 20 for the go, about mid field got a left turn for "a pass" over the arrival crowd as if it was all planned. :devil It's okay to crash, but ya gotta look cool doing it.
Prescott Valley Arizona ?
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Perhaps, but the flag is much bigger if you don't go around and crash. :)
Agreed. But, as you know, guys are allergic to paperwork. It's a well-known subconscious issue they try to beat out of us in CRM courses...yet it sneaks up on us at the oddest times. There is a LOT of pressure in this job and sometimes it operates at cross purposes.
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Even though the B-24 is piston it takes a while to get power up on it since we do the approach with the props back to 2000RPM -- the slow bellybutton electric governor controls have to get the revs up before you can push the throttles up!!
Short final into Prescott Valley, a little gusty but not bad, totally unfamiliar with the area. We were getting +/- 10mph or so all the way down final until really close in the bottom dropped out. I called for climb power and was working the throttles up as quickly as the prop governors would allow all the time sinking toward ground --- actually wondered if we were going to touch down short --- stopped sinking, called for gear up then flaps 20 for the go, about mid field got a left turn for "a pass" over the arrival crowd as if it was all planned. :devil
AYE!!!!
It's okay to crash, but ya gotta look cool doing it.
Dying is sometimes unavoidable. Looking uncool is completely unforgiveable. :rofl
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Prescott Valley Arizona ?
Yes sir, April or May of 2002.
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Princess Juliana is such a cool airport, went there once and I'd love to go back.
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Another thing to consider is that if you are descending and initiate a go around, particularly in a large aircraft, you will continue to lose height.
Yep. In that Asiana 777 crash at SFO a couple years back the captain was adding power and trying to arrest the descent, but he was behind the airplane and didn't have time/altitude to save it. Apparently he would have had to have started the recovery 8 seconds or so earlier than he did to save it.
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Looks like he simply came in low and slow, probably pilot error. Wind may have had a part but I saw no reaction to wind by the airplane. This really doesnt happen very often tho I know with the -8 there was an issue with the landing gear and the flaps and I dont know how it was ever resolved.
Still I couldnt imagine an airplane safer to fly on.
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Disagree with the pilot error assessment. We don't have the data to make that conclusion.
The approach became unstable in very windy conditions. The crew executed a successful go around. The airport was then closed for 45 minutes with at least one airplane diverting rather than trying to land.
The camera only catches the last portion of the go around and nothing that preceeded it.
We cannot convict the crew based on this video. CONTEXT.
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The airport was then closed for 45 minutes with at least one airplane diverting rather than trying to land.
Yus. I would posit that this is significant.
- oldman
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Eagl performing his first commercial flight.
Hey that's rude, he's a nice man!
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Hey that's rude, he's a nice man!
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Good one. But we all know Eagl would have been inverted or knife edge. :cheers:
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ROFL
No, I fly the bus, and I paid attention in skool so I'm able to recognize who and/or what is controlling power settings.
Plus, fighter pilot. :old:
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Yep. In that Asiana 777 crash at SFO a couple years back the captain was adding power and trying to arrest the descent, but he was behind the airplane and didn't have time/altitude to save it. Apparently he would have had to have started the recovery 8 seconds or so earlier than he did to save it.
You mean the 3 qualified pilots in the cockpit failed to recognize that they'd turned off appropriate autopilot modes and needed to control power settings themselves, and didn't realize that they were going to land well short of the runway until it was far too late? I'm sure that's what you meant, because that's what "really happened". The captain's instinctive reaction after they were already crashing is pretty much irrelevant, any 4 yr old xbox player could have crashed in an equally competent fashion by that point.
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:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Good one. But we all know Eagl would have been inverted or knife edge. :cheers:
Naw, wings level recovery is standard when shining your a&* that low. However I do know some folks who, if they were to buzz a beach like that, would likely have their johnson hangin out just to check to see who's looking.
Not judging the crew of that 737... I'm sure they've had to tell their tale to a lot of people already and don't need my advice/opinion/questions. They're not dead and that's something.
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You mean the 3 qualified pilots in the cockpit failed to recognize that they'd turned off appropriate autopilot modes and needed to control power settings themselves, and didn't realize that they were going to land well short of the runway until it was far too late? I'm sure that's what you meant, because that's what "really happened". The captain's instinctive reaction after they were already crashing is pretty much irrelevant, any 4 yr old xbox player could have crashed in an equally competent fashion by that point.
That is what happened, but your characterization of the captain's response requires evidence not available. It may be accurate to be sure, but it also misses the point I was making about the response time of the aircraft. The crew had let the aircraft get ahead of them and by the time any of them showed any sign of being aware of that fact it was too late to save the aircraft.
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That is what happened, but your characterization of the captain's response requires evidence not available. It may be accurate to be sure, but it also misses the point I was making about the response time of the aircraft. The crew had let the aircraft get ahead of them and by the time any of them showed any sign of being aware of that fact it was too late to save the aircraft.
I don't remeber who first told me this but it's something I emphasize. "If you're not ahead of the jet you're behind."
It sums it up quite succinctly.
Others may have said this, but not in these exact words to my knowledge: Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.
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I don't remeber who first told me this but it's something I emphasize. "If you're not ahead of the jet you're behind."
It sums it up quite succinctly.
Others may have said this, but not in these exact words to my knowledge: Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.
Pretty much applies to anything you fly. They can all kill you if you let them.
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Pretty much applies to anything you fly. They can all kill you if you let them.
True. But when you are moving 8 miles a minute vs 1.5 miles a minute it makes a big impression.
Or in your case tens of thousands of pounds instead of 1500.
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Yeah, and the engines on a 737 probably spool slower than your T-45 does, too.
In the Legacy we can get max thrust from idle in 7 seconds or less. It spools super fast for a jet. Even with that capability you can wind up behind if you don't anticipate.
In your case I suspect you'll develop that sixth sense in time. Just takes repetition and some calibration between your arms and the seat of your pants. Most guys pull too much power for too long and then go OH CRIKEY. It will come.
I imagine the rooster tail gets your attention and takes some getting used to. :salute
Which model of the 3 Legacy's?
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Which model of the 3 Legacy's?
600/650.
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600/650.
Thanks. Conventional flight controls - right? ( not the sidestick )
Oh and the 737 is not a slug in roll - no more so than any other similar transport jet. No learjet but a large input that activates a lot of spoiler will snap your neck.
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Thanks. Conventional flight controls - right? ( not the sidestick )
Oh and the 737 is not a slug in roll - no more so than any other similar transport jet. No learjet but a large input that activates a lot of spoiler will snap your neck.
Well, the people who think it's a slug probably flew Falcons or something like that. Maybe it was the MD-80 I'm thinking of. I thought for sure that guy was in spoiler deflection with those massive inputs. :O
Conventional, yes. I will be going to school for the (FBW, sidestick) 500 this summer if all goes according to plan. Not counting my chicks yet, though. :salute
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Well, the people who think it's a slug probably flew Falcons or something like that. Maybe it was the MD-80 I'm thinking of. I thought for sure that guy was in spoiler deflection with those massive inputs. :O
Conventional, yes. I will be going to school for the (FBW, sidestick) 500 this summer if all goes according to plan. Not counting my chicks yet, though. :salute
That's exactly why I thought to say that he was adding to his workload and likely making things worse... he would have been causing huge spoiler deflection. The airplane is extremely stable ... not all pilots are:)
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That's exactly why I thought to say that he was adding to his workload and likely making things worse... he would have been causing huge spoiler deflection. The airplane is extremely stable ... not all pilots are:)
Roll PIO. :D
My old man had 25,000+ hours in the T-43/737. He has passed on, but this is definitely a video I wish I could have shown him. :)
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Does anyone in here have time logged in the front office of a 737?
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Does anyone in here have time logged in the front office of a 737?
yes
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yes
You were "behind" or "Ahead" most of the time? :rofl
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yes
Likewise. Fun jet to fly, eh?
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LOL the youtube account that was associated with that video has been terminated.
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Likewise. Fun jet to fly, eh?
Was OK- Did not care for the low econ speeds. Preferred the 757/767 but would have liked to try the new 737MAX
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Yeah, same here. 20 years in the 73-100,200,300,500,700,800. The NGs were most definitely more fun, comfortable, and most importantly....faster.
Was definitely foaming at the mouth to get a crack at the MAX but, had a birthday and got fired.
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Yeah, same here. 20 years in the 73-100,200,300,500,700,800. The NGs were most definitely more fun, comfortable, and most importantly....faster.
Was definitely foaming at the mouth to get a crack at the MAX but, had a birthday and got fired.
<<--- Got old, got retired - haven't flown anything since 2006
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<~~~~. Lyme Disease, haven't touched an airplane in 9 months, although I did go to recurrent a couple weeks back.
Thank goodness I work for a great company that is keeping me employed, but this sucks and I hope to hell I make it back.
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<~~~~. Lyme Disease, haven't touched an airplane in 9 months, although I did go to recurrent a couple weeks back.
Thank goodness I work for a great company that is keeping me employed, but this sucks and I hope to hell I make it back.
You will. The treatment for it is not often applied appropriately. Just make sure you have good docs.
I've got a medical coming up. Hoping I pass. Had a few friends get the kabosh in my age group. Scary.
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Never give up! Don't let anyone give you the "you'll never fly again" line.
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Right on cue...
http://aviationweek.com/commercial-aviation/flight-safety-foundation-overhauls-go-around-guidelines?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20170329_AW-05_158&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_1&utm_rid=CPEN1000001714708&utm_campaign=9310&utm_medium=email&elq2=42f0555060564658a0d8dc5af55c7a78
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Never give up! Don't let anyone give you the "you'll never fly again" line.
Honestly, if you were to tell me right now that in the snap of a finger everything could go back to normal, but I could never fly an airplane again, I would take that trade without a doubt in my mind or a single regret.
Until you lose your health in a major way, you don't realize how trivial everything else is. Even airplanes, which have defined my entire life in some way or another become unimportant when you lose "normal".
Crap of it is, the lyme and whatever else I may have is hitting me neurologically. I've been dizzy/lightheaded, basically drunk feeling for nine months straight. I've had the equivalent of an astronauts/presidential health work up, and the only thing that comes back positive or abnormal is blood work for lyme, plus the EM rash I had when this all started. I just cant freaking beat it unfortunately. I am going to beat it, I know that. I'll never give up, but man this is sure a fight.
This isn't exclusive to pilots, but I hope the dudes that fly professionally really consider my story. Early thirties, healthy as an ox, flying brand new business jets to every corner of the globe and happy as a pea, and in the snap of a finger whole world gets turned upside down.
Thank goodness we have been smart with our money and lived within our means. We make a crap ton of it, and although we could have bought a much fancier house and cars, we didn't and that is proving to be invaluable. Even at 60% of my salary (disability), we can still pay every single bill and still save a little. We're not taking annual vacations to the Caribbean anymore, but other then that, financially we aren't disturbed too much. I can't imagine going through a major health issue and on top of that having to worry about how you will pay bills.
I don't even know how I got started on this. Be smart pilots of AH. We work in a profession where health is everything, and losing a medical can happen to anyone. That and, enjoy each click into your five point harness before each flight...You never know...
<S>
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Very well said.
As one of my fellow pilots used to joke with me on a gusty day, "Stick with it--don't give up."
:salute
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Kinda reminds me of this joke:
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A minister dies and is waiting in line at the Pearly Gates. Ahead of him is a guy who's dressed in sunglasses, a loud shirt, leather jacket, and jeans.
Saint Peter addresses this guy, "Who are you, so that I may know whether or not to admit you to the Kingdom of Heaven?" The guy replies, "I'm Joey Shasta, retired pilot, of Pittsburg, PA."
Saint Peter consults his list. He smiles and says to the pilot, "Take this silken robe and golden staff and enter the Kingdom." The pilot goes into Heaven with his robe and staff.
Next it's the minister's turn. He stands erect and booms out, "I am Joseph Snow, pastor of Saint Mary's for the last 43 years." Saint Peter consults his list. He says to the minister, "Take this cotton robe and wooden staff and enter the Kingdom."
"Just a minute," says the minister. "That man was a pilot and he gets a silken robe and golden staff. How can this be?"
"Up here, we work by results," says Saint Peter. "While you preached, people slept; while he flew, people prayed."
:)