Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: BBP on April 20, 2017, 11:09:36 AM

Title: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 20, 2017, 11:09:36 AM
IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?

I think there is on some planes. When you consider its taking weight off the front of the plane. So how much do the LW's weigh?

So if you dump the Landing Wheels, put only half the fuel in or use a  tank, and lighten up on the ammo, Many a plane will turn and maneuver like a Nikki :D

The down fall is landing! But with practice you learn to come in level and let the prop take the brunt of hitting the strip. Or use the flaps to feather your landing holding the nose up and letting the tail scrape the strip first.

I would really love to hear other pilots opinions on the subject!

Kimo!
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Lusche on April 20, 2017, 11:18:25 AM
I think there is on some planes. When you consider its taking weight off the front of the plane. So how much do the LW's weigh?

Nothing. Individual parts of the planes do not have any weight assigned to them at all.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: icepac on April 20, 2017, 11:39:34 AM
Are you sure?

I landed a mossie that broke the tail off.

Upon coming to a stop, it slowly nosed over and killed the pilot.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 20, 2017, 11:53:02 AM
Am I sure about what?
Kimo
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 20, 2017, 11:54:03 AM
Lusche?
Where do you get that info from?
Kimo
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Lusche on April 20, 2017, 12:56:11 PM
Lusche?
Where do you get that info from?
Kimo

Break your gear and look how the weight changes on E6B. It does not. Same when you lose half a wing, the plane weight will still be the same.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 20, 2017, 01:22:58 PM
Then why when you take off and don't pull them up, you can't gain speed or altitude. I know that's not the same as weight, but if they have one scientific characteristic, why not two?
Kimo
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: puller on April 20, 2017, 02:04:24 PM
It is drag that your are seeing calculated into not having the wheels up... :salute
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Serenity on April 20, 2017, 03:16:21 PM
If you're actually going to use that as a tactic, I don't think there's any saving you.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Mister Fork on April 20, 2017, 03:29:36 PM
If you're talking about the Stuka or the D3A1 - and flying flow to knock off your landing gear (hoping it'll speed you up), you're mistaken. It'll introduce drag from the damage - might as well left on your wheels.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Devil 505 on April 20, 2017, 04:32:55 PM
If you're talking about the Stuka or the D3A1 - and flying flow to knock off your landing gear (hoping it'll speed you up), you're mistaken. It'll introduce drag from the damage - might as well left on your wheels.

How does the damage incur more drag than the large fixed gear?
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 20, 2017, 06:54:12 PM
No, you guys got it wrong. You take off and let the landing gears retrack to inside the plane as usual. Then when you get up about two thousand feet so........you can do it at any level as long as you are high enough. Pull your nose up till your slow enough to put the landing gears back out as if preparing to land.. Then point your nose straight down and at 195 mph-200 mph, they just pop off and there is no damage what so ever. The plane is ready to boogie.

Try it.
Kimo
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Serenity on April 20, 2017, 07:48:14 PM
No, you guys got it wrong. You take off and let the landing gears retrack to inside the plane as usual. Then when you get up about two thousand feet so........you can do it at any level as long as you are high enough. Pull your nose up till your slow enough to put the landing gears back out as if preparing to land.. Then point your nose straight down and at 195 mph-200 mph, they just pop off and there is no damage what so ever. The plane is ready to boogie.

Try it.
Kimo

Or, ya know, just fly well...
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: pembquist on April 20, 2017, 09:27:27 PM
How does the damage incur more drag than the large fixed gear?

Well, this all totally hypothetical but a well faired  landing gear with attention to intersection drag and good wheel pants could easily be slipperier than a couple of mangled stubs. Don't quote me but I think when Vans Aircraft came out with some pressure recovery wheel pants it added 3-5 knots.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Devil 505 on April 20, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
Well, this all totally hypothetical but a well faired  landing gear with attention to intersection drag and good wheel pants could easily be slipperier than a couple of mangled stubs. Don't quote me but I think when Vans Aircraft came out with some pressure recovery wheel pants it added 3-5 knots.

But we're talking about the in game model.

I really doubt you would see gear failure to the point of totally falling off the plane from leaving it down on a real fighter or light attack plane. It would bend and skew and add a tremendous amount of drag and odd aerodynamic force well before that point.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: pembquist on April 21, 2017, 03:46:11 AM
I'm guessing the game model doesn't subtract drag for knocking off fixed landing gear. I thought you were asking about real life. Most people don't realize that at moderate speeds you don't get very much drag reduction by going with a retractable gear vs a well faired fixed gear.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Vraciu on April 21, 2017, 09:35:21 AM
But we're talking about the in game model.

I really doubt you would see gear failure to the point of totally falling off the plane from leaving it down on a real fighter or light attack plane. It would bend and skew and add a tremendous amount of drag and odd aerodynamic force well before that point.

You'd rip gear doors off and such...   But...   If you got to going fast enough to tear the gear off a fighter I have a feeling you'd take a lot of other parts off first. 
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Puma44 on April 21, 2017, 10:10:19 AM
There's probably more value in learning BFM/ACM and adding that skill set.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: colmbo on April 21, 2017, 10:21:03 AM
You'd rip gear doors off and such...   if you got to going fast enough to rip the gear off a fighter I have a feeling you'd take a lot of other parts off first.

I seem to recall an issue early with the Mustang, no uplocks on the gear, gear sag with G pulling gear leg down and failing the wing.  Uplocks fixed the issue.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: pembquist on April 21, 2017, 10:35:10 AM
I seem to recall an issue early with the Mustang, no uplocks on the gear, gear sag with G pulling gear leg down and failing the wing.  Uplocks fixed the issue.

Sweet! Very little drag if get rid of the wings.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Vraciu on April 21, 2017, 11:06:15 AM
I seem to recall an issue early with the Mustang, no uplocks on the gear, gear sag with G pulling gear leg down and failing the wing.  Uplocks fixed the issue.

I can see that...
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Puma44 on April 21, 2017, 11:19:21 AM
I seem to recall an issue early with the Mustang, no uplocks on the gear, gear sag with G pulling gear leg down and failing the wing.  Uplocks fixed the issue.

Some of today's Mustangs have an ingenious idea called a Pokey Man Tool.  It is a metal rod with all the correct angles that allow the pilot, if needed, to reach through small holes in the floor above the unlocks and manually release a jammed uplock(s).  The Pokey Man tool is attached to the pilots seat back behind the parachute.

Most Mustangs also carry a pair of vice grips in the event of a broken landing gear handle. 
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: morfiend on April 21, 2017, 01:33:45 PM
Some of today's Mustangs have an ingenious idea called a Pokey Man Tool.  It is a metal rod with all the correct angles that allow the pilot, if needed, to reach through small holes in the floor above the unlocks and manually release a jammed uplock(s).  The Pokey Man tool is attached to the pilots seat back behind the parachute.

Most Mustangs also carry a pair of vice grips in the event of a broken landing gear handle.


   Now you're just showing off!!! :neener: :neener: :neener:


      :salute
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Puma44 on April 21, 2017, 02:50:10 PM

   Now you're just showing off!!! :neener: :neener: :neener:


      :salute

Just a little Mustang trivia, my friend.  :D
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: morfiend on April 21, 2017, 03:08:36 PM
Just a little Mustang trivia, my friend.  :D


  I could be wrong but I doubt a visegrip was standard issue during WW2........ :devil


   I hope HTC doesnt model it,it came post war! :rofl :rofl :rofl


    :salute
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Puma44 on April 21, 2017, 03:19:56 PM

  I could be wrong but I doubt a visegrip was standard issue during WW2........ :devil


   I hope HTC doesnt model it,it came post war! :rofl :rofl :rofl


    :salute

Yeah, no kidding!

The handle has an occasional bad habit of breaking off at the base.  In normal ops, cycling the landing gear takes an amount of torque that is pretty much impossible without the handle in place.  Hence the application of a pair of inexpensive vice grips in comparison to the alternative.  I've heard replacement handles are quite expensive.  After all a Mustang these days is in the 2-3 million range. 

During our recent visit for Stallion51's 30th Anniversary Celebration, I was told a new prop was in the $100K range.  Makes a pair of vice grips seem like pretty cheap insurance.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Vraciu on April 21, 2017, 05:30:55 PM
IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?

NO!  But there is value in dumping the TAKEOFF WHEELS.   :D
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: DaveBB on April 21, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
The P-51D had a bad habit of shedding it's tailwheel.  This is why later models, most noticeably the H, had struts on both sides of the tailwheel instead of one.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 21, 2017, 11:51:15 PM
Well I can tell none of you :rolleyes: have  ever even tried it. So as the old saying goes "GET BACK TO ME WHEN YOU TRY IT!"
KIMO!
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Vraciu on April 22, 2017, 12:08:58 AM
Well I can tell none of you :rolleyes: have  ever even tried it. So as the old saying goes "GET BACK TO ME WHEN YOU TRY IT!"
KIMO!

Because shouting at people always works. 

Do your own research perhaps?
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Lusche on April 22, 2017, 12:45:18 AM
Well I can tell none of you :rolleyes: have  ever even tried it.


Well, I can tell you :rolleyes: are wrong with this assumption

 :D
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: icepac on April 23, 2017, 07:26:26 AM
I could swear the JU52 would pick up speed when you knocked off the gear in warbirds 3.

A link to the true scientific study of gear drag.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a278248.pdf
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: BBP on April 23, 2017, 08:49:46 AM
I know for a fact if you leave them down in AH you get so much drag you can't get over 200 mph. But that's not the issue. Its not drag........its weight, to lighten up your plane and specifically in the front when you knock them off.  Its just funny that everyone says take a half tank of gas it will lighten your plane. Take a smaller round of ammo, it will lighten your plane. So logic leads me to believe if I drop my LG I would lighten my plane. When you drop your bombs you lighten your plane. I've dropped the LG in many a plane and could swear it turned better. Look at the size of some of those landing gears! Particularly the Mosquito. If you pick one plane to try this with try that one. I'll call Roy on Monday to get to the bottom of this.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Lusche on April 23, 2017, 09:04:21 AM
I know for a fact if you leave them down in AH you get so much drag you can't get over 200 mph. But that's not the issue. Its not drag........its weight, to lighten up your plane and specifically in the front when you knock them off.  Its just funny that everyone says take a half tank of gas it will lighten your plane. Take a smaller round of ammo, it will lighten your plane. So logic leads me to believe if I drop my LG I would lighten my plane. When you drop your bombs you lighten your plane. I've dropped the LG in many a plane and could swear it turned better. Look at the size of some of those landing gears! Particularly the Mosquito. If you pick one plane to try this with try that one. I'll call Roy on Monday to get to the bottom of this.


As said before, E6B has all the information you need. Set fuel burn to 0. Take off, note your weight. Drop a bomb - weight will decrease accordingly. Shoot off your ammo and you will see the weight will deacrease, too.
Shear off your gears and the weight will stay the same. Just the drag goes away. And for the turn rate, you can test that, too. :)
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Rodent57 on May 02, 2017, 03:08:02 PM
I could swear the JU52 would pick up speed when you knocked off the gear in warbirds 3.

A link to the true scientific study of gear drag.

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a278248.pdf

Icepick,

Reference the scientific study of gear drag:
1) Fun read!

2) They were only looking at comparative drag between Non-retracted and partially retracted gear ... (NOT fully retracted) ... they were interested in low wing mono-planes and the value of partial retraction into engine nacelles for bombers.
 
3) They also tested up to a blistering '100 MPH'   ;)

Still, fun to see a part of the aeronautic evolution.

Thx,
- Rodent57
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: icepac on May 03, 2017, 06:06:05 PM
I stumbled upon the main site and found it's a treasure trove of information that is more often correct than information found most anywhere else.

Servers that end with .edu are also good for science and medicine.

This has a link to the entire story of what happened to chernobyl and is riveting reading.

http://www.dtic.mil/docs/citations/ADA335076

Clicking on the link where the above takes you will open a .pdf but I leave this link so you can see the search dialog box instead of going direct to the .pdf and not seeing it.

It has everything you could possibly imagine on weapons systems.........sprint missile, hibex missile.....etc.

Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: mike8318 on May 07, 2017, 10:23:52 AM
You would still have drag from open gear wells.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Groth on May 19, 2017, 05:12:46 PM
 Back in days gone by the c-47 would go faster w/o both outer panels...hoping soon to come try it again.
Also, re;Puma, Sir, I believe, w/o giggling it, later used Brewsters had wire cable cutters as issue in case needed in lowering gear for landing.... cheers
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Oldman731 on May 19, 2017, 09:37:53 PM
Back in days gone by the c-47 would go faster w/o both outer panels...hoping soon to come try it again.
Also, re;Puma, Sir, I believe, w/o giggling it, later used Brewsters had wire cable cutters as issue in case needed in lowering gear for landing.... cheers


Good lord, it's Groth.  Dude!

- oldman
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: save on May 20, 2017, 12:51:34 PM
I have seen a total of 2 C47's in AH3, since GV are the name of the game for base-taking.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Vraciu on May 20, 2017, 02:16:24 PM
I have seen a total of 2 C47's in AH3, since GV are the name of the game for base-taking.


True story.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: puller on May 20, 2017, 09:19:47 PM
I have seen a total of 2 C47's in AH3, since GV are the name of the game for base-taking.

I've killed way more than 2 goons these last 2 tours...
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: nooby52 on May 20, 2017, 09:26:54 PM
I've killed way more than 2 goons these last 2 tours...

They were prolly being used for resup, rather than base taking.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: icepac on May 21, 2017, 09:07:07 AM
Most goons I find are either landed or doing a long distance taxi toward a town.

I usually chute out and pistol whip them.
Title: Re: IS THERE VALUE IN DUMPING THE LANDING WHEELS?
Post by: Lusche on May 21, 2017, 11:00:02 AM
I have seen a total of 2 C47's in AH3, since GV are the name of the game for base-taking.

Random fact:
Since AH III went live, slightly over 7,000 C-47 were killed by their enemies.
In late 2007, there were more C-47s shot down in a single tour...  :old:.