Aces High Bulletin Board

Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Nefarious on April 22, 2017, 12:59:36 AM

Title: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Nefarious on April 22, 2017, 12:59:36 AM
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/ralphmunnich/now-let-us-never-speak-of-this-again-now-let-us-never-speak-of-this-again.jpg) (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/ralphmunnich/media/now-let-us-never-speak-of-this-again-now-let-us-never-speak-of-this-again.jpg.html)

I don't think I have ever seen such a discrepancy between Allied and Axis frame numbers in FSO.

I'm not even mad Axis, that's amazing.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: swareiam on April 22, 2017, 06:36:32 AM
Agreed, that was a complete blow out.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: j500ss on April 22, 2017, 08:08:21 AM
I would love to hear some feedback as to what went on around A110 and A112 from an allied fighter jock perspective.  I looked at only the buff squads numbers last night when the logs came out and personally I thought they did well, better than I expected to be honest.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: DmdJJ on April 22, 2017, 09:17:29 AM
I would love to hear some feedback as to what went on around A110 and A112 from an allied fighter jock perspective.
My perspective from the Allied side.
Fly around at 25k taunting all the 109's for about 15 minutes. :neener: One of the 109's says something about your mother. :devil Spits say, oh no you didn't. :mad: Spits go after the 109's. :airplane: 109's dive for the deck. :bolt: Fight ensues over 109's base and in their ack. :joystick: 1 billion .303 rounds fired, :x and grass around 109's base dies from lead poisoning. :uhoh Ack and 109's shoot down all the Spits and Bostons. :confused: 109's land, fire up the grill, and have some bratwurst washed down with good German beer.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: oakranger on April 22, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
My perspective from the Allied side.
Fly around at 25k taunting all the 109's for about 15 minutes. :neener: One of the 109's says something about your mother. :devil Spits say, oh no you didn't. :mad: Spits go after the 109's. :airplane: 109's dive for the deck. :bolt: Fight ensues over 109's base and in their ack. :joystick: 1 billion .303 rounds fired, :x and grass around 109's base dies from lead poisoning. :uhoh Ack and 109's shoot down all the Spits and Bostons. :confused: 109's land, fire up the grill, and have some bratwurst washed down with good German beer.  :cheers:

109s ran away from your spits? 
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: cav58d on April 22, 2017, 11:09:12 AM
I think a major issue was the Bostons have no defensive capability.    Yes, technically they have a rear mounted pea shooter, but it's 100% worthless. 

I've been trying to think what could be done to balance this frame in the future and i'm short on answers.  Altitude cap?  I don't think that would be historically accurate.  Maybe the Axis should have a delayed launched based on time or a spotter making a positive ID on allied aircraft?  If not a delayed launch, maybe what was previously said could be used as guidance for when Axis could cross a certain sector?

I don't know....?  It was definitely fun, just trying to see if anything else can be done when we run this frame again in future.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: KCDitto on April 22, 2017, 11:10:18 AM
ACK Killed all the spits and Boston's?  Really?
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: BFOOT1 on April 22, 2017, 11:24:46 AM
I truthfully cannot explain myself what happened Frame Three. I've played with the scoring a little bit and I've actually found a really good balance in the score in which had I done this prior, the axis won Frame One, and allies frame Two. Regarding Frame Three, I do not know what in the world happened.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: DmdJJ on April 22, 2017, 12:16:36 PM
ACK Killed all the spits and Boston's?  Really?
Ack and 109's shoot down all the Spits and Bostons.
The allied plane set was basically useless against the axis plane set. Spit I couldn't kill a gnat with the .303's, and the Spit V has too small a clip to be effective.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Devil 505 on April 22, 2017, 12:26:21 PM
I think the Allied plans were a major cause of the disparity. I see 2 decisions made by the Allies that played into the hands of the Axis.

1.Minimal use of the Hurricane 2C.

I really wonder why the CiC's in all frames did not utilize the Hurricanes more. It seems to me that the huge increase in lethality makes up for the speed difference with the Spit 1. The 109's had very little to fear form the Spit 1. If the Allies used more Hurricanes, the Axis would have suffered many more losses. The lack of that knock-out punch allowed the Axis to prolong fights, gain a numerical advantage, and divert even more assets to the location of fights.

2. Attacking all 3 targets.

This is not to say the Allied plan last night was not crafty, because it was. But when given the option to only attack two of the three targets, why not exploit the fact that the Axis must be set up to protect all three. It should have been very clear that local numerical superiority could have been achieved by only attacking two targets and hanging the third groups of defenders out to dry.

Bfoot designed this event to give more flexibility to the attacking CiC's as that has been a common complaint by the armchair generals that think FSO should be more like Scenarios and less like chess.

If the decision was made to attack all three targets was made thinking it was a winning strategy then it was a major blunder.

But if it was made with the intent of upholding the spirit of FSO and ensuring that all players saw action, then you have my deepest respect.  :salute

Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Devil 505 on April 22, 2017, 12:32:05 PM
I don't think I have ever seen such a discrepancy between Allied and Axis frame numbers in FSO.

Frame 1 of "Air Battles Before Bodenplatte" from May 2016 was nearly as lop-sided

Allied kills: 100
Axis kills: 26
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: APDrone on April 22, 2017, 12:42:53 PM
. Regarding Frame Three, I do not know what in the world happened.

1. The Spit 1 and Boston #$!# suck.. if they encounter enemy aircraft.
2.  A lot of people were in Spit 1s and Bostons.

Seriously, aside from the Battle of Britain event, I think the one side defends / other side attacks  setup is a terrible, terrible idea.   Too easy for the defenders to sit back and feed at their leisure. Especially when equipped with aircraft that can choose what fight they want.

There should be equal targets to defend and attack for each side.  With a few exceptions.

And please, for the love of God, CiCs.. take a few minutes to assign  squads something different from what they were assigned the previous frame.  I've watched the squad I'm in fly 3 consecutive frames of 109s.. then 3 consecutive frames of spitfires ( with the exception of 4 Boston volunteers in frame 1 ) the last 6 frames.

That's wrong.   
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: oakranger on April 22, 2017, 12:46:57 PM
CiC on allies did not utilized the Boston base off what we had to contain with.  Boston would have bed been used NOE then pop up to 4K while spits stay CAP.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Scca on April 22, 2017, 02:35:54 PM
109s ran away from your spits?

Here is a quote from the frame 2 scores thread
Let me guess how frame 3 is going to work...

109's climb to 30k and ignore massive group of spits below.  Loiter, loiter, loiter at high altitude until Boston's are spotted and then attack.  Axis wins 450 to 300  :aok

It basically went like that, but worse for the allies
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: snakeplissken on April 22, 2017, 03:43:43 PM
The allied plane set was basically useless against the axis plane set. Spit I couldn't kill a gnat with the .303's, and the Spit V has too small a clip to be effective.

If that were true you would be speaking German right now!
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: snakeplissken on April 22, 2017, 03:49:16 PM
I wonder how one little tweak would change things?  Frame 4 we substitute Lancs for Bostons!

Just kidding.  There is no Frame 4.  But, all are welcome to join us in Combat Challenge next Friday!
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: KCDitto on April 22, 2017, 04:03:02 PM
I am up for that

Daring Daytime raid by the RAF in Lancasters

everything else the same
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: DmdJJ on April 22, 2017, 04:33:43 PM
If that were true you would be speaking German right now!
You do realize that I wrote this referring to the game, not what actually happened in history. 
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: j500ss on April 22, 2017, 09:36:59 PM
I asked earlier about what was seen in frame 3 from an ALLIED fighter pilots perspective.   I got way more than asked for, and knew when I asked I would get just that.

So first off I was the frame 1 and frame 3 Allied Cic.   So based on the replies here are my thoughts. 

I KNEW!!! Regardless of what some folks posted here, that the Axis would be @30k and they would stay there, until targets of real worth ( bombers ) were called out.   From that point their main objective would be said targets of worth.

I KNEW!!! That I was WITHOUT DOUBT!!! In some way, shape, or form going to hit all 3 targets in frame 1, and with some help from the boss ( Rodent57 ) if possible was going to do the same in frame 3.   Which actually gave 2 axis squads something to do, because had G3 NOT!  Gone to A119, the 49th and 367th would have spent their evening flying around and holding their Johnson's.  Which would have been the basic highlight of their evening, which I suppose to some is fun.......  Just not in my world folks!  Now in frame 1 the Axis left a base totally unprotected, just out of sheer luck the POTW happened to flow there, but really overall they didn't shoot down many in that raid.  So why was the base not defended for the full frame?

Boston's in this setup, are actually not a bad plane.  The real issue lies in the lack of an alt cap, lack of any weather, and amazing radar!  None of which I control, so I have to deal with, just like everyone else I suppose.

In frame 1 I used Hurri's more so than in frame 3.   Now had I known earlier that an Allied squad actually wanted Hurri's I would have used more ( my apologies to the AK's ).   Do I think they may have made any real difference?  No.

It baffles me how after a setup, Axis folks come here and say.  You should have done this, or that, or flown this alt, or attacked this way, but then state " was a fun frame, fun fights"...... Well that's cool, next time the setup comes along, you guys be the ALLIED Cic.   

Oh wait, you can't do that your "dedicated axis".... My bad.  FSO is a team event, and like it or not, it goes beyond the 2 sides.

In both frames I Cic'd, I saw in text during, and dealt with prior to FSO start times where folks actually complained about the orders.   To the extent I finally said " do what is gonna make ya happy, and whatever makes you feel good"   Essentially they had free reign.   They squeaked to get though.   I  shocked me to say the least.  Because I had been led to believe people wanted detailed orders, orders with exact timing on routes, drop alts, sweep and escort roles....  Well let me tell ya, and I am telling it from a Axis and Allied Cic role that info is WRONG!!

Being a Cic from what I have been able to tell over the last 7-8 years I have been doing it, is in my book, from my perspective, and dealing with the rules laid out by CM's,  actually a bigger PITA than it's worth anymore.  Back in the day, when I asked Daddog for the chance to Cic, I had no clue, nor could imagine I would be to the point I am today.....  :mad:

I made the decision @ 9:30 pm Tuesday night to do the Allied orders for frame 3, because no one else would.  It was that or have the setup CM make allied orders, which I personally didn't think was right.   I wish I would have passed on it, but I am funny like that I guess.

I told my squad after the frame, I had Cic's my last FSO for a while, a very long while.   I have no desire, or intent to do it again anymore.  What I dealt with in e-mails during frame 1, our mission for frame 2, and read on 150 during frame 3, especially prior to launch has me in a state of mind where I could just care less about it all anymore.

It's a decent setup this one, just needs a few tweaks in arena settings (weather), scoring, and maybe some numbers modifications on air frames.

   :salute

JDOG    G3-MF






 
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: branch37 on April 22, 2017, 11:13:47 PM
Vf17 basically flew around all night waiting on an attack at 119. When it finally came we couldn't catch you. So thanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: snakeplissken on April 23, 2017, 12:17:02 AM
I am going to leave the historical vs game reference alone.  Instead, I will swing this back around to the positive, I want to Thank Jdog for stepping up as CIC for 2 frames of this event.  If you have not done that job, I feel that your opinions on game play don't count.  When you look at what the squads requested and what they flew, versus what targets need hit plus the plane limits, you get an uncomfortable feeling that you are dancing to someone else's music.  I don't need an Amen here, just a "good job CiC for stepping up and getting the orders out."  Way to Go Jdog!
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: LilMak on April 23, 2017, 12:27:26 AM
Defense is always easier in FSO. It gets MUCH easier with darbar and having zero fear of the enemy fighters.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Dantoo on April 23, 2017, 07:51:33 AM
JDog I thought your plan was pretty good for that 3rd frame.

I tried to fly as close to your intent as I could.  After making the deception runs as requested I took the guys downtown.  Just as we started to get a bit edgy about what to do next a trio of Bostons was observed well below under attack. 

A no-brainer decision - dive into a really bad position to save 30 points worth of Bostons and lose 20 points worth of Hurricanes to do it.  Didn't live long, but I think the Bostons got away.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: weiser on April 23, 2017, 08:16:40 AM
my only issue was axis able to go feet dry, being vulched while trying to land,with no ammo left was the death of most of my squad, basically all they had to do was wait until after the
 attack and get any bombers or fighters on their way home, by the looks of the time of some kills they did just that.My squad would of rearmed and upped to attack axis fighters but we never got the chance.
  Besides that we had a blast and look forward to every FSO.
<S>
weiser
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: tunes on April 23, 2017, 08:49:38 AM
Hello, tunes here ...

I do not like the use of darbars in FSOs. Has it been more of a Mission Parameter now?

With all the cloud formations we have now to hide in.
It is something to think about for a tweak and to ad realism.

Attacking a target. No matter the Aircraft or Pilot Numbers. Really depends on Surprise.
And with the LCA unpredictability.

After looking at the Dar's. we had the speed and fuel to change the attack mission planning to go around the defenders line for the surprise direction on the A110 attack.

We where successful. Good fighter cover however low on fuel was gallant.

I thank the CIC for doing double duty this Month.

LCA and tunes <S> Sir.





Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: waystin2 on April 23, 2017, 12:06:49 PM
Quick rundown here. Setups are better with balanced requirements where both sides attack and defend. Alt limits should be an all or nothing situation. All planes have them or no planes have them.  Dar bars should be left out of FSO. This  makes defenders work to the level of the attackers efforts. Listing multiple targets will leave squadrons without action at times. Unsure of a solution on this. Finally targets  be separated by enough distance to keep the sides from completely overwhelming power in one location. Lastly, dial all ack back to the minimal.amount needed.  Thank you CM's and fellow players. Lets set our minds to May FSO.

See you up there,

Way
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: trogdor on April 23, 2017, 12:29:28 PM
Waystin, that might be the most concise, accurate, and actionable AAR i've ever read in AH. Thanks for posting!
 :salute
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: waystin2 on April 23, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
Waystin, that might be the most concise, accurate, and actionable AAR i've ever read in AH. Thanks for posting!
 :salute
I love FSO, my guys love FSO and I want to see the community thrive.  :aok
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: j500ss on April 23, 2017, 01:11:31 PM
I love FSO, my guys love FSO and I want to see the community thrive.  :aok


 :aok

 :salute
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: tunes on April 23, 2017, 01:42:29 PM
Didn't I just say that?

Of course My Hero, Said it better. More panache.

Until we meet again "in a heavy cloud formation".

tunes, we gone  --- --- --- :airplane:
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: waystin2 on April 23, 2017, 03:03:34 PM
Didn't I just say that?

Of course My Hero, Said it better. More panache.

Until we meet again "in a heavy cloud formation".

tunes, we gone  --- --- --- :airplane:
Yes.  I love you too Tunes.... :D
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Dantoo on April 23, 2017, 08:33:21 PM
Well....everything's better with bacon :aok
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: SFRT - Frenchy on April 24, 2017, 12:29:32 PM
Setups are better with balanced requirements where both sides attack and defend.
Way

 :old:
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: captain1ma on April 24, 2017, 09:35:35 PM
I killed 2 bostons. it doesn't get any better then that, if I can get a kill on someone.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Alpo on April 25, 2017, 08:49:22 PM
Yes.  I love you too Tunes.... :D

I don't... he baited me into attempting to vulch his neatly parked Boston drones toward the end of the frame  :airplane:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/7a/9f/9e/7a9f9e34d235772fc926dcc29e289e73.jpg)



Honestly, I thought I was interrupting someones FSO runway picture  :rofl

 :salute Tunes... I had to try  :devil

Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: tunes on April 27, 2017, 09:05:39 PM
Sometimes you get the tune.

Sometime the tunes get you.

I had a good time though it all.

I thank all the FSO Pilots that make Fly n the best of times.

 :joystick:

PS: I got the Picture.
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Devil 505 on April 27, 2017, 09:23:53 PM
I got the Tune.
 
from 800 yards, with BBs only.

:devil
Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: tunes on April 27, 2017, 10:50:26 PM
That Was some good shooting.

I believed thought tune was coming home 

to meet the others at Pub. For Pictures.  :cheers:

How much fuel did you land with?   :pray

 :neener:  ... ... ..    :airplane:

Title: Re: Allied Frame 3
Post by: Devil 505 on April 27, 2017, 11:05:10 PM
I had plenty of fuel, but only 44 bullets.