General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ghi on September 30, 2017, 03:59:02 PM
Title: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: ghi on September 30, 2017, 03:59:02 PM
over Atlantic" .........
"An Air France plane en route to Los Angeles from Paris made an emergency landing Saturday in Happy Valley-Goose Bay, N.L., after one of its engines blew out over the Atlantic Ocean."
Piece of cake. In the Falcon 50EX losing an engine is an ABNORMAL not an EMERGENCY procedure. I'm sure the 900 and 7X are the same.
As long as the fan hasn't sliced through something important as it left.
We had an Electra land in ANC in 83 after the prop and gear box came off the #4 engine. Prop went left under 3 hitting the intake then sliced through belly of fuselage just ahead of wing. Crew had minimal flight controls, no throttle control....landed without too much drama and no one injured.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Vraciu on September 30, 2017, 09:40:53 PM
As long as the fan hasn't sliced through something important as it left.
We had an Electra land in ANC in 83 after the prop and gear box came off the #4 engine. Prop went left under 3 hitting the intake then sliced through belly of fuselage just ahead of wing. Crew had minimal flight controls, no throttle control....landed without too much drama and no one injured.
Yeah, there's that. Or the previously alluded to Sioux City event. Yikes.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: saggs on October 01, 2017, 01:33:27 PM
Seems similar to the Qantas flight 32, A380 incident, where the intermediated turbine came apart. I would say something that catastrophic causing the fan disc to come apart would have to be a manufacturer defect, or some undetected fatigue cracking. Anybody know if Airfrance 380s fly Rolls or GE powerplants?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: ghi on October 01, 2017, 01:53:02 PM
GE from the article above; but the plane involved in Quantas incident was powered by Rolls Royce. Two similar incidents on same air frame different engines, just guessing maybe not the engines are faulty could be wing design, engine mount vibration control.
"The jet is powered by four Engine Alliance engines, which the manufacturers claim offer $6 million in savings a year with a lower fuel burn, greater range and larger payloads. According to the company, its GP72000 engine is 'engineered for greater reliability and the lower maintenance costs that come with it'. Of the almost 200 A380s in the skies, 125 are powered by Engine Alliance engines. "
Is that the one that crashed and they found the engine months later at a corn field?
Yes. I work in non-destructive testing. That crack was missed a total of seven times due to using trainees to test the engine component. The trainees were under the supervision of a legitimate inspector. However, due to improper examination technique, by the time the inspector would view the engine component, all the dye would be erroneously removed from the crack. That crash should have never happened.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: saggs on October 01, 2017, 05:34:13 PM
GE from the article above; but the plane involved in Quantas incident was powered by Rolls Royce. Two similar incidents on same air frame different engines, just guessing maybe not the engines are faulty could be wing design, engine mount vibration control.
No, with the Qantas 32 accident it was definitively concluded to be a powerplant defect. Specifically an oil stub pipe which was bored out of alignment, causing it to fail, which lead to oil starvation of the intermediate turbine bearing, as well as an oil fire. Result was said turbine wheel coming apart, which wrecked a lot of other stuff as the shrapnel cut through the wing. But Rolls Royce fixed that, and as you say this is not a RR engine.
Just pure speculation, but this does seem more like the DC-10 incident many years ago that others have mentioned, where a material defect in the fan disc went undetected, eventually leading to it coming apart.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Devil 505 on October 01, 2017, 07:20:58 PM
Yes. I work in non-destructive testing. That crack was missed a total of seven times due to using trainees to test the engine component. The trainees were under the supervision of a legitimate inspector. However, due to improper examination technique, by the time the inspector would view the engine component, all the dye would be erroneously removed from the crack. That crash should have never happened.
If anyone knows the exact number of times a cracked component was not reported as being cracked, somebody knew it was cracked from the start. Sounds like somebody was covering their arse and passing the buck to the trainees.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: DaveBB on October 01, 2017, 07:37:09 PM
If anyone knows the exact number of times a cracked component was not reported as being cracked, somebody knew it was cracked from the start. Sounds like somebody was covering their arse and passing the buck to the trainees.
They knew that the crack had not just formed instantly, and they knew how many times this particular component had been tested. That's how they deduced it was missed seven times.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: oakranger on October 02, 2017, 12:29:25 AM
Wow, great job for being consistent on the job and not doing it. Wonder what that person doing theses days?
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: MiloMorai on October 02, 2017, 08:29:07 AM
There is a Canadian TV program called 'Mayday'. Watch it and you will never fly again.
The American version of the same show is called Air Crash Investigation, it's also on Netflix under the title "Air Disasters"
As a A&P mechanic, I like to watch them just for the education, Kind of asking myself "How did they screw this up?" and "How can I not do the same?"
I've seen a lot of those shows, a common theme in air accidents (especially part 121 operators) is that there are always several links in the accident chain, anyone of which could be broken to prevent the disaster. It's the rare incident when they all happen together leading to a disaster.
Commercial air travel today is statistically very, very safe. A quick google search says that the odds of dying in a commercial plane crash is 1 in 11 million, vs odds of 1 in 32,000 of dying in a car crash. That's more then 300 times safer.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Vraciu on October 03, 2017, 07:15:20 AM
SURVIVAL IN THE SKY is the gold standard for this type of show. Truly outstanding.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: TequilaChaser on October 03, 2017, 07:49:28 AM
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that the outboard 4th engine had a compressor stall, most times due to a Stator Vane coming loose and blowing the engine apart...
Back in '87 we had one of our pilots (he was LT. Howell) on the #2 catapult on the USS Nimitz fixing to launch ....about 3/4 of the way down the cat launch the right engine on his S-3 Viking had a violent compressor stall and the front main intake turbojet fan on the TF-34 ripped off and sliced through the fuselage passing between the legs of the 2 backwaters (ASW's)... Also ripping the right wing off from the engine mount outward...
LT. Howell never broke a sweat, he calmly flew that S-3 in a long sweeping right turn on 1 left engine and no right engine and 3/4s of the right wing blown/torn off... He landed on the flightdeck even catching the 3 wire....those backseaters were very fortunate to have not been killed or legs ripped off...
After that awesome job of taking off and landing, the CO stopped busting LT. Howell's chops for hotdogging and pulling excessive G's over stressing the airframes....
I've witnessed what props on E-2s and intake fan blades can do when people are either overly too cautious or not keeping their heads on a swivel while doing flight ops on the flightdeck....
TC
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Ripsnort on October 03, 2017, 02:55:58 PM
Blow outs happen. Just ask any toddler.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: oakranger on October 04, 2017, 07:37:12 PM
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that the outboard 4th engine had a compressor stall, most times due to a Stator Vane coming loose and blowing the engine apart...
Back in '87 we had one of our pilots (he was LT. Howell) on the #2 catapult on the USS Nimitz fixing to launch ....about 3/4 of the way down the cat launch the right engine on his S-3 Viking had a violent compressor stall and the front main intake turbojet fan on the TF-34 ripped off and sliced through the fuselage passing between the legs of the 2 backwaters (ASW's)... Also ripping the right wing off from the engine mount outward...
LT. Howell never broke a sweat, he calmly flew that S-3 in a long sweeping right turn on 1 left engine and no right engine and 3/4s of the right wing blown/torn off... He landed on the flightdeck even catching the 3 wire....those backseaters were very fortunate to have not been killed or legs ripped off...
After that awesome job of taking off and landing, the CO stopped busting LT. Howell's chops for hotdogging and pulling excessive G's over stressing the airframes....
I've witnessed what props on E-2s and intake fan blades can do when people are either overly too cautious or not keeping their heads on a swivel while doing flight ops on the flightdeck....
TC
Any photos of that?
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Busher on October 04, 2017, 08:56:50 PM
I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned that the outboard 4th engine had a compressor stall, most times due to a Stator Vane coming loose and blowing the engine apart...
Back in '87 we had one of our pilots (he was LT. Howell) on the #2 catapult on the USS Nimitz fixing to launch ....about 3/4 of the way down the cat launch the right engine on his S-3 Viking had a violent compressor stall and the front main intake turbojet fan on the TF-34 ripped off and sliced through the fuselage passing between the legs of the 2 backwaters (ASW's)... Also ripping the right wing off from the engine mount outward...
LT. Howell never broke a sweat, he calmly flew that S-3 in a long sweeping right turn on 1 left engine and no right engine and 3/4s of the right wing blown/torn off... He landed on the flightdeck even catching the 3 wire....those backseaters were very fortunate to have not been killed or legs ripped off...
After that awesome job of taking off and landing, the CO stopped busting LT. Howell's chops for hotdogging and pulling excessive G's over stressing the airframes....
I've witnessed what props on E-2s and intake fan blades can do when people are either overly too cautious or not keeping their heads on a swivel while doing flight ops on the flightdeck....
TC
I agree that this is a possible explanation but compressor stalls are also very uncommon at cruise power settings on an airliner.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: ghi on October 05, 2017, 12:35:07 AM
I just read about Amsterdam commemorating 25th anniversary of Bijlmer disaster, october 4th 1992 ;i didn't know depleted uranium is used for balancing passenger airplanes ?! :headscratch:; i used to add lead in my models, still toxic.
from Wikipedia about this crash bellow; "Health issues[edit] Mental health care was available after the crash to all affected residents and service personnel. After about a year, however, many residents and service personnel began approaching doctors with physical health complaints, which the affected patients blamed on the El Al crash. Insomnia, chronic respiratory infections, general pain and discomfort, impotence, flatulence, and bowel complaints were all reported. 67% of the affected patients were found to be infected with Mycoplasma, and suffered from symptoms similar to the Gulf War Syndrome or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like symptoms. Dutch officials from government departments of transport and of public health asserted that at the time of the crash it was understood that there were no health risks from any cargo on the aircraft; Els Borst, minister of public health, stated that "geen extreem giftige, zeer gevaarlijke of radioactieve stoffen" ("no extremely toxic, very dangerous, or radioactive materials") had been on board. However, in October 1993, the nuclear energy research foundation Laka reported that the tail contained 282 kilograms (622 lb) of depleted uranium as trim weight, as did all Boeing 747s at the time; this was not known during the rescue and recovery process.[16][17] It was suggested that studies be undertaken on the symptoms of the affected survivors and service personnel, but for several years these suggestions were ignored on the basis that there was no practical reason to believe in any link between the health complaints of the survivors and the Bijlmer crash site. In 1997, however, an expert testified in the Israeli parliament that dangerous products would have been released during combustion of the depleted uranium in the tail of the Boeing 747. The first studies on the symptoms reported by survivors, performed by the Academisch Medisch Centrum, began in May 1998. The AMC eventually concluded that up to a dozen cases of auto-immune disorders among the survivors could be directly attributed to the crash, and health notices were distributed to doctors throughout the Netherlands requesting that extra attention be paid to symptoms of auto-immune disorder, particularly if the patient had a link with the Bijlmer crash site. Another study, performed by the Rijks Instituut voor Volksgezondheid en Milieuhygiene, concluded that, although toxic products had been released at the time of the crash, the added risks of cancer were small, approximately one or two additional cases per ten thousand exposed persons. The RIVM also concluded that the chances of uranium poisoning were minimal. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al_Flight_1862
Actually their were several dozen photo's and rolls of film confiscated back when this happened... anytime something like this happening similar to the accident photos of the Douglas A-3 Skywarrior ( converted to EA-3B, then converted to VA-3B for "Chief of Naval Operations VIP Transports" ) we lost one night after it had tried 4 times to catch the wire , landing, in rough seas, the Air boss called for "Emergency Landing, Raise/put the Catch Net up" and right about touch down the LSO waved of the A-3 but it was too late and the A-3 Nose Gear caught the top of the net and the Jet flipped over into the ocean off the side of the Nimitz, killing the Pilot and the other 6 onboard occupants.... all that was ever found was the Pilot's helmet... all 7 people on board drowned, the ejection seats had been removed years earlier during the 3 seater bomber/attack era of this Bird...
They used to hold / go through and read/confiscate all mail, letters, rolls of film, pictures,etc back then when something happened,as to not let it leak out to the press
I agree that this is a possible explanation but compressor stalls are also very uncommon at cruise power settings on an airliner.
Yes they are not as common, but any FOD ( as in a compressor fin / blade or a stator vane coming loose or breaking ,as well as any other kind of FOD can quickly cause a compressor stall /Jet engine blowing..... looking at the picture of that engine on the A380 and listening of how some of the passengers described it, is why I posted/suggested that it was a compressor stall...... going off of my experience with witnessing them occur...
It seems that here in the past couple of years that wih all of the Commercial and Military aircraft problems,is that people are not doing heir jobs properly and/or thoroughly
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: MiloMorai on October 05, 2017, 01:29:10 PM
Lost a high school friend in a bird strike while taking off in 1975. He and the trainee could have ejected safely but stayed with the CT-144 to clear a residential area.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Busher on October 05, 2017, 06:43:16 PM
It seems that here in the past couple of years that wih all of the Commercial and Military aircraft problems,is that people are not doing heir jobs properly and/or thoroughly
I retired as a senior captain at a major airline 9 years ago.
Sadly, I have no doubt you are exactly right.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: DaveBB on October 05, 2017, 09:09:22 PM
Actually their were several dozen photo's and rolls of film confiscated back when this happened... anytime something like this happening similar to the accident photos of the Douglas A-3 Skywarrior ( converted to EA-3B, then converted to VA-3B for "Chief of Naval Operations VIP Transports" ) we lost one night after it had tried 4 times to catch the wire , landing, in rough seas, the Air boss called for "Emergency Landing, Raise/put the Catch Net up" and right about touch down the LSO waved of the A-3 but it was too late and the A-3 Nose Gear caught the top of the net and the Jet flipped over into the ocean off the side of the Nimitz, killing the Pilot and the other 6 onboard occupants.... all that was ever found was the Pilot's helmet... all 7 people on board drowned, the ejection seats had been removed years earlier during the 3 seater bomber/attack era of this Bird...
Sixty Minutes actually did a special on this crash. There was some conspiracy theory going around because the rescue helo was ordered not to attempt rescue. The plane was alleged to have been carrying classified materials.
I don't know all the details, but I imagine in reality that rough seas, a quickly sinking plane, and it being pitch black, the Captain probably didn't want to lose a helo in addition to the plane that was just lost.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: ghi on October 06, 2017, 09:55:03 AM
Another A380 in news today, struggling to land in Dusseldorf ; large cross section, like a Zeppelin , vulnerable to cross winds. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4954988/Heart-stopping-moment-pilot-lands-high-winds-Germany.html
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Zimme83 on October 06, 2017, 10:26:59 AM
Its certified for 35knot crosswind so its not that vulnerable..
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: colmbo on October 06, 2017, 02:45:49 PM
That wasn't a very good job landing the abus.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Puma44 on October 06, 2017, 06:28:32 PM
Back to basics and simple crosswind landing technique. Fly by wire, eh?
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Busher on October 06, 2017, 09:39:23 PM
Awfully large elevator inputs close to the ground along with gross rudder movement both on final and after touchdown - neither is a good idea in any airplane in a strong X-wind.
Maybe its time for the world's airlines to enhance manual flying training so its aircrew depend less upon the automation?
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: colmbo on October 07, 2017, 10:49:15 PM
You might have an idea there Busher. Big left rudder before touchdown and held until after big swerve after touchdown. Looked like he was a bit behind the airplane then over controlled as well. I bet it was a wild ride for the folks back in the tail. :)
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: DaveBB on October 08, 2017, 01:16:29 AM
Can we blame anything on the goofy left side-stick controller that the pilot has to use?
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Busher on October 08, 2017, 09:56:43 AM
Can we blame anything on the goofy left side-stick controller that the pilot has to use?
I doubt it. I think its that Hex-nut that attaches the side stick to the pilot seat.
Case in point.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447
Sounding like a typical old man, pilots used to learn to fly, then learn to use the automation. Seems they might not be emphasizing that first step anymore.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: McShark on October 09, 2017, 06:53:30 AM
Awfully large elevator inputs close to the ground along with gross rudder movement both on final and after touchdown - neither is a good idea in any airplane in a strong X-wind.
Also coming in low, no real flare, pumping the rudder et all, to me this landing is the school example when a captain should call a go around.
Only thing positive out of this is that Airbus had the calculations on gear strength right.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: Vraciu on October 09, 2017, 11:27:18 AM
Both of these pilots were fired.
Title: Re: Air France A380 makes emergency landing in Labrador after engine blowout
Post by: MiloMorai on October 09, 2017, 03:59:59 PM