Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Pudgie on October 14, 2017, 01:53:34 PM
-
Hi Radeon users,
If you're running an AMD Polaris\Vega equipped graphics card and Crimson driver vers 17.7.2 and up you will have the option to choose to use AMD's Enhanced Synch in Radeon Settings\Gaming\Global settings.
This setting works exactly as Nvidia's FastSynch setting does.....it uses a 3rd graphics buffer to allow the GPU to essentially "unsynch" from the monitor's refresh rate but to "synch" the displaying of graphics frames to the monitor's RR to allow the GPU to run at it's highest attainable speeds but not create "tearing" in the graphics onscreen as long as the game FPS is at\above the monitor's RR but will also allow the GPU to run unsynched to the monitor's RR to maintain FPS if the game FPS drops below the monitor's RR at the expense of some slight screen tearing.
This is the latest attempt to use Nvidia's\AMD's FS\ES to give a user the most benefit(s) of GSynch\FreeSynch on non-GSynch\FreeSynch monitors OR to give a user the best of using FS\ES along w\ GSynch\FreeSynch to essentially provide tearing-free gameplay across the entire range of a GSynch\FreeSynch-equipped monitor w\ minimal loss of FPS.
I have been using this since I've installed this Rx Vega 64 graphics card but in doing so I've also found some quirks to avoid when doing so while playing AHIII (and should apply to other games that have in-game v-synch application).
I found that if you're using the AHIII in-game v-synch setting then the game settings will override the driver ES setting and will cause some minor, random stuttering from the driver trying to use both synching settings at the same time along w\ FreeSynch enabled....when the monitor's RR starts to drop below the set RR in Windows (or the native monitor RR if the monitor is set at this RR in Windows....in my case this is 90Hz as this coincides w\ the upper FreeSynch range of my monitor's FreeSynch...Asus MG279Q Gaming Monitor).
So I went in AHIII Video Settings and checked the box to disable V-synch in-game to see if the driver's ES is active and operating then restarted the game.............
I can report that Enhanced Synch is active and operational in the Crimson driver (using 17.9.3 at this time) and it works very well at that. It unlocked the GPU from the monitor's RR of 90Hz and allowed the GPU to run at it's highest speed possible (1625 MHz GPU\945 MHz mem @ 100% GPU usage) at a max of 144 FPS (the true max monitor's RR @ 144Hz).....all w\o ANY screen tearing at all. The graphics frames were synched (verified by the prop spin up graphics on engine start up) and all at very high in-game and driver graphics settings (used the same settings as I have been using to date). Yes, this Rx Vega 64 graphics card can push some very high graphics settings at very high FPS but you WILL need to be watercooled to run consistently at\near these settings. My box hit 52*C on the GPU w\ CPU hitting 58*C w\ 120mm rad fan @ 1945 rpms\240mm rad fans @ 1844 rpms\water pump speed @ 1925 rpms on the upper end under this load which shows it can handle this beast pushing out this kind of power\heat (my 120mm\240mm rad setup was designed to handle 423W of heat output, EKWB recommended a 120mm\360mm rad combo @ 554W heat output using estimated output of this CPU, mobo, ref air graphics card combo overclocked @ 395W heat output). The only issue that I saw w\ this card running at these speeds\GPU loads was the screen transitions from control inputs weren't quite as smooth, most likely due to the GPU being pushed to it's very limits w\ no GPU overhead left, but were very playable....as long as there weren't a lot of players in the area. When player count started rising then the RR\FPS would start dropping due to the GPU speeds dropping off under this load but all stayed fairly smooth thruout as mentioned above. I saw the FPS drop as low as 92 FPS from 144 FPS but witnessed not 1 screen tear....all this occurred w\o FreeSynch being used as the RR\FPS never dropped below 90 (the upper FreeSynch range of my monitor).
So AMD's Enhanced Synch does indeed work as advertised and it will allow your vid card to hit it's maximum performance numbers as long as the temps can be controlled.
I then went back in AHIII's Video Settings, unchecked the disable v-synch box (to enable the in-game v-synch settings to take effect) then went into Radeon Settings\Gaming\Global settings and reset "Wait for Vertical Refresh" setting from Enhanced Synch to Off, unless the Application Specifies (this instructs the driver to use the in-game v-synch setting and lock the GPU to the monitor's set RR of 90Hz as set in Windows) as this setup allows the very same very high graphics settings to be used w\ the FPS locked @ 90 FPS which unloads this Rx Vega 64's GPU to the tune of approx. 53%-85% usage in game. This guarantees absolute butter smooth gameplay regardless of GPU load as FreeSynch is also active which guarantees a 1:1 synch ratio between GPU\monitor so all control inputs\screen transitions are butter smooth and lag-free.
Ain't nothing more beautiful as watching this AMD Rx Vega 64's GPU\mem auto-adjust to varying game loads while staying locked on 90 FPS across the board while outputting some of the best looking, sharpest graphics imagery\scenery I've witnessed in almost every situation I have encountered to date while playing AHIII..................
:x :rock :D
It is this aspect of FreeSynch that is IMHO the only reason to not use AMD's Enhanced Synch. AMD's FS\ES will work together very well as long as the in-game v-synch is disabled....but you will lose a little smoothness during screen transitions from inputting control inputs using Enhanced Synch due to the GPU being unlocked from the monitor's RR and under full GPU load but not enough to cause the screen graphics to visually tear AND you won't have FreeSynch enabled as long as your frame rate exceeds your monitor's RR (or FreeSynch's upper operational range)................
So in closing, from my experiences I would make a recommend to use AMD's Enhanced Synch if you don't already have a FreeSynch-equipped monitor OR if you want the absolute balls-to-the-wall max GPU performance numbers at a constant 100% GPU load regardless w\ minimal\no screen tearing. Graphics settings choices will determine how much of an effect will be incurred to the max GPU performance numbers as always.
If it weren't for the fact that I have already experienced how FreeSynch actually performs on my box w\ AHIII prior and have grown accustomed to it I'd have stuck w\ Enhanced Synch but using FreeSynch at a constant 90Hz\FPS w\ my watercooled AMD R9 FuryX graphics card prior and now on a watercooled AMD Rx Vega 64 graphics card using very high graphics settings both in-game AND driver side in tandem is very hard to give up from an overall performance\in-game experience standpoint.....I just can't do it as the differences are too noticeable to me in favor of FreeSynch w\ in-game VSynch over FS\ES w\o in-game VSynch.
My 2 cents on this..............
-
Thank you for taking the time to test and report/post your findings and results, Pudgie
I appreciate the amount of time you spend putting in to it and sharing your results with all of us!
Have you thought about getting an Oculus Rift and/or HTC Vive, to test your "all AMD components PC rig" with to see how it compares to Intel/Nvidia PC rigs?
I don't think I have seen anyone post that they are playing AH using any AMD components...all be whether they are using an all AMD components PC, or just an AMD CPU or just an AMD GPU.....
When it comes to talking about what is needed for AH3 using VR gear, I've only seen posts recommending Intel CPUs and Nvidia GPUs.....
Again, Thank you for sharing your findings
~S~
TC
-
Thanks for putting in the work Pudgie! That sounds pretty cool. I was all excited until I saw it didn't apply to my r9 380.
Question though- If I understand how the "rubber bullets" phenomenon works, would this not wind up working the same as just having vsync off in AH?
Wiley.
-
Thanks Pudgie,
RX480 user here, driver version 17.9.1; so I gave it a try just now. Here is my procedure and results:
1) Enabled Enhanced Sync in AMD Settings - Gaming/Global/Wait for Vertical Refresh/ => Enhanced Sync
2) Disabled VSync in AH3 (using DX9 version)
3) I get around 70-100 fps typically, at AH's default graphic settings but overriding AA to 4x Multisampling, with AF set to 8x and Texture Filtering Quality at Standard.
I'm a TrackIR user and still see tearing when I glance right or left - the canopy frames become noticeable offset between upper and lower as I pan my head. Its a horizontal tear in the canopy frames. This is the same behavior I got before setting to Enhanced Sync.
-
Thank you for taking the time to test and report/post your findings and results, Pudgie
I appreciate the amount of time you spend putting in to it and sharing your results with all of us!
Have you thought about getting an Oculus Rift and/or HTC Vive, to test your "all AMD components PC rig" with to see how it compares to Intel/Nvidia PC rigs?
I don't think I have seen anyone post that they are playing AH using any AMD components...all be whether they are using an all AMD components PC, or just an AMD CPU or just an AMD GPU.....
When it comes to talking about what is needed for AH3 using VR gear, I've only seen posts recommending Intel CPUs and Nvidia GPUs.....
Again, Thank you for sharing your findings
~S~
TC
No problem, TC. I like doing it if you can't already tell................
:D
Now as for VR, I haven't considered jumping into this at this time due to the commitment I have made to FreeSynch (made this decision about 2 1\2 yrs ago after I had ran a comparison test on my old X79 box between a Nvidia 780Ti vs an AMD Radeon R9 290X) and to date I have not read of any plans for Adaptive Synch to be incorporated into VR at this time.
Now if this changes then I just might move into VR at that time.........but I also never say never......
Thanks for putting in the work Pudgie! That sounds pretty cool. I was all excited until I saw it didn't apply to my r9 380.
Question though- If I understand how the "rubber bullets" phenomenon works, would this not wind up working the same as just having vsync off in AH?
Wiley.
Hi Wiley. Yes it could if the graphics card (or CPU as well) can't maintain the FPS consistently above the monitor's RR so your system spends too much time oscillating across the threshold which will cause the driver to be switching back & forth. The thing concerning Enhanced Synch is it will require both a powerful enough graphics card AND a powerful enough CPU to maintain the FPS above the monitor's RR w\ any decent level of graphics rendering settings applied. This is also why it is best IMHO to use Enhanced Synch along w\ FreeSynch as they will cancel out each other's weaknesses so that you get the best of both.....but you also would need to have a FreeSynch capable monitor to use it this way.
Yeah I was also hoping that AMD would've enabled ES for the R9\Fury series GPU's so I could've tested it w\ my Fury X, too.
Thanks Pudgie,
RX480 user here, driver version 17.9.1; so I gave it a try just now. Here is my procedure and results:
1) Enabled Enhanced Sync in AMD Settings - Gaming/Global/Wait for Vertical Refresh/ => Enhanced Sync
2) Disabled VSync in AH3 (using DX9 version)
3) I get around 70-100 fps typically, at AH's default graphic settings but overriding AA to 4x Multisampling, with AF set to 8x and Texture Filtering Quality at Standard.
I'm a TrackIR user and still see tearing when I glance right or left - the canopy frames become noticeable offset between upper and lower as I pan my head. Its a horizontal tear in the canopy frames. This is the same behavior I got before setting to Enhanced Sync.
Hi Oboe. Now this may be where the power of the GPU's may make the difference as this Rx Vega 64 of mine would maintain under most game conditions 144 FPS (monitor RR was set in Windows @ 90 Hz) and at this speed can mask most screen tearing if the tearing is small. I know that this might get some disagreement but this is 1 of the main benefits of very high frame rate gaming... The funny part about that is this FPS just happens to coincide w\ my monitor's true max native RR of 144Hz so from my using ES it appeared to "synch" the GPU frame buffer to the true native RR of my monitor since any FPS above the 90 FPS range would disable FreeSynch automatically on this MG279Q monitor.
I don't have a Rx480 on hand to test this out but if you would, perform this test to see if Enhanced Synch is working....
When you're in a plane sitting on the runway, when you start the engine observe the prop spin up graphics along w\ the ingame FPS.....if you see any tearing of the prop blades while the prop spins up to reach idle then this is indicating that there isn't any synching occurring between the GPU frame buffer and the monitor's RR. If the FPS showing is below the RR of your monitor then ES is working as intended. If the FPS showing is above your monitor's RR and you still see tearing then ES is not working for some reason as ES should unsynch the GPU to allow it to run as fast as it can but not unsynch the frame buffer from the monitor's RR so the monitor should be getting full frames displayed thus no tearing.
Now if your system passes the "runway test" but shows tearing while playing w\ the FPS above the monitor's RR then you may have some other things going on that is causing the system to slow down enough while control inputs are initiated to cause ES to unsynch the frame buffer from your monitor and cause the screen tear. Could be the vid card, but also could be CPU\system initiated as well. This is where I have found MSI AB's GPU frametime monitoring graphs invaluable for isolating CPU\system issues as well as GPU issues. It does take some time making trial runs then observing the recorded results to flesh out the data though.........
Hope this helps.
:salute
PS--Here is a video of Tom Petersen w\ Nvidia explaining Nvidia's Fast Synch and how it works. AMD's Enhanced Synch works the same way on it's own or in conjunction w\ FreeSynch........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUX8ZNkn2U
:salute
-
Does this work on gtx680?
-
Does this work on gtx680?
Hi zack1234,
From what I have read, FastSynch is available for Nvidia Pascal (10xx series) & Maxwell (9xx series) equipped GPU's at this time. I haven't found any info stating that this will work on Nvidia Kepler equipped GPU's (like your GTX 680).
Hope this helps you out.
:salute
-
Pipz was raving about his gtx1070 i might go out tommorrow and buy one :old:
In his honor :)
-
Pipz was raving about his gtx1070 i might go out tommorrow and buy one :old:
In his honor :)
:salute
-
...Hi Oboe. Now this may be where the power of the GPU's may make the difference as this Rx Vega 64 of mine would maintain under most game conditions 144 FPS (monitor RR was set in Windows @ 90 Hz) and at this speed can mask most screen tearing if the tearing is small. I know that this might get some disagreement but this is 1 of the main benefits of very high frame rate gaming... The funny part about that is this FPS just happens to coincide w\ my monitor's true max native RR of 144Hz so from my using ES it appeared to "synch" the GPU frame buffer to the true native RR of my monitor since any FPS above the 90 FPS range would disable FreeSynch automatically on this MG279Q monitor.
I don't have a Rx480 on hand to test this out but if you would, perform this test to see if Enhanced Synch is working....
When you're in a plane sitting on the runway, when you start the engine observe the prop spin up graphics along w\ the ingame FPS.....if you see any tearing of the prop blades while the prop spins up to reach idle then this is indicating that there isn't any synching occurring between the GPU frame buffer and the monitor's RR. If the FPS showing is below the RR of your monitor then ES is working as intended. If the FPS showing is above your monitor's RR and you still see tearing then ES is not working for some reason as ES should unsynch the GPU to allow it to run as fast as it can but not unsynch the frame buffer from the monitor's RR so the monitor should be getting full frames displayed thus no tearing.
Now if your system passes the "runway test" but shows tearing while playing w\ the FPS above the monitor's RR then you may have some other things going on that is causing the system to slow down enough while control inputs are initiated to cause ES to unsynch the frame buffer from your monitor and cause the screen tear. Could be the vid card, but also could be CPU\system initiated as well. This is where I have found MSI AB's GPU frametime monitoring graphs invaluable for isolating CPU\system issues as well as GPU issues. It does take some time making trial runs then observing the recorded results to flesh out the data though.........
Hope this helps.
:salute
PS--Here is a video of Tom Petersen w\ Nvidia explaining Nvidia's Fast Synch and how it works. AMD's Enhanced Synch works the same way on it's own or in conjunction w\ FreeSynch........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpUX8ZNkn2U
:salute
Hi Pudgie - I apologize I didn't get to this test until today - I had printed the instructions but they got lost amidst the pile of skinning reference materials on my desk.
Here are my results, which you may find interesting. I have a Samsung S27D590C (27" curved screen, 4ms response, refresh rate is listed as 56-72 Hz here
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/73a166e (https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/73a166e) however in game with Vsync on I get 59-60 fps)
So folowing your instructions, I get 85 fps sitting in a P-51D cockpit. When I start the prop, I noticed tearing halfway up the blade. During startup, fps dropped to 81 but after exhaust smoke clears its back to 85. Outside the cockpit, I get 100 fps looking at the prop, and still noticed tearing.
I went back to my Aces High DX9 profile in Radeon Settings, and noticed that there is a "Wait for Vertical Refresh" option here also, so I selected "Enhanced Sync" there and restarted AH. Then I got 88 fps from the cockpit, and did not notice any tearing. Outside the plane, I maintained 100fps without noticeable tearing.
I'll start TrackIR now and see if I get tearing when I turn my head...
-
I bought gtx 1060 so it will run fast synch? :old:
I disabed v synch and in 3D settings i picked fast.
I am now getting 120 fps, it was 60 fps before, so what is it i gain?
I only sat on the runway, to see frames (got proxy from noob doing radar) will i get better results from this frame rate?
-
Zack.
I have done the same thing with my 1070. There is a youtube video that explains it quite well by an nvidea spokesman. You might want to google search it.
My take from the video is that the card will render frames unrestrained and only display at the refresh rate of the monitor. This eliminates screen tearing and reduces latency.
In game, you will see fps rates very high (I have seen fps over 300) but display on monitor is only at it's refresh rate.
Without fast sync in nvidea control panel and v-sync off in game you will have tearing.
-
Edit of my last post... Fast sync is ON in control panel and v-sync off in game.
-
OOPS...disregard my edit...my original post was correct. Sorry...my bad.
-
Hi Pudgie - I apologize I didn't get to this test until today - I had printed the instructions but they got lost amidst the pile of skinning reference materials on my desk.
Here are my results, which you may find interesting. I have a Samsung S27D590C (27" curved screen, 4ms response, refresh rate is listed as 56-72 Hz here
https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/73a166e (https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/73a166e) however in game with Vsync on I get 59-60 fps)
So folowing your instructions, I get 85 fps sitting in a P-51D cockpit. When I start the prop, I noticed tearing halfway up the blade. During startup, fps dropped to 81 but after exhaust smoke clears its back to 85. Outside the cockpit, I get 100 fps looking at the prop, and still noticed tearing.
I went back to my Aces High DX9 profile in Radeon Settings, and noticed that there is a "Wait for Vertical Refresh" option here also, so I selected "Enhanced Sync" there and restarted AH. Then I got 88 fps from the cockpit, and did not notice any tearing. Outside the plane, I maintained 100fps without noticeable tearing.
I'll start TrackIR now and see if I get tearing when I turn my head...
Hi Oboe,
No problem.....I've also been a little preoccupied myself as I've recently purchased my 2nd retirement present ('09 Ford Mustang GT Glass Top 45th Anniversary Edition 4.6L V8 w\ 5-speed Ford Tremec 3650 manual tranny black on black) to go to when I get a notion to do a little runnin..............
:D
Yeah, if you've set up a profile for AHIII in Radeon Settings you will have to set it there.......as you've already found out. Otherwise the Global Settings would have worked if the settings were set up there w\o a profile set up (this is the way I am using Radeon Settings on my box w\ my Rx Vega64 vid card as I'm using a Windows CMD-created shortcut for AHIII which will allow me to automatically assign CPU priority and affinity for AHIII exclusively when I start the game which won't work thru a profile within Radeon Settings).
Glad you got it going on now!
Enjoy!
:salute
-
:O That's retiring in style, sir! Congratulations and enjoy!
So far I think there's something smoother or more fluid during head movement in TrackIR with VSync enabled. I can't quantify it; my fps is in the low 100s with Enhanced Sync enabled (which doesn't seem right, as I though you'd said it would limit to monitor's refresh rate). I'll keep trying it both ways before I make a final judgement though...
-
:O That's retiring in style, sir! Congratulations and enjoy!
So far I think there's something smoother or more fluid during head movement in TrackIR with VSync enabled. I can't quantify it; my fps is in the low 100s with Enhanced Sync enabled (which doesn't seem right, as I though you'd said it would limit to monitor's refresh rate). I'll keep trying it both ways before I make a final judgement though...
When ES is enabled, the GPU runs unhindered from the monitor's RR so the GPU will run as fast as it can rendering graphics frames but the frame buffers will only flip fully finished frames in sequence to the monitor at the monitor's RR thus no screen tearing....as long as the GPU can maintain FPS above the monitor's RR. This is accomplished by how ES uses the 3rd frame buffer to allow the GPU to render as fast as it can but only send fully finished graphics frames in sequence to the monitor at the monitor's native (or manually set) RR to eliminate screen tearing.
Most FPS monitoring softwares measure FPS off the GPU side of the graphics pipeline (which doesn't pick up the flip rate between the frame buffer to monitor) so the AHIII FPS counter is showing the actual GPU rendering rate of frames being sent into the frame buffer(s), not the actual flip rate of frames being sent from the frame buffers to the monitor as this side is intiated from the monitor's signaling itself.......
As an aside, this is why you've heard\read that it doesn't matter what you see in the AHIII FPS counter, the graphics frames are ALWAYS being displayed at the MONITOR'S RR and NOT at the FPS rate you see in game as long as VSync is turned off....this is the rate you actually are "seeing" on screen and the only way to actually speed this rate up is to increase the monitor's RR. Only when VSync is on is when the GPU rendering rate in FPS is tied to the monitor's RR. This linking of rendering to monitor signalling is where you're seeing the "smoothness" in motion coming from. Think of this in terms of signal timing instead of just signal rate.....thus you will now understand the importance of frametimes in ms (milliseconds) in addition to just framerate in FPS. I would venture to say that IMHO frametime is slightly more important to focus on nowadays than framerate is when it comes to total onscreen graphics performance as most of todays graphics cards, regardless of whether it's a Nvidia or AMD graphics card, can generally meet\exceed 60 FPS (or 60Hz) under a decently high graphics rendering load so the impetus should be on how SMOOTH does the card perform at speed..........
This aspect of a graphics pipeline's operation is no different from just using VSync off in relation to monitor's RR, which is what ES is trying to use to optimize (read reduce here) control input lag and at the same time eliminate the screen tearing that usually results from the GPU running unsync'd from the monitor's RR........
Hope this helps you out.
:salute
PS--IMHO, the main reason for upping graphics power today is to increase monitor resolution and\or RR.....or new tech such as VR which requires increased graphics rendering capability....or to just max out graphics rendering settings within your game. So if a user isn't gonna do these things (upgrade monitor, go to VR or max out graphics rendering) and are using at least a 3rd gen graphics card or newer then save yourselves some money as far as graphics cards are concerned....
I have a video that I recorded of my current box running AHIII on my spare XFX Radeon R9 290X graphics card (3rd gen) at stock clocks using the exact same graphics settings I used w\ my Sapphire Radeon R9 FuryX graphics card using the exact same driver and driver settings (was in transition to my current setup at the time) showing that this 290X was more than capable of running the game in excess of 60 FPS consistently (never dropped below 78 FPS) w\o issue.
:salute
-
I am now getting 120fps on my 60 fsp monitor using fast sync.
So if i set everything to high in game it will not damage the card?
So V synch in game is just to stop tearing on the frames and disabling this frees me to use the full potential of the gtx 1060?
Its all very confusing
-
I am now getting 120fps on my 60 fsp monitor using fast sync.
So if i set everything to high in game it will not damage the card?
So V synch in game is just to stop tearing on the frames and disabling this frees me to use the full potential of the gtx 1060?
Its all very confusing
zack you now need a new gaming monitor to unleash the power of your new 1060 6gb. I recently got a 144mhz screen and the difference is amazing.
I will even go as far to say I do not notice the DX11 micro warp anymore. Everything is so much smoother.
-
The graphic settings can be upped with a new monitor and its smoother?
So the DX11 micro stutters are down to the monitor?
What monitor did you buy as I have never been able to choose one?
-
I had a 22" 60 hz from about 8 years ago that ran 1680x1080 2ms
now went up to 24" 144mhz 1920x1020 1ms both Asus would have gone 27" if I wasnt confined to my cupboard. More pixels = more detail and more load on the card. So far it's been locked in at 144fps even in and around towns low with guns firing etc. Still need to get in a really big battle.
Monitors now have g sync for nvidia or amd freesync however nvidia ones are way more expensive :( so I just went with a slightly older model that still had the high refresh.
Haven't played that many hours in game yet but it does look bigger, better, smoother. My rounds and tracers look good all the way out to 6-800 yards and no stutters to speak of. Just need to retrain my brain to shoot a bit earlier.
I wouldnt want to say the dx11 stutter was down to the monitor it shouldnt have been but whatever its not noticeable now.
-
What asus model monitor?
-
Just to note, as of the new AMD Radeon Settings Adrenalin update w\ driver 17.12.1 Enhanced Synch is now operating w\o issue.
Now when this is enabled within the driver, it will override the game's VSync setting and decouple the GPU from the monitor signal as designed.
Oh and ES is now operational on all Radeon GCN-based GPU's as well as w\ all API's................
:salute