Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Squire on November 14, 2017, 12:03:16 AM
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There still seems to be some misunderstandings regarding the T+60 rule.
Aircraft that launch at T+0 have one hour and one hour only to attack their targets. It does not matter if the target has already been hit or not. That is completely irrelevant. Strike planes MUST hit their targets by T+60 and there is no exception to that at all. If they do not they are in violation of the FSO rules.
Ok, carry on! :salute
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What about if they're on a conveyor belt?
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Not even if they have green eggs and ham.
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Ignorant person here....
No attacks beyond T+60?
Example: I am in a bomber and drop first half of eggs at T+58, make a wide turn beyond T+60 and I cannot drop remaining bombs?
Example2: I am in a strike plane, hit my target, re-armed at a near friendly airfield and am back en route to my target, I cannot release those bombs or fire my guns on target if T = 60+.... BUT the enemy can shoot me down? (in this case it's literally not worth risking an airframe to MAYBE make it back to target before T=+60 eh?
:O AM I picking up what you're putting down?
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Ignorant person here....
No attacks beyond T+60?
Example: I am in a bomber and drop first half of eggs at T+58, make a wide turn beyond T+60 and I cannot drop remaining bombs?
Example2: I am in a strike plane, hit my target, re-armed at a near friendly airfield and am back en route to my target, I cannot release those bombs or fire my guns on target if T = 60+.... BUT the enemy can shoot me down? (in this case it's literally not worth risking an airframe to MAYBE make it back to target before T=+60 eh?
:O AM I picking up what you're putting down?
What he is saying is that....bomb laden aircraft must hit the target by T+60....second attacks are fine but you have to be landed by T+120 or be counted as lost....
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What he is saying is that....bomb laden aircraft must hit the target by T+60....second attacks are fine but you have to be landed by T+120 or be counted as lost....
Correct :aok
TC
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Ok, makes sense... thx gents.
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Please be sure to edit the Official FSO rules on AHevents to remove the ambiguity over this issue.
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Please be sure to edit the Official FSO rules on AHevents to remove the ambiguity over this issue.
I don't see the ambiguity here. It states all targets must be attacked within 60 minutes, and orders written such that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. It's pretty much a given that after the initial attack, anything goes until T+120. If a pilot doesn't understand that, then his squad leaders have failed him.
- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60.
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I don't see the ambiguity here. It states all targets must be attacked within 60 minutes, and orders written such that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. It's pretty much a given that after the initial attack, anything goes until T+120. If a pilot doesn't understand that, then his squad leaders have failed him.
There must be some ambiguity if the post was made in the first place. :)
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I don't see the ambiguity here. It states all targets must be attacked within 60 minutes, and orders written such that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. It's pretty much a given that after the initial attack, anything goes until T+120. If a pilot doesn't understand that, then his squad leaders have failed him.
I'm not going throw the squad leaders that I argued with over this point under the bus, but when they cite the existing rule and interpret it incorrectly - clearly there is a problem with how it is written.
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I do see the ambiguity they are talking about. Not saying I agree with it but if we must to keep the action concentrated here is probably what they are keying in on:
- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60.
If an attack consists of several squadrons and one squad in full strength hits the target ahead of the T+60 mark and all others arrive at T+60 mark then the rules are fulfilled right?
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Waystin has highlighted the ambiguity nicely. As it reads now a target only has to be hit before t+60 by the initial strike force that only has to consist of one squad level number of pilots; any other squads assigned to attack the same target can do so at anytime as long as that initial squad sized strike force attacks before t+60
If you want all squads assigned to attack a target to make their first attacks before t+60 then the rule should say exactly that. I.E. "All squads assigned to attack a target must make their first attack before T+60" There. Now just copy paste the part in quotations into the rule and you wont have to keep making these same interpretation clarification threads every couple of months. :cheers:
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If I remember correctly the “squadron strength” rule was added because we would have 1 or 2 jabos rush in to hit a target and draw the defenders down so the true strike could come in high after T+60. That has morphed into having one full squad hit the target with the remaining attackers hitting after T+60. It’s merely a wording loophole that is being exploited. Just need to close it with “all” attackers must put ordinance on target by T+60. That doesn’t mean all ords. So if you want to make a second pass you can.
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If I remember correctly the “squadron strength” rule was added because we would have 1 or 2 jabos rush in to hit a target and draw the defenders down so the true strike could come in high after T+60. That has morphed into having one full squad hit the target with the remaining attackers hitting after T+60. It’s merely a wording loophole that is being exploited. Just need to close it with “all” attackers must put ordinance on target by T+60. That doesn’t mean all ords. So if you want to make a second pass you can.
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This. :aok
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I was flying near Devil5O5 when this discussion was going on over VOX, on the way to target by the way. THERE IS a lot of misunderstanding here. The rules page needs to be updated to take out all of the ambiguity... Please...
:salute
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I'm not going throw the squad leaders that I argued with over this point under the bus, but when they cite the existing rule and interpret it incorrectly - clearly there is a problem with how it is written.
There is no problem here. Everyone who takes a bomb puts it on target by T60. The thing that surprises me is... that this surprises anyone. When I am setup I routinely call "T+60 Bombs on target." If this is unclear to anyone, it is not any longer.
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Wait... I also freely admit that The Unforgiven violated this rule 2 or 3 FSOs ago in the Battle of Britain. Do you think I gave Doc4 fertilizer about breaking the rule??? No!!! His behind was naturally tanned. Yes, the rule has always been Bombs on Target by T +60.
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OK - I'm going to admit this was not how I interpreted the rule.
I'd interpreted it as all targets had to be hit by a creditable force by T+60 - meaning at least a squad of bombers or jabos plus escorts. However if a second wave was timed to arrive a T+70, after the initial wave had passed through, I'd assumed that was fair game. I've always tried to set up defense to handle that situation as well.
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You see what happens when the corporate knowledge is lost?
Originally there was no such rule. Nothing like it. Not even a thought was given. It was more about "realism" (and there were many arguments about that too.)
Those days you didn't even have to hit all the targets. The CMs and designers were operating with a different vision to today.
What happened occasionally was that a squad thought it had been bypassed and gave up the game (and the waiting) and landed before T+120. It does get late for some and they do get tired.
Suddenly, a swarm of bombers would fly over the target obliterating it all with about 15 mins to go in the frame. Nyah Nyah would the attacking CIC say with maturity. Meh! would be the reply.
It was always argued that the concept of "hurry up and wait" was a genuine reflection of real-life combat (which FSO was emulating somewhat more accurately way back then).
Eventually, the player base expanded with lots more young 'uns coming in and the demand for action aplenty grew louder and louder. CMs changed too.
After a forum meltdown, or two, it was decided that to give the guys and gals something definite to do on those lonely nights, some sort of attack had to be made on a target by the 60 min mark.
This would surely satisfy everyone right?
Well, no. There were a couple of CiCs that didn't like being constrained by the new and more exciting rule set. On at least one occasion, a CIC sent a fighter on an errand to strafe each target consecutively before the 60 minute mark. Then back to the good 'ole tactics ---------> Forum meltdown.
The rule was amended that you had to attack the target with "ordnance" and by no less than a "credible force" before the 60 minute mark. Despite many arguments over what comprised credibility, we moved on. Because each and every FSO has its own feature set (sometimes no ord at all) it was left to the design CM to qualify for each frame what a credible force was.
This worked well.....until it stopped. We do get new CMs every now and then you know?
Now a few more years have floated past and we have a bunch of new younger aviating aggressors who want everybody to be shooting at everybody else, as soon as possible and within closer binding strictures. There is now in play (after a relatively recent forum meltdown) the "new" concept that ALL who take off with ordnance must "attempt" to deliver it on target by T+60.
BTW, I look forward to many more meltdowns on the concept of "attempt" before I pass on. There's been quite a few already.
Do we need to re-write the rules to make things even blacker and whiter? It's up to you. I caution though. In a recent FSO we had a design where there wasn't a requirement to hit all the targets. Deja-vu? Everybody had fun, just like they did back in the day before that kind of thing was banned after a forum meltdown. Ah those old fading memories.
Perhaps we can just get it sorted without a meltdown.
IF you thought what you were doing a couple months back was legal by hitting after T+60 ..... well it was. That was the rule and that was the way it was intended to work. Your memory is working ok. It's been that way for a decade.
IF you thought that this week's FSO required you to "attempt" to drop your ord at the target by T+60 then you were right too! Your memory is working ok.
We could just forgo the niceties and get into a quality meltdown if that's what is needed? Where is the punchy emoticon?
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Pretty accurate description Dantoo.
I have interepreted the rule that ALL aircraft carrying bombs have to be dropped on their assigned objective before T+60 since September of 2011.
Here is why... The reason and announcement.
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,319644.0.html
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,319676.0.html
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Huh - you live and learn. I just re-read the rules on ahevents.net and can see the intent now. However my read of the rules prior to this had never lead to that interpretation - and I'm hardly new at this. I probably need to spend more time in the forums...
In any case, point taken and acknowledged. Don't think I've ever put out orders that didn't adhere to the T-60 rule so its kind of moot. Also, the drop in numbers is making it harder and harder to have enough assets to have a significant second strike wave.
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I see the ambiguity and really do not see the need to define it, unless it becomes a point of contention. Something we do not need in what has now become a fairly tight knit small community. For the Pigs if we are assigned an attack mission and it takes about 18 minutes to get to the target field, you better be in position 19 minutes after fields open! :aok
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In the particular frame this happened there wasn't any foul play, the CIC put out orders with the intent that all planes hit by t+60. However, out of 3 groups of Bettys, 1 group was somewhat behind schedule due to the flight path being quite a bit longer. Then, the question was raised of "would we get penalized?" if we hit at t+70ish even if that wasn't the intent. In the end we chalked it up as a "This is a military operation. Nothing ever goes according to plan." situation.
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Frame CiC's must assign squads to hit all targets within the first hour of the frame.
- Frame CiC's must assign squads to defend all targets during the first hour.
- Targets will be attacked and defended by a credible force. Unless stated otherwise this will be a minimum of 12 players assigned per target. This can consist of a single squad or multiple squads.
- All targets must be attacked within 60 minutes of the start of the frame. They must be attacked with explosive ordinance (rockets and bombs) by a full squadron. Feints and diversions prior to a larger strike force do not satisfy the requirements of this rule. Simply strafing a target with fighters does not satisfy the requirements of this rule. CIC's are expected to construct their orders in such a way that all initial attack aircraft reach their targets by T+60. Administrator CM's may request copies of orders to evaluate the observance of this rule.
- CiCs shall not organize a mission with orders to attack more than one objective in succession. More simply stated, one objective, one mission. If there are 8 offensive objectives for one side during a frame, the CIC shall ensure that there are eight attack missions, each assigned to attack a single objective. This rule is intended to prevent CIC's from overwhelming the defenders of a single target. For example, a large combined force of 60 aircraft attacking three bases that are each singly defended by a squad of 15 or 20. Please see examples under the Example CiC Orders section
Direct from the AH Events website.
My question is as follows:
Can a CIC construct orders to send strictly the ordinance aircraft at credible force standard while keeping all fighters divided by defensive targets to be an overwhelming force for each defensive target?
Otherwise, we will need a rule to state that all attacking forces must have a credible escort force.
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After strike planes have hit their targets of course they can re arm and re sortie all the times they want. Bombers and fighters in FSO are allowed to refuel and rearm and go back at it...that's never been an issue.
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we will need a rule to state that all attacking forces must have a credible escort force.
No we are not going to be requiring that. If a CiC wants to send in an attack force with no escort or sweep that's his call.
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Then, the question was raised of "would we get penalized?" if we hit at t+70ish even if that wasn't the intent.
It would be up to the Admin to decide. It's up to the CMs to ensure that the strikes can be carried out in time. Each case is different.
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In the particular frame this happened there wasn't any foul play, the CIC put out orders with the intent that all planes hit by t+60. However, out of 3 groups of Bettys, 1 group was somewhat behind schedule due to the flight path being quite a bit longer. Then, the question was raised of "would we get penalized?" if we hit at t+70ish even if that wasn't the intent. In the end we chalked it up as a "This is a military operation. Nothing ever goes according to plan." situation.
Sounds a lot like the mission I drew up in the last BoB we ran. I had the timings for the Ju88s to hit the two targets at approximately T+55. I had ran tests offline, laid out the course for the bombers, delayed escort launch to save fuel and everything. Damn weather man failed to inform me of the incoming front which was producing a W-E wind at altitude which caused us to arrive late. Zero points... and a thoroughly enjoyable frame anyway as the fights were intense :D
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Spikes:
That situation is by no means unique. It has happened lots of times.
Other problems can arise for instance when an inbound raid runs into one going the other way or similar fun/horrors.
There are many good reasons why a raid can be forced to hit after T+60. There are so so many times that a raid didn't even get half way before being wiped out. The defenders circling the base meantime had nothing to do because somebody ate their lunch. Heck, once we even had to refuel to get to the danged target and that slowed us too much. Another time there was a down-draught in play that stopped our bombers getting above 500ft after an hour at full throttle. We had no hope of making it.
The only important thing is that the PLAN was to hit before T+60.
There has been a bunch of attempts to make it Black and White and every time it is put forward it is knocked down as it should be.
The rule is all about intent and it needs to stay there at that level.
The corollary to the attack rule has been the required defence rule. That sort of reads that each target has to be defended by a "credible force" up until T+60.
One one occasion when I was the CIC I moved the defence group forward to intercept an incoming force. They completely and utterly missed them. Flew right by.
By the time they got back to the target the place was a mess and the attackers had departed.
There were screams that I had broken the rules by not providing a credible defence. My own personal defence was that the credible force, somewhat incredibly, had missed the credible attack force. What penalty should have applied? The other side had already cleaned up on points. Should a CIC be absolutely forced to follow a script?
Meh.
My advice is to keep it grey. Let the CMs sort out if anybody is deliberately trying to short-change the night shift. If somebody does something dumb then put them in M3s next week.