Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Chilli on December 12, 2017, 11:54:05 AM
Title: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 12, 2017, 11:54:05 AM
180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to... please :pray
This ticks me off every time and eventually log off :embarrassed: After 10 + years you would think that I should have the answer, instead :ahand every time.
This usually occurs with a Spitfire or Ki84, but not limited to those airframes. I see a guy low near his runway heading towards me (I am tracking another target, so am watching out for his head on attempt, because once I pass him he should be no threat)>>>>>> WRONG..... :headscratch: He is able to spring into the air climb and 180 degree turn and gain on my 6 o'clock from long range shot position. :confused:
How, and what kind of physics supports this?? Maybe I will be around for another 10+ years to exploit such a maneuver if available in any of my favorite aircraft (depending on my sight).
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Wiley on December 12, 2017, 11:59:21 AM
Film?
Wiley.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 12, 2017, 12:05:41 PM
Do you mean an Immelmann. Do you know how to read energy states on a merge?
Like Wiley says, an ahf film would provide answers.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Delirium on December 12, 2017, 12:09:26 PM
I'll bet good money he was vulching the vulchers by keeping his speed up to catch someone unawares. Like other said, the film would be very helpful otherwise it is difficult to take this complaint seriously.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Wiley on December 12, 2017, 12:10:31 PM
Sorry, that was a bit glib. What Shida's leading toward is kind of my point. Pretty much every "How did he do that?!" comment I've ever seen pretty much boiled down to the enemy having more E than the guy making the claim thought.
The other main thing people don't realize is, a 30mph or less difference in speed when a guy is 400-600 off your dead six gives him PLENTY of time to line up a shot.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Max on December 12, 2017, 12:14:58 PM
An Immelmann would appear (assuming the enemy is at your 12:00) to have your opponent pulling into a climb with a roll at the top and now he's pointed back at you, right?
I was in pursuit of a TA152 in a spate yesterday...about 2k out the icon is now reversed back at me and closing fast. I observed no gain in his alt before he reversed. Is this what you're speaking of Chilli? It leaves me :headscratch: too.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 12, 2017, 12:22:52 PM
Thanks Wiley and Nshida,
I don't film most encounters, and I just read another thread in which the turn rate / turn speeds were discussed and explained fairly well. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,390709.msg5189711.html#msg5189711 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,390709.msg5189711.html#msg5189711)
Delirium, do you go to Vegas much (I hope not).
Max I think this sounds close to right, I only question how are they seemingly clinging to their airspeed "E". The problem is with ME trying to execute the same.
You see, I am trying to learn here and not call out anyone else's game play, only to advance my own.
Next time I find a furball, I will try to remember and film.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Wiley on December 12, 2017, 12:25:15 PM
I'd suggest next time you notice it, film and post. Anything anybody says at this point is generalizations and virtually meaningless otherwise.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Delirium on December 12, 2017, 12:42:40 PM
Nope, I only bet on a sure thing. The sure thing in this case is he handled his E much better than you did or hid his energy state from you. Again, without film it near impossible to discern what occurred, you could claim a 450 knot Me262 out turned our Zeke and the discussion will still not go any further.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 12, 2017, 01:18:24 PM
Every plane in this game can out-turn every other if their relative energy states and positions are in certain arrangement. If you see some bat-turn then study the film fastidiously and see why - or ask the question on here.
No manouevre with our low levels of thrust costs no energy but they don't have to - just less than you will hurt. Also some BFM is more recycle-friendly.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 12, 2017, 01:22:44 PM
I just read another thread in which the turn rate / turn speeds were discussed and explained fairly well. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,390709.msg5189711.html#msg5189711)
Hey that was me! I must have been channeling Guynemer :banana:
I was in pursuit of a TA152 in a spate yesterday...about 2k out the icon is now reversed back at me and closing fast. I observed no gain in his alt before he reversed.
Have you got film Max? Interesting topic.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: 100Coogn on December 12, 2017, 01:30:54 PM
An Immelmann would appear (assuming the enemy is at your 12:00) to have your opponent pulling into a climb with a roll at the top and now he's pointed back at you, right?
I was in pursuit of a TA152 in a spate yesterday...about 2k out the icon is now reversed back at me and closing fast. I observed no gain in his alt before he reversed. Is this what you're speaking of Chilli? It leaves me :headscratch: too.
Any loss of alt? Maybe it was a split-s... Only guessing here.
Coogan
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 12, 2017, 02:02:22 PM
Nope, I only bet on a sure thing. The sure thing in this case is he handled his E much better than you did or hid his energy state from you. Again, without film it near impossible to discern what occurred, you could claim a 450 knot Me262 out turned our Zeke and the discussion will still not go any further.
Here poses MY QUESTION: How does any physical object reverse direction and maintain high percentage of it's speed, while an object continuing in a straight line is overcome? I am certain that a film will not be that hard to obtain as soon as I am able to access the game again with playable connectivity. So, handling E really doesn't seem to match your sure bet? We'll see as soon as I can I will post a film of such, and as you have said then we can have a discussion on what OCCURRED.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Mongoose on December 12, 2017, 02:09:35 PM
You will seriously find out that you can get a lot of information from a recorded flight. I have learned a lot from watching films and observing the speed altitude and distance that is recorded.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 12, 2017, 03:53:37 PM
But always brings into question, at least in my mind, the recorded data is from what is happening on the front end of my machine, and may not exactly correlate to what is happening on the front end of the other online players. <<< Technical stuff that I know nothing about...... and even less than I do about chandelles and wingovers.... :headscratch:
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Wiley on December 12, 2017, 03:57:31 PM
But always brings into question, at least in my mind, the recorded data is from what is happening on the front end of my machine, and may not exactly correlate to what is happening on the front end of the other online players. <<< Technical stuff that I know nothing about...... and even less than I do about chandelles and wingovers.... :headscratch:
It'll give you enough granularity to see what's going on. The ideal would be film from both ends, but it should be close enough.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: mustng2 on December 13, 2017, 05:36:52 PM
Always record (set to auto record in flight options) and always save. Saving is a reversible decision, not recording or not saving is not reversible. Please see my post in the wish list forum. Almost every time I had questions about an occurrence in the game, the film answers it.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 16, 2017, 02:04:13 PM
Please take a look at both my cockpit view on first merge and his cockpit view on merge.
What I saw was a ratchet like movement putting his nose Head to Head with mine.
All that I am asking here is if it is possibly a function of lag that has my front end out of position / unable to read other player's true heading???
It looked like a pretty smooth immelmann to me, he loses about half his speed. After the merge you lose your speed much faster than him. :D The view from anothers plane in the film view is approximations so that is why it isn't as smooth as the view from your cockpit.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: bustr on December 16, 2017, 03:48:54 PM
Is there any chance his position and the strangeness being seen has the same issue as the collision model screen shot examples of what two player's screens showed them the moment player "A" runs into player "B". Player "A" sees player "B" 100ft from him while player "B" sees player "A" ram his plane.
I did an experiment this week on Oceania furballing at the center island. I was in a spit16 merging with an FM2, I kept flying straight past the FM2 at about 300mph on the dial, 2 hundred and something IAS on my HUD. The FM2 dove behind me on my line of travel, pulled up while turning and stayed on my tail 600 by the Icon for 30 seconds. I stayed in my 6 view from the merge through his icon change from 600 to 800. Quite an amazing thing to watch. How did I know my speed, I have the HUD readout set in the center of my screen and it follows my PoV as I look around. I was gaining speed around the time his icon changed to 800. So yes the icon range cycled 600 to 800 during all of this but, I've watch FM2, F4f, A6m and Brewsters pull this off many times over the years. And it's criminal how the Yak3 can do this...... :O
I hear many players make the same remark on range over and over again, how can he do that when I'm at speed, gaining speed leaving him behind me and he had to turn 180 just to follow me. So just like with collisions, does player A not see something player B is doing that allows him to turn 180, keep his E, and then catch up with player A who is flying at speed away from player B during all of this? And a film, the only way to see this is if both parties submit a film of the same fight unaware the other party was running a film capture of the fight. Humans are very fallible and the knowledge that you are actively experimenting to film this phenomenon by two parties interferes with the experiment.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: 8thJinx on December 16, 2017, 04:29:32 PM
"Rate Kills."
A plane flying at maximum turning rate at sustained corner speed will have the upper hand over a slower plane trying to minimize its turn radius.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Kingpin on December 16, 2017, 04:39:28 PM
180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to... please :pray
Hi Chilli,
You've posted 2 questions in this thread, so I will address the original posted question (above) first.
Based on what you described, what you are likely seeing from many players making a 180-degree turn with apparent closure after the maneuver is just a form of a Basic Flight Maneuver (BFM) called a Half Cuban 8:
Done correctly and smoothly, you can actually GAIN E while performing a Half Cuban-8 maneuver because it is a very E-conserving maneuver. It briefly trades speed for altitude while performing the vertical turn (180), then trades the altitude back to speed while accelerating in the downhill leg. You also have both gravity plus your engine thrust accelerating you in the downhill leg, so this can allow you to end the maneuver with more E than you started. (While waiting for players to show up for appointments in the TA, I often pass the time practicing Cuban 8's and noting my speed as I pass a given point (runway) over the airfield. I can judge how smoothly I have performed the maneuver, or what certain variations of the maneuver do, by monitoring my altitude and speed each pass. Thanks to Morfiend for teaching me this practice method many years ago!)
Employed into Air Combat Maneuvering (ACM) if you come into a merge faster and only slightly lower than the enemy (a tactic I call "hiding E") and then employ an early/lead-turn as you pass under his nose/belly while making your climbing turn, you can often complete the half Cuban eight quite close to the enemy and with some closure speed. This will leave him wondering "how did he do that?", which is why I expect it is what you saw.
This is the reason it is important to record and save any films where you have a "how did he do that?!" moment. AH films definitively tell you the relative energy states (speed and altitude) at any point in a fight. This can often answer the "how" in what someone did. Then there is the SA question that films help to answer: "What did that enemy do just BEFORE he engaged you?" This is an important thing to know. One clue in your post is that you were "tracking another target", so perhaps the enemy in question had just dove to gain some energy or had gone level for a while to reach his max level speed and he was faster than you expected. Judging an enemy's speed based solely on closure rate is very difficult -- one reason the "hiding E" tactic works so well. If the enemy comes into the merge faster than you (or faster than you anticipated), what can appear as an "impossible" maneuver could really be just as simple as his performing the BFM in the picture above. A film will tell this for certain.
Hope this helps!
<S> KP
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 17, 2017, 02:22:49 AM
All that I am asking here is if it is possibly a function of lag that has my front end out of position / unable to read other player's true heading???
No. It's a function of something else.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 17, 2017, 10:27:37 AM
Chilli - oversimplifying quite a bit - you lost this fight most pointedly because you did not neutralise a perfectly in plane nose-to-nose arrangement against an opponent at a momentarily faster turn rate and smaller radius and pressed the first emerging 50/50 shot you got, unnecessarily while holding all the advantage.
In ACM, energy, position and tactics are all relative not absolute. Being higher is not necessarily having more energy and having more energy does not guarantee a win if you don't know what to do with it. When you saw him turn into you, you should have gotten out of plane and used your superior energy to chase him down and out manoeuvre him.
Things you can work on:
Observing relative altitude is easy and a component of the relative energy states. Take some time to observe your opponent. Is he moving fast against the landscape? In this case he was. In a nose-on merge is the closing speed twice your airspeed or more? What would that mean if it is more? Is the closing speed less than twice yours, what would that mean? What does being faster suggest? Slower?
Go quietly to the TA or book an appointment with a trainer or read on the internet until you understand what corner speed is and the implication of your opponent being closer to his than you are to yours, both above and below.
Start filming. If you see something strange, upload it here and ask for suggestions.
Try to become less reactive. Integrate experience to being able to anticipate what's coming next. What is he doing, why is he trying to do that?
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 17, 2017, 01:46:12 PM
Yes, very helpful. I have been watching commercial training films on BFM and at least becoming more aware of what they are and what they are called. The Half Cuban 8 is not one that I have encountered, but one that I will attempt to practice. Thank you.
Bustr most correctly examined my film question in my opinion. Again, thank you.
So just like with collisions, does player A not see something player B is doing that allows him to turn 180, keep his E, and then catch up with player A who is flying at speed away from player B during all of this? And a film, the only way to see this is if both parties submit a film of the same fight unaware the other party was running a film capture of the fight.
In this film the original question posted was altered, to "how can I tell what he is doing?" (sort of). After my examination of the film I can see that he is "looping" over into a nose to nose position. During the encounter it was only evident that he was zoom climbing. It wasn't until I had to push my nose downward to track him, that his climb had flattened out, and a split second later that I noticed he was nose to nose (airspeed for me 465 and his 265; so closing speed 730).
The limitation of the film, also produced further evidence of "a function of something else" I clearly landed more rounds in or near his engine compartment. I assume that I received a cannon round in my engine, as the engine quit and my windscreen was oiled :headscratch: but the damage did not occur until all of he was well past. For the lack of any other word, I say lag. It looks very familiar to what I was seeing when I attempted to play on satellite connection.
So, back to the question, is the internet playing a part in foggy SA? Sure I could have done things differently. I didn't include the entire 28 minute film to take up your time.
Lesson learned: Keep practicing and expect the unexpected, also.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 18, 2017, 12:51:41 AM
I have been watching commercial training films on BFM and at least becoming more aware of what they are and what they are called. The Half Cuban 8 is not one that I have encountered, but one that I will attempt to practice. Thank you.
BFM is great to let you practice manoeuvres at the edge of your plane's envelope. Contiguously pay attention to what they do to your altitude, energy and position. Especially be mindful of the effects of gravity. BFM is the notes, ACM the music.
but the damage did not occur until all of he was well past.
If I have understood the modelling correctly, that's just lag. On his end it's a clean shot, his machine sends that to the server which in turn tells you running version of AH that you get this kind of damage. Incredible we are able to fight people all over the world at all really. But the cause of your damage was poor tactical execution and a misread of his energy state coupled with some shortcoming of tactical knowledge. Sorry if that stings a bit but injections can do that. You'll feel better later.
It would be penny wise and pound stupid to conclude your gunnery needs improving from this experience. Expanding your ACM will give you unpressured shots while your opponent's guns are pointing safely away from yourself. In a fight the relative angles and energy (which gives you angles) is a good way to start thinking about your overall tactical options.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Kingpin on December 18, 2017, 02:28:35 AM
Lesson learned: Keep practicing and expect the unexpected, also.
Actually, I was going to say that you might have expected this. Always expect an opponent to try to pull his nose onto you at every merge, if he can. Had you come into that first merge expecting the HO, you could have prepared for that with a little vertical or horizontal separation. Had you expected and avoided the HO, you would have owned the fight from there.
By the way, I am not pointing this out as criticism, as it was hard to tell when exactly he was pointing at you. However, I wanted to make a point about SA. That with a little Situational Awareness thinking, you can "anticipate an expected move" based on what the enemy has just done previously.
In the case of your film, let's look at what you know coming into the fight and how to employ that information:
1) He just dove from a few thousand feet, shot the radar and extended low out of the ack. 2) Given that he just dove from several thousand feet and is in a Spit XVI, he is fast. 3) Fast means he has some energy, and energy means some maneuvering options. 4) He is on the deck (low), so only some maneuvers are available. (He can't split-S!) 5) You are 1v1 and near your own base, so additional immediate or unseen threats are unlikely (you should know how many cons are in the area, as the dar just went down) 6) He was porking the base and seemed to ignore the threat of your presence, so he may not be the "dogfighting type" (the last part of this is an assumption, or possibility, but I think a reasonable one).
You know all these things coming into the fight, without really having to think about them. Most importantly, they tell you a lot about what can and should happen next. Yes, he could go into a zoom climb, but why would he do that? You were higher, so you'll easily catch him and kill him. Assuming he knows you're there, he's far more likely to try to turn into you and put his nose on you (again, a reasonable assumption to anticipate this for a "non-dogfighting type" opponent at a disadvantage).
So, the next thought process in the SA analysis is: "Do I need to HO him? Do I have other options? Do I have time to kill him in a couple passes, rather than joust him on the first pass?" Given that you are next to your own base and don't have any other nearby threats, you have time to maneuver with him. No need to go for the first pass kill. So, set up for HO-avoidance, be ready for him to turn, and know you can easily kill him after his first turn.
This brings me to my overall point. I think many players fall victim to trying to kill everything in one pass. There are times when that is necessary, but there are many more times when it is not (as is the case in your film). When I was taught virtual dogfighting, I was taught to approach an offensive fight (with advantage) in 3 steps:
1) Assess their Energy and Awareness. How the con reacts to you on the first merge will usually tell you these two things. Think of the first merge as "feeling the con out" and seeing how he reacts. If he doesn't react at all? Great, you're shooting him and he's dead (he failed his awareness test!) If he does he react, his first maneuver can then tell you a lot. He pulled hard for the HO? Great, he bled E and is probably going to be an easy kill. He did a hard, flat break turn away? Great, he bled E, but now I have to make a vertical turn and get back inside his turn circle. He used a Barrel Roll Defense or S-break and tried to reverse me? Great, I can spiral up and set up my next move... and I may be in for a good fight!
2) Maintain an Energy Advantage then convert to an Angles advantage (or shot). In your film, if you force the opponent to miss their opening HO attempt, you hold all the cards. He sold out a lot of energy for that first shot, so now his options decrease and yours increase. Now use your Energy advantage to set up shots (lead angles) and if they are not there (the enemy can avoid), then continue to maintain E or gain position until you have the shot. This is the art of ACM and the most fun aspect of virtual flying in my opinion.
3) Take the Kill Shot when it's there. This means you have positioned for a shot that he can't avoid. (He also can't shoot back at you!). This could be on the second merge with a deflection shot or after several merges wearing him down and possibly saddling up for the shot. They key is you are shooting when you expect to hit him, he can't avoid and he can't shoot back. Patience will usually improve your gunnery.
It is my belief that the "shoot on the first pass" mindset is what often leads to the things players complain about most, such as HOs, collisions, long extensions ("running away") due to lost E advantage, etc. Coming into a fight expecting to NOT shoot on the first merge (especially when it is not necessary under the circumstances) can lead to much more interesting fights, fewer HO's and greater survivability.
<S> KP
p.s. I don't think lag played a factor in the outcome of the fight, just the fact that the hit registered a few second later (which is normal). It was just a tough situation to read visually, which is where the anticipation factor and thinking about your options (part of SA) can help.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Max on December 18, 2017, 08:38:48 AM
Good posts Kingpin! Printed out the former and the latter. The Half Cuban 8 diagram was an "A HA!" moment for me. Can you suggest an online source for more BFM diagrams?
<S>
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: DaddyAce on December 18, 2017, 10:22:50 AM
Agreed, thank you KingPin, I enjoyed your analysis! :aok
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: FLS on December 18, 2017, 12:34:04 PM
Max the half Cuban 8 is an aerobatic maneuver. It's just an Immelmann with a descent to regain speed.
Practicing aerobatics is a good way to develop your flying skills even though it's not BFM per se.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 18, 2017, 02:04:35 PM
A teachable moment here: I watched the film (now I KNOW that he is going to loop head on), still I had followed the same path as in the film (attempting to keep my eyes on the target), WHERE is the latest point that I could have avoided the HEAD ON, and WHAT maneuver would you suggest is the most consistently successful (NOT LEAVING my butt vulnerable to the deflection shot)?
Ignore the lag for the moment. Also, please do not read too much into my questions (I don't expect miracles in my ACM overnight). Small things that I can improve on and learn to look for to replace my history of past mistakes :joystick: will go a long way. :airplane: For this I am greatly appreciative. :pray
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: morfiend on December 18, 2017, 02:14:53 PM
I'd suggest you dont fly your gunsight at the enemy,instead fly for position,the shot will come!
So what does that mean? Simply use an offset,vertical or horizontal or both,fly a path that will place you in his rear hemisphere. Preferably above and behind the enemy,once in position you should be able to get position to take a shot.
Hope that helps!!
:salute
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Kingpin on December 19, 2017, 02:54:25 AM
Good posts Kingpin! Printed out the former and the latter. The Half Cuban 8 diagram was an "A HA!" moment for me. Can you suggest an online source for more BFM diagrams?
<S>
Hi Max,
First off, whoops! I meant to say BFM is Basic Fighter Maneuvers not "flight" maneuvers. (That is what happens when you type these things quickly and post before proof-reading!) As FLS said, technically the Half Cuban 8 is the name of an aerobatic maneuver which combines an Immelman and a dive (descent). I tend to treat most aircraft maneuvers as BFM insofar as creating a lexicon for discussing ACM in the context of Aces High. That said, FLS makes an important point, in that you should understand the basic elements of each maneuver, because that is what will help you learn to perform each maneuver correctly before you start adapting and applying them to ACM.
As far as a single list/source of maneuver diagrams, I have yet to find just ONE definitive site that shows every maneuver in what I feal is an easy-to-comprehend format. Some BFM are more complex than others and therefore can be harder to grasp in a single image. So, I would suggest starting with a Google Search for Basic Fighter Maneuvers (BFM) and look over a few lists of maneuvers. Take note of any maneuvers you aren't familiar with and then search those maneuvers specifically. I would recommend reading a description of the maneuver, then looking at a variety of diagrams and possibly YouTube videos of them as well. Whatever helps you best visualize the maneuver until it "clicks" for you is really the key.
If you find any maneuvers you don't fully understand either how to perform or how to apply in combat, feel free to post them here in the Training Forum and we can discuss how to perform them as well as how and when to apply them into your combat maneuvering. And you can always fly with a trainer in the Training Arena to practice and learn how to apply them.
<S> KP
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 19, 2017, 12:04:47 PM
I'd suggest you dont fly your gunsight at the enemy,instead fly for position,the shot will come!
So what does that mean? Simply use an offset,vertical or horizontal or both,fly a path that will place you in his rear hemisphere. Preferably above and behind the enemy,once in position you should be able to get position to take a shot.
Hope that helps!!
:salute
It does help, sincerely thank you. I think that you were the first to point me in that direction some time ago and even went on further to discuss what is meant by flying in a "vertical plane" to the enemy (keeping the target in the vertical plane that extends from above the pilot's head; extends from below the pilot's seat; extends from the nose of the aircraft; and also extends from the tail of the aircraft.
:old: It sounded like Yoda asking to "use the force" but it served me well.
Is there a way that I should be flying this "vertical plane" even when I have inadvertently placed myself nose to nose, and avoid his HO shot and maneuver into that illusive sweet dead six spot?
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 19, 2017, 03:48:07 PM
Sorry, it was too late to edit my last post and realised that it sounded like I wanted an immediate fix all answer. Not the case at all.
Going to let this specific issue go. Flying the same plane and practicing doing lazy 8's, half Cubans, etc. for a while. Then will try and FIND a place in game where it will HELP me feel more confident in my merges and sorties.
:salute
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Kingpin on December 19, 2017, 05:40:57 PM
I think that you were the first to point me in that direction some time ago and even went on further to discuss what is meant by flying in a "vertical plane" to the enemy (keeping the target in the vertical plane that extends from above the pilot's head; extends from below the pilot's seat; extends from the nose of the aircraft; and also extends from the tail of the aircraft.
Hi Chilli,
I'm glad you are not looking for the "quick fix", as all of this will take time and practice. Like The Force, you've just "taken your first step into a larger world." :)
I think what you are referring to in your post above was "flying your lift vector" (see picture below). That is a very important concept to grasp and will greatly improve your ACM. Your lift vector placement determines where you are turning toward, while your speed determines the rate and radius of your turn. When you start thinking in terms of lift-vector-placement and rate vs. radius fights (something called "circle flow") you are well on your way toward becoming an ACM Jedi.
With the image below in mind, think about how you could be offset horizontally (and/or vertically) at a merge (to avoid a HO) and use your lift vector placement to turn into your opponent's rear quarter at the merge, rather than pointing your nose at him...
(http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_054a_9.jpg)
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 20, 2017, 02:05:03 AM
He's got the bug. Oh yes.
Inspired by Kingpin's excellent image I see it's now possible to try to build on an important point I touched on earlier:
...you lost this fight most pointedly because you did not neutralise a perfectly in plane nose-to-nose arrangement...
In plane manoeuvring.
If you look at that jet, and imagine another blue arrow which emerges from the centre of the aircraft and shoots out the left wingtip, and another shooting out the right wingwingtip, then there is your 3-9 line. Now if you stuck a virtual Rotring or Staedtler or Messerschmidt compass (they always seem to be German) in the centre of that jet right down one of those 3-9 lines and drew a blue circle, one that went through both the lift vector and the arrow coming out of the nose, you could draw a blue circle around the aircraft. So if you looked up out the cockpit you'd see a line going fore-aft and right down through your nose and back through your stab: the axis upon which your elevators act. When you pull back or bunt then your nose would travel on the circle. The 3-9 line is the axle for elevator turning.
If you do a competition-winning Immelmann at an airshow, then your blue circle slides on a great big piece of paper hung upright in the sky. A 2-dimensional surface upon which the manoeuvre is performed, a plane.
Plane: 1 a flat surface on which a straight line joining any two points on it would wholly lie.
In the case we've described, all the points of our circle, and the arrow heads of both our lift vector (and the 'thrust' vector) and the centrepoint of the plane are points on this surface.
So with ACM there are at least two aircraft involved. In your fight with Hammerdown the moments before the HO, neither of you used much aileron. Your 3-9 lines were both level with the horizon throughout and because you'd been chasing him as 'gunsight on' as possible you were both in exactly the same plane. Your big pieces of paper were hanging in the sky as one. You were manoeuvring and travelling in exactly the same plane.
Now the consequence of the turn rate and radius is very clear he's only got to pull round enough go match your flightpath and the gunnery solution drops in his lap as a gift! Your response is to deny or complicate his gunnery solution considerably by making it a 3D problem rather than a 2D one. So as you saw him pulling up over the water, even by the halfway point of his move when he's vert you should have anticipated the danger and rolled 45 degrees to one side and pulled up*.
Like Morfiend said here would be an appropriate moment to take your gunsight OFF the opponent and fly for position. Since you've rolled by using your ailerons your plane of manoeuvring has rolled with you and is now NOT ALIGNED with that of your opponent. Even if he adapted and was able to put his guns in your direction it would be a momentarily and difficult shot, an eye-blink at best as you are traveling quickly across his nose. You can easily jink out of those. Now look at the possibilities of relative position and energy, you'd easily get above and he wouldn't have the energy to follow. Now you can choose a better position to put your gunsight back in his general direction and pressure him.
He can't run, he can't hide, he can't pressure you, he can't dictate the fight, he can only sit in his cockpit blubbing for his mama and quickly leafing through the speed index of his copy of ACM for Dummies - Quick Access Version wondering what happened.
So in summary the solution to being in a situation where you are losing a nose-to-nose arrangement is to get out of plane. To cut inside you when you are above corner speed is suggestive that he is slower and further suggests your follwing move: take the fight into the vert. Punish him if he follows you up and punish him if he doesn't.
I learned this by-the-way not from reading manuals or having sessions with Trainers but trying to turn nose-to-nose with those bloody hover-flap Vought Corsairs at the furbal lake about 10,000 times, back in the day when I thought bloodymindedness was the answer :rofl
I know it looks complicated from all the text, but if you plod though it section at a time, making diagrams for yourself or just imagining if you're good at that and doing the fighter pilot's hand thing you might reach an epiphany worthy of a Christmas present. :banana:
Good luck. Keep at it.
*Actually here you might reverse your roll as you cross and pull and really describe a 3D flightpath, but that complicates the basic point.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 20, 2017, 10:24:12 AM
Thanks man, I actually followed that fairly well, which means your explanation was simple enough to get a not so simple plan, and I have at least one alternative to practice upon merge.
* When you say possibly reverse roll at crossing, do you suggest 45 degree reverse roll or something more? More like 180 degree reverse, which would aim my "circle" to the left of his lift vector?
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 20, 2017, 10:25:57 AM
* When you say possibly reverse roll at crossing, do you suggest 45 degree reverse roll or something more? More like 180 degree reverse, which would aim my "circle" to the left of his lift vector?
Yeah. That's rather more technical to explain with text, but reverse your roll and try for a lead turn. <- that might be better shown by a trainer.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Chilli on December 20, 2017, 10:35:39 AM
Doh! :headscratch: "Lead turn"?? All of my turns seem to have lead in them (joking of course). :cry
I don't want to assume that I know the technical meaning or how to execute, so I will be googling this as well, but I like the way that you have explained so far, and here I think that you have a precise direction that you are heading (literally, since we were discussing the film and diagram).
In the above diagram, the right hand side there is the label, "attacker pulls lead". Not exactly what I was assuming, since they are both turning, but close enough to what I imagined.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: FLS on December 20, 2017, 11:00:45 AM
Lead turn is like lead pursuit. It means turn in front of your target. But not so far in front they get your 6.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: wil3ur on December 20, 2017, 11:07:12 AM
You're basically trying to time your maneuver to coincide with your opponents attempt at a front shot (HO). As they try to follow you through the merge, you should already be 40-50% done with your turn as they pass, so you're finishing your maneuver onto their 6 as they're still trying to figure out how they didn't get guns on you.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: JunkyII on December 20, 2017, 06:23:09 PM
I'm a big fan of Kingpin :aok
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 21, 2017, 03:39:45 AM
Doh! :headscratch: "Lead turn"?? All of my turns seem to have lead in them (joking of course). :cry
I don't want to assume that I know the technical meaning or how to execute, so I will be googling this as well, but I like the way that you have explained so far, and here I think that you have a precise direction that you are heading (literally, since we were discussing the film and diagram).
We can explain the lead turn and start this fighter-hands business at the same time. Saves me opening Photoshop today and is also really handy for getting people to think you're a weirdo on trains and in restaurants. So let's suppose two aircraft are duelling and both happen to have decided in advance that the Immelmann is their set move. They pass at the same altitude just very close side to side, like two cars speeding on the road from different directions.
So get lefty and righty hand to represent them and use your thumbs for the 3-9 line (they turn around that axis / axle / imaginary line, when you pull back on the stick).
In the first case they both wait until they see which cigarette each other is smoking and pull back at exactly the same time as their wingtips pass. So get your left and right hand and do that now in front of your face. Given identical aircraft and even back pressure (and an equal merge speed) you can see that your two hands will mirror their circles (no cheating) meeting again in a nose-to-nose arrangement at the top.
Now let's repeat with a variation. Righty hand pulls first before they pass, as he's given up smoking and doesn't want to even see one, let's say with three hand's lengths in between. He pulls as hard as the first merge we did. Lefty still goes flat for a hand-length - reaction time. So at T1 he's able to just see the belly of Righty hand. By T2 there's only a single hand length between them when looking from above and lefty also turns up on his Immelmann. Righty is now at say 45 degrees to lefty's 10. However if you now run though the ACM in a single frame advance - one hand length of movement at a frame, you can see righty hand has screwed the pooch and is in heaps of trouble. He turned too early. His lead turn has worked against him. Too much lead. He's already going up before they pass and as lefty reacts to follow not only can he afford to turn less hard (he's got more space to do it in) - if he wants to - he is also falling automatically behind the 3-9 line of righty on the upstroke. Sort of obvious because he went up first and lefty followed. We could continue to the top of their respective Immelmanns and note that the remerge at the top has some vertical separation lefty would also be inside the turn of righty. In reality this won't happen, Lefty will mount righty from behind like he does his wife in a Rodeo stylee, telling her 'this is how your sister likes it' and seeing how long he can stay on for. Righty gets shot down and smack talked. Standard AH procedure.
Righty, bubbling with rage, his dog whimpering in the corner after a good hiding, decides to HO that bastage Lefty in the next fight. So same setup for the remerge only on the way in lefty remembers righty's wife told him in bed once he'll HO when butthurt and is wary. On the way into the merge lefty - as well as approaching from the side - pushes his stick a bit and gets lower by half a hand length. When there's two hand lengths between them, the setup differs from the first as lefty is to the side (horizontal separation) and below (vertical separation). Righty, fangs out, is re-actively pushing forward and ruddering for that shot. So he’s slightly declined. Lefty is flat and safe from guns. At two hands spacing lefty starts his turn upwards, now he’s lead turning but with good timing and position, so at one-hand’s spacing righty same position reacts - reaction time. When their 3-9 lines pass righty has reacted and he’s level but lefty’s already tipped up 20 degrees - he’s angles rich. He's gained degrees on that fettler and he can either keep those or exchange them for energy later in the fight. What's happened in this case is that lefty’s already going around that circle both in advance of righty and not allowing him the position to drop in on his six. The centreline of that mutual Immelmann is sort of inclined in lefty's favour raltive to this boiled egg thing FLS keeps talking about.
If you follow some permutations through now for the second merge, while you're in Stabucks - three things will happen. You'll start to wonder how this is all effected if you tilt those planes we discussed earlier, say a Chandelle as first move versus an Immelmann, or both Chandelles, mirrored or not. You'll start to think not about single pieces of BFM / ACM but how they stream together seamlessly and relatively like 3D chess. Oh also, you'll probably get arrested for making strange hand gestures in public. I was doing it on the train one day then realised two women had stopped talking to each other and were looking at me wondering with blank expressions as if I was a slightly disturbed mime artist on his day off who needed some help. No thank you says I, I'm only doing 1-on-1s today.
So those examples are a bit contrived but we're not at Top Gun, just a bunch of hobbiest ACM-heads arguably no more weird than crazy golf. Plus there's more smack-talking opportunities. That's not what I do in a merge by the way so don't come here later saying your HO-avoidance merge didn't work. I'm just trying to create a scenario for illustrating / get you and anyone else that's interested thinking and experimenting.
I bloody hope so. Yesterday was my first day in the MA since AH2. The only merges I could get started with an opponent on my high six. Even a +e Ki-84 blew through a possible merge with my Mosquito only to die tragically at the hands of the field gunners at Starbucks. Deadly accurate that waitress. Pleny of coffee no doubt!
Sure hope Arlo is enjoying secretly reading all of this. I planned to only give him cinders this year.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: wil3ur on December 21, 2017, 09:42:45 AM
Great explanation Shida... As always though, it takes a lot of times practicing and figuring out not only what the other guy is setting up for and most likely to do, but when is that optimal time to start the maneuver.
I had someone dump E on the other day as I was setting up a lead turn on the merge and ended up right in front of his guns... so even when you think you have it mastered, there's guys out there that'll still give you a run for the money.
I think next lesson should be the lagroll. Learning this technique helped me not fear having someone on my 6, and in the long run helped me feel more in control of the fight (in the drivers seat) and helps bait more timid fighters in. I had a great one last night I wish I had filmed with a Spit 8 diving on my 6 coming in hard. A slow bank turn to cause him to pull lead for a firing solution and going high yoyo as he passed through and a quick roll at the top. As he went vertical to stay with me, it put his cockpit right in my crosshairs, a tater sealed the deal. :x
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: nrshida on December 22, 2017, 12:36:39 AM
With some ACM there are visual cues, for the rest it's a question of experience. You definetely know when you've done something too late. Too early is equally disasterous but harder to notice.
I think next lesson should be the lagroll. Learning this technique helped me not fear having someone on my 6, and in the long run helped me feel more in control of the fight (in the drivers seat) and helps bait more timid fighters in. I had a great one last night I wish I had filmed with a Spit 8 diving on my 6 coming in hard. A slow bank turn to cause him to pull lead for a firing solution and going high yoyo as he passed through and a quick roll at the top. As he went vertical to stay with me, it put his cockpit right in my crosshairs, a tater sealed the deal. :x
A special requests! That's a really nice example because it incorporates relative energy, rolling planes and lead, lag, pure pursuit... aTIMINGnd. Damn, damn, went too early.
But soon I must break for holidays. Those bloody Trainers had their Christmas party while I was slaving over all that text. Didn't even get an invite. They even had strippers and those little sticks with cheese and pickles on Kingpin told me. What a bunch of scrooges (Kingpin excepted, obviously).
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Max on December 22, 2017, 08:58:13 AM
Judging E...something I have difficulty with when it's less than patently obvious, i.e. an opponent dropping in with a distinct alt advantage.
lag roll...sounds (to me) similar to a rolling scissors. Please explain the difference and provide some illustrations/diagrams of the differences, and when to use which one and why.
Enjoy your holiday sabbatical shida :rock
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: FLS on December 22, 2017, 10:10:42 AM
A lag displacement roll is a barrel roll that results in an exit line parallel to the entry line but moved over to the side.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: wil3ur on December 22, 2017, 10:30:07 AM
lag roll...sounds (to me) similar to a rolling scissors. Please explain the difference and provide some illustrations/diagrams of the differences, and when to use which one and why.
The way it was explained to me is your taking advantage of the time it takes your opponent to react to your maneuver, to force an overshoot and put you in a firing solution when you have less E than your attacker.
Start off with a slow bank turn, preferably with a bit of dive to gain as much E in the maneuver as possible. This also forces the enemy to try and nose down and gain more speed. In order to get a firing solution, they must pull lead, they can't simply nose up a bit and lob shells on you. When they pull for lead, that is your signal to go to the next step in the maneuver which is to go vertical. If done correctly, they should be 800 or less out and gaining on you. In the time it takes them to recognize you're going vertical and if they're continuing to try and press the attack, they will pull up to stay with you. At this point, you should already be at your peak and rolling over to come back down. This ends up with you being basically flat to the ground as the opponent which overshot in the first part of the turn, now comes into view of your guns with a full topdown firing angle.
Depending on relative E and how much he blew trying to stay with you, you can try and reverse your roll and get on his 6 if you miss your first shot, or you can reverse and take off another direction setting them up for the same maneuver again.
I'd say the main difference between it and a rolling scissor would be you're forcing the overshoot in a single well planned turn, rather than jockeying for position in an extended drawn out maneuver. Also, the main roll takes place in the vert as opposed to horizontal.
Now, I'm no real life pilot and some of my terms are probably wrong. It was taught to me by my old squaddie TinmanX (Cheech) back in the day. He was deadly with it in a Zeke.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: FLS on December 22, 2017, 10:55:14 AM
Wilbur you're describing a barrel roll defense. If the overshooting attacker counters the barrel roll defense with a barrel roll then a rolling scissors is likely to develop.
Title: Re: 180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...
Post by: Kingpin on December 22, 2017, 08:31:22 PM
Here's a nice short video of a Barrel Roll Defense, just as Wilbur describes (the author calles it something else, but it's a BRD.
As Wilbur said, you start with a break turn back into the closing bandit to increase angle off tail and to increase the closure rate. Normally you want to do this just before the bandit reaches guns range, as this also acts as a guns defense. If you do the break slightly nose low (as is done in the video), you are maneuvering out of plane to the bandit, which complicates a firing solution and forces the bandit's nose down to track you. This can further increase his closure rate and while it builds energy for your ensuing vertical maneuver (barrel roll over the top).
As you see the bandit's aspect change from his nose pointing at or in front of you to pointing behind you, you know he is no longer pulling lead and is maneuvering outside of your turn circle. You then pull a barrel roll over the top and back into bandit. If the bandit overshoots, depending on what he does next, this may present you with a shot, as is the case in the film.
Be careful to observe the bandit entirely throughout your maneuvering, as some players may recognize the set up for the overshoot, and may be able to cut throttle and pull up into your barrel roll, especially if you time it incorrectly. This can result in them staying on your six, having a nice shot on you at the top (while you present a full plane form to them) or possibly transition into a rolling scissors if the E-states neutralize without either of you gaining a definitive angles advantage.