180 degree turn with NO E burned??? Please explain the physics and how to...

[Chilli]

180 degree turn with NO E burned???  Please explain the physics and how to... please 

This ticks me off every time and eventually log off    After 10 + years you would think that I should have the answer, instead  every time.

This usually occurs with a Spitfire or Ki84, but not limited to those airframes.  I see a guy low near his runway heading towards me (I am tracking another target, so am watching out for his head on attempt, because once I pass him he should be no threat)>>>>>>  WRONG.....   He is able to spring into the air climb and 180 degree turn and gain on my 6 o'clock from long range shot position.    

How, and what kind of physics supports this??  Maybe I will be around for another 10+ years to exploit such a maneuver if available in any of my favorite aircraft (depending on my sight).

[Wiley]

Film?

Wiley.

[nrshida]

Do you mean an Immelmann. Do you know how to read energy states on a merge?

Like Wiley says, an ahf film would provide answers.

[Delirium]

I'll bet good money he was vulching the vulchers by keeping his speed up to catch someone unawares. Like other said, the film would be very helpful otherwise it is difficult to take this complaint seriously.

[Wiley]

Sorry, that was a bit glib.  What Shida's leading toward is kind of my point.  Pretty much every "How did he do that?!" comment I've ever seen pretty much boiled down to the enemy having more E than the guy making the claim thought.

The other main thing people don't realize is, a 30mph or less difference in speed when a guy is 400-600 off your dead six gives him PLENTY of time to line up a shot.

Wiley.

[Max]

An Immelmann would appear (assuming the enemy is at your 12:00) to have your opponent pulling into a climb with a roll at the top and now he's pointed back at you, right?

I was in pursuit of a TA152 in a spate yesterday...about 2k out the icon is now reversed back at me and closing fast. I observed no gain in his alt before he reversed. Is this what you're speaking of Chilli? It leaves me  too.

[Chilli]

Thanks Wiley and Nshida,

I don't film most encounters, and I just read another thread in which the turn rate / turn speeds were discussed and explained fairly well.  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,390709.msg5189711.html#msg5189711

Delirium, do you go to Vegas much (I hope not).

Max I think this sounds close to right, I only question how are they seemingly clinging to their airspeed "E".  The problem is with ME trying to execute the same.

You see, I am trying to learn here and not call out anyone else's game play, only to advance my own. 

Next time I find a furball, I will try to remember and film.

[Wiley]

I'd suggest next time you notice it, film and post.  Anything anybody says at this point is generalizations and virtually meaningless otherwise.

Wiley.

[Delirium]

Delirium, do you go to Vegas much (I hope not).

Nope, I only bet on a sure thing. The sure thing in this case is he handled his E much better than you did or hid his energy state from you. Again, without film it near impossible to discern what occurred, you could claim a 450 knot Me262 out turned our Zeke and the discussion will still not go any further.

[nrshida]

Every plane in this game can out-turn every other if their relative energy states and positions are in certain arrangement. If you see some bat-turn then study the film fastidiously and see why - or ask the question on here.

No manouevre with our low levels of thrust costs no energy but they don't have to - just less than you will hurt. Also some BFM is more recycle-friendly.

[nrshida]

I just read another thread in which the turn rate / turn speeds were discussed and explained fairly well.  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.

Hey that was me! I must have been channeling Guynemer 

I was in pursuit of a TA152 in a spate yesterday...about 2k out the icon is now reversed back at me and closing fast. I observed no gain in his alt before he reversed.

Have you got film Max? Interesting topic.

[100Coogn]

An Immelmann would appear (assuming the enemy is at your 12:00) to have your opponent pulling into a climb with a roll at the top and now he's pointed back at you, right?

I was in pursuit of a TA152 in a spate yesterday...about 2k out the icon is now reversed back at me and closing fast. I observed no gain in his alt before he reversed. Is this what you're speaking of Chilli? It leaves me  too.

Any loss of alt?  Maybe it was a split-s...  Only guessing here.

Coogan

[Chilli]

Nope, I only bet on a sure thing. The sure thing in this case is he handled his E much better than you did or hid his energy state from you. Again, without film it near impossible to discern what occurred, you could claim a 450 knot Me262 out turned our Zeke and the discussion will still not go any further.

Here poses MY QUESTION:  How does any physical object reverse direction and maintain high percentage of it's speed, while an object continuing in a straight line is overcome?  I am certain that a film will not be that hard to obtain as soon as I am able to access the game again with playable connectivity.  So, handling E really doesn't seem to match your sure bet?  We'll see as soon as I can I will post a film of such, and as you have said then we can have a discussion on what OCCURRED. 

[Mongoose]

 You will seriously find out that you can get a lot of information from a recorded flight.   I have learned a lot from watching films and observing the speed altitude and distance that is recorded.

[Chilli]

But always brings into question, at least in my mind, the recorded data is from what is happening on the front end of my machine, and may not exactly correlate to what is happening on the front end of the other online players.  <<< Technical stuff that I know nothing about...... and even less than I do about chandelles and wingovers....