Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Vinkman on January 08, 2018, 03:08:23 PM
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Perhaps I'm not clear on how the flag system works but it seems the town flag goes white when the requisite number of buildings are down. But that does not apply to the guns. So the white flag does not mean the base is capture-able. Is that correct?
I also noticed that the V-base flags don't turn white when the base is capture-able. I assume this is because a pre-determined number of buildings do not need to be destroyed to capture a V-base. the requirement is instead linked to the auto guns (all guns?, which guns). So the flag is tied to building status for capture only. Not the base is capture-able.
Also base flashing is done when a vehicle (Plane or GV) is inside the radar ring. But not troops or pilots that have bailed out. So a GV upps, lets troops out 3 miles out and towers. the troops keep running with no indication that the base in under attack.
It seems an odd series of indicators that aren't consistent. When I brought it up the other day as we were defending a base half of the folks seems to think the system was unclear and confusing, the other half thought the confusion was great for sneaking bases which should be kept the way it is.
I prefer if the flag indicated the base was ready to be captured (Town or V-base), and that bases flashed when down troops were running within the dar circle indicating that ENEMIES were in the area. But I by no means think it needs to be changed, just admitting that I was confused by system and I've been playing a long time.
Thoughts?
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The flag can turn white without any guns being down. I want to say the number of building required to be down is around 80+.
The flag has to be white and alll guns down and 10 troops to capture a base. If half the troops go in and or a gun or flagpops those troops are gone.
In troops that are in the map room are good until a gun or the flag changes.
The flag on a vbasr does not change is correct. Should it? It would be nice but we have worked around that for sometime.
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The flag can turn white without any guns being down. I want to say the number of building required to be down is around 80+.
The flag has to be white and alll guns down and 10 troops to capture a base. If half the troops go in and or a gun or flagpops those troops are gone.
In troops that are in the map room are good until a gun or the flag changes.
The flag on a vbasr does not change is correct. Should it? It would be nice but we have worked around that for sometime.
Most players learn that bases flash and there is GV dar when enemies are present. Why have an exception for running troops?
Most player learn that the white flag means the base is capture-able but think an auto gun will protect them because it will shoot and kill troops. Many don't realize that the white flag doesn't not mean that, and that guns being down is a requirement whether that position can shoot troops or not.
Since they think White flag is when a base can be taken, that thinking holds over to v-base. "Oh we're Blue flag so we're ok" The flag indicator is confusing.
yes any set of arbitrary rules can be learned eventually. But ignorance created by confusing indicators seems like a frustrating way to give the knowledgeable an advantage.
I was defending a V-base and fought of 5 guys trying to take it. I saw on the map that there was no GV dar, or planes in the sector. The guns weren't coming up for another 12 minutes, but eh flag was Blue, no one was in the sector (not blinking) I'm thinking of jumping in a plane to intercept the next batch of bombers coming to drop the VH. VH is up. Map is clear, Flag is blue. I land my 7 tank kills and pull up the clipboard map. Still not flashing If a tank spawns in, I can punch out and up a GV to defend. I have no idea I should sit there defending the map room for another 12 minutes (more if the strats are damaged). How long should a person sit on a base with no attackers in sector? How is that intuitive? or Fun?
I'm by myself.
I'm using what I think is good info to make an informed decision. Before I can even move the next airbase the base is captured out from under me and I'm moved to other base across the map where the AH logic thinks I need to be.
WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
Now many vets love that a base can be sneak captured like this. Because they are in a secret knowledge club. But that not's a real strategy, it's just gameness created by confusing Flag and Flashing indicators.
Now if we tell everyone how to do it, you can no long sneak a base, but every defender will have to sit at empty bases for long periods of time just in case there a load of troops running of from 12 minutes out. Seems like a needless waste of people's time.
:salute
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Most players learn that bases flash and there is GV dar when enemies are present. Why have an exception for running troops?
Technically, it is not an exception. The player (in the vehicle) triggers the alarm, so when the player is gone, the alarm ceases. :old:
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Dropping troops at a distance is a low percentage base take strategy most of the time. The longer the troop runs, the more likely they will be spotted. They got lucky on the base they got from you since just a couple of seconds sooner and you would have seen the troops.
The GV base flag is one of the confusing items new players have to learn.
Maybe they will change it someday.
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Bases with towns need a white flag and the 8 town guns down
The HUGE bases I am not sure how many town guns there are
Vbase just needs the 6 Auto guns down (no white flag)
Ports need the 8 auto guns down (no white flag)
Bases with no towns and maproom by flag on base need 11 auto guns down (no white flag)
right clicking a field icon and selecting 'field down times' will tell you at a glance without having to remember all the dotDT commands.
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I'd like to know how long troops that have made it to the map room live. Is it as Randy said until a town gun pops or the flag turns colorful or is the shorter of what Randy said or 1/2 the un-adjusted downtime of the guns or town buildings; the way it is with objects and ordnance damage.
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You can tell if a town is White Flag by using the dot command .dt fxxflg if it says all living it is not White Flag. If the return data shows a time the Town is white flagged. You can check via the dot command to see what auto guns are down on the Vbase. 0 - 5 - 6 guns. Towns have auto acks B,C,D,E. F, 10,11,12 = 8 guns. 1ijac has some of best maps in the game for all the elements in a base their numbers and locations pm him and I’m sure he can send a set, if not I have the complete set
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How far will troops run? I thought it was only 1 mile. Also is there a max height they can be dropped from a goon, does the chute open right away or do they open at low alt?
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Troops open right after drop and float down. You can drop them from whatever alt you get your goon to.
The flag is linked to the buildings status and not the auto guns. The Vbase has no buildings to kill to take it, so the flag never turns white. You just need to kill the auto guns. Manned guns can be up when you take the vbase , port or airfield.
Vinkman, If you would like me to send you the map pack where I labeled everything on printable maps, PM me your e-mail and I will send them to you. 8thjinx did a great job on the clipboard maps and I think Blauv has some good ones also. Let me know if you are interested. You or anyone else are more than welcome to them.
one-eye
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I was under the impression that troops last as long as V supplies, 10 min I think, or until green flag or gun pops. They drop in chutes, at around 800 ft/min, was last I timed it anyway(in AH2). I believe the 1 mile distance is accurate. Lusche would need to weigh in on that though :aok
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The flag is a holdover from the switch to the then new town in AH2. With the trees and the irregular layout it was close to impossible to see if there was one small building still up so you'd have 6 people frantically driving through and flying over the town looking for standing buildings and missing the capture because they missed one. When we went to a percentage < 100% of town having to be down it became even more necessary because no one had any way of knowing how many buildings were down and whether it was enough for a capture.
It isn't really needed anymore because the town status is indicated when you mouse over the base on the clipboard map, but it is a useful visual indicator that you can see without bringing up the clipboard.
It isn't at all necessary for guns being up to keep the flag colored, because you can just right click the base and look at down times to see whether 8 town guns are down or not - all of the towns have 8 AA guns and they are the only auto-acks that appear below town buildings in the downtime display. And it would be counterproductive to have guns affect the flag and the town status in the mouse over because as long as even one gun was up you wouldn't have any way of knowing whether the necessary number of buildings had been destroyed, short of counting that long list in the down times display.
My understanding is that troops that have entered the map room still count for capture until either a gun pops or enough buildings pop to change the flag, at which point you'll need 10 troops again after destroying the offending ack and/or building. I can't swear this is correct, though. I do know that re-spawning only kills your troops if they are still running, but once they've entered the map room they stay alive regardless of what the player does. The re-spawning killing your troops feature was added back when LVT spawns on land were common and one player could get 80 or 100 troops running at a time by spawning in, dropping troops immediately, towering, and then spawning in and dropping again while the first set of troops kept running..
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To my understanding, Paratroopers are just another kind of special 'ords'. They damage the maproom, and when the maproom gets enough damage, it goes boom and the trigger is captured.
It also has a downtime given in object settings, 30 minutes.
On all other objects, partial damage stays for half base downtime, so if maproom/troops works the same, troops would 'stay alive' for 15 minutes. Which is consistent with my (casual) observations in the MA.
Of course, you could ultimately test that in a custom arena. :old:
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:aok Sounds correct. That was why I decided on 10k as "Highest Drop" elav. They dropped at around 1 min per 1k(more like 800 ft,but rounded up) and still left "Run TIME". That was in custom arena. Came in at 7k, then the pull up and over, troop drop as most do. Took right at 13 min for capture...1 drunk was a bit further out :furious You can also test in Off-Line. For those that dont know how to do custom arenas, same outcome and didnt need to adjust settings for arena. Just go into Arena Set Up and then Objects and destroy Town and guns as your goon is on climb out. :cheers: Can even change base country ownership of base you up from, would suggest making sure that you destroy the closer guns to town as well though :uhoh
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What are you guys going to do when I make about half the airfields on my next terrain have the map room next to the tower? That small airfield configuration is proving to cause some pretty hot fights for a sustained amount of time.
Once Hitech made the bridges viable as a micro combat terrain feature and accepted my use of a map room on the airfield, he opened the door to getting away from having to use the town for every airfield capture design. And who knows what evil 8thJinx will create that Hitech likes enough to introduce as a terrain object available to terrain builders? Under that scenario, what is a what flag.........
Don't worry, I'm still of the opinion that towns and the micro combat around them can be enhanced by the same testing I've been doing with my terrains. Something like this test of a micro terrain design recently. Flag, white flag, seems a pretty irrelevant thing to worry about. That micro terrain test would work just as well if I removed the town and put the capture mechanism directly on the field next to the tower.
(https://s20.postimg.org/ujjqibdgd/medtst177.jpg)
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:rock
What are you guys going to do when I make about half the airfields on my next terrain have the map room next to the tower? That small airfield configuration is proving to cause some pretty hot fights for a sustained amount of time.
Once Hitech made the bridges viable as a micro combat terrain feature and accepted my use of a map room on the airfield, he opened the door to getting away from having to use the town for every airfield capture design. And who knows what evil 8thJinx will create that Hitech likes enough to introduce as a terrain object available to terrain builders? Under that scenario, what is a what flag.........
Don't worry, I'm still of the opinion that towns and the micro combat around them can be enhanced by the same testing I've been doing with my terrains. Something like this test of a micro terrain design recently. Flag, white flag, seems a pretty irrelevant thing to worry about. That micro terrain test would work just as well if I removed the town and put the capture mechanism directly on the field next to the tower.
(https://s20.postimg.org/ujjqibdgd/medtst177.jpg)
:rock OH YEAH! Loved those when you added them :x
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You can see the guns, and you can see if all the guns are down. To capture the base, you must destroy 75% of the town buildings. Unless you count all the buildings, you can't see if you have destroyed enough buildings, thus the white flag. Once you understand what the flag means, and what it doesn't mean, the rest is easy.
There are 114 buildings in town. You have to destroy 86 buildings to get the 75% to turn the flag white.
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:aok Mouse over a base ICON. If clipboard map shows TOWN:Prepped.........WF! Right click Base ICON: Click Down Times: select all categories you want to check- No need to memorize Dot Commands for down times. Status is even on just mouse over of map Icons, IF all of those categories(VH,FH,BH) are down. Its very easy now for even a 2 weeker to get info. Town guns appear AFTER any town buildings down times. Too my experience EVERY TIME. Base and or other guns show up BEFORE Town building down times :cheers:
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Aw hell! what about the guys that want to use the command line to control the joystick?
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Technically, it is not an exception. The player (in the vehicle) triggers the alarm, so when the player is gone, the alarm ceases. :old:
I get that, but where does one learn these things? is that in the game rules posted on the site?
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I get that, but where does one learn these things? is that in the game rules posted on the site?
This is the perpetual question.
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This is the perpetual question.
Answer: http://trainers.hitechcreations.com
From the Aces High home page, click "Game Info"' then "Need Training?"
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From the Aces High home page, click "Game Info"' then "Need Training?"
I don't think that is really the answer people are looking for. A little less obscurity into the details of the game might be a big ask, and maybe some people think that the slow accretion of knowledge is part of the charm, but it isn't easy for a newcomer to look up a lot of stuff.
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I don't think that is really the answer people are looking for. A little less obscurity into the details of the game might be a big ask, and maybe some people think that the slow accretion of knowledge is part of the charm, but it isn't easy for a newcomer to look up a lot of stuff.
There's a couple of problems:
- It's impossible to put a ton of details into a few sentences.
- Most people, newcomers included, don't even read the crucial short texts like system requirements.
Apparently the only way to make people follow some instructions would be the way Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang, The Magical Car, instructed the driver in tough situations: First a red button starts to glow. The glow deepens. A text appears: "Push the button". The text starts to flash. The font becomes larger. Adding an arrow: "This button here! Push!" The flashing gets more annoying. Finally the text says: "Now push the button already, you moron!"
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True, but I wasn't really thinking of instructions so much, I was thinking more along the lines of information that is indexed no matter whether instructions or tables of information, as in: map room, map room location etc. Your quite right that no one wants to read but I do think they want to be able to look up. Actually what I really mean is I want to be able to look up. And by look up I mean look up in one place with out wading through ancient bbs posts and etcetterata. (or encountering the ubiquitous "please update your account to enable third party hosting")
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I get that, but where does one learn these things?
Answering more generally:
Most things you can simply learn by paying attention while simply playing the game.
Especially when something is not happening in a way you have been expecting, many players just go into a rant mode instead of trying to think about what may have actually happened, and why.
Films are a great tool. Searching the forum with google instead of using the build in forum search function, too. Keeping notes. Using a private arena for some testing. Asking questions in the help forum on the BBS (asking questions ingame can give you astonishingly incorrect answers at times :bhead)
Or even asking HT himself :)
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When I set down an airfield without a town and the map room on the field, I can place the map room anywhere I choose. There are no rules governing that action. I chose to standardize the location next to the tower in my terrain Oceania because from experience it would make communicating the location easier for players. I could just have easily located it in a different spot on each airfield for the ensuing drama that would create. Since the airfield types are standardized by HTC, I chose to follow with that convention. It just happens that the flag is next to the tower and the map room I set down is next to the tower. Who-Da-thunk-it.......
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I would love to see a cheat sheet like the old "Quick Reference" sheet that you could print out in AHII. It listed the default key commands for the game.... well most of them.
If one was done up for "game play" I think it might help. Some thing short and easy to use like this.
Air Field Base Capture
Town builds MUST be 80% destroyed giving a White Flag
All guns MUST be destroyed at the town, field only if is a base without a town.
Fighter hangers are destroyed with 2000lbs of ordnance, bombs, rockets, cannon and bullets fire.
Fighter Hangers are down 15 minutes and can not be resupplied. Timing is started when EACH is destroyed NOT when ALL are down.
Bomber hangers are the same as Fighter hangers.
Vehicle Hanger is the same as the Fighter Hanger.
Ordnance can be destroyed to stop players from lifting with ordnance (bombs and rockets) ALL bunkers must be down to shut it down
Ordnance can be resupplied.
Fuel can only be destroyed to 25% allowing player to up, but with very light fuel loads.
Just the basics. Another for Vehicle bases, a short one on strat, another on Ships, all formatted to fit on a single page.
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What are you guys going to do when I make about half the airfields on my next terrain have the map room next to the tower? That small airfield configuration is proving to cause some pretty hot fights for a sustained amount of time.
Once Hitech made the bridges viable as a micro combat terrain feature and accepted my use of a map room on the airfield, he opened the door to getting away from having to use the town for every airfield capture design. And who knows what evil 8thJinx will create that Hitech likes enough to introduce as a terrain object available to terrain builders? Under that scenario, what is a what flag.........
Don't worry, I'm still of the opinion that towns and the micro combat around them can be enhanced by the same testing I've been doing with my terrains. Something like this test of a micro terrain design recently. Flag, white flag, seems a pretty irrelevant thing to worry about. That micro terrain test would work just as well if I removed the town and put the capture mechanism directly on the field next to the tower.
(https://s20.postimg.org/ujjqibdgd/medtst177.jpg)
BUSTR Sir,
I love the level of effort you put into getting us new maps! However, to answer your question "What are you guys going to do when I make about half the airfields on my next terrain have the map room next to the tower?": I'll likely just sit out and wait for a map that has a construct that makes sense to me.
Cheers!
- Rodent57
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What are you guys going to do when I make about half the airfields on my next terrain have the map room next to the tower? That small airfield configuration is proving to cause some pretty hot fights for a sustained amount of time.
Bustr,
First, let me also say that I think it's great that you are creating new maps and helping to keep the game updated and fresh. Keep up the great work!
That said, I have to side with Rodent and encourage you to reconsider an increase in "on field map-room" bases. The idea that those base types create great fights has not at all been my experience. What I have seen is that they are great (read: easy) for attackers, but horrible for defenders, which in no way protracts a fight.
The requirement for capture of those fields is simply dropping the VH and de-acking. This can be done (and has been done) by a single player (with some luck and little resistance). Once de-acked the only thing for the attackers to do is hover over the field and hope for uppers that they can vulch. This is usually the nature of the "fight" at those fields once the VH is down. The only time I have seen a protracted fight at one of these fields was when the ack or VH were kept up (neither of which is easy to do, as those are soft targets). Usually these "fights" are simply a vulch-fest for the attackers or no fight at all, with little resistance able to be made. There is also virtually no requirement or role for bombers or ships when attacking those field types, again limiting the nature of those "fights".
On the other hand, I have seen protracted fights at bases where the towns are some distance away from the field. The distance between the airfield and town (capture point) seems to creates more space for defenders to up, allowing for an air defense even if the attacks arrive unopposed. The ones that allow for a ground defense spawning to town from an adjacent field also seem to help. These layouts are where you tend to see longer protracted fights, in my experience.
I'm concerned that increasing the number of those fields is just a recipe for creating more vulch-fests or unopposed base takes. Again, this is just my opinion based on my experience (so completely anecdotal). But I can say with confidence that a map with a large number of bases with on-field map-rooms and no towns will be one of the least popular maps for me.
My two cents...
<S>
Kingpin
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Bustr,
First, let me also say that I think it's great that you are creating new maps and helping to keep the game updated and fresh. Keep up the great work!
That said, I have to side with Rodent and encourage you to reconsider an increase in "on field map-room" bases. The idea that those base types create great fights has not at all been my experience. What I have seen is that they are great (read: easy) for attackers, but horrible for defenders, which in no way protracts a fight.
The requirement for capture of those fields is simply dropping the VH and de-acking. This can be done (and has been done) by a single player (with some luck and little resistance). Once de-acked the only thing for the attackers to do is hover over the field and hope for uppers that they can vulch. This is usually the nature of the "fight" at those fields once the VH is down. The only time I have seen a protracted fight at one of these fields was when the ack or VH were kept up (neither of which is easy to do, as those are soft targets). Usually these "fights" are simply a vulch-fest for the attackers or no fight at all, with little resistance able to be made. There is also virtually no requirement or role for bombers or ships when attacking those field types, again limiting the nature of those "fights".
On the other hand, I have seen protracted fights at bases where the towns are some distance away from the field. The distance between the airfield and town (capture point) seems to creates more space for defenders to up, allowing for an air defense even if the attacks arrive unopposed. The ones that allow for a ground defense spawning to town from an adjacent field also seem to help. These layouts are where you tend to see longer protracted fights, in my experience.
I'm concerned that increasing the number of those fields is just a recipe for creating more vulch-fests or unopposed base takes. Again, this is just my opinion based on my experience (so completely anecdotal). But I can say with confidence that a map with a large number of bases with on-field map-rooms and no towns will be one of the least popular maps for me.
My two cents...
<S>
Kingpin
While I bow to your experience, as you have been here longer than I have been.....I have experienced the opposite as you. For me, the fights for these bases have been all of my most memorable experiences in this new era of ACESHIGH :rock True, sometimes these bases are NOT very well defended, but WHEN THEY ARE....AWESOME. As far as my experience towards these bases...and the lower number of players...seems that every gun and/or hanger is out of sinc. It really ups the Adrenalin when it is almost over and a gun or hanger pops! Guess that like just about every thing else....The beauty is in the eye of the beholder? I hope you are wrong in you assessment, only time will tell I guess? I do understand your point though! Its hard to get excited about a base defense when the field is capped. Every one has an opinion, mine is positive towards these bases, BUT respect the contrary, I still do! I would even go further than you, as far as distance to town from spawn and or field. The "drive time" could be extended some what, as to mimic the basic time(No climb, get there asap) for defense. Eh...I love you guys and hate to see any of my family have issues!
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Our game is not the game of 10 years ago which most vets color their present perceptions against and do nothing to lead by example as a group with that play style for the current generation. Instead they complain to how the current generation is killing the game with their play style while vulching and picking along side of them.
Until the player base shifts from playing the current game as individuals in a first person shooter type game, or like super mario brothers with bazookas, the map room on the field is designing the game for that attention span of gnat type of play. If no one is there to defend, the feild is gone and the players can get on with the game. If defenders are there, it depends on the defenders and the country's interest as a whole to defend it. Since most air combat today is vulch, pick and run. Then rinse and repeat, the map room on the field sets up that scenario which the current generation of AH players prefer over the style of 10 years ago happily aided by the vets from that time.
I'm not building terrains for the trainers or the vets from 10 years ago, I'm building terrains by observing how my terrains are utilized and what the paying customers want to do with their time.
If you vets want the game to return to the play style of 10 years ago, get your collective act together and lead as a cohesive group showing the current generation how to play this game as more than a twitch and jerk FPS shootem up game. The catch 22 is 10 years ago the game was dominated by cohesive groups playing a self organized simulation to capture land. Today all those vets yell at the new kids to play the game like ten years ago but, don't organize themselves anymore to play like 10 years ago. Everyone wants someone else to do the heavy lifting and organizing that was the hallmark of this game 10 years ago.
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Since most air combat today is vulch, pick and run. Then rinse and repeat, the map room on the field sets up that scenario which the current generation of AH players prefer
You're saying your objective in base/map design is to make it easier to vulch, pick and run???
I fail to see how that improves gameplay or creates "protracted fights". It seems to me that designing bases to make it easier to vulch and pick is spiting the game, not trying to help it.
I seriously hope HTC takes a good hard look at that before approving such a design.
My two cents...
<S>
KP
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I love you guys and hate to see any of my family have issues!
Thanks, 1stpar. First of all, Bustr and I aren't fighting; we simply have different opinions, which is what forum discussion is for. I respect what he does and that he volunteers his time to contribute to the community. We need more like him!
I'm glad to hear you are having fun and your experience with those types of fields has been different. I have simply found that putting the capture point on the field makes the objective (or requirement) closing everything on the field. That to me does nothing to promote combat/fights. Yes, it can create some tension for the attackers but I have to ask myself: do I want a game that is about fighting a timer, or do I want a game that is about fighting other players?
I agree with you that ANY base that is defended (either in the air or on the ground) usually creates a fun protracted fight. So, that should mean that making bases MORE defendable should improve combat, not the other way around. Making it easier to close, vulch and pick defenders does just the opposite, which is my issue with Bustr's suggestion.
No offense to Bustr at all, as I think what he is contributing to the game is incredibly valuable. :aok
Thanks for your feedback as well!
<S>
KP
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When all the veterans sitting on their kesters waiting for someone else to get off their own kester first and run initiatives like field captures the way all of them remember how to from 10 years ago. And they start taking down towns in one pass with several boxes of bombers like they know exactly how from 10 years ago. Then clean up with jabo targeting vehicles and the vehicle hangers supporting the spawns from ten years ago. I will build terrains differently. My newest terrain will have 50\50 in each country town or map room on the field to speed up game play since I have tested it for today's generation of players. Just like I've tested shortening the distance between feilds to get away from the decade old formula to slow down initiatives by setting feilds 1-2 sectors apart.
All of the terrains built to slow down capture initiatives from ten years ago in rotation do exactly that "too well today".
Build a terrain and get it into rotation, then spend 6 moths to a year observing how your terrain is utilized. I've had two to observe over that time. Better yet start out questioning the current terrain configurations and why they were created the way they were ten years ago. Then question the conventional wisdom of how players play the game then versus now. Then build tests into your terrains to question the decade old conventional wisdom while testing for how players play the game today.
You gents are stuck in the past a decade ago when you argue about how players utilize terrains today.
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You gents are stuck in the past a decade ago when you argue about how players utilize terrains today.
Again, please explain how your goal of adding bases that are easier to cap, vulch & pick at is better for AH gameplay.
I have participated in and helped organize base-takes and base-defenses working with a variety of current players and squad-members on all 3 sides, including your own, on all the maps old and new. I am stating how the current terrains are played today based on my own current observations.
Categorizing long-term players as people who "sit on their keisters" (correct spelling) simply because they don't make maps, and using that as reasoning to completely dismiss their observations, seems counter-productive. If your only answer to constructive criticism is to insult long-time players or say "make your own map", then perhaps you shouldn't be posting about your map designs.
Since you brought it up, I agree with the idea of having more bases that are closer together to promote faster action. I simply object to a capture dynamic that makes it easier (even a requirement) to deack a field and "easier to vulch and pick" as you put it.
<S>
KP