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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Winger1 on July 08, 2018, 04:28:31 AM

Title: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Winger1 on July 08, 2018, 04:28:31 AM
Often times AH feels like a big game of rock/paper/scissors based on who has the better airplane and I feel like the overzealous labels is to blame for that. Having big red or green labels that show up almost 3 miles away, giving you all the info you need about the contact has really reduced much of the air v air combat to a contest where you don't have much of a chance unless you are in a select few planes that have the magic combo of 400+ mph and good turning at low energy. My main ride is the A5 or A8 190 but I also like the P51 and P47 or any number of mid-war planes and I consistently, almost always, loose 1v1 engagements against certain types: late war Spit, LA, Yak, Ki-84 etc and I almost always win against certain others. Twice tonight I lost in a 1v1 on equal terms with a Yak-9. Literally nothing I can do in an A5, he can catch me if I run and pull inside any conceivable maneuver I make. I've played for two years and I can fly my usual rides to the edge of the stall horn without loosing control so I know it's not me. Their plane is just better. Period.

In reality much of air combat is about who sees who first and who can sneak up on the other, this often evens the odds against a better airplane. But in AH, everyone knows where everyone is starting 2.5+ miles out. In the two years I've been playing I have only properly "bounced" people 3 times, in every other encounter the other person always knows I'm coming. If you are in certain aircraft you often have no chance and your only option is to not engage at all or get shot down in a 1v1. The only chance you really have is when there are teammates around you as that changes the whole dynamic. Even zoom and boom tactics are extremely difficult because your opponent always knows where you are, exactly when you start your dive and exactly when you're in firing range. Couple this with the near-360 degree view from the cockpit and it's very easy to pull just the right turn at just the right moment to avoid somebody's attack pass. I know this because I exploit it and I almost never get shot down by boom and zooms. It's also almost impossible to escape in many cases because it's so easy to spot you. In RL you had a chance to duck into a cloud or lose your pursuer by flying among trees, but the labels remove that element entirely. I often find myself not engaging anyone unless its  a head-on, it's the same type of plane as me, or there are teammates around; I avoid any other encounter like the plague and it often gets boring. Oh it's a enemy Yak, LA etc might as well not even go there.

How much more exciting would the game play be if you didn't know what kind of plane a contact was, or even whether he was friendly or not until getting within 1000 yards or less? That would make for some interesting encounters and it would make the game about more than just raw plane performance.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Bizman on July 08, 2018, 05:26:24 AM
In real life you can easily see and identify a fighter size plane from a longer distance than 3 miles. Without the icons I couldn't even tell the direction of a dot from that distance on my 30" screen. On a laptop I might not even see the dot. Yet I have no difficulty to identify a passenger plane flying over my house at 35000 feet on a clear day!

In a perfect world we'd have a bunch of wingmen and air policing looking around for enemies and screens that would show us lifelike images in real size. In reality we often fly alone trying to tell a fruit fly or a speck from a dot in the game.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: atlau on July 08, 2018, 05:39:56 AM
You might be able to spot a plane 3+ miles out if looking in the right direction, however AH allows you to scan 360 deg in mere seconds, which you could never do in real life.

Getting a 100% aircraft ID and determining which country markings it has...you'd need to get on closer than 1000 ft.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Shuffler on July 08, 2018, 06:03:29 AM
Often times AH feels like a big game of rock/paper/scissors based on who has the better airplane and I feel like the overzealous labels is to blame for that. Having big red or green labels that show up almost 3 miles away, giving you all the info you need about the contact has really reduced much of the air v air combat to a contest where you don't have much of a chance unless you are in a select few planes that have the magic combo of 400+ mph and good turning at low energy. My main ride is the A5 or A8 190 but I also like the P51 and P47 or any number of mid-war planes and I consistently, almost always, loose 1v1 engagements against certain types: late war Spit, LA, Yak, Ki-84 etc and I almost always win against certain others. Twice tonight I lost in a 1v1 on equal terms with a Yak-9. Literally nothing I can do in an A5, he can catch me if I run and pull inside any conceivable maneuver I make. I've played for two years and I can fly my usual rides to the edge of the stall horn without loosing control so I know it's not me. Their plane is just better. Period.

In reality much of air combat is about who sees who first and who can sneak up on the other, this often evens the odds against a better airplane. But in AH, everyone knows where everyone is starting 2.5+ miles out. In the two years I've been playing I have only properly "bounced" people 3 times, in every other encounter the other person always knows I'm coming. If you are in certain aircraft you often have no chance and your only option is to not engage at all or get shot down in a 1v1. The only chance you really have is when there are teammates around you as that changes the whole dynamic. Even zoom and boom tactics are extremely difficult because your opponent always knows where you are, exactly when you start your dive and exactly when you're in firing range. Couple this with the near-360 degree view from the cockpit and it's very easy to pull just the right turn at just the right moment to avoid somebody's attack pass. I know this because I exploit it and I almost never get shot down by boom and zooms. It's also almost impossible to escape in many cases because it's so easy to spot you. In RL you had a chance to duck into a cloud or lose your pursuer by flying among trees, but the labels remove that element entirely. I often find myself not engaging anyone unless its  a head-on, it's the same type of plane as me, or there are teammates around; I avoid any other encounter like the plague and it often gets boring. Oh it's a enemy Yak, LA etc might as well not even go there.

How much more exciting would the game play be if you didn't know what kind of plane a contact was, or even whether he was friendly or not until getting within 1000 yards or less? That would make for some interesting encounters and it would make the game about more than just raw plane performance.

Wrong..... all you know is the plane type. The plane is just the tool that the PILOT uses to fight with. Just because the tool another pilot uses is worn and long in the tooth does not mean you will not be in the tower scratching your head.

In the AVA they used to run "no icon" nights. Was fun for awhile but extremely hard to deal with if it was on a regular basis. In real life you can ID pretty far out in weather such as ours in-game. The icon is to makeup for the small views and pixels.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: ImADot on July 08, 2018, 06:49:43 AM
To be fair, you only get to see the icon showing the plane type (Spit, 109, Yak, etc.) from a distance. You must get in much closer before you're told that it's a Spit9 or Spit16 or 109E, etc.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: popeye on July 08, 2018, 08:32:51 AM
Icons also compensate for different monitor size and resolution.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: flippz on July 08, 2018, 08:33:36 AM
Winger I like the 1000ft rule for plane Id. It would make more exciting fights and less of a chance for people to run from fights. 
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Oldman731 on July 08, 2018, 08:52:48 AM
In the AVA they used to run "no icon" nights. Was fun for awhile but extremely hard to deal with if it was on a regular basis. In real life you can ID pretty far out in weather such as ours in-game. The icon is to makeup for the small views and pixels.


Don't listen to a bomber pilot.  (Scowls at Shuffler.) 

The AvA ran no-enemy-icons, 24-7, for years.  May still, so far as I know.  It took about four hours of flight time to get used to it, but once you did, it made a colossal difference in how you flew and fought.  Real world tactics, that don't matter much with icons, suddenly made sense. 

It also engendered years of arguing on these boards, always heated, sometimes ugly.  In the end, neither side was convinced that the other side knew what it was talking about. 

I mention this so that you will be prepared for the tirade that you have brought down upon yourself.

- oldman
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 08, 2018, 09:13:05 AM
Warbirds tried this.  It killed the game overnight. 
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: The Fugitive on July 08, 2018, 09:22:59 AM
I think your biggest problem is lack of experience in the game. 2 years, full time, is a relatively short amount of time compared to some of these guys. I ran your numbers and under the winger1 name you have just over 40 hours in game over the last 6 months. Many of the guys playing do that every week. My point is, with that kind of experience most of these guys can fly a brick against anyone and win, the plane type doesn't matter.

Knowing the plane type due to the icon may be hurting your fighting, if the first thing you do when you see YAK and go "awww crap, I cant beat that!". Any plane can beat any plane, it comes down to pilot/player skill more than anything. If your getting frustrated in the MA (welcome to the club!  :D ) you might want to get with a trainer to help you pick up on some of those skills you might be lacking in beating the yaks,spits and la's. One of the guys I fly with likes to fly the pony. When you call out to him that he has a spit behind him he laughs and says "hes no threat, its just a spit."

As others have said, icons compensate for the lack of real world clarity we have with computer monitors. Also, as we are playing a game in a big sandbox you could have any of 100 plane types coming at you so the icon also helps you setup a game plan on HOW your going to fight that player in the seconds you have to get ready.

Keep at it! Avoid going for the HO (it sets you up as an easy kill if you dont win the joust). Use your planes strengths and the enemies weaknesses for every fight. Practice your aim, you may only get one shot, make it count. Fly other planes to learn what they can and can not do that way when you meet up with them you can push them toward those things they cant do well. And most important of all, just have fun! It is a game.   
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Shuffler on July 08, 2018, 10:40:35 AM

Don't listen to a bomber pilot.  (Scowls at Shuffler.) 

- oldman

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

I have been away so long I could not remember clearly. Wait for when I get back. The comedy of my flying after being away so long should be entertaining for all. You might can sell tickets

SHOOT DOWN SHUFFLER
   $1.00 FIVE SHOTS
  LIMITED TIME OFFER

Brought to you by Oldman Interprises Inc.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Winger1 on July 08, 2018, 12:13:30 PM
I really hope that my post didn’t come across as whining because that wasn’t my intent at all, I still have lots of fun with the game and get at least a kill or two almost every night I play.

I’m okay with aircraft labels of some kind it just feels like they need to be racheted down somewhat. Yeah, you can see an aircraft, from far away but a small single seat fighter would be nearly impossible to positively ID as friend or foe until much closer. It makes perfect situational awareness WAY to easy IMO. I just think that making the labels dimmer, only having them come on at about 2k and only showing you range at 1k and closer would make you work harder to have to identify it; still possible just not so simple. I can flip my hat switch around an in 1 second and I’ve scanned the entire 5.5k radius around me for big red labels and a 5.5k radius is more than enough time to avoid danger. 1 second flick, no labels, I’m good. 1 second flick, see a big red label and I instantly know everything about him except sub model. Scanning should be a little harder.

I have won many 1v1’s it’s just against a similar plane or one that’s worse. Most of the lower altitude dogfights are dominated by a few select types. I saw the same thing when I used to play Pacific Fighters online years ago; huge selection of planes and everyone is in a Ki-84 or a Spit 16. I understand that some planes are just going to be inherently better than others and thus more popular as that was very much the case in real life, but then again it wasn’t so easy to have perfect SA all the time.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: icepac on July 08, 2018, 12:47:14 PM
I wish for the icons for variants to be the same.

I want the mossie bomber and fighter to have the same icon.

I want the 110g and 110c to have the same icon.

I want all the yak to say "yak".

I'm cool with how the tempest/tyhpoon icons work since they look very similar at a distance.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Shuffler on July 08, 2018, 12:50:45 PM
I really hope that my post didn’t come across as whining because that wasn’t my intent at all, I still have lots of fun with the game and get at least a kill or two almost every night I play.



I sure did not think it was a whine. We all state our opinion.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Bizman on July 08, 2018, 12:55:51 PM
I wish they'd also put the pilot's name and fighter rank on the label so I could avoid those that are better than me. Oh, wait, no! That would mean that those even less skilled than I would turn around their ponies and tempests and run when seeing my 109-G6 with gondolas, taking away the few kills I otherwise might get.

Discussion is a good way to weigh arguments.  :salute
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Winger1 on July 08, 2018, 12:59:09 PM
The highest scoring ace in history freely acknowledged that the vast majority of his 350+ kills were against people that he completely snuck up on. I feel like that element of WW2 air combat is completely missing from AH with perfect SA being so easy.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Shuffler on July 08, 2018, 01:00:35 PM
I wish they'd also put the pilot's name and fighter rank on the label so I could avoid those that are better than me. Oh, wait, no! That would mean that those even less skilled than I would turn around their ponies and tempests and run when seeing my 109-G6 with gondolas, taking away the few kills I otherwise might get.

Discussion is a good way to weigh arguments.  :salute

I like to add onions, bell peppers, and spices to my argument to make it more palatable. I always offer a frozen margarita from the blender I have in my P38j too.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Winger1 on July 08, 2018, 01:03:00 PM
Quote
I like to add onions, bell peppers, and spices to my argument to make it more palatable. I always offer a frozen margarita from the blender I have in my P38j too.

I like mine animal style.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Ramesis on July 08, 2018, 01:13:33 PM
I like to add onions, bell peppers, and spices to my argument to make it more palatable. I always offer a frozen margarita from the blender I have in my P38j too.

Don't forget Tabasco  :cheers:
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: caldera on July 08, 2018, 02:13:57 PM
The highest scoring ace in history freely acknowledged that the vast majority of his 350+ kills were against people that he completely snuck up on. I feel like that element of WW2 air combat is completely missing from AH with perfect SA being so easy.

Turn off your icons and tell us how good your SA is.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: DmonSlyr on July 08, 2018, 02:16:48 PM
The highest scoring ace in history freely acknowledged that the vast majority of his 350+ kills were against people that he completely snuck up on. I feel like that element of WW2 air combat is completely missing from AH with perfect SA being so easy.

I actually some what agree with you about this topic.

Because of this.


Don't listen to a bomber pilot.  (Scowls at Shuffler.) 

The AvA ran no-enemy-icons, 24-7, for years.  May still, so far as I know.  It took about four hours of flight time to get used to it, but once you did, it made a colossal difference in how you flew and fought.  Real world tactics, that don't matter much with icons, suddenly made sense. 

It also engendered years of arguing on these boards, always heated, sometimes ugly.  In the end, neither side was convinced that the other side knew what it was talking about. 

I mention this so that you will be prepared for the tirade that you have brought down upon yourself.

- oldman

I enjoy the level of difficulty in not having Icons. It's just a shame more people don't fly in the AvA. That being said, the AvA is different than the MA in the since that you know the other side will be in axis or allied plane. I can completely see where you are coming from regarding knowing the type of plane and distance. I too make decisions based on these 2 things. It also makes it easier to get ganged and to dogpile the enemy when you can see them 5K away. In some cases I can tell who is flying in that plane because I can see the icon and determine who it might be. When the icons are 3K in the FSO, it makes ganging a lot more difficult.

If the Icon just said ENMY with no distance. It would probably spark much better fights in the since that you could not judge the plane until it was near you. Therefore, you could not as easily predict the fighting capability of that plane from a far distance.

Secondly, I'd say you probably do need more experience in the game. The key to being successful in any plane is to really understand it, and to understand how players fight against you in that plane. 2 years seems like a long time, but there is so much to learn about each plane. If you fly a 190a5. You've gotta be more patient and keep your alt when mutliple yaks and la7s are around. You've gotta be more aggressive off the gun in your emmilmans to throw them off guard. Don't get too low and slow around multiple enemies. Use your roll rate, throttle and flaps for quicker maneuvers. Understand that you cant outurn some planes, and must keep your alt and E energy against some planes. Take the time to get alt. Take the time to 1v1 players in Match play. Learn how to perfect roping, 190s love roping. If you want to fly a Mid War plane against late war planes. Get alt, be patient, but be quick, study  and perfect defensive counterpunch maneuvers, and really take your ACM seriously.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: FESS67 on July 08, 2018, 03:18:42 PM
I agree with the sentiment of the OP.  I consider myself to be a competent stick however I readily get owned by many 1 v 1.  I am above average at reading the fight and that keeps me out of trouble  :)

When I approach a con, I 100% adjust my approach based on the tag that appears.  The fact it appears at 6k just gives me more time to do that adjustment. 

If there was a big dot but no tag until say 3k and then it simply identified as a plane type not the variant I think that could encourage better fights in that the commitment phase has already developed at that range.  I am sure we would see more true bounces also.

The runners will still run,  the pickers will fly higher and faster because they do not want to be surprised.  The guys that fight will still fight.  So whilst I agree with the sentiment I am not sure what the benefit will be to change the setting.

The other point is about losing to the ‘better’ planes.  Yep, that is one of the issues with us playing with such a diverse plane set.  We get into very mismatched fights and there is not much you can do about it once you are in the fight.  I may be able to beat a certain player in identical planes but with the other player in a ‘better’ plane I can lose every time.

Nature of the beast I am afraid.  2 bits of advice. 


Example.  I like to fly the P51D.  If I get into a fight with a Brew I will be much less aggressive and keep much more E than when against most other opponents. They turn and climb so well that I feel I cannot compete any other way.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: save on July 08, 2018, 05:04:40 PM
Warbirds is still kicking, even if it's a weak kick.

If my memory serves me, only the scenarios had the vertical bar above the plane indicating friendly or enemy aircraft red/green, but  range only showed below 1k distance.

They also had a radar arrow pointing to the nearest enemy aircraft, but no radar bar (we talking long time ago, I left WB 7 years ago)

Maybe later development of WB tried the no icon feature

Best icons imho was/is the ww2online circle.



Warbirds tried this.  It killed the game overnight.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 08, 2018, 05:11:16 PM
Warbirds is still kicking, even if it's a weak kick.


That’s a stretch.   Warbirds is done by any rational metric.  10 players. 

Quote
If my memory serves me, only the scenarios had the vertical bar above the plane indicating friendly or enemy aircraft red/green, but  range only showed below 1k distance.

My recollection was they were similar to in here.  Then Dawger tried his infamous reduced icon range idea to be “more realistic” and buried the game once and for all.

Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: AAIK on July 08, 2018, 05:21:23 PM
I like it when people say its all about the pilot, then you suddenly pitch a d3A vs a set of b29s and the inevitable end. Kinda ruins the whole skill premise.

There is no absolute when it comes to skill, there are alot of relatives and situations that result in victory. Even being a few k over the enemy might mitigate the difference in skill.

The only suggestion you can tell a new pilot is to focus on aiming skill, the moves can be adjusted to adapt for the level of skill later. Once he gets confidence from a few good solid kills he will be willing to play more with the plane.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: The Fugitive on July 08, 2018, 06:38:21 PM
I like it when people say its all about the pilot, then you suddenly pitch a d3A vs a set of b29s and the inevitable end. Kinda ruins the whole skill premise.

There is no absolute when it comes to skill, there are alot of relatives and situations that result in victory. Even being a few k over the enemy might mitigate the difference in skill.

The only suggestion you can tell a new pilot is to focus on aiming skill, the moves can be adjusted to adapt for the level of skill later. Once he gets confidence from a few good solid kills he will be willing to play more with the plane.

So basically your saying that once a player learns some skills and practices those skills the plane doesnt matter as much.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: scott66 on July 08, 2018, 08:34:26 PM
I know this is a bit off topic but I'm really surprised that our active player base isn't at least 10k plus.. Considering everything this game has to offer we can't be the only ones that can afford to pay and play a game that many have admitted can be extremely addictive? Especially considering it is global
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: save on July 09, 2018, 12:54:28 AM
The language barrier is a killer in the global perspective, I know of only a handful Japanese players as an example. To have the money to own a premium computer, internet, etc does not make it easier.

To find the game it's all about marketing.

There is also a competition from other flying sims, DGS, WB, Il2 series etc.

Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: ImADot on July 09, 2018, 06:39:37 AM
I know this is a bit off topic but I'm really surprised that our active player base isn't at least 10k plus.. Considering everything this game has to offer we can't be the only ones that can afford to pay and play a game that many have admitted can be extremely addictive? Especially considering it is global

Most gamers these days wont pay a monthly subscription. Most gamers these days are twitch players who need instant action and simple controls where they don't have to think much past jiggling the stick and mashing down the fire button.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: flippz on July 09, 2018, 06:43:32 AM
Turn off your icons and tell us how good your SA is.
He’s not saying turn them off. Just shorten them and maybe dumb them down a bit. And I agree.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Mister Fork on July 09, 2018, 09:05:51 AM
He’s not saying turn them off. Just shorten them and maybe dumb them down a bit. And I agree.
Yeah, just leave it as a country marker until you're at least 1000 yards out...that won't cause any squeals from the quake hoarders. Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeal.  :rolleyes:

In the AvA we STILL leave the icons off and it's still a hoot. And try flying with a VR headset, man, as Oldman said, real world tactics are king to staying alive.

It's not a bad idea, I'm just not sure the MA would be ready for that kind of change.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: oboe on July 09, 2018, 09:55:13 AM
Boy!   This makes me miss the AvA a lot - but I never see anybody in there.  When are people on?

I remember low-setting icons in some old scenarios and it felt so much more realistic.  I'll always remember a Fw190 kill I got in a '38J - we were on the way home at low level after a scrap and I spotted a single dot lifting from a field of to our right.  I radioed my flight lead about the contact, who had no joy but detached me from the flight to bounce him.  I stayed low the whole time and curved in behind him as he was on climb out from the field.  Due to the low icon settings he didn't see me until it was too late- he tried a tight right turn but I lead him well and stitched him good.  Scratch one 190.   

Low-vis icons added such great tension IMHO.  That extra tension from unknown, unseen bandits is missing from today's scenarios.   
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 09, 2018, 10:13:32 AM
He’s not saying turn them off. Just shorten them and maybe dumb them down a bit. And I agree.

Recipe for disaster.   Just saying.   
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Wiley on July 09, 2018, 11:23:23 AM
Can anybody tell me what in their entire experience in the MA in the last couple years has led you to the conclusion that what the player base wants is "more challenge"?  I sure don't see it.

Wiley.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: asterix on July 09, 2018, 03:29:53 PM
I like the MA icons as they are but it has been many years since I tried full realism in another game, so I am willing to try that again. I can go with full realism as in no icons and no clipboard map icon etc. Realistic navigation and all that. Seems there are a number of people who would like to try less icons so maybe all we need is a date and time in AvA or maybe recycle some old snapshot or something.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Devil 505 on July 09, 2018, 03:31:58 PM
Can anybody tell me what in their entire experience in the MA in the last couple years has led you to the conclusion that what the player base wants is "more challenge"?  I sure don't see it.

Wiley.

Truth.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: 100Coogn on July 09, 2018, 04:04:00 PM
I would like icons that are very far away either be faded, or have reduced text size.
Might add a little extra dimension to the game.

Coogan
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Crash Orange on July 09, 2018, 05:41:56 PM
I can go with full realism as in no icons and no clipboard map icon etc. Realistic navigation and all that.

Full realism in this context would mean hours of flying very often resulting in zero contact with the enemy, and bomb drops whose (in)accuracy can be measured in miles. Is that what anyone wants?
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: pembquist on July 09, 2018, 08:09:35 PM
I think no icons only works if at a minimum the countries do not have the same plane sets. It worked/s in AVA because...well because it is AVA! I personally think the icons distract me and I end up flying against and shooting at the icon but I don't see how it could work and I don't think it would encourage more people to play.

If you haven't flown IL2 on a server with full reality or whatever it is called you should give it a try. I sometimes fly IL2 Dover Blitz on the ATAG server. You can certainly get blasted before you see the enemy in there. It is fun in its own right but I find I get more fun in AH in less time and it is more fun flying in AH. I have no idea what is more realistic, everybody here will tell you AH but I can say the planes in AH have a lot crisper control response and their prop governor's don't melt down because you were distracted. Also lots more planes here.

I think the most important skill for this game is aim. (I don't have it.) If you are flying a weaker plane it is often critical to get a kill or wounding before the better plane can build an advantage.

It is an exasperating game at times but if you watch Limbo rack up kills in a B-25H you get the idea that the plane isn't really a final limitation.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: guncrasher on July 09, 2018, 09:16:46 PM
for those who care I saw a commercial for warbirds on the history chanel sunday.


semp
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 09, 2018, 09:34:43 PM
for those who care I saw a commercial for warbirds on the history chanel sunday.


semp

Wow.  That game has changed--a LOT--since I was there.  I don't even recognize it now.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: FLOOB on July 09, 2018, 09:52:00 PM
Can anybody tell me what in their entire experience in the MA in the last couple years has led you to the conclusion that what the player base wants is "more challenge"?  I sure don't see it.

Wiley.
Giving players what they ask for has surely sank some games.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: JunkyII on July 10, 2018, 12:15:45 PM
In real life you can easily see and identify a fighter size plane from a longer distance than 3 miles. Without the icons I couldn't even tell the direction of a dot from that distance on my 30" screen. On a laptop I might not even see the dot. Yet I have no difficulty to identify a passenger plane flying over my house at 35000 feet on a clear day!

In a perfect world we'd have a bunch of wingmen and air policing looking around for enemies and screens that would show us lifelike images in real size. In reality we often fly alone trying to tell a fruit fly or a speck from a dot in the game.
As someone who sits in an AC room all day talking and watching planes looking through a window....you are wrong. The number of factors you are forgetting is like 20.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Bizman on July 10, 2018, 12:29:15 PM
As someone who sits in an AC room all day talking and watching planes looking through a window....you are wrong. The number of factors you are forgetting is like 20.

I agree there's factors. Not every day is as clear as those in AH.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: bustr on July 10, 2018, 12:38:39 PM
When I was in my teens my father and his friends would tune a channel and plan lunch at Fredrick Md. during regular Saturday club flying. Before that they would give a common location to group up which was code for fly around chasing each other's 6 over a well known farm. If it was partially cloudy, you could miss everyone while looking between cloud gaps and end up with one of them sneaking up on your low 6. If it was a clear day, 5 miles was a good average distance to see them coming. 10 miles, maybe if something large and Military was flying around at 10,000ft. All of our antics was between 7 and 10k. Once you saw something, it was hard not to keep your eyes on it. But, until then, you could miss small planes for many reasons even on a clear day. That is why my only task was to keep scanning for other planes becasue the Maryland airspace was very busy with private aircraft. Lower planes unless they were all white blended in well with the Maryland countryside.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Puma44 on July 10, 2018, 12:48:19 PM
As someone who sits in an AC room all day talking and watching planes looking through a window....you are wrong. The number of factors you are forgetting is like 20.

Good point!  Real world visibility issues are quantum leaps above the AH world.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Oldman731 on July 10, 2018, 03:08:09 PM
Once you saw something, it was hard not to keep your eyes on it. But, until then, you could miss small planes for many reasons even on a clear day.


Yup.  It's one thing to pick out a plane when you know where to look, and quite another when you don't.  I think every pilot has vivid memories of other planes suddenly appearing nearby.  Even when the TCAS is flashing, I often find it's difficult to locate the enemy aircraft.  Was at an AOPA lecture once, where an ATC controller, who was also a pilot, related that her non-flying controller friends were all unpleasantly surprised to see how difficult it is to actually spot other airplanes in the sky.  Johnnie Johnson's book, "Wing Leader," tells of an occasion near the end of the war, when his entire wing failed to spot an FW 190 flying beneath them.

- oldman
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 10, 2018, 03:10:44 PM
Vision and age have a lot to do with it.  In my 20s I was able to spot planes like a hawk.  Now in my 40s--even with TCAS and 20/15 vision--it's not so easy.

Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vulcan on July 10, 2018, 05:09:06 PM
Twice tonight I lost in a 1v1 on equal terms with a Yak-9. Literally nothing I can do in an A5, he can catch me if I run and pull inside any conceivable maneuver I make. I've played for two years and I can fly my usual rides to the edge of the stall horn without loosing control so I know it's not me. Their plane is just better. Period.

The Yak-9U is an incredibly underrated ride in the MA - most go for the Yak-3. I think a lot of people find the guns too "weak" with too little ammo - but I've had 6 kill runs on a single ammo load. I'm a crappy shot, so need to get close and that suits the yak. The A5 can be a very nimble ride, and I've had good hard fights in a 9U vs an A5, I also used to fly the A5 a bit.  In the A5 take the minimal gun package, empty the Mgs, fight with the  aft tank empty, if someone gets on you use the fast roll/instantaneous turn, or weave with a bit of rudder to force an overshoot. Yaks are high powered and are often easy to milk overshoots from.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: JunkyII on July 10, 2018, 08:06:18 PM
Seeing a plane moving perpendicular to you is easier to see then one coming at you

A plane that is a lighter color against the clouds will be hard to see compared to a green plane....but the green plane will blend in with the ground

Visibility isn't the only thing I'm talking about...10 and a million...aka clear skies and unlimited visibility planes are still hard to see even when you know where they are at.

Icons are one thing that doesnt need to change...making the distance shorter might be a viable dicussion like it is in SEA.

Fact is yea a brofessional gamer will win most 1v1s in a spit 16 ect ect...you need to know ACM to give yourself the best possible setup.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Wiley on July 10, 2018, 08:44:45 PM
I wouldn't be opposed if they changed it to something a bit more general like country and 1/2/4 engines at long range, then maybe type at some distance, then model when you get to 800 like it is now.  I would be opposed to shortening them though.  Knowing something is there at 6k is a reasonable compromise IMO.

Wiley.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: icepac on July 10, 2018, 09:03:23 PM
When I was in my teens my father and his friends would tune a channel and plan lunch at Fredrick Md. during regular Saturday club flying. Before that they would give a common location to group up which was code for fly around chasing each other's 6 over a well known farm. If it was partially cloudy, you could miss everyone while looking between cloud gaps and end up with one of them sneaking up on your low 6. If it was a clear day, 5 miles was a good average distance to see them coming. 10 miles, maybe if something large and Military was flying around at 10,000ft. All of our antics was between 7 and 10k. Once you saw something, it was hard not to keep your eyes on it. But, until then, you could miss small planes for many reasons even on a clear day. That is why my only task was to keep scanning for other planes becasue the Maryland airspace was very busy with private aircraft. Lower planes unless they were all white blended in well with the Maryland countryside.

I used to be a flight planner for AOPA at frederick airport.     Interesting place.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Bizman on July 11, 2018, 02:03:06 AM
Vision and age have a lot to do with it.  In my 20s I was able to spot planes like a hawk.  Now in my 40s--even with TCAS and 20/15 vision--it's not so easy.

So you're of the younger generation in this game...

I suppose the Air Forces all around the world still require perfect eye sight for the trainees. During WW2 the FAF pilots ate lots of blueberries to keep their eyes fit; they are rich with lutein which should be healthy for the eyes. Chosen ones, trained ones... Compare them to us having to use glasses to see near due to aging! Despite the icon showing distances up to 6k the image on the screen is still only an arm's length away.

Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 11, 2018, 08:20:49 AM
So you're of the younger generation in this game...

I suppose the Air Forces all around the world still require perfect eye sight for the trainees. During WW2 the FAF pilots ate lots of blueberries to keep their eyes fit; they are rich with lutein which should be healthy for the eyes. Chosen ones, trained ones... Compare them to us having to use glasses to see near due to aging! Despite the icon showing distances up to 6k the image on the screen is still only an arm's length away.

I like the sound of that. 
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Mister Fork on July 11, 2018, 12:25:40 PM
I like the sound of that. 
Very true.

Sometimes in the AvA we turn up the haze a bit.  That makes it like a typical summer day in Europe with higher humidity and with no icons, you really need to be looking - at the monitor closely just 1-2 feet away from your face. With my VR headset, however, nothing misses my eyes as I find I'm able to pick up and track enemy fighters with uncanny accuracy and ability.

So the question is - do we tweak the current icon model or do we lower the distance? Maybe it should be tied in with the environmental model - fog/haze distance sets the icon range as well?

Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Shuffler on July 11, 2018, 12:35:49 PM
Can we all close our eyes and fly by ear?

 :x
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: rvflyer on July 11, 2018, 12:55:01 PM

Just for the fun of it I went back into WB this week to play and see how it compared now to what AH is now. Awful game don't see what I ever enjoyed about it.


Warbirds is still kicking, even if it's a weak kick.

If my memory serves me, only the scenarios had the vertical bar above the plane indicating friendly or enemy aircraft red/green, but  range only showed below 1k distance.

They also had a radar arrow pointing to the nearest enemy aircraft, but no radar bar (we talking long time ago, I left WB 7 years ago)

Maybe later development of WB tried the no icon feature

Best icons imho was/is the ww2online circle.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 11, 2018, 01:34:17 PM
Just for the fun of it I went back into WB this week to play and see how it compared now to what AH is now. Awful game don't see what I ever enjoyed about it.

Yeah.  Weird how perspective shifts.  Still has better rudder modeling though.  No input lag at all.  Miss that. 
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Oldman731 on July 11, 2018, 02:04:24 PM
Can we all close our eyes and fly by ear?


Been doing that for many years now.

Shows in my score, too.

- oldman
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Puma44 on July 11, 2018, 07:53:04 PM
Shows in my score, too.

- oldman

There’s a score?! 
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Oldman731 on July 11, 2018, 08:45:08 PM
There’s a score?!


As the Monty Python people warned, it's people like you what cause unrest.  Score is important to many people. 

Most of them do not fly by ear.

- oldman
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vraciu on July 11, 2018, 08:49:58 PM
There’s a score?!

Win or go home, bruh!!!!   :banana:
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Mister Fork on July 12, 2018, 11:20:29 AM
Most of them do not fly by ear.

- oldman
The best I can do now adays in a dog fight is smack-talk opponents channel 200: "I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.”
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Vinkman on July 12, 2018, 11:50:32 AM
Wrong..... all you know is the plane type. The plane is just the tool that the PILOT uses to fight with. Just because the tool another pilot uses is worn and long in the tooth does not mean you will not be in the tower scratching your head.

In the AVA they used to run "no icon" nights. Was fun for awhile but extremely hard to deal with if it was on a regular basis. In real life you can ID pretty far out in weather such as ours in-game. The icon is to makeup for the small views and pixels.

For a while my ICON only said "Vinkman" I couldn't get a fight because no one would engage me. I was flying around chasing people all over the map.
Title: Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
Post by: Shuffler on July 12, 2018, 05:01:18 PM
There’s a score?!

I think he means music.... doesn't he? :old:


When asked what my IQ is... I tell them how many perks I have.  Near 60,000