Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 20, 2018, 05:48:53 PM
Arlo delivers. :aok
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Arlo on December 20, 2018, 07:52:24 PM
It's still anecdotal. I never suspected Milo would demand the NSA or Russian documents (material none of us have easy access to nor would they likely be online) in order to accuse Captain Williams of being a liar if they weren't provided post haste. I was merely impressed with the story and took it at face value. I think that's not going too far in this community. It's not like we're praising Voss. :)
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: TequilaChaser on December 20, 2018, 08:07:02 PM
Roflmao
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: MiloMorai on December 21, 2018, 02:48:44 AM
Thank you Arlo.
Jordan, Corey C. (2001). "Panthers Prevail". A Frozen Hell... The Air War Over Korea.
"Her pilots downed two Soviet-built MiG-15 jets and damaged a third on 18 November."
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 21, 2018, 01:38:19 PM
You stay classy, San Diego. Meanwhile, go do some research and educate yourself.
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 21, 2018, 02:38:57 PM
"All four MiGs were flown by Soviet Naval Aviation pilots: Russian sources confirmed Williams' claims, 40 years later, stating that the pilots lost were Captains Belyakov and Vandalov, and Lieutenants Pakhomkin and Tarshinov."
Derp. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Oldman731 on December 21, 2018, 02:58:53 PM
"All four MiGs were flown by Soviet Naval Aviation pilots: Russian sources confirmed Williams' claims, 40 years later, stating that the pilots lost were Captains Belyakov and Vandalov, and Lieutenants Pakhomkin and Tarshinov."
Sounds persuasive...but...um...what is the source...?
- oldmanyakov
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 21, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Well, I did that. The quote appears in Wiki, and in any number of web sites that exactly quote the Wiki quote. I'm just missing the Russian sources that confirmed it.
- oldmanovich
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 21, 2018, 06:03:53 PM
Well, I did that. The quote appears in Wiki, and in any number of web sites that exactly quote the Wiki quote. I'm just missing the Russian sources that confirmed it.
- oldmanovich
That's not a quote from Wiki. Just saying.
There are dozens of sources to confirm the claim. The US NAVY credits him with four. Russian sources confirm it. Case closed as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: 2bighorn on December 23, 2018, 01:23:04 AM
Well, I did that. The quote appears in Wiki, and in any number of web sites that exactly quote the Wiki quote. I'm just missing the Russian sources that confirmed it.
- oldmanovich
Hey Oldman!
The Wikipedia source is an article published in Flight Journal, June 2013, written by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver. Subsequently, story was published by few other magazines by different authors (Warren Thompson, etc), but basically it remains the same, all stating that Russians confirmed 4 Mig15 pilots being shot down that day by Panthers. And their sole source for that claim was Capt Royce Williams himself.
Williams probably did a lot of research himself, and probably made a mistake, which was easy to make.
Official Russian sources, when released, were mess. It took a long time before all the relevant data was compiled, sorted and cleaned of inaccuracies by historians.
Anyway, Russian pilots shot down by Williams and Middleton flew out of Zolotaya Dolina airbase, about 60 miles east of Vladivostok, where 781st IAP was based at the time. The pilots killed that day (according to official Russian sources, cross checked by reputable researchers) were Senior Lieutenant Beliakov, Senior Lieutenant Pakhomkin and Senior Lieutenant Vandaev. This correspond with US Navy claims of 2 confirmed and 1 probable.
So where did claim of 4th kill came from (Tarshinov)? As said previously, early Russian sources were riddled with mistakes and according to those, Captain Tarshinov flew Mig 15 and was shot down on November 18, 1952 by US Navy Task Force 77 F9F Panther. Mr. Williams most likely had access to that early data which resulted in conclusion of 4 Migs shot down, and consequent story tweaking is probably result of failing memories and confirmation bias. Which is understandable. Besides, some other researches did the same mistake.
If we cross check Captain Tarshinov against the corrected and reputable Russian sources, he flew in 139th GIAP (not 781st IAP), stationed in China (Not USSR), shot down on 18th November, 1950 (not 1952) by F9F-2 (not F9F-5) from most likely USS Philippine Sea/CV-47 which was in Yellow Sea at the time (not from USS Oriskany/CVA-34).
So, 3 kills it is.
Now, the question remains, did Williams shot down all 3? One falsely credited to Middleton? Well, if you believe LCDR Stanley R. Holm, who was Williams commanding officer, he recollects after action reports of Lt. Royce Williams, Lt. (jg) Dave Rowlands, Lt. Claire Elwood and Lt.(jg) John Middleton a little bit differently.
Edited gun cam? I doubt. NSA confirmed 3kills, one of them only probable (and not 3 + 1 probable).
After all is said and done, few inconsistencies in Williams recollection should not detract from the fact that all 3 of them (Elwood had to return to carrier) fought bravely and deserve big :salute
The Wikipedia source is an article published in Flight Journal, June 2013, written by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver. Subsequently, story was published by few other magazines by different authors (Warren Thompson, etc), but basically it remains the same, all stating that Russians confirmed 4 Mig15 pilots being shot down that day by Panthers. And their sole source for that claim was Capt Royce Williams himself.
Williams probably did a lot of research himself, and probably made a mistake, which was easy to make.
Official Russian sources, when released, were mess. It took a long time before all the relevant data was compiled, sorted and cleaned of inaccuracies by historians.
Anyway, Russian pilots shot down by Williams and Middleton flew out of Zolotaya Dolina airbase, about 60 miles east of Vladivostok, where 781st IAP was based at the time. The pilots killed that day (according to official Russian sources, cross checked by reputable researchers) were Senior Lieutenant Beliakov, Senior Lieutenant Pakhomkin and Senior Lieutenant Vandaev. This correspond with US Navy claims of 2 confirmed and 1 probable.
So where did claim of 4th kill came from (Tarshinov)? As said previously, early Russian sources were riddled with mistakes and according to those, Captain Tarshinov flew Mig 15 and was shot down on November 18, 1952 by US Navy Task Force 77 F9F Panther. Mr. Williams most likely had access to that early data which resulted in conclusion of 4 Migs shot down, and consequent story tweaking is probably result of failing memories and confirmation bias. Which is understandable. Besides, some other researches did the same mistake.
If we cross check Captain Tarshinov against the corrected and reputable Russian sources, he flew in 139th GIAP (not 781st IAP), stationed in China (Not USSR), shot down on 18th November, 1950 (not 1952) by F9F-2 (not F9F-5) from most likely USS Philippine Sea/CV-47 which was in Yellow Sea at the time (not from USS Oriskany/CVA-34).
So, 3 kills it is.
Now, the question remains, did Williams shot down all 3? One falsely credited to Middleton? Well, if you believe LCDR Stanley R. Holm, who was Williams commanding officer, he recollects after action reports of Lt. Royce Williams, Lt. (jg) Dave Rowlands, Lt. Claire Elwood and Lt.(jg) John Middleton a little bit differently.
Edited gun cam? I doubt. NSA confirmed 3kills, one of them only probable (and not 3 + 1 probable).
After all is said and done, few inconsistencies in Williams recollection should not detract from the fact that all 3 of them (Elwood had to return to carrier) fought bravely and deserve big :salute
Thank you sir for not being a bung hole. :cheers:
Could you name a few? To compare notes...
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Oldman731 on December 23, 2018, 08:40:50 AM
The Wikipedia source is an article published in Flight Journal, June 2013, written by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver. Subsequently, story was published by few other magazines by different authors (Warren Thompson, etc), but basically it remains the same, all stating that Russians confirmed 4 Mig15 pilots being shot down that day by Panthers. And their sole source for that claim was Capt Royce Williams himself.
Good work, bighorn! Thank you. The gun cam footage made a big difference, in WWII and ever after.
- oldman
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 23, 2018, 10:34:47 PM
Multiple sources cite four losses. The only questions are the name of the fourth pilot (Tarshinov) and was it due to Williams or another factor. The Navy maintains an official victory list. Gotta be something there.
(Debating three victories vs. four in a 7v1 is beyond laughable.)
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: BuckShot on December 24, 2018, 06:09:34 AM
My sources say 5 kills.
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 24, 2018, 12:10:12 PM
The only questions are the name of the fourth pilot (Tarshinov) and was it due to Williams or another factor.
There's no question that Tarshinov got killed on November 18. It was just two years prior. I couldn't find any other Tarshinov on any list. Official or unofficial.
The Navy maintains an official victory list. Gotta be something there.
US Navy does not maintain "official" list of aerial victories. Never did. Every once in a while The Naval Historical Center compiles "unofficial" list which is based on various records. If ever something major crops out due to docs being "declassified", they make corrections, or not... It's mostly on historians to figure it out. So far, records remain. And if changed, then Rowlands will probably get credited with 1 kill too. (https://www.sierra-host.net/bb/487/69874/declassified.png)
(Debating three victories vs. four in a 7v1 is beyond laughable.)
Why would debating history in search of facts be laughable?
It never was 1 vs 7.
According to our side: It was 2 (Williams & Rowlands) vs 7. Then it was 1 vs 5 briefly, 2 vs 5, 3 (Middleton returns) vs 5, 3 vs 4 (Middleton kills one). At that time it was over (Holm closes in).
Russian side maintains the claim that it was only 4 MIGs and Panthers jumped them. Two MIGs had to leave early due to the damage (Pakhomkin had a fuel leak, ditched in the sea and drowned). Two left behind (Beliakov, Vandaev) were shot down.
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Arlo on December 24, 2018, 09:00:38 PM
This seems to have drifted from recognizing Capt. Williams as a noteworthy person to a contest to who can best prove him to either be an honest individual or a dedicated liar.
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: 2bighorn on December 24, 2018, 11:28:17 PM
...contest to who can best prove him to either be an honest individual or a dedicated liar.
Only you could come to such a conclusion.
Since dawn of air combat, differences between number of victories claimed by pilots and number of confirmed victories were common for various reasons.
Do you really think all the record keepers, military officials, historians, researcher and history enthusiasts were trying to prove pilots to be "dedicated" liars? Do you?
Another thing. If you're convinced that MiloMorai and I are calling Mr. Williams a "dedicated" liar, than grow a pair and call us out directly. Or, if you're sticking with vague hints at who that may be, then show the same moderation with your pompous phrases such as "honest individual" or a dedicated liar".
Merry Christmas
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Vraciu on December 25, 2018, 08:33:27 AM
The Panther lead and his wingman left due to some mechanical issue. That left Williams with a wingman who couldn't fire his guns. That's one against seven. Or six. Or five.
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Arlo on December 25, 2018, 08:50:14 AM
All the record fishing and challenging in the world won't wipe the tears of those who came here to to seek attention for their 'historian/bean counter' ability but didn't receive the accolade they were expecting. Feel free to take it personal. You should. The message was neither hidden nor a mystery. :D
Merry holidays yerownself. ;)
Title: Re: Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs
Post by: Shuffler on December 25, 2018, 08:53:48 AM
Since dawn of air combat, differences between number of victories claimed by pilots and number of confirmed victories were common for various reasons.
Do you really think all the record keepers, military officials, historians, researcher and history enthusiasts were trying to prove pilots to be "dedicated" liars? Do you?
Another thing. If you're convinced that MiloMorai and I are calling Mr. Williams a "dedicated" liar, than grow a pair and call us out directly. Or, if you're sticking with vague hints at who that may be, then show the same moderation with your pompous phrases such as "honest individual" or a dedicated liar".
Merry Christmas
He made a statement just as you did. He did not point it at anyone. You spoke up about his statement... does that mean you feel some guilt?
Either everyone can make statements or no one can.