Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Max on March 12, 2019, 12:31:48 PM

Title: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Max on March 12, 2019, 12:31:48 PM
Boeing 737's have been operational since 1967 and have the safest track record of any commercial aircraft.

Two 737 800 MAX's have crashed since October 2018. Within days of the latest tragedy, numerous countries have grounded The MAX as well as denying airspace to those aircraft from other countries. Seems to me that while a full investigation is warranted as to the cause of failure(s), the recent panic as to the safety of this plane is overblown.

I read where the MAX has onboard software that's designed to prevent a stall. Reportedly, Boeing has not advised airlines "in detail" as to overrides needed to disengage said software. IIRC, an Airbus went down in France a few years ago due to similar software issues.

Thoughts?

OK ACHOO....you're on  :devil
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 12:42:18 PM
You mean AF296? that wasnt a software issue. That was a crew F*up.

Since the similarities with the Lion Air crash are definitely there and the pilots was aware of the issues with MCAS and how to handle them. My personal opinion is that grounding the plane is the right thing to do at this point since there is a possibility that the plane can crash due to MCAS issues and that the pilots aren't able to control the aircraft despite having knowledge about it and additional training to handle it. So the worst case scenario is that the plane have a single point of failure that renders the plane uncontrollable. Im not saying its the case but imo since we DON'T know that it ISNT'T the case the plane should be grounded until we know.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Busher on March 12, 2019, 12:58:11 PM
I would remind all that this airplane has been in service since May 2017. It has been operating safely with many North American airlines since then.
A safety culture has its foundation within an airline and it should flow down from management to all employees, and from the employees upwards to management. Its an attitude that should be fostered and welcomed in all operations.
To believe that "one level of safety" (an ALPA term) exists among all airlines, let alone around the world is categorically naïve.
Lets not crucify the airplane or anyone else until the NTSB completes their job.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 12, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
With no factual evidence in hand yet, judgement calls are premature and irresponsible.  Knee jerk reactions never prove to be productive solutions, especially from politicians and “internet experts”.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 01:30:02 PM
the plane have been grounded in pretty much the entire world except for NA. EASA would not ground them for no reason. And have in mind that FAA stated that  "so far nothing found suggests [the 787] is not safe" 3 days before it was grounded...

And also have in mind that Ethiopian airlines is the largest airline on the African continent and is not considered any less safe than a Western airline. They also have a quite new fleet with both the 787 and A350. There is no reason to assume that they are unsafe/less safe just because its an African airline.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 12, 2019, 01:37:19 PM
Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 01:38:11 PM
Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.

Like the 787 then...
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Oldman731 on March 12, 2019, 02:43:48 PM
Seems to me that while a full investigation is warranted as to the cause of failure(s), the recent panic as to the safety of this plane is overblown.


You're just sensitive because they named it after you.

- oldman
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 03:03:11 PM
Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.
Also can potentially save lives. Double edge sword and I know which side I’d rather be on.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:31:41 PM
the plane have been grounded in pretty much the entire world except for NA. EASA would not ground them for no reason. And have in mind that FAA stated that  "so far nothing found suggests [the 787] is not safe" 3 days before it was grounded...

And also have in mind that Ethiopian airlines is the largest airline on the African continent and is not considered any less safe than a Western airline. They also have a quite new fleet with both the 787 and A350. There is no reason to assume that they are unsafe/less safe just because its an African airline.

If you don't think anti-Boeing politics are involved in the EASA decision then you're naive.   

The bodies aren't even cold yet and people are running rampant with speculation. 

Oh, and I spent two years flying in Africa.  I wouldn't set foot on ANY of their airlines with the possible exception of SAA--and only that one in a pinch.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:33:12 PM
Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.

Bingo.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 03:35:45 PM
If you don't think anti-Boeing politics are involved in the EASA decision then you're naive.   

The bodies aren't even cold yet and people are running rampant with speculation. 

Oh, and I spent two years flying in Africa.  I wouldn't set foot on ANY of their airlines with the possible exception of SAA--and only that one in a pinch.
If you don’t think pro-Boeing politics is going on in the US you’re naive.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Shuffler on March 12, 2019, 03:38:39 PM
If you don’t think pro-Boeing politics is going on in the US you’re naive.

Sure it is. Any company with such a long successful history would be thought of highly.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 03:40:33 PM
Sure it is. Any company with such a long successful history would be thought of highly.

As it should. But they got a problem on their hands and it should be dealt with before anymore lives are lost. Flying that plane at the moment is obviously very risky.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Shuffler on March 12, 2019, 03:41:48 PM
As it should. But they got a problem on their hands and it should be dealt with before anymore lives are lost. Flying that plane at the moment is obviously very risky.

Maybe.... we do not know yet.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:43:55 PM
If you don’t think pro-Boeing politics is going on in the US you’re naive.

Never said it wasn't.   

Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 03:44:21 PM
Maybe.... we do not know yet.
Nothing wrong with being precautionary.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 12, 2019, 03:44:25 PM
Also can potentially save lives. Double edge sword and I know which side I’d rather be on.

Kinda like the knee jerk reaction by the “experts” in congress after the Buffalo accident.  Didn’t address the real problem, just created another one. 

Only a single edge sword based on facts is required, regardless of the typical reaction based on emotional fear based hysteria that prevails most of the time.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:45:04 PM
Maybe.... we do not know yet.

Exactly. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 03:46:41 PM
Ground it. Fix it. Screw political BS fix the problem so everyone can go home to their love ones.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:47:22 PM
Nothing wrong with being precautionary.

There is plenty wrong with kneejerk reactions of DO SOMETHING.  ANYTHING!

Meanwhile the fleet of Max aircraft is racking up thousands of hours without any problems.    Go figure.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 12, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Maybe.... we do not know yet.

Exactly.  No facts present.  So, start making decisions based on emotion instead. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:48:09 PM
Ground it. Fix it. Screw political BS fix the problem so everyone can go home to their love ones.

I agree.  Fire all the pilots! /SARCASM
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 03:50:03 PM
There is plenty wrong with kneejerk reactions of DO SOMETHING.  ANYTHING!

Meanwhile the fleet of Max aircraft is racking up thousands of hours without any problems.    Go figure.

We both hope they stay with no problems! 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 03:53:40 PM
We both hope they stay with no problems!

Of course.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: DaveBB on March 12, 2019, 03:59:27 PM
737 rudder issue killed a lot of people.  They fixed it.  Now they have a software issue.  Fix the problem. Allegedly in the last crash, the flight crew was fighting against the plane's trim system right up to the point that it smashed them into the ground.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:01:45 PM
737 rudder issue killed a lot of people.  They fixed it.  Now they have a software issue.  Fix the problem. Allegedly in the last crash, the flight crew was fighting against the plane's trim system right up to the point that it smashed them into the ground.

Our resident armchair expert has spoken. 

/Thread
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 04:02:29 PM
737 rudder issue killed a lot of people.  They fixed it.  Now they have a software issue.  Fix the problem. Allegedly in the last crash, the flight crew was fighting against the plane's trim system right up to the point that it smashed them into the ground.
Get this logical thinking out of this thread right this instant.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 04:09:25 PM
If you don't think anti-Boeing politics are involved in the EASA decision then you're naive.   

The bodies aren't even cold yet and people are running rampant with speculation. 


So first you, with no evidence at all, says that EASA has an anti-Boeing agenda and then you says "that people are running rampant with speculation"...

ok.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:10:25 PM
So first you, with no evidence at all, says that EASA has an anti-Boeing agenda and then you says "that people are running rampant with speculation"...

ok.

Well, some of us speak from an informed viewpoint while the rest of you don't.   Oh well.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 04:11:09 PM
So first you, with no evidence at all, says that EASA has an anti-Boeing agenda and then you says "that people are running rampant with speculation"...

ok.
I’ve already dissmissed him as either a “company man” who works for these airlines or just plain irrational. Will update soon.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: DmonSlyr on March 12, 2019, 04:11:21 PM
 https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-12/australia-singapore-ground-boeing-737-max-8s-doubts-about-safety-grow

Software issues.

What also concerned me was the type of people onboard.

Recent plane crashes in Kenya not related to Boeing have been concerning. Won't go into detail here.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:11:28 PM
Get this logical thinking out of this thread right this instant.

Logic?

It's conjecture littered with just enough half-truths to fool the gullible, nothing more.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 04:13:58 PM
Logic?

It's conjecture littered with just enough half-truths to fool the gullible, nothing more.
Wait a minute. You have in your location for the forum that you won a single KOTH event. You’ve got to be toejamting me right? You really put that in that? :rofl
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 04:19:09 PM
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-12/australia-singapore-ground-boeing-737-max-8s-doubts-about-safety-grow

Software issues.

What also concerned me was the type of people onboard.

Recent plane crashes in Kenya not related to Boeing have been concerning. Won't go into detail here.

Ive missed you and your theories.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:29:48 PM
Wait a minute. You have in your location for the forum that you won a single KOTH event. You’ve got to be toejamting me right? You really put that in that? :rofl

#Triggered

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 04:35:21 PM
#Triggered

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Nah lol.  Keep thinking it though. I’ll continue to see straight through your awful opinions on this matter though :)
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:39:16 PM
Nah lol.  Keep thinking it though. I’ll continue to see straight through your awful opinions on this matter though :)

Oh dear.  I'm so hurt.  Not. 

You've got a lot to learn about opinions, sport.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Shuffler on March 12, 2019, 04:39:56 PM
Ground it. Fix it. Screw political BS fix the problem so everyone can go home to their love ones.

What problem?
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 04:44:51 PM
As said: The similarities between the accidents are big enough to justify a precautionary grounding. It doesnt mean that people blame Boeing or assuming its their fault. Or even the same fault as the first accident.  It just mean that you want to be 100% sure that there isnt some flaw with the systems that causes it to become uncontrollable.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:48:34 PM
What problem?

It's a lost cause bro.   We should just put all Max jets in the smelter.   They're obviously defective.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 04:49:29 PM
As said: The similarities between the accidents are big enough to justify a precautionary grounding. It doesnt mean that people blame Boeing or assuming its their fault. Or even the same fault as the first accident.  It just mean that you want to be 100% sure that there isnt some flaw with the systems that causes it to become uncontrollable.

The only similarities at this point are that they crashed in the hands of non-US operators.   That's not much to go on from the Peanut Gallery. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 05:04:07 PM
And that is relevant because? Most airlines are non-US...
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 05:07:58 PM
As said: The similarities between the accidents are big enough to justify a precautionary grounding. It doesnt mean that people blame Boeing or assuming its their fault. Or even the same fault as the first accident.  It just mean that you want to be 100% sure that there isnt some flaw with the systems that causes it to become uncontrollable.

This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 05:15:15 PM
And that is relevant because? Most airlines are non-US...

And yet their combined hours are a fraction of US operators. 

Derp. 

"Most" doesn't mean a thing. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 05:16:38 PM
This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.

We would rather the actual issues be addressed rather than publicity-motivated grandstanding and reflexive overreactions.

I'll just leave this right here:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2018/11/28/lion-air-crash-report-raises-questions-about-maintenance-and-pilots-actions/#da7232445c43

When your jet starts doing funky stuff you press the quick disconnect button and hold it, pitch/power/performance to a safe condition, and call for the appropriate abnormal checklist, a concept these Children of the Magenta don't seem to grasp.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 05:20:41 PM
Noone questioning that, The Lion air plane should have been on ground but that doesnt change the fact that 2 brand new planes have crashed under similar circumstances. And Ethiopian, unlike Lion air, have a very good reputation and is a respectable airline.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 05:22:17 PM
Noone questioning that, The Lion air plane should have been on ground but that doesnt change the fact that 2 brand new planes have crashed under similar circumstances. And Ethiopian, unlike Lion air, have a very good reputation and is a respectable airline.

It changes everything.   If accurate, this is a clear failure of maintenance and training.   One crew did it right and squawked the jet.   Maintenance didn't fix it.   The next crew apparently did it wrong and crashed.   So by all means let's blame Boeing!
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 05:34:23 PM
https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27
The MAX have issues for sure, the question is still if there are cases where these issues render the plane uncontrollable.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 05:35:44 PM
https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27
The MAX have issues for sure, the question is still if there are cases where these issues render the plane uncontrollable.

Do you even know what a NASA report is?  Primarily it's a CYA when YOU screw up, not the jet.   And a grand total of...wait for it: two.   I gotta lie down. 

No, they do not "have issues for sure."

Good grief.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Max on March 12, 2019, 05:40:11 PM
It's nice to see ACHOO revv'd up again!!!

Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 05:46:48 PM
I get it now. It all makes sense. puma and Vraciu have stock in Boeing. Sorry for messing up your guys dividends!!
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 05:50:07 PM
I get it now. It all makes sense. puma and Vraciu have stock in Boeing. Sorry for messing up your guys dividends!!

Heck, I just bought stock at a discount.  Gonna make MAD money now. 


I am no apologist for Boeing.   Embraer makes the best airliners on the planet for my money.   But all this hysteria is a ploy.   
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 05:59:38 PM
It’s not a ploy. It’s not a knee jerk. It’s saftey. The main thing airlines stand for. If you really can’t see that I can’t help you
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Busher on March 12, 2019, 06:09:49 PM
I flew in the airline industry for 36 years. If I were a 737 Max8 pilot today, I would not be worried to go to work.
The airplane has displayed excellent service at my former airline and many others in Canada and the USA; and I believe the airplane will be exonerated when the facts are known.
Consider for a moment the repercussions of a worldwide grounding. Some airlines may fail and certainly many people will lose their jobs. When the airplane has had a clean record in North America for 2 years and thousands of flights, please re-think this issue.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 12, 2019, 06:17:55 PM
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 12, 2019, 06:19:32 PM
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.
Yep
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 06:29:40 PM
It’s not a ploy. It’s not a knee jerk. It’s saftey. The main thing airlines stand for. If you really can’t see that I can’t help you

You're going to ground an entire fleet at the cost of $5-10B all because some pilots can't fly--or whatever other reason you care to invent based on zero evidence.  Brilliant plan.  /sarcasm
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 06:30:36 PM
I flew in the airline industry for 36 years. If I were a 737 Max8 pilot today, I would not be worried to go to work.
The airplane has displayed excellent service at my former airline and many others in Canada and the USA; and I believe the airplane will be exonerated when the facts are known.
Consider for a moment the repercussions of a worldwide grounding. Some airlines may fail and certainly many people will lose their jobs. When the airplane has had a clean record in North America for 2 years and thousands of flights, please re-think this issue.

These guys would rather grandstand than think. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 06:33:08 PM
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.

One has decided* based on safety--the FAA.   The jet is still flying.

--
*They'll probably cave to the pressure from Snowflake Nation though.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Busher on March 12, 2019, 06:42:05 PM
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.
I'm sorry Sir but safety is not an absolute.
We takeoff now in freeing precipitation because modern de-ice and anti-ice sprays make it safer.
We fly in the vicinity of thunderstorms because both airborne and ground based radars make it safer.
I could go on and on with examples but you noticed I used the word "safer" not "safe".
Limiting the discussion to aviation, you cannot fly nor can you decide not to fly without considering all the repercussions.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: DmonSlyr on March 12, 2019, 07:24:50 PM
Ive missed you and your theories.

Even Einstein was a theorist!

It's the "we don't want you to dig too deep into our corruption so we will name call and write off your understanding with a simple term, and laugh at how the masses agrees with us who didn't even have to prove the "theorist" wrong with actual facts.".

Theories can be facts, but facts cannot be theories.  ;)
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Toad on March 12, 2019, 07:48:46 PM
Sheesh.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Oldman731 on March 12, 2019, 08:54:16 PM
When your jet starts doing funky stuff you press the quick disconnect button and hold it, pitch/power/performance to a safe condition, and call for the appropriate abnormal checklist, a concept these Children of the Magenta don't seem to grasp.


To a humble GA pilot, the procedure seems more involved than that:

This bulletin directs flight crews to existing procedures to address this condition. In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds. The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC. It is possible for the stabilizer to reach the nose down limit unless the system inputs are counteracted completely by pilot trim inputs and both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT.

Additionally, pilots are reminded that an erroneous AOA can cause some or all of the following indications and effects:

- Continuous or intermittent stick shaker on the affected side only.
- Minimum speed bar (red and black) on the affected side only.
- Increasing nose down control forces.
- Inability to engage autopilot.
- Automatic disengagement of autopilot.
- IAS DISAGREE alert.
- ALT DISAGREE alert.
- AOA DISAGREE alert (if the AOA indicator option is installed)
- FEEL DIFF PRESS light.

In the event an uncommanded nose down stabilizer trim is experienced on the 737 - 8 / - 9, in conjunction with one or more of the above indications or effects, do the Runaway Stabilizer NNC ensuring that the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are set to CUTOUT and stay in the CUTOUT position for the remainder of the flight.


https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/11/indonesia-737-crash-caused-by-safety-feature-change-pilots-werent-told-of/

I'm willing to concede that this would not seem unusual to a veteran 737 pilot.  But I did notice that Boeing has rushed to make a software change:

Boeing Co. BA -6.15% is making an extensive change to the flight-control system in the 737 MAX aircraft involved in October’s Lion Air crash in Indonesia, going beyond what many industry officials familiar with the discussions had anticipated.

The change was in the works before a second plane of the same model crashed in Africa last weekend—and comes as world-wide unease about the 737 MAX’s safety grows."


https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to-make-key-change-in-max-cockpit-software-11552413489

If there were no concern about the software, this might seem to be a waste of time and money.  But hey, maybe it's a publicity stunt!

- oldman
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: saggs on March 12, 2019, 09:20:52 PM
This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.

I'm not gonna get involved in the ground or not-ground argument. (But I know the FAA will not hesitate to do so if/when it finds a valid reason.)

Just wanted to pop in and say as someone who makes a living maintaining and fixing aircraft, that ALL aircraft are "potentially dangerous" from the biggest airliner to the tiniest utlra-light.  Every one of them goes high enough and/or fast enough to kill you.

The good news is the the commercial air travel/cargo industry has done such a great job at mitigating that potential danger, that flying halfway around the world is statistically orders of magnitude safer then driving to the local supermarket.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Busher on March 12, 2019, 09:36:17 PM

To a humble GA pilot, the procedure seems more involved than that:

This bulletin directs flight crews to existing procedures to address this condition. In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds. The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC. It is possible for the stabilizer to reach the nose down limit unless the system inputs are counteracted completely by pilot trim inputs and both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT.

Additionally, pilots are reminded that an erroneous AOA can cause some or all of the following indications and effects:

- Continuous or intermittent stick shaker on the affected side only.
- Minimum speed bar (red and black) on the affected side only.
- Increasing nose down control forces.
- Inability to engage autopilot.
- Automatic disengagement of autopilot.
- IAS DISAGREE alert.
- ALT DISAGREE alert.
- AOA DISAGREE alert (if the AOA indicator option is installed)
- FEEL DIFF PRESS light.

In the event an uncommanded nose down stabilizer trim is experienced on the 737 - 8 / - 9, in conjunction with one or more of the above indications or effects, do the Runaway Stabilizer NNC ensuring that the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are set to CUTOUT and stay in the CUTOUT position for the remainder of the flight.


https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/11/indonesia-737-crash-caused-by-safety-feature-change-pilots-werent-told-of/

I'm willing to concede that this would not seem unusual to a veteran 737 pilot.  But I did notice that Boeing has rushed to make a software change:

Boeing Co. BA -6.15% is making an extensive change to the flight-control system in the 737 MAX aircraft involved in October’s Lion Air crash in Indonesia, going beyond what many industry officials familiar with the discussions had anticipated.

The change was in the works before a second plane of the same model crashed in Africa last weekend—and comes as world-wide unease about the 737 MAX’s safety grows."


https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to-make-key-change-in-max-cockpit-software-11552413489

If there were no concern about the software, this might seem to be a waste of time and money.  But hey, maybe it's a publicity stunt!

- oldman

Actually its not that complicated. Powered Stabs for manual and mach trim have been around for many years. Automatic stab operation for stall protection is fairly new.
BUT, I was trained along with every pilot I flew with that any abnormal behaviour of the pitch trim system was an immediate autopilot disengagement, stab trim switch(es) to CUTOUT, and hand-fly the airplane to the nearest suitable airport.
The NTSB investigation will determine from both the CVR and FDR if the issue was abnormal behaviour in the pitch control systems and if so, it will also determine if proper remedial actions were taken.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 12, 2019, 10:27:08 PM

To a humble GA pilot, the procedure seems more involved than that:

This bulletin directs flight crews to existing procedures to address this condition. In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds. The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC. It is possible for the stabilizer to reach the nose down limit unless the system inputs are counteracted completely by pilot trim inputs and both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT.

<MUNCH>


If there were no concern about the software, this might seem to be a waste of time and money.  But hey, maybe it's a publicity stunt!

- oldman

What Busher said. 

You stop the trim system and then DEACTIVATE it. 

In the Embraer we have a nice red Quick Disconnect button by our thumb that stops ALL TRIM, YAW DAMPER, STALL PROTECTION, AND AUTOPILOT FUNCTIONS.    You then disable the affected system through the cutout buttons for Primary & Backup Trim (Elevator), cutout buttons for Stall Protection (Stick Shaker and Stick Pusher), or System 1 & 2 Shutoff buttons (Aileron or Rudder) before releasing the QD.   

It’s a no-brainer.

https://www.bangaloreaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/VT-AOK_Embraer_Legacy_600_DSC_8376_WM.jpg - Captain’s Quick Disconnect

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2476/3936171704_e97eb29932.jpg - Aileron/Rudder

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2451/3935388923_f4687cf7d4.jpg - Elevator/Stall Protection


On the Boeing it’s not much different frankly. 


That said, everything after the Embraer 145 (and possibly the Embraer 170) has been designed to be too cute by half. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 12, 2019, 11:05:41 PM
Actually its not that complicated. Powered Stabs for manual and mach trim have been around for many years. Automatic stab operation for stall protection is fairly new.
BUT, I was trained along with every pilot I flew with that any abnormal behaviour of the pitch trim system was an immediate autopilot disengagement, stab trim switch(es) to CUTOUT, and hand-fly the airplane to the nearest suitable airport.
The NTSB investigation will determine from both the CVR and FDR if the issue was abnormal behaviour in the pitch control systems and if so, it will also determine if proper remedial actions were taken.

Exactly this vs hysteric knee jerk reactions by the inexperienced and uninformed.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Shuffler on March 12, 2019, 11:39:24 PM
This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.

By the same token the pilots of that airline may be undertrained. Ground them out of over precaution, fix it, then continue on.

Problem still is that we do not know.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 12, 2019, 11:47:59 PM
I get it now. It all makes sense. puma and Vraciu have stock in Boeing. Sorry for messing up your guys dividends!!

Actually, I don’t.  Another WAG (Wild A_ _ Guess).
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Shuffler on March 12, 2019, 11:53:48 PM
Actually, I don’t.  Another WAG (Wild A_ _ Guess).

Looked more like a KJR (Knee Jerk Reaction) but WAG works too.   :aok
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 12:00:13 AM
 :rofl
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: zack1234 on March 13, 2019, 02:33:45 AM
I remember when the Yanks were all over the Rolls Royce engines when they turned into fireworks and when BP polluted the entire American coastline (New Jersey never noticed)

If we were meant to fly planes would still be made in Britain :old:

Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Oldman731 on March 13, 2019, 06:12:29 AM
Actually its not that complicated. Powered Stabs for manual and mach trim have been around for many years. Automatic stab operation for stall protection is fairly new.
BUT, I was trained along with every pilot I flew with that any abnormal behaviour of the pitch trim system was an immediate autopilot disengagement, stab trim switch(es) to CUTOUT, and hand-fly the airplane to the nearest suitable airport.


Good to know, and glad to hear it!

...but...so why the sudden "extensive change to the flight control system"?

- oldman
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 06:14:31 AM

Good to know, and glad to hear it!

...but...so why the sudden "extensive change to the flight control system"?

- oldman

Because non-US operators are incapable of pushing the correct buttons.   Hey, it's no more ridiculous than the other silly assertions by some in here. 


Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: SysError on March 13, 2019, 06:22:07 AM
I remember when the Yanks were all over the Rolls Royce engines when they turned into fireworks and when BP polluted the entire American coastline (New Jersey never noticed)

If we were meant to fly planes would still be made in Britain :old:

Are you, of all people, questioning the privileges of Empire?

Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 10:37:45 AM

Good to know, and glad to hear it!

...but...so why the sudden "extensive change to the flight control system"?

- oldman

Those with professional experience in the 737 may not consider it extensive change”.  Secret from Boeing?  Most definitely.  It may seem sudden because the general public and media don’t care about design features until something goes wrong.  The cause (FACTS) of this recent incident aren’t even known and there’s all this panic about the MCAS.  At this point, there is nothing indicating the MCAS is at fault.

The self proclaimed experts on the 737, don’t have credible experience to make an educated statement on the subject, only an emotional based one.  That rarely turns out be based on anything factual.

Guaranteed that if 737 pilots determined the aircraft was unsafe to fly because of this issue, it wouldn’t be flying.  They don’t need politicians, fear mongers, or keyboard warriors to make that decision for them.

Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: DmonSlyr on March 13, 2019, 10:53:40 AM
It's not just the 737. 767 for Amazon downed a few weeks ago was also Boeing. They are in trouble.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 11:04:35 AM
It's not just the 737. 767 for Amazon downed a few weeks ago was also Boeing. They are in trouble.

 Wut?   :O
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 11:08:50 AM
Those with professional experience in the 737 may not consider it extensive change”.  Secret from Boeing?  Most definitely.  It may seem sudden because the general public and media don’t care about design features until something goes wrong.  The cause (FACTS) of this recent incident aren’t even known and there’s all this panic about the MCAS.  At this point, there is nothing indicating the MCAS is at fault.

The self proclaimed experts on the 737, don’t have credible experience to make an educated statement on the subject, only an emotional based one.  That rarely turns out be based on anything factual.

Guaranteed that if 737 pilots determined the aircraft was unsafe to fly because of this issue, it wouldn’t be flying.  They don’t need politicians, fear mongers, or keyboard warriors to make that decision for them.

I’m with you.  All the American (regardless of operator) pilots I know who fly this airplane say it is safe.   

If they felt it wasn’t, the pilot groups involved would walk away from it. 



Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 11:18:19 AM
It's not just the 737. 767 for Amazon downed a few weeks ago was also Boeing. They are in trouble.

Because of..........? 

Using that logic (or lack of), all cars need to be parked because they kill people every day.  Where’s the panic about that issue?  Oh, and don’t forget about motorcycles.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: SysError on March 13, 2019, 11:18:59 AM
I’m with you.  All the American (regardless of operator) pilots I know who fly this airplane say it is safe.   

If they felt it wasn’t, the pilot groups involved would walk away from it.

AP Story:

Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet

https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27


       “That’s not to say it’s not a problem,” American Airlines pilot Dennis Tajer said of the incidents reported to NASA, “but it is not the MCAS. The autopilot has to be off for MCAS to kick in.”

       A third pilot complained that Boeing had not explained changes to the plane’s automation to pilots.

       “I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know?” the pilot wrote. “The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: DmonSlyr on March 13, 2019, 11:25:21 AM
Because of..........? 

Using that logic (or lack of), all cars need to be parked because they kill people every day.  Where’s the panic about that issue?  Oh, and don’t forget about motorcycles.

Not sure yet. It's been quiet. Was wondering if y'all heard.  Logically speaking planes crash less than cars and are far more fetal to a group of people at one time. Being that it's one major company in a few months is very concerning.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Mister Fork on March 13, 2019, 11:31:48 AM
Canada has just grounded the 737 MAX8 and now has banned it from their airspace. More knee-jerking than a Tennessee late summer barn-dance hoedown.

I remember a while back in the 90's that the 737 used to have issues with their rudder that sometimes caused it to fully deflect. Interesting that it went on for years - PCU secondary slide jamming from cold fluid. FAA ordered all PCU's replaced in 2002 and mandatory training for  unexpected movement of flight controls.  To my knowledge, that's now a standard in all training no?

My point is, three crashes yet none of the 737's were grounded. Yet, in our socially sensitivitivity hyper-excited society, we tend to overreact than to objectively and calmly make better decisions. Grounding ALL MAX8's is an over-reaction.  Sure, any crashing plane is a horrible accident, but putting unneeded stress due to our new stupid-social norms is starting to become irritating.  /RANT OFF
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 11:33:48 AM
AP Story:

Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet

https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27


       “That’s not to say it’s not a problem,” American Airlines pilot Dennis Tajer said of the incidents reported to NASA, “but it is not the MCAS. The autopilot has to be off for MCAS to kick in.”

       A third pilot complained that Boeing had not explained changes to the plane’s automation to pilots.

       “I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know?” the pilot wrote. “The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”


My question being, how many pilots?  This article is typical of today’s media.  They’ve found one Airline Captain who is obviously in a lather and butt hurt about the issue.  So, he fits the media’s agenda. If they’ve talked to one more pilot, they can state “pilots”.  After reading the article, I don’t see where he has refused to fly the Max 8. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 11:41:47 AM
Not sure yet. It's been quiet. Was wondering if y'all heard.  Logically speaking planes crash less than cars and are far more fetal to a group of people at one time. Being that it's one major company in a few months is very concerning.

Those who fly or have flown professionally, know that a rush to judgement in these instances is counter productive without FACTS in hand.  If there is a known, factual deficiency that is immediately identified and confirmed, then and only then will aircraft be grounded.  For the most part, professional pilots will continue to fly with your safety foremost in everything they do, and wait for the facts to be known. 

This obviously doesn’t fit the fake news agenda and burning need to be first with the story, regardless of the facts.

There will always be someone who needs attention and will grandstand for the media, and an extra paycheck.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 11:48:07 AM
AP Story:

Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet

https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27


Already noted and addressed in a prior post.  Nothingburger.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 11:50:31 AM
My question being, how many pilots?  This article is typical of today’s media.  They’ve found one Airline Captain who is obviously in a lather and butt hurt about the issue.  So, he fits the media’s agenda. If they’ve talked to one more pilot, they can state “pilots”.  After reading the article, I don’t see where he has refused to fly the Max 8.

Two total NASA reports out of THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of cycles.   Sounds like a CYA report to avoid a violation.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 12:03:45 PM
Canada has just grounded the 737 MAX8 and now has banned it from their airspace. More knee-jerking than a Tennessee late summer barn-dance hoedown.

I remember a while back in the 90's that the 737 used to have issues with their rudder that sometimes caused it to fully deflect. Interesting that it went on for years - PCU secondary slide jamming from cold fluid. FAA ordered all PCU's replaced in 2002 and mandatory training for  unexpected movement of flight controls.  To my knowledge, that's now a standard in all training no?

My point is, three crashes yet none of the 737's were grounded. Yet, in our socially sensitivitivity hyper-excited society, we tend to overreact than to objectively and calmly make better decisions. Grounding ALL MAX8's is an over-reaction.  Sure, any crashing plane is a horrible accident, but putting unneeded stress due to our new stupid-social norms is starting to become irritating.  /RANT OFF


While the PCU issue was being resolved, 737 operators flew at higher speeds at various flap settings to mitigate crossover issues.  In time, the PCUs where replaced and flap maneuvering speeds were returned to previous values.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 12:05:45 PM
Canada have also grounded the MAX.

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html
Quote
Canada Minister of Transport Marc Garneau just announced that as the result of new data that they received this morning, they will no longer allow Boeing 737 Max 8 or 9 aircraft to take off and land or fly over Canadian airspace.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
Canada have also grounded the MAX.

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html

Mass panic ensues.   Run for your lives!
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 12:12:30 PM
So you are saying that the new data that they received is not enough to justify their decision?
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 12:12:35 PM
CNN.  Far from being a credible news source.  Purely agenda driven.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:12:58 PM
So you are saying that the new data that they received is not enough to justify their decision?

Yep. 

“Mr. Garneau said at a news conference that the step had been taken after a review of newly available satellite tracking data that suggested similarities in the Ethiopian Airlines crash on Sunday to the crash last October of a Lion Air Max 8 in Indonesia.”


Ooooh.  Satellite tracking data.   

Yawn.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Busher on March 13, 2019, 12:20:13 PM
Truly advanced avionics began to appear in the early 1980's and by the middle of the decade airbus shocked the industry with the introduction of an airliner flown by computers where pilots made suggestions to flight and the computers made sure that the pilot's inputs were reasonable. Bit of a judgement on my part but I never flew airbus products and never had any interest in doing so.
My point is based on examining how the pilot's job has changed so quickly and whether the change is for the better. You could also interpret this as the ramblings of an old man.
When I was first trained to fly airliners, hand flying skills were expected and enhanced in training. All airliners had autopilots. Their most advanced skill was flying an auto-coupled instrument approach but they weren't terribly smooth and the expected standard was that the pilot could fly the same approach at least as accurately and hopefully more smoothly.
In the early 80's Flight Management Systems appeared and autoflight systems were magical. We didn't have to look up performance things like max altitudes for weight and temperature... the FMS told us. It magically calculated best points to start down for landing... we didn't even have to do those mental gymnastics anymore. BUT for reasons probably based in tradition, we still had to demonstrate we could manipulate the airplane with skill and precision with no help from the automation.
Those days are gone. My last type endorsement ride was conducted completely with the use of the automation. New First Officers joining the Airline and getting their very first type endorsement would qualify in the same way. Hand flying the airplane on line operations was discouraged by management.
A few years back ALPA and the FAA did some work in the hopes of enhancing Basic Operating Skills and we began to see some hand fly training in the simulator. It likely helped somewhat but most oldfarts like me didn't believe it went far enough.
Fast forward a few years to the most glaring example ever...  Air France 447. What should have been an insignificant event led to hundreds of deaths.
I am not suggesting that these 737 accidents occurred because they happened outside North America. I am also not suggesting that automation is a bad thing in airplanes.. the precision of automation saves millions for the airlines every year. The ultimate protection for an airplane and its contents is a highly trained pair of pilots who can recognize quickly when the automation misbehaves; are able to shut it off and expertly fly the airplane to a safe landing.

But since I started this diatribe, it would seem Canada is also questioning the airplane. They have grounded the 737 MAX.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:27:11 PM
Busher quote: “I am not suggesting that these 737 accidents occurred because they happened outside North America.”

Well, I will, having been there up close and personal.  The vast majority of these guys (95%+) wouldn’t cut it at a US 121 Carrier.    Heck, one of the guys I flew with in Africa came over here after getting hired by United.   He failed his sim and was fired.  Southwest hired him and he failed IOE.   He’s now slinging gear at Mesa.   The only reason I flew with him is because my butt was in the cockpit, too.

I can tell you a hundred stories just like it.  It’s not only the culture, which is a big issue in more ways than one, it’s a serious lack of training.   Board these third world carriers at your peril.  I won’t. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 12:33:24 PM
Government putting NYSE over public saftey. Typical.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 12:36:50 PM
Busher quote: “I am not suggesting that these 737 accidents occurred because they happened outside North America.”

Well, I will, having been there up close and personal.  The vast majority of these guys (95%+) wouldn’t cut it at a US 121 Carrier.    Heck, one of the guys I flew with in Africa came over here after getting hired by United.   He failed his sim and was fired.  Southwest hired him and he failed IOE.   He’s now slinging gear at Mesa.   The only reason I flew with him is because my butt was in the cockpit, too.

I can tell you a hundred stories just like it.  It’s not only the culture, which is a big issue in more ways than one, it’s a serious lack of training.   Board these third world carriers at your peril.  I won’t.

Ethiopian still have a very good reputation in the aviation industry. Your opinion wont change that.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:40:40 PM
Ethiopian still have a very good reputation in the aviation industry. Your opinion wont change that.

Maybe in Africa but not in the real world.  I wouldn’t be caught dead on “E-topia” EVER. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 12:46:50 PM
Since you refuse to base anything on facts and make your judgement based on "they're from Africa" you have told me enough about yourself..
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 12:47:59 PM
Since you refuse to base anything on facts and make your judgement based on "they're from Africa" you have told me enough about yourself..
About as baseless as his claim to sitting in the seat next to all these pilots. You got any pictures of flying a Jumbo jet Vraciu?
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:48:49 PM
Since you refuse to base anything on facts and make your judgement based on "they're from Africa" you have told me enough about yourself..

Yeah.  I flew in Africa for over two years as a Check Airman and Line Training Captain.   I speak from firsthand knowledge.    Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:49:36 PM
About as baseless as his claim to sitting in the seat next to all these pilots. You got any pictures of flying a Jumbo jet Vraciu?

Who in Africa flies a "jumbo jet" there, Sparky?

Arek has one 340 which is about as close as you'll get, and a huge number of their pilots are expats for a reason.   One prime example.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 12:51:29 PM
Who in Africa flies a "jumbo jet" there, Sparky?
You can knit pick my terminology all you want. You still skated my question. Which speaks more on your character as a man, Buster.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
You can knit pick my terminology all you want. You still skated my question. Which speaks more on your character as a man, Buster.

Reading not on your agenda today?

Nice partial quote, Sport.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 12:54:01 PM
Reading not on your agenda today?

Nice partial quote, Sport.
No you just edited as I was typing it lol. Whenever you’d like to post proof of your flying resume I’ll be here to say you are right :).
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:56:06 PM
No you just edited as I was typing it lol. Whenever you’d like to post proof of your flying resume I’ll be here to say you are right :).

You're not that important. 

But we all await yours breathlessly, since you know more than the three former 121 airline pilots and two mechanics in this thread. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 12:57:30 PM
Worth mention is that Arek is a Nigerian mainly domestic airline, Ethiopian is the largest airline in Africa with traffic to a lot of NA and European destinations and part of Star Alliance...
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 12:58:14 PM
Worth mention is that Arek is a Nigerian mainly domestic airline, Ethiopian is the largest airline in Africa with traffic to a lot of NA and European destinations and part of Star Alliance...

Yeah, I know.  Which is why I said they (ETH) have a decent reputation IN AFRICA.

Arek is just a scaled down Ethiopian with more short haul as a percentage of flying.   This increases their risk exposure.   They fly some USA and Europe but it varies. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 12:59:54 PM
I don’t claim to be important. I don’t fly either. I just use common sense thinking just like half of the world.

So you aren’t a pilot. You just claim to be. A man with nothing to hide wouldn’t mind sharing a photo or something. It’s not like we want your SSN. Keep trolling you seem to enjoy it. Although it’s rather bad.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:00:49 PM
I don’t claim to be important. I don’t fly either. I just use common sense thinking just like half of the world.

So you aren’t a pilot. You just claim to be. A man with nothing to hide wouldn’t mind sharing a photo or something. It’s not like we want your SSN. Keep trolling you seem to enjoy it. Although it’s rather bad.

If that helps you sleep better at night knock yourself out.  My detailed exposition on the Legacy 600/650 is proof enough.  I don't owe you anything. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 01:02:17 PM
Yeah, I know.  Which is why I said they have a decent reputation IN AFRICA.

Arek is just a scaled down Ethiopian with more short haul as a percentage of flying.   This increases their risk exposure.   They fly some USA and Europe but it varies. 

And the rest of the world. Like it or not but its still true.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:02:41 PM
And the rest of the world. Like it or not but its still true.


Wrong again!

(This is why I am glad to be an American.  I don't want to be like the rest of the world.)
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 01:03:54 PM
If that helps you sleep better at night knock yourself out.  My detailed exposition on the Legacy 600/650 is proof enough.  I don't owe you anything. 

Love the back peddling.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:05:49 PM
Love the back peddling.

Nobody is backpedaling.   I don't owe you a thing.  Keep trolling.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 01:06:50 PM

Wrong again!

(This is why I am glad to be an American.  I don't want to be like the rest of the world.)

You are aware that for ex United have a code share agreement with Ethiopian, meaning that you can buy a ticket for a United flight that is flown by Ethiopian....
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:08:15 PM
You are aware that for ex United have a code share agreement with Ethiopian, meaning that you can buy a ticket for a United flight that is flown by Ethiopian....

GEE, no, I had no idea!  /sarcasm

I don't fly on codeshare airlines other than Air Chance, BA, and Luftwaffe.   Those are not by choice but by necessity.   
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 01:10:16 PM
Nobody is backpedaling.   I don't owe you a thing.  Keep trolling.
Another phony behind a keyboard.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:12:32 PM
Another phony behind a keyboard.

#Weaksauce

Keep trolling.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 01:13:32 PM
#Weaksauce

Keep trolling.
Lot of men went through a lot of training to call themselves a pilot. And then here’s you
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:14:10 PM
Lot of men went through a lot of training to call themselves a pilot. And then here’s you

That’s all you got?

Go hard or go home.  You’re boring me. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 01:38:32 PM
One has decided* based on safety--the FAA.   The jet is still flying.

--
*They'll probably cave to the pressure from Snowflake Nation though.

Looks like my prediction came true. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/13/donald-trump-says-he-signed-order-ground-boeing-737-max-8/3152157002/
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 01:49:44 PM
Looks like my prediction came true. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/13/donald-trump-says-he-signed-order-ground-boeing-737-max-8/3152157002/

Weird that its the President and not the FAA. In all other countries its the aviation safety authorities that have made the decision. 
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 01:54:15 PM
Looks like my prediction came true. 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/13/donald-trump-says-he-signed-order-ground-boeing-737-max-8/3152157002/

Guess we was right after all. He made the right decision.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 01:58:29 PM
Weird that its the President and not the FAA. In all other countries its the aviation safety authorities that have made the decision. 
Time to shop for another head of the FAA?  Seems like they are bought out.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Zimme83 on March 13, 2019, 02:01:40 PM
Time to shop for another head of the FAA?  Seems like they are bought out.

Its at least astonishing that he just ran over the FAA.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 02:05:55 PM
Its at least astonishing that he just ran over the FAA.

Glad you and I can see that human life is more important than travel and economics.

Fun fact: Boeing donated 1m to trumps inauguration fund. And he just dropped the hammer on them. I love that. He cares about human lives!
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 02:47:38 PM

Guess we was right after all. He made the right decision.

No, you were not right after all. 

He made a political decision because the media here was trying to invent a scandal over some past relationship Trump has with the head of the FAA or some nonsense.  He’s shrewd.

Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 02:48:41 PM
Its at least astonishing that he just ran over the FAA.

He doesn’t care to listen to another manufactured scandal.   
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 02:50:05 PM
Glad you and I can see that human life is more important than travel and economics.

Fun fact: Boeing donated 1m to trumps inauguration fund. And he just dropped the hammer on them. I love that. He cares about human lives!


Just when we thought the trolling couldn’t get any more transparent...
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Vraciu on March 13, 2019, 02:50:57 PM
Time to shop for another head of the FAA?  Seems like they are bought out.

Troll alert. 

Speculation. 

No facts.

Per par. 

Looks like my ignore list just added a new name.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: ACE on March 13, 2019, 02:54:43 PM
Didn’t mean to get under your skin buddy.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 03:04:54 PM
Well, this has certainly gone off the tracks. :huh

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jzY1kWy/476-EA829-C593-45-A6-B9-CD-75-AAF44-CB92-B.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Busher on March 13, 2019, 03:47:13 PM
Well, this has certainly gone off the tracks. :huh

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jzY1kWy/476-EA829-C593-45-A6-B9-CD-75-AAF44-CB92-B.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Agreed Puma. Time for HiTech to please lock this one. Maybe some interesting points when the NTSB has completed their report.
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: Puma44 on March 13, 2019, 03:48:14 PM
Roger that!
Title: Re: Boeing 737 800 MAX
Post by: hitech on March 13, 2019, 03:48:33 PM
Not worth all the clean up from reports.
Locked instead.