Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.
Seems to me that while a full investigation is warranted as to the cause of failure(s), the recent panic as to the safety of this plane is overblown.
Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.Also can potentially save lives. Double edge sword and I know which side I’d rather be on.
the plane have been grounded in pretty much the entire world except for NA. EASA would not ground them for no reason. And have in mind that FAA stated that "so far nothing found suggests [the 787] is not safe" 3 days before it was grounded...
And also have in mind that Ethiopian airlines is the largest airline on the African continent and is not considered any less safe than a Western airline. They also have a quite new fleet with both the 787 and A350. There is no reason to assume that they are unsafe/less safe just because its an African airline.
Grounding before facts are known = knee jerk reaction based on irrational fear.
If you don't think anti-Boeing politics are involved in the EASA decision then you're naive.If you don’t think pro-Boeing politics is going on in the US you’re naive.
The bodies aren't even cold yet and people are running rampant with speculation.
Oh, and I spent two years flying in Africa. I wouldn't set foot on ANY of their airlines with the possible exception of SAA--and only that one in a pinch.
If you don’t think pro-Boeing politics is going on in the US you’re naive.
Sure it is. Any company with such a long successful history would be thought of highly.
As it should. But they got a problem on their hands and it should be dealt with before anymore lives are lost. Flying that plane at the moment is obviously very risky.
If you don’t think pro-Boeing politics is going on in the US you’re naive.
Maybe.... we do not know yet.Nothing wrong with being precautionary.
Also can potentially save lives. Double edge sword and I know which side I’d rather be on.
Maybe.... we do not know yet.
Nothing wrong with being precautionary.
Maybe.... we do not know yet.
Ground it. Fix it. Screw political BS fix the problem so everyone can go home to their love ones.
There is plenty wrong with kneejerk reactions of DO SOMETHING. ANYTHING!
Meanwhile the fleet of Max aircraft is racking up thousands of hours without any problems. Go figure.
We both hope they stay with no problems!
737 rudder issue killed a lot of people. They fixed it. Now they have a software issue. Fix the problem. Allegedly in the last crash, the flight crew was fighting against the plane's trim system right up to the point that it smashed them into the ground.
737 rudder issue killed a lot of people. They fixed it. Now they have a software issue. Fix the problem. Allegedly in the last crash, the flight crew was fighting against the plane's trim system right up to the point that it smashed them into the ground.Get this logical thinking out of this thread right this instant.
If you don't think anti-Boeing politics are involved in the EASA decision then you're naive.
The bodies aren't even cold yet and people are running rampant with speculation.
So first you, with no evidence at all, says that EASA has an anti-Boeing agenda and then you says "that people are running rampant with speculation"...
ok.
So first you, with no evidence at all, says that EASA has an anti-Boeing agenda and then you says "that people are running rampant with speculation"...I’ve already dissmissed him as either a “company man” who works for these airlines or just plain irrational. Will update soon.
ok.
Get this logical thinking out of this thread right this instant.
Logic?Wait a minute. You have in your location for the forum that you won a single KOTH event. You’ve got to be toejamting me right? You really put that in that? :rofl
It's conjecture littered with just enough half-truths to fool the gullible, nothing more.
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-12/australia-singapore-ground-boeing-737-max-8s-doubts-about-safety-grow
Software issues.
What also concerned me was the type of people onboard.
Recent plane crashes in Kenya not related to Boeing have been concerning. Won't go into detail here.
Wait a minute. You have in your location for the forum that you won a single KOTH event. You’ve got to be toejamting me right? You really put that in that? :rofl
#TriggeredNah lol. Keep thinking it though. I’ll continue to see straight through your awful opinions on this matter though :)
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Nah lol. Keep thinking it though. I’ll continue to see straight through your awful opinions on this matter though :)
Ground it. Fix it. Screw political BS fix the problem so everyone can go home to their love ones.
What problem?
As said: The similarities between the accidents are big enough to justify a precautionary grounding. It doesnt mean that people blame Boeing or assuming its their fault. Or even the same fault as the first accident. It just mean that you want to be 100% sure that there isnt some flaw with the systems that causes it to become uncontrollable.
As said: The similarities between the accidents are big enough to justify a precautionary grounding. It doesnt mean that people blame Boeing or assuming its their fault. Or even the same fault as the first accident. It just mean that you want to be 100% sure that there isnt some flaw with the systems that causes it to become uncontrollable.
And that is relevant because? Most airlines are non-US...
This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.
Noone questioning that, The Lion air plane should have been on ground but that doesnt change the fact that 2 brand new planes have crashed under similar circumstances. And Ethiopian, unlike Lion air, have a very good reputation and is a respectable airline.
https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27
The MAX have issues for sure, the question is still if there are cases where these issues render the plane uncontrollable.
I get it now. It all makes sense. puma and Vraciu have stock in Boeing. Sorry for messing up your guys dividends!!
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.Yep
It’s not a ploy. It’s not a knee jerk. It’s saftey. The main thing airlines stand for. If you really can’t see that I can’t help you
I flew in the airline industry for 36 years. If I were a 737 Max8 pilot today, I would not be worried to go to work.
The airplane has displayed excellent service at my former airline and many others in Canada and the USA; and I believe the airplane will be exonerated when the facts are known.
Consider for a moment the repercussions of a worldwide grounding. Some airlines may fail and certainly many people will lose their jobs. When the airplane has had a clean record in North America for 2 years and thousands of flights, please re-think this issue.
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.
Economy and issues like that cannot be considered in such cases. Agencies like FAA and EASA should take these decisions solely based on safety.I'm sorry Sir but safety is not an absolute.
Ive missed you and your theories.
When your jet starts doing funky stuff you press the quick disconnect button and hold it, pitch/power/performance to a safe condition, and call for the appropriate abnormal checklist, a concept these Children of the Magenta don't seem to grasp.
This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.
To a humble GA pilot, the procedure seems more involved than that:
This bulletin directs flight crews to existing procedures to address this condition. In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds. The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC. It is possible for the stabilizer to reach the nose down limit unless the system inputs are counteracted completely by pilot trim inputs and both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT.
Additionally, pilots are reminded that an erroneous AOA can cause some or all of the following indications and effects:
- Continuous or intermittent stick shaker on the affected side only.
- Minimum speed bar (red and black) on the affected side only.
- Increasing nose down control forces.
- Inability to engage autopilot.
- Automatic disengagement of autopilot.
- IAS DISAGREE alert.
- ALT DISAGREE alert.
- AOA DISAGREE alert (if the AOA indicator option is installed)
- FEEL DIFF PRESS light.
In the event an uncommanded nose down stabilizer trim is experienced on the 737 - 8 / - 9, in conjunction with one or more of the above indications or effects, do the Runaway Stabilizer NNC ensuring that the STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are set to CUTOUT and stay in the CUTOUT position for the remainder of the flight.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2018/11/indonesia-737-crash-caused-by-safety-feature-change-pilots-werent-told-of/
I'm willing to concede that this would not seem unusual to a veteran 737 pilot. But I did notice that Boeing has rushed to make a software change:
Boeing Co. BA -6.15% is making an extensive change to the flight-control system in the 737 MAX aircraft involved in October’s Lion Air crash in Indonesia, going beyond what many industry officials familiar with the discussions had anticipated.
The change was in the works before a second plane of the same model crashed in Africa last weekend—and comes as world-wide unease about the 737 MAX’s safety grows."
https://www.wsj.com/articles/boeing-to-make-key-change-in-max-cockpit-software-11552413489
If there were no concern about the software, this might seem to be a waste of time and money. But hey, maybe it's a publicity stunt!
- oldman
To a humble GA pilot, the procedure seems more involved than that:
This bulletin directs flight crews to existing procedures to address this condition. In the event of erroneous AOA data, the pitch trim system can trim the stabilizer nose down in increments lasting up to 10 seconds. The nose down stabilizer trim movement can be stopped and reversed with the use of the electric stabilizer trim switches but may restart 5 seconds after the electric stabilizer trim switches are released. Repetitive cycles of uncommanded nose down stabilizer continue to occur unless the stabilizer trim system is deactivated through use of both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches in accordance with the existing procedures in the Runaway Stabilizer NNC. It is possible for the stabilizer to reach the nose down limit unless the system inputs are counteracted completely by pilot trim inputs and both STAB TRIM CUTOUT switches are moved to CUTOUT.
<MUNCH>
If there were no concern about the software, this might seem to be a waste of time and money. But hey, maybe it's a publicity stunt!
- oldman
Actually its not that complicated. Powered Stabs for manual and mach trim have been around for many years. Automatic stab operation for stall protection is fairly new.
BUT, I was trained along with every pilot I flew with that any abnormal behaviour of the pitch trim system was an immediate autopilot disengagement, stab trim switch(es) to CUTOUT, and hand-fly the airplane to the nearest suitable airport.
The NTSB investigation will determine from both the CVR and FDR if the issue was abnormal behaviour in the pitch control systems and if so, it will also determine if proper remedial actions were taken.
This 100%. It baffles me you guys in here just want a potentially dangerous aircraft flying around. I don’t care about anything but the lives of people. Ground the jet. Fix it move on no more lives lost.
I get it now. It all makes sense. puma and Vraciu have stock in Boeing. Sorry for messing up your guys dividends!!
Actually, I don’t. Another WAG (Wild A_ _ Guess).
Actually its not that complicated. Powered Stabs for manual and mach trim have been around for many years. Automatic stab operation for stall protection is fairly new.
BUT, I was trained along with every pilot I flew with that any abnormal behaviour of the pitch trim system was an immediate autopilot disengagement, stab trim switch(es) to CUTOUT, and hand-fly the airplane to the nearest suitable airport.
Good to know, and glad to hear it!
...but...so why the sudden "extensive change to the flight control system"?
- oldman
I remember when the Yanks were all over the Rolls Royce engines when they turned into fireworks and when BP polluted the entire American coastline (New Jersey never noticed)
If we were meant to fly planes would still be made in Britain :old:
Good to know, and glad to hear it!
...but...so why the sudden "extensive change to the flight control system"?
- oldman
It's not just the 737. 767 for Amazon downed a few weeks ago was also Boeing. They are in trouble.
Those with professional experience in the 737 may not consider it extensive change”. Secret from Boeing? Most definitely. It may seem sudden because the general public and media don’t care about design features until something goes wrong. The cause (FACTS) of this recent incident aren’t even known and there’s all this panic about the MCAS. At this point, there is nothing indicating the MCAS is at fault.
The self proclaimed experts on the 737, don’t have credible experience to make an educated statement on the subject, only an emotional based one. That rarely turns out be based on anything factual.
Guaranteed that if 737 pilots determined the aircraft was unsafe to fly because of this issue, it wouldn’t be flying. They don’t need politicians, fear mongers, or keyboard warriors to make that decision for them.
It's not just the 737. 767 for Amazon downed a few weeks ago was also Boeing. They are in trouble.
I’m with you. All the American (regardless of operator) pilots I know who fly this airplane say it is safe.
If they felt it wasn’t, the pilot groups involved would walk away from it.
Because of..........?
Using that logic (or lack of), all cars need to be parked because they kill people every day. Where’s the panic about that issue? Oh, and don’t forget about motorcycles.
AP Story:
Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet
https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27
“That’s not to say it’s not a problem,” American Airlines pilot Dennis Tajer said of the incidents reported to NASA, “but it is not the MCAS. The autopilot has to be off for MCAS to kick in.”
A third pilot complained that Boeing had not explained changes to the plane’s automation to pilots.
“I am left to wonder: what else don’t I know?” the pilot wrote. “The Flight Manual is inadequate and almost criminally insufficient.”
Not sure yet. It's been quiet. Was wondering if y'all heard. Logically speaking planes crash less than cars and are far more fetal to a group of people at one time. Being that it's one major company in a few months is very concerning.
AP Story:
Pilots have reported issues in US with new Boeing jet
https://www.apnews.com/0cd5389261f34b01a7cbdb1a12421e27
My question being, how many pilots? This article is typical of today’s media. They’ve found one Airline Captain who is obviously in a lather and butt hurt about the issue. So, he fits the media’s agenda. If they’ve talked to one more pilot, they can state “pilots”. After reading the article, I don’t see where he has refused to fly the Max 8.
Canada has just grounded the 737 MAX8 and now has banned it from their airspace. More knee-jerking than a Tennessee late summer barn-dance hoedown.
I remember a while back in the 90's that the 737 used to have issues with their rudder that sometimes caused it to fully deflect. Interesting that it went on for years - PCU secondary slide jamming from cold fluid. FAA ordered all PCU's replaced in 2002 and mandatory training for unexpected movement of flight controls. To my knowledge, that's now a standard in all training no?
My point is, three crashes yet none of the 737's were grounded. Yet, in our socially sensitivitivity hyper-excited society, we tend to overreact than to objectively and calmly make better decisions. Grounding ALL MAX8's is an over-reaction. Sure, any crashing plane is a horrible accident, but putting unneeded stress due to our new stupid-social norms is starting to become irritating. /RANT OFF
Canada Minister of Transport Marc Garneau just announced that as the result of new data that they received this morning, they will no longer allow Boeing 737 Max 8 or 9 aircraft to take off and land or fly over Canadian airspace.
Canada have also grounded the MAX.
https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/boeing-737-max-8-ethiopia-airlines-crash/index.html
So you are saying that the new data that they received is not enough to justify their decision?
Busher quote: “I am not suggesting that these 737 accidents occurred because they happened outside North America.”
Well, I will, having been there up close and personal. The vast majority of these guys (95%+) wouldn’t cut it at a US 121 Carrier. Heck, one of the guys I flew with in Africa came over here after getting hired by United. He failed his sim and was fired. Southwest hired him and he failed IOE. He’s now slinging gear at Mesa. The only reason I flew with him is because my butt was in the cockpit, too.
I can tell you a hundred stories just like it. It’s not only the culture, which is a big issue in more ways than one, it’s a serious lack of training. Board these third world carriers at your peril. I won’t.
Ethiopian still have a very good reputation in the aviation industry. Your opinion wont change that.
Since you refuse to base anything on facts and make your judgement based on "they're from Africa" you have told me enough about yourself..About as baseless as his claim to sitting in the seat next to all these pilots. You got any pictures of flying a Jumbo jet Vraciu?
Since you refuse to base anything on facts and make your judgement based on "they're from Africa" you have told me enough about yourself..
About as baseless as his claim to sitting in the seat next to all these pilots. You got any pictures of flying a Jumbo jet Vraciu?
Who in Africa flies a "jumbo jet" there, Sparky?You can knit pick my terminology all you want. You still skated my question. Which speaks more on your character as a man, Buster.
You can knit pick my terminology all you want. You still skated my question. Which speaks more on your character as a man, Buster.
Reading not on your agenda today?No you just edited as I was typing it lol. Whenever you’d like to post proof of your flying resume I’ll be here to say you are right :).
Nice partial quote, Sport.
No you just edited as I was typing it lol. Whenever you’d like to post proof of your flying resume I’ll be here to say you are right :).
Worth mention is that Arek is a Nigerian mainly domestic airline, Ethiopian is the largest airline in Africa with traffic to a lot of NA and European destinations and part of Star Alliance...
I don’t claim to be important. I don’t fly either. I just use common sense thinking just like half of the world.
So you aren’t a pilot. You just claim to be. A man with nothing to hide wouldn’t mind sharing a photo or something. It’s not like we want your SSN. Keep trolling you seem to enjoy it. Although it’s rather bad.
Yeah, I know. Which is why I said they have a decent reputation IN AFRICA.
Arek is just a scaled down Ethiopian with more short haul as a percentage of flying. This increases their risk exposure. They fly some USA and Europe but it varies.
And the rest of the world. Like it or not but its still true.
If that helps you sleep better at night knock yourself out. My detailed exposition on the Legacy 600/650 is proof enough. I don't owe you anything.
Love the back peddling.
Wrong again!
(This is why I am glad to be an American. I don't want to be like the rest of the world.)
You are aware that for ex United have a code share agreement with Ethiopian, meaning that you can buy a ticket for a United flight that is flown by Ethiopian....
Nobody is backpedaling. I don't owe you a thing. Keep trolling.Another phony behind a keyboard.
Another phony behind a keyboard.
#WeaksauceLot of men went through a lot of training to call themselves a pilot. And then here’s you
Keep trolling.
Lot of men went through a lot of training to call themselves a pilot. And then here’s you
One has decided* based on safety--the FAA. The jet is still flying.
--
*They'll probably cave to the pressure from Snowflake Nation though.
Looks like my prediction came true.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/13/donald-trump-says-he-signed-order-ground-boeing-737-max-8/3152157002/
Looks like my prediction came true.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/03/13/donald-trump-says-he-signed-order-ground-boeing-737-max-8/3152157002/
Weird that its the President and not the FAA. In all other countries its the aviation safety authorities that have made the decision.Time to shop for another head of the FAA? Seems like they are bought out.
Time to shop for another head of the FAA? Seems like they are bought out.
Its at least astonishing that he just ran over the FAA.
Guess we was right after all. He made the right decision.
Its at least astonishing that he just ran over the FAA.
Glad you and I can see that human life is more important than travel and economics.
Fun fact: Boeing donated 1m to trumps inauguration fund. And he just dropped the hammer on them. I love that. He cares about human lives!
Time to shop for another head of the FAA? Seems like they are bought out.
Well, this has certainly gone off the tracks. :huh(https://i.postimg.cc/0jzY1kWy/476-EA829-C593-45-A6-B9-CD-75-AAF44-CB92-B.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)