For plinking I like .22 rimfires and HPA pellet guns. .22 pellets are 500/$10. Air pressure is cheap too. :D
Hehe good point,
I've got a Walther P22 rimfire (made after the exploding barrels issues) but when the plinking needs to get loud I use my S&W model 19 (mid 70's) 357 magnum
Looking to move into a rifle
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: icepac on March 20, 2020, 12:43:41 PM
How about a 9mm carbine?
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 20, 2020, 12:49:38 PM
That's what I was thinking with the Ruger PC9, but their fairly scarce these days with the current news and you can only watch so many youtubes, I haven't held and shot one yet
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: redcatcherb412 on March 20, 2020, 01:44:57 PM
At that price you might as well opt for the mini-30 tactical instead of a 9mm. Plenty of 7.62x39 ammo around and as long as all the ex commie lands and extremists the world over use that ammo, should be plentiful and cheap for a long time.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 20, 2020, 01:54:11 PM
At that price you might as well opt for the mini-30 tactical instead of a 9mm. Plenty of 7.62x39 ammo around and as long as all the ex commie lands and extremists the world over use that ammo, should be plentiful and cheap for a long time.
Thanks, over the phone the local gun shop quoted me $500. but... I don't know yet which model it is and whether its new or used, waiting for a call back
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: redcatcherb412 on March 20, 2020, 02:00:51 PM
Thanks, over the phone the local gun shop quoted me $500. but... I don't know yet which model it is and whether its new or used, waiting for a call back
Hungry
Wow msrp is up a bit from the $600 I bought mine for a few years back after they fixed the barrel bedding problem. The 5854 is sweet though, almost like a short M1A.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 20, 2020, 02:09:49 PM
Wow msrp is up a bit from the $600 I bought mine for a few years back after they fixed the barrel bedding problem. The 5854 is sweet though, almost like a short M1A.
Here's the Mini Thirty Tactical version, hold on let me grab a towel I think I'm drooling, lol
I opted for the blued version instead of the stainless, it is a sweet firing rifle. (https://i.postimg.cc/fbqnvLJD/ruger.jpg)
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hajo on March 20, 2020, 03:53:01 PM
I have an S&W MP Shield in .45 without a safety. love it
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 20, 2020, 04:07:42 PM
The S&W M&P Sport II seems to be taking a bad rap as "an entry level" AR15 but everything I see from people who have it absolutely love that one too. Go figure
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: redcatcherb412 on March 20, 2020, 04:19:35 PM
Regarding you post about range, the 9mm carbines out there IMO have a range window of about 200m max (obviously 9mm will go further, as will anything, but 200m is about the range where the velocity/lethality/accuracy/trajectory tends to have a large drop off). The Smith M/P you're posting about is a 223 caliber rifle/carbine, as opposed to the Ruger being a pistol caliber carbine. Huge difference between the two, but there is a place for either, or even both.
One other option you might consider is the Beretta Storm pistol caliber carbines, especially if you have a 92F handgun, or plan to get one, as the magazines the Storm takes are Beretta handgun magazines (which can be found inexpensively).
IMO if $ isn't a real decider between your 2 choices in the OP, get the AR platform .223 Smith rifle/carbine. It'll be a bit more expensive to shoot, but you gain a lot of accuracy, range, lethality, and the piles and piles and piles of aftermarket things you can add/do to an AR platform rifle.
FYI Reid Henrichs, the owner/instructor at Valor Ridge shooting school, has been running that same Smith M/P AR rifle for a year or two in many of his classes, both taking and teaching, and has a few K rounds through it, and it's run great for him (you can search his YT channel as he has a video about it specifically). Be sure to budget for some extra magazines, ammunition, sling, and a mounted white light (very important on any rifle you plan on using for anything other than day time range plinking).
edit - Video in question about the M&P AR15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKlS6O_AgWw
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 20, 2020, 06:57:55 PM
Gman, excellent info in the post and video, Thanks
What I'm fighting right now is the fact that my local has the PC9 carbine in store, the Sport II is uncertain on taking ownership, no-one seems to have them and wont quote or speculate on when. (even the 9mm ammo is almost out of stock) (smaller shop)
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Shuffler on March 20, 2020, 07:59:01 PM
I have an S&W MP Shield in .45 without a safety. love it
My wife and both daughters carry SW 9s. They like it a lot.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Maverick on March 21, 2020, 10:25:00 AM
I'm a bit old school. :old: I like the carbine concept but for me if I am going to have a modern (20th century or later) rifle I want a rifle cartridge in it. The exception to that is the 1800's situation where you had a rifle and handgun in the same caliber / cartridge. For me that would be one of the 1894 Winchester copies in either 357 or 45 LC with a DA wheel gun to go with it. I'm not that big of a fan of the 9mm / 40 or even 45 acp carbines although I admit that they DO have a use but to me more in the LEO world than the civilian one. I'm not saying they should be restricted in any way, they just don't do it for me.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 11:12:19 AM
I'm a bit old school. :old: I like the carbine concept but....
I really tried to do a Pros and Cons this am and I stalled at trying to find a good reason (pros) for the carbine over the AR. Why did I want it ? It dawned on me that where I started the carbine trail was at a website that (Gov Surplus) had the instructions for buying a real M1 carbine. Love the look, love the wood, the history everything about it. Didn't think I could get a "real" one so I tried to get the next best thing a modern carbine.
Problem is a 9mm modern carbine was a great alternative but in reality the limitations were to many and the cost difference to an AR was not that great. Probably would be a ton a fun at an outdoor range. A higher caliber carbine gets expensive.
So moral of the story, I'm back to looking for a mid range AR, of the three sons who have AR's they have a Ruger, an IWI and a PSA
An S&W M&P Sport 2 would fit nicely into that bunch, unless I go off the deep end in these screwy times and think that something with more range than theirs's would be a better fit. lol.
Thanks for the advice folks, all AR alternatives in the $600. to $800. range are welcome (I think that's where it will fall)
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 21, 2020, 11:26:48 AM
I have a Ruger Precision .22 for my plinking. Love it. SWFA scope. Atlas bipod. (https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/45439-DEFAULT-l.jpg)
It's a trainer for my Ruger 6.5 Creedmoor (much cheaper to spend a day practicing with the .22 and then 10 rounds through the 6.5 :D).
I have a Ruger Precision .22 for my plinking. Love it. SWFA scope. Atlas bipod. (https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/45439-DEFAULT-l.jpg)
It's a trainer for my Ruger 6.5 Creedmoor (much cheaper to spend a day practicing with the .22 and then 10 rounds through the 6.5 :D).
Wow nice, how far can you reach out and touch someone with the Creedmoor? $1600 to $2000 list price rifle according to the current prices on Ruger's web site?
PS Ruger keeps popping up, must be something to it
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 12:01:53 PM
Lol, Long range on a budget, 1000 yards for less than a $1000. (granted its a 2017 video)
Lets get some Bolt Action!! Ruger American Predator
Wow nice, how far can you reach out and touch someone with the Creedmoor? $1600 to $2000 list price rifle according to the current prices on Ruger's web site?
PS Ruger keeps popping up, must be something to it
Hungry
It's "effective" range is dictated the range at which the round goes transonic. As the round falls through the sonic speed it passes through a shock way that disturbs the trajectory. You probability cone widens significantly past that.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is a beautiful modern designed round. Much superior ballistically to the .308. Flatter shooting. Faster travel time. It goes transonic at around 1200-1400 yd.
With practice you can reliably hit a man sized target at 1000 yd. You can certainly lob rounds beyond that, but it starts becoming sheer luck if you hit what you're aiming at.
It's a bucket list item for me to work my way up to 1000 yd. There is a private club not too far from my land where I can shoot to 500 yd and after passing a qualification course, be allowed to shoot at the 1000 yd range. But I've been distracted by real life over the last year and have gotten off track. I'll like practicing again.
At 100 yd, my groups typically run ~0.6". When I can consistently hit 0.5" I'll go back and start 500 yd at the club.
The nice thing about the precision .22 is it is design to replicate the ergonomics of the 6.5 CM as closely as possible to reinforce your muscle memory. And because the .22 is much more effected by wind drift and drop, they say it equivalent of shoot 3x the distance with a center-fire. So practicing with the .22 at my 175 rd target teaches a lot of the skills I need to hit at 500 yd with the CM.
I can't remember what I paid for the CM. I think it was around $1200. It has a reputation of matching precision rifles 2x to 3x it's price. Yeah. Ruger has been on a roll last couple of years with some really innovative designs.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 21, 2020, 12:16:58 PM
The Predator is a very nice rifle for the price. excellent value for the money. I almost got that one, then the Precision hit the market.
I had an Ruger American .22 (shoots like a friggen laser!) with is a very similar design that got me hooked on the idea of precision shooting as opposed to just spraying bullets with an AK or AR. :D
Precision shooting and reloading appeals more to my OCD. :aok
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 12:19:07 PM
It's "effective" range is dictated the range at which the round goes transonic. As the round falls through the sonic speed it passes through a shock way that disturbs the trajectory. You probability cone widens significantly past that.
The 6.5 Creedmoor is a beautiful modern designed round. Much superior ballistically to the .308. Flatter shooting. Faster travel time. It goes transonic at around 1200-1400 yd.
With practice you can reliably hit a man sized target at 1000 yd. You can certainly lob rounds beyond that, but it starts becoming sheer luck if you hit what you're aiming at.
It's a bucket list item for me to work my way up to 1000 yd. There is a private club not too far from my land where I can shoot to 500 yd and after passing a qualification course, be allowed to shoot at the 1000 yd range. But I've been distracted by real life over the last year and have gotten off track. I'll like practicing again.
At 100 yd, my groups typically run ~0.6". When I can consistently hit 0.5" I'll go back and start 500 yd at the club.
The nice thing about the precision .22 is it is design to replicate the ergonomics of the 6.5 CM as closely as possible to reinforce your muscle memory. And because the .22 is much more effected by wind drift and drop, they say it equivalent of shoot 3x the distance with a center-fire. So practicing with the .22 at my 175 rd target teaches a lot of the skills I need to hit at 500 yd with the CM.
I can't remember what I paid for the CM. I think it was around $1200. It has a reputation of matching precision rifles 2x to 3x it's price. Yeah. Ruger has been on a roll last couple of years with some really innovative designs.
Nice Nice Nice!
In reality I'd probably be looking for something that can reliably hit targets just farther than the sons AR's if I were to go that way. 300 to 400 yards? I think the grandfathers 1960's Remington scoped 30-06 would have done it, dam I should have never sold it
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 21, 2020, 12:28:19 PM
In reality I'd probably be looking for something that can reliably hit targets just farther than the sons AR's if I were to go that way. 300 to 400 yards? I think the grandfathers 1960's Remington scoped 30-06 would have done it, dam I should have never sold it
Hungry
Out to 500 yd the .308 competes perfectly well with the Creedmoor. If you don't want to reach out past that, I wouldn't shun a .308. Many more available models. Longer barrel life. Cheaper ammo more available ammo.
A bit more kick but not bad with a muzzle brake. Certainly not as bad as a 30-06. :D
Though a 30-06 is a good survival rifle to have in your safe. It can take down any game in the continental US from deer to elk to bear. Cheap plentiful ammo.
I've though about getting one. Not really a precision rifle but certainly a useful utility rifle.
:salute
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: icepac on March 21, 2020, 01:04:11 PM
I found a .22 in my girl's lingerie drawer. A present from her father.
It had one in the chamber and the bizarre design will not let you eject the magazine without leaving one in the chamber unless you fire them all so I went outside (rural), cocked it, and pulled the trigger. You can't cycle the slide without the magazine in it. It sounded like a cap gun and the bullet traveled about 15 feet so I cycled it and none of the other rounds fired.
Took it apart and found burs and dents in the slide and frame so I filed them down smooth, cleaned it, and oiled it.
I think an old boyfriend beat it up a bit playing with it. (not actually firing it.....just racking it)
After loading 8 new rounds in the 10 round magazine, I put up a target and it shot a 4 inch group at 15 yards without any malfunctions. Then I cleaned it and oiled it again and wrapped it in a bag and ordered a second magazine.
It was actually the third handgun I've ever fired and the others were 20 years ago though I've shot plenty of rifles.
I was very impressed how it performed and the sights were dead on.
The Phoenix HP22 with the 5 inch barrel seems pretty accurate though it's hard to find ammo of the fps that phoenix recommended so I got some federal ammo quite a bit hotter since anyone complaining about cracks had shot thousands of hot rounds. I only intend to fire it when needed so I doubt it will be experiencing cracks.
Was just about to buy a walther PPKs but don't feel the need now.
A .22 pistol is much more a firearm than I expected and I think the 5 inch barrel really wakes up this one.
Now her father has offered a bunch of his non-functional rifles and handguns to me.
Hoping for a free 30:06 or .243 since I have experience with them.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 21, 2020, 01:33:47 PM
Browing Buck Mark (amazing what 2 extra inches does for accuracy ;)) (https://www.guncritic.com/assets/products/2529/images/browning-buck-mark-camper-22-lr-semiautomatic-pistol.jpg)
Sprinfield XDS 9mm for protection (https://grabagun.com/media/catalog/product/cache/c4c6fd50ccd89ba94f340f88fccf66b7/S/p/Springfield-Armory-XD-S-XDS9339S-706397899899.jpg_1.jpg)
Springfield XD-M .45 for serious pest removal (https://gun.deals/sites/default/files/fd8a0a03dea00dbca800a03f56f94365_1.jpg)
Added the pistol range this winter so ready to get some practice!
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 01:42:07 PM
I have a Walther P22, fun 22 caliber hand gun 22LR ammo, recently brushed up the wife's skills with it at the indoor range, fits my hand fits her hand and real easy to control while firing,
Two things I did do to it was extended the length of the barrel and went with a competition slide spring, not sure that's the correct term. The new spring really helped how do I say it, with the rechamber of the ammo and the overall cocking mechanism, the barrel extension I took off and threw in the bag, made no real difference at an indoor range in terms of distance from target
The only other fireable gun I own at the moment is my 1977 model 19 S&W 357 Magnum, 4 inch barrel, combat hammer, trigger and grips, perfect condition. I don't think that thing has misfired no matter what ammo I throw at it in the 43 years I've owned it, a real gem.
Funny part is that I still keep it in my 1970's hippie looking patchwork blue jean's bag made to the shape of the pistol
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: FLS on March 21, 2020, 02:13:27 PM
What I suggest you do is decide what you want the new gun to be suitable for. Your first post mentioned plinking.
If you don't already have a 5.56 sport rifle that's a good choice for being generally useful. You can get .22 versions for cheap practice and fun shooting.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 05:59:47 PM
So I was doing a what if, what if I went with the S&W M&P Sport 2 AR model 10305, I found it about $75.00 higher than normal.
Then I started looking for 5.56 ammo Brass FMJ, started with Federal American Eagle, that's what I use in the 357 just got two boxes of 50 about 3 weeks ago.
Guess what, the US is practically out of 5.56 ammo, and what there is, talk about hoarding toilet paper, talk about price gouging for N95 masks, these ammo guys win the prize. What is in stock is practically double the normal price.
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: FLS on March 21, 2020, 06:15:05 PM
If it was the normal price it wouldn't be in stock.
The US isn't out of 5.56 or TP. It's just stored in people's homes.
Don't wait until there is an emergency to get emergency supplies.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 06:41:09 PM
If it was the normal price it wouldn't be in stock.
The US isn't out of 5.56 or TP. It's just stored in people's homes.
Don't wait until there is an emergency to get emergency supplies.
"It's just stored in people's homes". I know, that's why I made the hoarding toilet paper crack
"Don't wait until there is an emergency to get emergency supplies" Solid advice, I was really window shopping, adding up total initial costs, thank heavens
PS We have plenty of ammo for what we have, and toilet paper, lol
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Chalenge on March 21, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
I have three recent purchases and considered the S&W, but finally went with the Ruger AR-556, because my local chain store had one with all the mods I wanted already installed (except a Timney trigger). I have a Savage Axis in 6.5 Creedmoor, a Remington 700 in 7mm, and the Ruger. My favorite is the Savage, even thought the 7mm absolutely blows it out of the water for range. I can hit up to 900 yards with the Ruger, 1,400 with the savage, and 2,000 with the Remington. Probably the glass makes all the difference, though. I use Leupold on all of the above, but recently bought an ancient Unertl 25 power and mounted it to the Remington.
All of the above I reload with Lapua brass, Berger bullets, and CCI Primers, but I never found a powder that was common to all three cartridges.
This coming Fall, if the travel quarantine is lifted, I will be hunting Dall and Elk. All year round I do coyote hunts by request of the stock owners (cattle), so my intention is to suppress the Ruger at some point. The, or maybe I'll just go with a Daniel Defense, or Wilson Combat model with their proprietary suppressor.
This hobby is getting to be really popular with the preppers, and supplies can be hard to acquire!
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 21, 2020, 07:47:52 PM
One of the sons just got the Ruger 8542 AR556, just last night he ran 150 rounds through it to check/setup the sights and play with it a bit, he added that now that the state (Illinois) is closing up, the range is non essential and closed but the sales front end is open.
Thanks for the info, I bet that you could have added "This hobby is getting to be really popular and expensive", lol
Since I retired I've been picking up woodworking pieces, table saw band saw and the like, woodworking is definitely cheaper to get into than guns, my oversize garage would never make it for a shooting range but makes a great little woodshop, lol (I know, everything has its high end mid range and low end)
Thanks again for posting
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 22, 2020, 09:16:27 AM
I warned more than a month ago, get what ya need now, it will be harder to get anything after all the sheep are awake to the Kung Flu threat.. They're awake now.. But, it's just the flu right, no worries..
Buy the 5.56 Rifle.. My wife has a 10.5 inch AR Pistol, she loves it, aside from being really LOUD!
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 10:10:08 AM
I warned more than a month ago, get what ya need now, it will be harder to get anything after all the sheep are awake to the Kung Flu threat.. They're awake now.. But, it's just the flu right, no worries..
Buy the 5.56 Rifle.. My wife has a 10.5 inch AR Pistol, she loves it, aside from being really LOUD!
Sounds like a plan, talked to the gun shop yesterday and let them know that I wouldn't be taking the Ruger Carbine, the AR itself I can find at a reasonable price, however like you say there is no ammo right now.
Saw a YouTube this am from a gun shop owner in Indiana. The majority of his recent customers are all first time buyers, further they are buying whatever he has ammo for not what they really might need for target practice or home defense.
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 22, 2020, 10:29:46 AM
Hungry:
The manufacturers are crankin out the 5.56 now, 24/7.. Shipment of foreign AK ammo has stopped!
But there is a terrible scalping/gouging problem right now on all the service calibers.. I don't even know when that will stop for the foreseeable future, greedy bahstuds..
I understand why people are buying whatever they can get ammo for.. In the Normal world, an AR would be the go to choice.. But I don't know when Normal world will return.. The USA as we knew it might NEVER return, god help us, :pray..
Lever guns, in magnum pistol calibers, or like .30/30, are a viable option.. If you already have a .357, then a lever rifle greatly increases the performance of that Cartridge!
Would be a decent option in a pinch! And in your state, might be easier to get than a semiauto..
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 10:38:10 AM
The manufacturers are crankin out the 5.56 now, 24/7.. Shipment of foreign AK ammo has stopped!
But there is a terrible scalping/gouging problem right now on all the service calibers.. I don't even know when that will stop for the foreseeable future, greedy bahstuds..
I understand why people are buying whatever they can get ammo for.. In the Normal world, an AR would be the go to choice.. But I don't know when Normal world will return.. The USA as we knew it might NEVER return, god help us, :pray..
Lever guns, in magnum pistol calibers, or like .30/30 are a viable option.. If you already have a .357, then a lever rifle greatly increases the performance of that Cartridge! Would be a decent option in a pinch!
I understand the ammo shop website Cheap and Dirty is really taking a lot of heat even to the point of a future boycott among gun owners for basically doubling the prices of all ammo
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 22, 2020, 10:43:58 AM
Yep, CTD is on my Crap list.. Mega stupid, :rofl Gun people tend to have a long memory..
They lost me as a customer.. :bolt:
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 22, 2020, 11:00:42 AM
Just purchased a Vortex Spitfire scope for my .556. Weather breaks I'll mount and sight it.
Which one? looks like they come in different power ranges? Saw a nice scope this am that had a side lever that took it from 1 - 6x I think? Roughly close up tp 400 yards? What range (yards) are you going for, or would do most of your shooting at.
Forgive me if its a silly question, still a grasshopper
LoL. Sorry man. Consistency can be a pain, I know.
:rofl
Consistency is one thing lack self restraint is another, I really don't want to get into politics here, please and thankyou
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: FLS on March 22, 2020, 11:25:29 AM
As I mentioned before, expensive ammo that's available is better than no ammo available. Raising the price reduces hording. An alternative is reducing the quantity you sell to each customer regardless of how much the customer needs.
If you don't want the expensive ammo, buy the low priced ammo somewhere else. If you can't find any you prove my point. It's not like they bought up all the available ammo and then raised the price, they are just making some available to people who need it enough to pay a premium.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 22, 2020, 11:26:17 AM
Which one? looks like they come in different power ranges? Saw a nice scope this am that had a side lever that took it from 1 - 6x I think? Roughly close up tp 400 yards? What range (yards) are you going for, or would do most of your shooting at.
Forgive me if its a silly question, still a grasshopper
I prefer the 1-6X and 1-8X.. With Mildot reticle.. But if you are not familiar with the Mildot system, the a BDC is also available.. I use a 1-8X Mildot on my primary weapon.. (S&W M&P10)
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 11:28:58 AM
I prefer the 1-6X and 1-8X.. With Mildot reticle.. But if you are not familiar with the Mildot system, the a BDC is also available.. I use a 1-8X Mildot on my primary weapon.. (S&W M&P10)
Appreciated
Thanks
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 11:34:58 AM
As I mentioned before, expensive ammo that's available is better than no ammo available. Raising the price reduces hording. An alternative is reducing the quantity you sell to each customer regardless of how much the customer needs.
If you don't want the expensive ammo, buy the low priced ammo somewhere else. If you can't find any you prove my point. It's not like they bought up all the available ammo and then raised the price, they are just making some available to people who need it enough to pay a premium.
What brand do you consider a decent 556 low priced ammo, for example in the past and the recent order I've used Federal American Eagle or I forget which one a Remington in the 357. One of the sons used a Frontier in his AR (Hornady?)
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 22, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
I'd recommend at least looking at the SWFA scopes. These guys make scope for the military and the re-sale the same designs commercially.
These scope provide some of the best bang for the buck you can find. Excellent qualty. Tough as a rock.
I'd maybe recommend something like a fixed 10x if you are wanting to shoot to 500 yd.
What brand do you consider a decent 556 low priced ammo, for example in the past and the recent order I've used Federal American Eagle or I forget which one a Remington in the 357. One of the sons used a Frontier in his AR (Hornady?)
Hungry
Note: Winchester recently assumed production from Federal/American Eagle at the Lake City facilities.. Things to look for on .556 ammo.. Crimped case mouth, crimped primer pocket, annealed case shoulder, (heat treat is visible) and sealer on the primer.. That is Milspec ammo.. M173 is standard 55gr ball.. M855 has the green tip, has a steel penetrator core.. Hornady/Frontier, PMC, PPU/Pervi Partizan, is good too.. Anything ammo from IMI, is excellent!
Also note that 5.56X45 ammo is higher pressure than .223 ammo.. Use only in rifles chambered for 5.56X45 marked on the barrel..
Steer away from the steel case for SHTF, unless you KNOW your weapon will eat it.. It can be a little jammy in ARs, some will, some won't.. Sticking cases that need to knocked out = bad news!
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 12:01:34 PM
Note: Winchester recently assumed production from Federal/American Eagle at the Lake City facilities.. Things to look for on .556 ammo.. Crimped case mouth, crimped primer pocket, annealed case shoulder, (heat treat is visible) and sealer on the primer.. That is Milspec ammo.. M173 is standard 55gr ball.. M855 has the green tip, has a steel penetrator core.. Hornady/Frontier, PMC, PPU/Pervi Partizan, is good too..
Steer away from the steel case for SHTF, unless you KNOW your weapon will eat it.. It can be a little jammy in ARs, some will, some won't.. Sticking cases that need to knocked out = bad news!
Thanks man, I'm taking notes!
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: FLS on March 22, 2020, 12:05:37 PM
What brand do you consider a decent 556 low priced ammo, for example in the past and the recent order I've used Federal American Eagle or I forget which one a Remington in the 357. One of the sons used a Frontier in his AR (Hornady?)
Hungry
I haven't been following the market. Any newly manufactured ammo available should work but as you're finding out this is not a good time to buy.
For scopes you want to consider the target type and shooting style as well as the range you'll be shooting at. Rapid shots at large possibly moving targets are different than paper punching at extreme range, hence variable power scopes in various sizes, but glass adds weight too while optical sights are lighter and smaller but less precise at distance.
This leads back to my comment that you want to be clear on the intended use. Do you want an all purpose sport rifle that does everything you need, plinking to self defense? There is a lot of expert opinion online when you decide what you want.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 22, 2020, 12:07:15 PM
Thanks questions, questions, is 18.7 ounces heavy for an AR or even a 6.8 pound Carbine???? I think the Spitfire one Hajo just bought is around 15?
Or is that what the trade off is Distance for weight?
Hungry
I dunno. Would you notice a 4oz difference on a 7lb gun?
I guess in my mind the more important question is your Philosophy of Use. What is the majority of your use case? It's hard to optimize for both short-range tactiCool and 500 yd precision simultaneously. You'd have to make a trade-off one way or the other.
SWFA makes other scopes. Shorter range tactical I'd lean more to a fixed 6x. If I was going to want to do a bunch of 500 yd shooting with reasonable precision, I'd want a fixed 10x and mil:mil turrets.
If I was going to be running around a barricade course doing operator stuff, I'd be more worried about every ounce. If I was going to be doing a lot of 200-500 yd shooting I wouldn't care because I'd be shooting supported. My precision shooting is all done prone with bipod and squeeze bag.
Of course with a carbine, precision is relative. ;)
[Edit] Since you have mentioned the Predator 6.5 CM, that and a fixed 10x SWFA would make an excellent budget conscious entry level precision rifle/scope combo. :D
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 12:20:29 PM
Maybe that's why I haven't bought one yet, what's the intended use?
I started with plinking, then getting out there just farther than the sons ar's, plinking and self defense sounds good, maybe I'm really talking two guns here.
Truthfully I don't hunt game, but I do enjoy going to the indoor range a lot and am looking forward to this summer, if things settle down, to going to the outdoor range by the sons house (he's got the IWI AR)
Hmmmmmm
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: FLS on March 22, 2020, 12:31:56 PM
Here you go. All you need is a pistol. :devil
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: CptTrips on March 22, 2020, 12:36:02 PM
I started with plinking, then getting out there just farther than the sons ar's, plinking and self defense sounds good, maybe I'm really talking two guns here.
Heh. Obviously you need multiple guns. :D Yeah, that's exactly how it starts. :aok
AR is my absolute last choice of a home defense weapon. I want a .45 pistol with man-killer hollow-points. I'd choose that over even a shotgun. Any day of the week. If I'm maneuvering around doorways and hallways in tight confines, I don't want to be managing a long barrel. And AR rounds would just go through too many walls for my liking.
Maybe since your son already has a Spray-n-Pray AR, you should get a budget precision rifle? That way you'all can take turns playing Tony "Say Hello to My Little Friend" Montana with his tacticool and then take turns playing Carlos Hathcock with your precision boom-stick?
Or get both. :D
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 12:41:28 PM
Holy Christopher! Nothing to it! a 150 foot arc, note the time delay from the shot to the balloon popping, hehe
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 22, 2020, 12:45:54 PM
Both of my .50BMG rifles have 8-36x60 on them..
My T/C Venture in .300Winmag, and Savage Stealth in .338Lapua both have 6-24x50..
My .224Valkyrie has 4-16x50..
My 7.5 and 10.5in AR pistols use T/dot dot scopes, 100% co/witnessed with the Irons.. Offer super fast target acquisition at shorter ranges..
I use no optics on my AKs, irons only.. Ace side folders complicate the optic configuration on AKs
Different sights/optics for different purposes, :aok
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 01:03:59 PM
I know in the past I've made the mistake of thinking "One Size Fits All" but in so many cases it really doesn't, usually turns out it doesn't do anything well.
I'm not rushing this one, with prices the way they are right now with everything going on, looks like I'll have plenty of time to make up my mind until they hopefully come back halfway to normal
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Shuffler on March 22, 2020, 04:02:24 PM
Obviously some on this thread are not familiar with ARs and their accuracy.
Now if you just want to throw shells an AK is fine. They are not accurate as they are rattle traps. Built to shoot while full of sand.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Oldman731 on March 22, 2020, 05:44:17 PM
Since I retired I've been picking up woodworking pieces, table saw band saw and the like, woodworking is definitely cheaper to get into than guns, my oversize garage would never make it for a shooting range but makes a great little woodshop, lol (I know, everything has its high end mid range and low end)
Then no need to think about plastic guns! Check here:
Which one? looks like they come in different power ranges? Saw a nice scope this am that had a side lever that took it from 1 - 6x I think? Roughly close up tp 400 yards? What range (yards) are you going for, or would do most of your shooting at.
Forgive me if its a silly question, still a grasshopper
It's X3 with lighted sights. Can choose red,green or the standard black. Battery powered of course.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 06:53:18 PM
Oldman - FLS Neat websites that'll keep me busy for awhile, Thanks
Hajo, Thanks
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 07:53:02 PM
One down maybe one to go, Found the S&W AR Sport 2 at Grice in PA, (Oldman please don't tell me anything bad about them lol) under $600 ($589.) for the full on Magpul / M-Lok version, Iron sights, Yeeeaaaahh!
Not too bad also got 25 boxes of 20 Federal American Eagle 55 grain, FMJ at .32 a piece (ammo in stock, gun is also in stock)
This is the model number I listed in the first post, Holy Smokes, please someone tell me wtg or good deal or something! hehe
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 22, 2020, 08:02:11 PM
Hungry: WTG.. Hope ya get your hands on it before the situation gets worse.. Decent price too.. Hopefully the vendor doesn't dillydally.. Sometimes they do, :bhead
Now they are talkin about shutting down gun stores, as non essential businesses.. :rolleyes: Or, there is no one at the FBI to do background checks, so no gun sales..
Word is, they are starting to empty the jails.. People in Urban/Suburban areas better keep a gun handy!
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Oldman731 on March 22, 2020, 08:31:39 PM
One down maybe one to go, Found the S&W AR Sport 2 at Grice in PA, (Oldman please don't tell me anything bad about them lol) under $600 ($589.) for the full on Magpul / M-Lok version, Iron sights, Yeeeaaaahh!
Not too bad also got 25 boxes of 20 Federal American Eagle 55 grain, FMJ at .32 a piece (ammo in stock, gun is also in stock)
This is the model number I listed in the first post, Holy Smokes, please someone tell me wtg or good deal or something! hehe
Hungry
Cool! You saved enough money to get some accessories:
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 22, 2020, 10:04:02 PM
Thanks to all for the great advice, I'm sure I'll have more questions
Can't wait to get it home
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Chalenge on March 22, 2020, 11:45:12 PM
Several stores (Rural King, Bass Pro Shops, Cabela, . . .) allow you to ship-to-store, and you can also use them as the FFL in transfers. You can order guns, ammo, and reloading supplies and they may even call you when your order arrives. There are still plenty of ways to get guns and ammo.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 23, 2020, 07:52:31 AM
Several stores (Rural King, Bass Pro Shops, Cabela, . . .) allow you to ship-to-store, and you can also use them as the FFL in transfers. You can order guns, ammo, and reloading supplies and they may even call you when your order arrives. There are still plenty of ways to get guns and ammo.
Its funny you should say that, I found out that your 100% correct by chance. Instead of searching for the model of gun and type of ammo, I changed the search criteria to "Largest US Gun Stores" and came up with a set of names of stores that I hadn't seen before. Sure enough several had what I was looking for in stock at reasonable prices
Thanks
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Shuffler on March 23, 2020, 08:48:14 AM
:D 9 pound weapon, 35 pounds of accessories.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 23, 2020, 08:59:54 AM
You mean this one? The Sport 2 is 6.7 pounds total as is, less ammo. That's good isn't it?
Or were you making a joke about something else?
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 23, 2020, 09:02:40 AM
I try to keep my money local, so I handle my transfers at the Local Gun Store, (LGS).. But yes the big Sports retailers also handle transfers.. I've known my LGS proprietor for 25yrs.. His FFL is on file with all the wholesalers, and Gunbroker etc.. After all these years he just accepts whatever comes under my name.. :cheers:
I build my own AR15s, have 6 finished in various calibers and configurations.. And 4 lowers hanging on the wall.. Like popcorn, can't stop at one handful..
Hungry I just assumed you were looking at the online websites.. Buds, Impact, Aimsports, Centerfire, Atlantic, many others, or Gunbroker where they all sell.. Searching the web by the make of gun would be less efficient..
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 23, 2020, 09:17:58 AM
I try to keep my money local, so I handle my transfers at the Local Gun Store, (LGS).. But yes the big Sports retailers also handle transfers.. I've known my LGS proprietor for 25yrs.. His FFL is on file with all the wholesalers, and Gunbroker etc.. After all these years he just accepts whatever comes under my name.. :cheers:
I build my own AR15s, have 6 finished in various calibers and configurations.. And 4 lowers hanging on the wall.. Like popcorn, can't stop at one handful..
Hungry I just assumed you were looking at the online websites.. Buds, Impact, Aimsports, Centerfire, Atlantic, many others, or Gunbroker where they all sell.. Searching the web by the make of gun would be less efficient..
I live in Illinois so I did the same, having it shipped to my local FFL dealer about 5 miles from the house.
Out of curiosity, how much do the AR's you build weigh? Same ballpark as the 6.7 pounds or less?
PS the Dark Man Cometheth thread that you started is going strong at 100 pages on my screen
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 23, 2020, 09:32:59 AM
Weight for an AR pretty much depends on the barrel style, (heaviest part).. Pencil barrels are the lightest.. Bull barrel the heaviest.. Bunch of different styles.. For a slick 16in factory made carbine that is pretty average weight..
Example.. I have a 20in Heavy Barrel 5.56 with bipod 100rd C/mag and binary trigger.. Without the mag/ammo is just under 9pds, but that is configured as a LMG.. A2 length fixed stock and folding carry handle.. Just depends on how ya build it..
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Maverick on March 23, 2020, 10:03:20 AM
Whatever you want to buy, I hope you have ammo already because the hoarding stupidity has struck again. Most stores are low if not out of the common calibers for rifle and handgun. The internet sales folks are out of case sized quantities of regular ammo and have just small boxes of "premium" duty / self defense ammo on hand.
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 23, 2020, 11:24:28 AM
Whatever you want to buy, I hope you have ammo already because the hoarding stupidity has struck again. Most stores are low if not out of the common calibers for rifle and handgun. The internet sales folks are out of case sized quantities of regular ammo and have just small boxes of "premium" duty / self defense ammo on hand.
Got it covered thanks, 25 boxes of 20, Federal American Eagle 55 grain, FMJ at .32 a piece (ammo in stock)
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 23, 2020, 11:45:12 AM
Got it covered thanks, 25 boxes of 20, Federal American Eagle 55 grain, FMJ at .32 a piece (ammo in stock)
Hungry
Magazines, standard is 10.. 30rd Magpul are available in 10 packs.. Gunmag Warehouse, 10pack $109 in stock ready to ship.. Webgear to carry them is handy too..
We, have been Self Isolated since 3/6/20..
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Chalenge on March 23, 2020, 06:45:57 PM
If all you have to do is transfer a gun then your local store has always been the best option. Right now when it is impossible to get things the package store delivery is your best option, at least in some cases because of additional shipping fees. When it comes to reloading, as I do, some shops will charge a Hazmat fee for every item. I like Bass Pro Shops because they have a huge inventory, significant buying power, and never charge for transfers or hazmat.
Also, while my local shop can still get some items, they refuse to expand their inventory to include bullets, or better primers. Also, their price on the Ruger (just for instance) has recently been elevated because of 'scarcity' as they call it. Yet, BPS is selling it for less than MSRP, and Rural King much less!
Anyway, for 9mm right now the only solution is as follows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N2_LqGGIgg
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 24, 2020, 08:13:57 AM
Magazines, standard is 10.. 30rd Magpul are available in 10 packs.. Gunmag Warehouse, 10pack $109 in stock ready to ship.. Webgear to carry them is handy too..
We, have been Self Isolated since 3/6/20..
Mags, the son gave me a Magpul Pmag 30 Gen 2 yesterday, Mags are definitely something that Ill have to catch up on, Thanks
PS Wife is 61 I'm 66, since early march we've left the house less than a handful of times, necessities only!
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 24, 2020, 08:28:57 AM
If all you have to do is transfer a gun then your local store has always been the best option. Right now when it is impossible to get things the package store delivery is your best option, at least in some cases because of additional shipping fees. When it comes to reloading, as I do, some shops will charge a Hazmat fee for every item. I like Bass Pro Shops because they have a huge inventory, significant buying power, and never charge for transfers or hazmat.
Also, while my local shop can still get some items, they refuse to expand their inventory to include bullets, or better primers. Also, their price on the Ruger (just for instance) has recently been elevated because of 'scarcity' as they call it. Yet, BPS is selling it for less than MSRP, and Rural King much less!
Anyway, for 9mm right now the only solution is as follows:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8N2_LqGGIgg
LOL That reload machine is wicked cool! not including the cost of the machine I wonder what he's got the price per round at?
I like to do everything as local as possible but both shops I tried to approach about the gun and ammo must have been in panic mode, both said basically " We don't have it, don't know when we can get it and don't know what the price will be when we do" might sound funny but some gun shops around here come off with this almost tough guy attitude.
The FFL I used is woman owned, very knowledgeable but a small shop, prices are reasonable but not great. But she's definitely real easy and straightforward to work with.
Hungry
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: OldNitro on March 24, 2020, 08:34:17 AM
Yep, there are some advantages for the big stores..
When all the little stores are crushed by this, the Corporate big box stores will still be open.. That's the plan anyway, no surprise there.. Easier for the "authorities" to control/monitor..
Only gun I ever purchased from a big box store, is a Charter Arms, Bulldog .44 Special.. Cabelas in Lacey WA had it in stock, so I went to look at it.. Long drive, and it was $50 more than online.. But it was worth it because I could walk out with it, and ammo, and holster.. So I did.. :aok
Most little stores don't stock all the minutia.. Don't have room for it, and too hard to compete with the online stores like Midway, Natches, CDN, etc.. Never really bothered me because I buy that stuff direct, and if they are a certified small biz, there is still no interstate tax, SO FAR..
WA Guv just laid down the a 2 week travel restriction.. Knew it was comin, here we go..
LOL, yeah I have seen some serious ego issues in gun store employees.. Matter o fact, see a lot of that all over the Gun world..
Title: Re: Ruger PC9 Carbine or S&W M&P Sport 2
Post by: Hungry on March 24, 2020, 09:01:52 AM
How did you like that? I always thought it was a clever idea, but never heard what it was like.
- oldman
Great pistol, plenty accurate enough at 10ft.. Good hitting power with 200gr Gold Dots, without the overpenetration danger of .357.. Small, works perfectly for summer time IWB carry.. With heavier seasonal clothing, I just carry a full size auto (usually a G17 with night sights)..