General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on June 21, 2020, 04:14:14 PM
Title: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on June 21, 2020, 04:14:14 PM
This Mustang is probably one of the most iconic of the Pacific War. We've all seen this footage. I am wondering if anyone has any decent images of the nose art figure.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Hajo on July 31, 2020, 02:57:14 PM
V I did considerable searching and found nothing so far but the short clip on The Deacon. I found some info on the 21st but nothing that would help. No photos at all.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on July 31, 2020, 03:24:19 PM
V I did considerable searching and found nothing so far but the short clip on The Deacon. I found some info on the 21st but nothing that would help. No photos at all.
Thanks.
Wish I knew what the nose art was. That's all I need to finish the skin.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: LNG15 on July 31, 2020, 05:12:29 PM
I am in the FB P-51 Mustang group run by Chris Fahey and I sent a request out to see if I can get some help with it.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Waltz41 on July 31, 2020, 05:33:00 PM
I'll ask Carl Molesworth (Osprey's VLR Mustang book author) and Mark Stevens (7th Fighter Command Historian) to see if they have anything on this airplane. I have a couple other friends overseas that might be able to help if they have anything.
Excellent job though digging through the Deacon comic! Very impressed with the work there!
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on July 31, 2020, 08:54:44 PM
Thanks guys. Here's to hoping you dig up something. :cheers:
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 01, 2020, 12:02:24 AM
The Deacon in the comic strips I have mostly wears blue suits. Few other colours here and there. Possibly we have Mickey with his hands up Mr Death in the back ground with the Deacon. You have to have the hero somewhere in that image.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 01, 2020, 06:55:55 AM
Perhaps The Deacon is facing Mr. Death ready to clobber him.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Hajo on August 01, 2020, 10:19:08 AM
Vraciu hold your breath. Some years ago in our quest to have the Beaufighter introduced to the AH inventory by Dan and myself, the NASM was of great help. They sent me a -1, drawings and schematics on the Beau. At that time all this info I mailed to Pyro at HiTech Creations. I hope they still have it.
I just got in touch with the NASM again, the research department, about the 21st FG in Iwo circa 44 and specifically photos of "The Deacon" along with other pertinent info . They are extremely helpful and their information is impeccable. I should get a response from them next week. They are quick, thorough and accurate.
Any info that I get (hopefully) will directly go to Lyric. He will determine what is useful and pass it on.
Hajo
Vraciu I'll keep you updated on any progress realizing the difficult times were are going through now. The NASM is closed for the time being to the public. The Research Dept. hopefully is still in business.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 01, 2020, 10:21:47 AM
Vraciu hold your breath. Some years ago in our quest to have the Beaufighter introduced to the AH inventory by Dan and myself, the NASM was of great help. They sent me a -1, drawings and schematics on the Beau. At that time all this info I mailed to Pyro at HiTech Creations. I hope they still have it.
I just got in touch with the NASM again, the research department, about the 21st FG in Iwo circa 44 and specifically photos of "The Deacon" along with other pertinent info . They are extremely helpful and their information is impeccable. I should get a response from them next week. They are quick, thorough and accurate.
Any info that I get will directly go to Lyric. He will determine what is useful and pass it on.
Hajo
Nice very helpful.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 01, 2020, 11:02:18 AM
Thank you, Hajo. Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 01, 2020, 09:53:54 PM
It's just too blurry to have any idea what's going on with it.
Probably best to shelve this one until better reference is available.
It's finished. The only thing left is this bit of nose art. I want to do "THE DEACON" because it is iconic (everyone has seen this footage a million times). But if that fails I can always switch it to "IS THIS TRIP NECESSARY?" which is a sister aircraft with plenty of photo documentation. "THE DEACON" is far more noteworthy an airplane but perhaps it is a wash. If we figure out what this nose art image is we'll be among the very few who knew/know.
I can't help but think Deacon Hively's P-47 nose art is somehow related. At least in terms of the pose except that his arms are not doing exactly the same thing in both images.
Clean image for you to work with. We clearly are seeing two totally different things. :D
(https://i.imgur.com/xSxDOvkh.jpg)
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Waltz41 on August 11, 2020, 09:52:13 AM
I got to watch a premier of the movie Apocalypse '45, which will be airing on the Discovery Channel on Labor Day weekend. I helped get a couple of our 506th vets interviewed for it. Anyways, it in, they show this color footage, but it is really restored, and might help us out a little bit more. I tried to take a couple screen shots, so I will send them to Vraciu to analyze. When it comes out, we might be able to visit it again and see what we come up with.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Waltz41 on August 11, 2020, 09:57:33 AM
It's finished. The only thing left is this bit of nose art. I want to do "THE DEACON" because it is iconic (everyone has seen this footage a million times). But if that fails I can always switch it to "IS THIS TRIP NECESSARY?" which is a sister aircraft with plenty of photo documentation. "THE DEACON" is far more noteworthy an airplane but perhaps it is a wash. If we figure out what this nose art image is we'll be among the very few who knew/know.
So I have never seen any photo that connects IS THIS TRIP NECESSARY to P-51 #44-63289. In fact, I have this aircraft down as a 72nd FS Mustang not a 531st, but without proof. Which might be why as this little profile suggests, it's not the same plane in the report as the photos show. Not to get away from the main thread, but does anyone else have anything on this one?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 11, 2020, 11:31:09 AM
That would be fabulous, Waltz. I hope you bay dig it out.
Does IS THIS TRIP NECESSARY? have a correct side number in the profile? 335 I think.
Lyric, that clear shot you show makes me see something else. It's amazing what different exposures reveal.
I would love to solve this mystery. We would be pioneers. Lol.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 11, 2020, 01:42:08 PM
That would be fabulous, Waltz. I hope you bay dig it out.
Does IS THIS TRIP NECESSARY? have a correct side number in the profile? 335 I think.
Lyric, that clear shot you show makes me see something else. It's amazing what different exposures reveal.
I would love to solve this mystery. We would be pioneers. Lol.
What strikes me as weird is the single black and white image is clearly from the colour film. Yet none of the colour footage is as clean as the black & white single frame.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 11, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
Who flew The Deacon? Here it is in a P-47 - same pilot?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 11, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
Ok, Howard D Hively flew the P-47 before he flew the 51. It's possible that the 47 Deacon image is the same one on his 51? Above is Howard and he did fly "The Deacon" P-51D. Since we cannot make out the graphic, it's possible it's the same on he had on his 47.
What strikes me as weird is the single black and white image is clearly from the colour film. Yet none of the colour footage is as clean as the black & white single frame.
Yeah, but the color throws my eyes into a completely different thought process.
Could they have filmed it in B&W *AND* color?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 11, 2020, 11:50:39 PM
Yeah, but the color throws my eyes into a completely different thought process.
Could they have filmed it in B&W *AND* color?
Doubt it. Have to wonder though if some one has used a computer to help clean up the film the critical past video is so dark compared to Youtube's version.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 12, 2020, 02:57:39 PM
V - do we have the tail number of the plane?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 12, 2020, 03:05:47 PM
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 13, 2020, 11:10:02 AM
Thanks V. Got some books to check now.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 13, 2020, 11:14:08 AM
63403 (47th FS, 15th FG, 7th AF) collided in midair with P-51D 44-63985 and crashed 10 mi off Mount Suribachi, Iwo Jima in Pacific Ocean Jul 27, 1945. Pilot killed.
63985 (531st FS, 21st FG) collided in midair with P-51D 44-63403) and crashed 8 mi NW of Iwo Jima Jul 27, 1945. Pilot was killed, aircraft lost.
Search continues.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 13, 2020, 11:16:57 AM
Yikes.
Thanks for your continued help. :salute
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 14, 2020, 12:47:55 AM
Just watched a rerun of BLACK SHEEP SQUADRON and this footage appears in the episode THE HAWK FLIES ON SUNDAY toward the last ten minutes.
I may dig out my DVD set and see if the footage is better than H&I aired. It showed more color than the stuff posted here so far.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Waltz41 on August 14, 2020, 03:47:37 PM
Best I could do (https://i.ibb.co/RTX9b70/20200806-151154.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jkCTfHM)
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 14, 2020, 04:14:25 PM
I think Waltz41's colour image is as good as its going to get at this point in time. So the question remains what is the nose art all about? I think your idea (was "The Deacon" a comic book?) that you found is the right one. Could the figure in the foreground be a news paper boy? Could just as well be "The Deacon" with a brown Bible in one hand and a page tore out of the Bible in the other? Who knows? I dont think its a demon on the nose art because in the comic book they dealt with actual demons.
As you can see in the above link they have all of "The Deacons" regular nemesis are listed and #1 is "Mr Death". Just a side note "The Deacon" was not even a deacon he was a gang member who donned the clothes.
So why do I think "Mr Death is in that image? The colour photo that Waltz41 provided has one thing that I can see that possibly matches the comic image of "Mr Death". So here is a shadowy image of "Mr Death" Prominent eyes rounded head and the ace of spades emblem on his forehead.
(https://i.imgur.com/cojs9Bzh.jpg)
Now on the nose art they have created a two tone blue figure to represent "Mr Death" this would give the image structure rather than a black blob. When you take the colour image right on its forehead there is a shape that looks to be in the right place for the ace of spades logo when you follow the image down between his eyes there is a splash of pink there like the handle of the spade.
Sadly Charles G Pfost the pilot of the P-51"The Deacon" died in his mid air collision so we most likely wont be able to find the answers there. His crew chief Emil Klein who is in the video of the plane taxing has passed away as well. I say finish the skin with the colour image as is. Maybe one day we may get what we want and resubmit it it with the updated information.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: whiteman on August 16, 2020, 10:53:24 AM
Just looking at it in color I think the blue cloud is just there so the white of the character stands out on the metal finish. It also looks like it might be smoking with a cigarette in its right hand and smoke trailing off. Or possibly holding some sort of object, but the poisoning is weird.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 16, 2020, 01:46:42 PM
Here’s what I found. “The Deacon & Mickey” were a comic series insert into the Cat-Man graphic novel series from the late 30-40’s. There were 32 novels - here https://graphitecomics.com/comic/GOLDEN-AGE-CLASSICS/Cat-Man-Comics/Cat-Man-Comics-32-volume-1-issue-32/2
Hazza! Now we need to figure out where that image came from in the 32 novels. The Deacon is usually the second comic in the book.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 16, 2020, 04:20:49 PM
Here’s what I found. “The Deacon & Mickey” were a comic series insert into the Cat-Man graphic novel series from the late 30-40’s. There were 32 novels - here https://graphitecomics.com/comic/GOLDEN-AGE-CLASSICS/Cat-Man-Comics/Cat-Man-Comics-32-volume-1-issue-32/2
Hazza! Now we need to figure out where that image came from in the 32 novels. The Deacon is usually the second comic in the book.
This is what I failed to find no matter what I did. :rock Good catch and low and behold a newspaper boy copy for "The Deacon"comic.
Well one thing is for certain there is no panel in any of the comic books that match the nose art so I would say the comic inspired the nose art work. Also "The Deacon" gets the job done in his comics no villain gets to come back at all in a second comic.
Looking at the colour image again anyone think its coincidental that a light coloured triangle shape appears under the left arm of the figure?
(https://i.imgur.com/iU5981yh.jpg)
Also #26 came out in November 1944 so #26B had to be shortly after because #27 was April 1945. So the pilot Charles G Pfost would have seen the "Mr Death" #26B comic as his death was in July 1945.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 17, 2020, 09:53:17 AM
What are the two white things above his head?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 17, 2020, 11:29:49 AM
Now we have a copy of the image of the newspaper boy...We’re both thinking the boy is the one on bottom the right with the crutch as Lyric pointed out above. And then Death behind in the background? As Lyric said, I'm guessing it was inspired by The Deacon. Yeah, I couldn't find 26B.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 17, 2020, 04:14:00 PM
I've found a different #26 that was on the other comic strip.
https://comicbookplus.com/?dlid=29853
This series has #26 and #26A... #26A has the Deacon in it, were the other link I provided does not. #26A has the tiger/human villan. So, the first one in ComicBookPlus calls it 26 and 26A, where comic.org call its 26A and 26B. So we now have 26B found. But no image that relates.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 17, 2020, 04:41:03 PM
The question now V, do you have enough to reproduce what you need for "The Deacon" P-51D?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on August 17, 2020, 04:54:09 PM
I question why some of you think the image is of the paperboy? Makes no sense if "The Deacon" is indeed a reference to the comic. That would be like someone naming their plane "Batman" and having a drawing of Alfred.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on August 17, 2020, 10:49:58 PM
Cause it's really all we got when trying to figure out what this figure is. After looking at all 32 comics of "The Deacon" from 1941-1946, it's the best representation we can get from the person who made the image on the aircraft. No other figure in the comics match better than Death and the newspaper boy.
No other character fits. What do you suggest D? A fresh set of eyes wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on August 18, 2020, 12:02:08 AM
That's just it, just because it's the "closest" match does not mean that it's actually close to matching.
The shape of the eyes and mouth openings in Death's mask don't match the apparent shapes of those features on the plane. And the figure on the plane seems to lack the red "spade" on the forehead.
This really is Rorschach test. It will look like whatever you want it to be.
The good news is that area on the AH P-51 is so small that if V just drew blobs in the right colors, it will look like a dead on match for the reference photo.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 18, 2020, 12:18:41 AM
I question why some of you think the image is of the paperboy? Makes no sense if "The Deacon" is indeed a reference to the comic. That would be like someone naming their plane "Batman" and having a drawing of Alfred.
Its all subjective and opinion based I think Mister fork summed it up best in his post. Just so you know when I first got involved with this plane I was pretty sure I was looking at a Woodp ecker.
See it?
(https://i.imgur.com/N57C8LTh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/q0GCv1uh.jpg)
Even thought I had a particular species as well.
A Red-bellied Woodp ecker
My attempt to imitate the nose art.
(https://i.imgur.com/YP1kUoeh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rTvO389h.jpg)
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 18, 2020, 12:25:35 AM
That's just it, just because it's the "closest" match does not mean that it's actually close to matching.
The shape of the eyes and mouth openings in Death's mask don't match the apparent shapes of those features on the plane. And the figure on the plane seems to lack the red "spade" on the forehead.
This really is Rorschach test. It will look like whatever you want it to be.
The good news is that area on the AH P-51 is so small that if V just drew blobs in the right colors, it will look like a dead on match for the reference photo.
The height of the average humans head is about 8-9 inches take the pilot sitting in the plane and just sizing it up to the nose art panel cant be that much bigger. So the figure in foregrounds head can't be much more than an inch in diameter. So how much detail will show up in the skin even if we had a close up of what we are looking at?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 18, 2020, 01:15:51 PM
That reminds me.... I need to resup the margarita hangar.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: LNG15 on August 18, 2020, 06:44:41 PM
By George I think I got it!
Thus is my plausible but believable theory. What if, that its "The Deacon" going after a Japanese character or propagandize version of a member of the Japanese War Cabinet like Tojo. The way I am reading into it is the deacon is about to punch Tojo as in deacon touches tojos left shoulder and Tojo is looking left and Deacon is about to hit him with his right hand or something along those lines. This is my theory.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on August 19, 2020, 07:27:42 PM
I'm open to anything at this point.
Anyone wanna throw this out on a Facebook group and see what people think it is?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on August 20, 2020, 12:30:52 AM
The first place they go to is the european The Deacon which is a custom-non-comic version of it. So, I'll correct them on this.
Thanks, Fork.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 02, 2020, 01:03:58 PM
Here's a preview. Is this enough detail to get by with or do I need to switch to "IS THIS TRIP NECESSARY?" Please note that all the black markings and nose art are currently placeholders. They are not finalized.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on September 02, 2020, 02:24:05 PM
It looks ok.
My main issue is the light colored cloud you have drawn around the figure. I don't see that at all in the reference. I see the figure painted on a panel that is entirely made of a light colored aluminium. Even the panel above with the "The Deacon" script is a similarly light color.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on September 02, 2020, 04:02:12 PM
"It looks ok"... phppt... it's a GREAT start V. And I do like Devil's suggestions even though he's a putz (:neener:)
:aok
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 02, 2020, 04:51:21 PM
My main issue is the light colored cloud you have drawn around the figure. I don't see that at all in the reference. I see the figure painted on a panel that is entirely made of a light colored aluminium. Even the panel above with the "The Deacon" script is a similarly light color.
There is definitely a white cloud.
There may even be white behind the lettering on DEACON.
EDIT IN: I do see what you are saying about the fastener indentations (very good eye on your part). The two on the forward part of that panel are pretty obvious in the first picture below. I'm leaving my original post up though. Maybe it isn't a cloud*, just a silver paint on the panel to serve as a base for the artwork or to cover up previous mistakes.
I have never doubted your judgment on photo interpretation (and far be it for me to do so now), but I've stared at ten thousand Mustang panels and lines over the years here...and I just don't see how that's anything other than paint. It's not just the cloud as it is also sloppily offset behind the black THE DEACON lettering. Maybe it's more a gray or silver than white though...
It's too distinct and exact to be random panel waves IMO. The "cloud" has some very obvious billows* that appear in every picture.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on September 02, 2020, 06:12:35 PM
You're probably on to something regarding the highlight behind "The Deacon" but I see it like a drop shadow - only lighter than the main text. But it's not the whole panel.
Also, there is this well known color photo of a P-51D where these specific panels (and some others) are significantly lighter than most panels on the airframe.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on September 03, 2020, 12:35:21 AM
Not a cloud its a thought bubble that they use in comic strips. It doubles as a canvas in this case so its a light white wash to make the nose art pop. Then there is an accent colour to the text of "The Deacon". Surprised how much detail you actually got out of that small of an area.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on September 03, 2020, 12:40:57 AM
I don't think the figure should have that green glow at the top.
You're going by this picture, but the color exposure is all out of whack. (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=400442.0;attach=33079)
The figure is much more crisp in these pictures. I'd go for this look.
Also, check the sizing of the "The Deacon" script. I think it should be a little larger and bolder (Both in color and character thickness). Your script does not come far enough rearward. The 'A' is just a bit forward of where it should be, but the 'N' is much too forward. This tells me there is a scaling issue at play. Thickening the letters another pixel or 2 while keeping the same spacing might give you a more accurate placement.
Also, perhaps the script is also Insignia Blue and not black. That could explain why it tends to look lighter than the black near it.
Not a cloud its a thought bubble that they use in comic strips. It doubles as a canvas in this case so its a light white wash to make the nose art pop.
I don't see this at all. I see just the plain panel in a light bare aluminium.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 03, 2020, 12:45:13 AM
I don't think the figure should have that green glow at the top.
You're going by this picture, but the color exposure is all out of whack.
So it's more blue....?
Quote
The figure is much more crisp in these pictures. I'd go for this look.
Okay.
Quote
Also, check the sizing of the "The Deacon" script. I think it should be a little larger and bolder (Both in color and character thickness). Your script does not come far enough rearward. The 'A' is just a bit forward of where it should be, but the 'N' is much too forward. This tells me there is a scaling issue at play. Thickening the letters another pixel or 2 while keeping the same spacing might give you a more accurate placement.
As I mentioned previously, all letters and numbers are placeholders (nose art, side numbers, etc.). I am still drawing the script for THE DEACON. See below for a rough draft of what I have so far.
Quote
Also, perhaps the script is also Insignia Blue and not black. That could explain why it tends to look lighter than the black near it.
Could be blue, could be black. Seems to match the script color in most places.
I like the blue version of the script.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: whiteman on September 03, 2020, 01:20:15 AM
Not familiar with techniques used to paint nose art, could those panels have been cleaned and base put down for it to be done? Would there be a reason besides painting on for those to be different color.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Devil 505 on September 03, 2020, 01:20:50 AM
So are the white shoes on the figure bare metal as well then? Because the panel to me seems to be the same colour.
I don't think so. Look at the B/W photo, the shoes are much lighter than the metal on that part of the panel. The panel looks darker there because it's showing shading as it curves under the nose. If the shoes were bare metal, they would be darker also.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 03, 2020, 08:18:48 AM
Not familiar with techniques used to paint nose art, could those panels have been cleaned and base put down for it to be done? Would there be a reason besides painting on for those to be different color.
I still can't help but think it is some kind of paint. The coloring changes abruptly on the aft portion of the panel beneath the exhaust stacks.
Was this a base for the nose art? Covering up something there already? A silver paint maybe?
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: lyric1 on September 05, 2020, 12:37:37 AM
Anyone know how to research the serial number information on a service man? I think this is the pilot of "The Deacon". Also is anyone a member of My Heritage? The image I believe is the same :cheesy: Pfost.
(https://i.imgur.com/aaCJ3Nch.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/u2TA7wGh.jpg)
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 06, 2020, 10:22:03 AM
It would be nice, Lyric, if we could find someone from the family with a photo. I think that's our only hope now.
Meanwhile, here's what I have. I don't think I can do any better with the figure. I may tweak his legs a little more to adjust his stance. Still no idea what those white things are over his head...
Hey V I think those white puffy pieces could be wings something akin of something from ancient or mythical times.
Good suggestion. I would never have considered that. Thanks.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on September 08, 2020, 04:20:42 PM
You know what I think? Prior to painting, the artist cleaned the side of the aircraft. Not many pilots did and what we're seeing is the cleaned aluminum panelling. That makes a lot more sense than everything else. And the deacon name - I've seen a couple of P-51D aircraft where that panel is lighter than the rest.
And lets face it, most of these planes were working in pretty grungy conditions - it's not like they had a aircraft wash station setup to give their birds a wash-down after a long week of flying in rain, taxiing in mud, taking off on grass strips etc. Some pilots however did keep clean birds, just not this one.
It's the only logical explanation. The pilots were working in a dirty environment
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on September 08, 2020, 04:25:50 PM
I've got it.
Prior to paining, they don't actually paint on the aircraft, the artist/painter removed the panels and work on them. And they would of cleaned them off prior to painting - or used NEW panels and then just put them back on. Hence the different colouring look.
And by looking at the art, they were isolated to individual panels. So, it could be new or cleaned.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 08, 2020, 07:51:28 PM
You might be onto something, although my understanding is the VLR groups went above and beyond to keep their airplanes clean. Squeezing every last drop of gas out of these birds was a priority.
Still, it's a plausible explanation.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Mister Fork on September 09, 2020, 09:59:53 AM
I've just investigated a bunch of P-51D pictures, the top panel with "The Deacon" is normally lighter and some also have the lighter side panel with the larger graphic. So, it's chalk it up to either a new panel or just regular different metal colour for that panel.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2020, 10:34:31 AM
I've just investigated a bunch of P-51D pictures, the top panel with "The Deacon" is normally lighter and some also have the lighter side panel with the larger graphic. So, it's chalk it up to either a new panel or just regular different metal colour for that panel.
I think those panels just vary a lot. A lighter panel is not uncommon. I believe I have it nailed down. I'll post it tonight. I'm still fighting with the normal map.
Title: Re: Research Assistance Requested - P-51D "The Deacon" - 21st FG (Iwo Jima)
Post by: Vraciu on September 09, 2020, 04:26:13 PM