Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: Vraciu on September 18, 2020, 01:59:01 PM
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Thanks to Lyric1 for digging this one up.
Need help with the color green *AND* any evidence that shows it was carrying a painted spinner at the same time it wore the diagonal stripes. S/N is 44-63483 and was at one time marked as "San Antonio Rose" I believe.
https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/p51-45fs-jpg.100236/
(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/p51-45fs-jpg.100236/)
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Does this help? Modelers are way nuttier than we are on accuracy.
(http://www.jumbliesmodels.com/images/products/medium/1438775076-20529900.jpg)
(https://sep.yimg.com/ca/I/seagifts_2270_251892913)
See what else I can find.
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It never hurts.
I'll take whatever we can find. All I need to finish this one is a color consensus.
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This one actually matches the photo best. (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/345/32433627406_82181c1661_c.jpg)
Did I mention that modelers are nutters when it comes to this accuracy? I got this from a forum - man, they makes us look like a quiet Sunday church study group.
V - a LOT of details in here - asking the same questions you did - what color green did they use on Stinger VII. https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/stinger-vii-green-t509557.html (https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/stinger-vii-green-t509557.html). They talk a lot about the color green used, what colors they actually hand to come up with colors for the model above.
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I have a book that has a profile of Stinger VII at home, I'll take a look when i get there.
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Thanks, guys.
Fork, I read that thread earlier. I didn't walk away confident in any particular shade.
I am also not convinced the plane had a green spinner at the same time as the diagonal bands since the only photos I have always show one without the other. :headscratch:
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Is the Pony with the yellow spinner from a different squadron in the same group?
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Yeah, after reading that thread, it might be that you came to the same conclusion. It does make sense that the only two color greens they had were the interior cockpit paint and the green for the tanks. I wll point out that from the B&W photo the wing green looks bright.
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Yeah, after reading that thread, it might be that you came to the same conclusion. It does make sense that the only two color greens they had were the interior cockpit paint and the green for the tanks. I wll point out that from the B&W photo the wing green looks bright.
Yeah... They don't make this easy on us!
Is the Pony with the yellow spinner from a different squadron in the same group?
The only thing I've seen of Jeanne VIII depicts it with yellow trim, but it is a model and could be in error.
I haven't seen any 45th FS airplanes with anything other than NMF, Green, or Green with Black spinners...
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The only thing I've seen of Jeanne VIII depicts it with yellow trim, but it is a model and could be in error.
I haven't seen any 45th FS airplanes with anything other than NMF, Green, or Green with Black spinners...
That does not answer my question.
If Jeanne VIII is from a different squadron in the same group, you can infer that at the time the photo was taken that a 45th FS plane had green spinners.
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That does not answer my question.
If Jeanne VIII is from a different squadron in the same group, you can infer that at the time the photo was taken that a 45th FS plane had green spinners.
I didn't finish writing my answer apparently. Got distracted. Yellow trim is not 45th FS.
I can't find anything that explicitly states what squadron it is, however, the squadron emblem shown is not from the 45th. One source shows that makes it the 78th FS.
Also, I believe each squadron, generally speaking, used a single series of numbers, 100s, 200s, 300s, etc. This being a 100 series combined with the squadron logo makes it 78th FS whereas the 45th used two-digit numbers.
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Also, the problem with assuming a painted spinner is the timeline.
The paint scheme of the 45th evolved over time.
As for STINGER VII specifically, it also evolved. In photos with the painted spinner the only things painted green were the wing tips, horizontal stab tips, and vertical fin.
When the diagonal wing markings are seen with this plane the spinner is NMF.
I do have a lineup of Mustangs with painted spinners and diagonal wing bands, but they also have the squadron emblem on the cowling, something not seen on STINGER VII.
https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/p-51-mustang/P-51D_San_Antonio_Rose_1lt_Douglas_Reese_45th_FS_15th_FG_Iwo_Jima.jpg
(https://www.worldwarphotos.info/wp-content/gallery/usa/aircrafts/p-51-mustang/P-51D_San_Antonio_Rose_1lt_Douglas_Reese_45th_FS_15th_FG_Iwo_Jima.jpg)
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Can you nail down any date for any of these variations in markings?
The models show 10 kills. Did "Stinger's" pilot get any kills with this plane? If so, when and did any of those kills make his 10th?
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Found the smoking gun.
(https://www.7thfighter.com/album/var/albums/Iwo-Jima-Post-Invasion-Ops/342-FH-3A-47119-68017AC_todd_moore_45th_fs_p_67_stinger_vii_463483_iwo.JPG?m=1389673228)
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This one and another taken the same day showing him walking away from the plane both lack spinner paint. So the question still remaining is which came first, the chicken or the egg?
I read that the markings were "simplified" by the squadron. When? What does that mean?
I'm inclined to leave the spinner NMF, but a timeline of photos would sure help. We know it had a painted spinner when there were no diagonal wing stripes. We know at some point it had a NMF spinner WITH wing stripes.
Counting kill flags has not lit any bulbs yet. I'll look again tomorrow to see if I missed something. He scored at least three victories with the 45th (on one day). He also scored flying P-40s before that.
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Found the smoking gun.
(https://www.7thfighter.com/album/var/albums/Iwo-Jima-Post-Invasion-Ops/342-FH-3A-47119-68017AC_todd_moore_45th_fs_p_67_stinger_vii_463483_iwo.JPG?m=1389673228)
Here is the images that we have.
Painted spinner solid colour no wing stripes.
(https://i.imgur.com/qDpEiMCh.jpg)
Painted solid spinner no wing stripes.
(https://i.imgur.com/EoXaNnTh.jpg)
No wing stripes bare metal spinner.
(https://i.imgur.com/N9oWnlzh.jpg)
Wing stripes bare metal spinner.
(https://i.imgur.com/3JXn9YWh.jpg)
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Here is the images that we have.
Painted spinner solid colour no wing stripes.
(https://i.imgur.com/qDpEiMCh.jpg)
Painted solid spinner no wing stripes.
(https://i.imgur.com/EoXaNnTh.jpg)
No wing stripes bare metal spinner.
(https://i.imgur.com/N9oWnlzh.jpg)
Wing stripes bare metal spinner.
(https://i.imgur.com/3JXn9YWh.jpg)
Found the answer. :rock
Two paint schemes for the same plane early version and a late version.
Wing stripes were early scheme no wing stripes late scheme.
We had it arse backwards. :bhead
https://arcforums.com/Gal14/13301-13400/gal13345-P-51-Rossmann/00.shtm
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That jives with the commentary about the markings being simplified later.
Why no squadron badge? Was it deleted?
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Since we have clear evidence of diagonal wing stripes with no spinner paint I'm going with that.
How many victory flags would he have had? Does that photo have a date?
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He had 12 total at wars end. The book may have that answer with dates. One I know was in a P-40.
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It looks like the spinner was the LAST thing to get paint, and this would have been after the diagonal wing stripes were deleted.
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Found this narrative.
I think I can safely put nine victory flags on the old paint scheme at least.
https://www.7thfighter.com/78th/moore/todd.htm
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Ok....sorry I'm late to the party.
So are you looking to do Moore's Stinger (45th FS)?? or VanDeHey's Jeanie (78th FS)?
Both units belonged to the 15th FG and arrived on Iwo in March 1945. They started off with more colorful markings, the 45th with the green wing and tail bands, the 78th with yellow and black wing and tail stripes. At some point (most sometime in August) they switched to simpler markings. Just green wing/tail tips for 45th, and yellow wing/tail tips for 78th).
Moore's Stinger VII, serial number 44-63843, was originally called Tom Cat, flown Major 'Buck' Snipes, who was a veteran pilot for the 45th flying P-40N's in the central pacific in 1943-44. Snipes had a victory in the very first VLR mission on April 7, 1945. He not too long after was sent back to the states, and Moore took over his P-51, and renamed it for his series of aircraft, Stinger. Moore was the leading VLR ace, who had 11 victories (plus one in the central pacific).
What questions do you guys have on them? As far as the green goes, I can tell you that no one has a definitive shade down....I have seen some to say it's more of an apple green, so a bit on the lighter side, but then so many profiles go with a brighter green.
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I didn't finish writing my answer apparently. Got distracted. Yellow trim is not 45th FS.
I can't find anything that explicitly states what squadron it is, however, the squadron emblem shown is not from the 45th. One source shows that makes it the 78th FS.
Also, I believe each squadron, generally speaking, used a single series of numbers, 100s, 200s, 300s, etc. This being a 100 series combined with the squadron logo makes it 78th FS whereas the 45th used two-digit numbers.
15th Fighter Group P-51's consisted of the 45th FS (#50-99), 47th FS (#150-199), and 78th FS (#100-149)
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Ah, there you go. Good stuff. Thank you.
We're doing Stinger VII with the diagonal wing markings. I guess at this point I'm down to number of victory flags and spinner color. I'm guessing a bare metal spinner in any case.
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Moore's Stinger VII, serial number 44-63843, was originally called Tom Cat, flown Major 'Buck' Snipes, who was a veteran pilot for the 45th flying P-40N's in the central pacific in 1943-44. Snipes had a victory in the very first VLR mission on April 7, 1945.
Tom Kat, yes, that's it. I was going by memory and had SAR on the brain. Apparently that airplane's S/N is not fully known...
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I have San Antonio Rose (#77) as 44-63438 in my notes.
Yeah, I would go metal spinner if you are doing Stinger VII with the wing stripes. TomKat had the green/black spinner to start. My guess is a propeller change at some point and got a unpainted spinner. Then Moore took it over to Stinger.....and eventually got the simplified markings.
For victories, just depends on when you want the aircraft to be 'represented'. Moore had kills in 1945: with the 78th FS - April 7 (2), April 22 (1), May 25 (2). With the 45th FS - May 29 (3), June 7 (1), June 10 (1), August 10 (1). His other kill came on Jan 26, 1944 in a P-40N.
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I have San Antonio Rose (#77) as 44-63438 in my notes.
Yeah, I would go metal spinner if you are doing Stinger VII with the wing stripes. TomKat had the green/black spinner to start. My guess is a propeller change at some point and got a unpainted spinner. Then Moore took it over to Stinger.....and eventually got the simplified markings.
For victories, just depends on when you want the aircraft to be 'represented'. Moore had kills in 1945: with the 78th FS - April 7 (2), April 22 (1), May 25 (2). With the 45th FS - May 29 (3), June 7 (1), June 10 (1), August 10 (1). His other kill came on Jan 26, 1944 in a P-40N.
This explains the potential confusion as the last three numbers are the same, just transposed.
I guess I should paint it with the max total of victories it would have had before the wing stripes were removed. Does the photo shoot of him off the right side of the nose have a date stamp?
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Unfortunately no. I just checked as it's an official USAAF photo. No date :-(
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Thanks, man.
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Here you go. This is the best screenshot I can do for now, being limited to a laptop. I will post a formal thread for the skin when I get back to the USA. Thanks everyone for the help on this one.
:salute
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=401217.0;attach=33289)
(https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=401217.0;attach=33291)
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Is this with the metal shade lightened at all?
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It's lighter than what I sent you.
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Ok cool.
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This begs the question, what is the biggest influence on the visibility of the metal detail, the shade of gray used or the darkness of one of the spec maps?
The lighter grays tend to wash out pretty badly in light, but the darker grays look too dark in shadow/indirect light. :headscratch: