Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Mano on December 03, 2020, 01:44:02 PM
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In the coming decade you may see a large percentage of car dealers go out of business because of the emergence of the electric vehicle. Have you ever paid what you thought was an
insanely overpriced bill from a car dealer? Ever notice how they never fix anything, but just replace the entire part with another expensive OEM part from the same car company? You wonder why that part broke in the first place. I am sure everyone has a story to tell about dealers in general. License to steal? Maybe. Always ask for your old parts so you can inspect them. My local car dealer sold me an extended warranty that was supposed to be equal to the manufacturer's warranty. They did not honor anything and claimed almost everything was exempt from their warranty. I will never buy another so called bumper to bumper warranty ever again.
Electric vehicles require very little maintenance. You still have to replace windshield wipers, washer fluid, cabin air filters, tires and a few other items. Brakes do not need service as
often because the regenerative braking decreases the use of brakes so the pads and brake disks last much longer. Maintenance costs are considerably lower. Updates to the computer are done about once a month and it is through my home WiFi. Updates usually take less than 10 minutes. There is no need to go into some expensive dealer to do any updates.
If you follow the instructions on battery charging you can get 10 years or more out of your battery. The battery technology continues to evolve for the better and the range increases with each new generation of battery. The weight of the battery is going down, energy density is going up, and the cost of each battery is going down as manufacturing continues. The car batteries are recycled and will not go into any local land fill because all the battery components can be used again.
ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles have so many moving parts there is always something that inherently breaks and needs a replacement. I have an EV and a Diesel truck and I expect at least 500,000 miles out of the diesel engine before the engine has to be taken out and rebuilt. My EV should go 1 million miles or more before I have to have anything done
to the two electric motors. After 2 and 1/2 years I have not had to do anything to my EV, except plug it in when the battery gets low. I expect to go many more years before I have to do any maintenance. As for my diesel truck, I take it in routinely for expensive maintenance like Fuel Filter Replacement, Oil Filter and Oil change, Air Filter, Lubrication, Smog Check ( I live in CA), Transmission Fluid replacement, and other items. The diesel vehicle is expensive to maintain.
You cannot stop what is coming. The repairs at a dealership are their bread and butter. Take that away and you will see them disappear altogether. I am not saying this is a good thing or a bad thing, simply they will be gone in the near future much like Block Buster Video.
If Legacy Car Makers do not start doing R and D on batteries they will be left behind and disappear like the dealers.
:salute
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Sounds like someone needs to put the koolaid down
Car type does not matter they will always rip you off and if you think they will be so maintanence free as to close dealerships...please put down the koolaid lol
Eagler
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Right on the money. Here's more about the issue dealers have coming up (timestamped link):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVLaZBcsGzI&t=636
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If you buy an electric car right now, part of it is paid by all of us. In the future I hope that will not happen. If you actually paid for all of your electric car, you would not buy one.
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If you buy an electric car right now, part of it is paid by all of us. In the future I hope that will not happen. If you actually paid for all of your electric car, you would not buy one.
Exactly... :salute
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If you buy an electric car right now, part of it is paid by all of us. In the future I hope that will not happen. If you actually paid for all of your electric car, you would not buy one.
I guess you did not get the memo, again. The $7500 Federal Tax Credit ended 12/31/2018 for Tesla because they sold 200,000 vehicles. Some states offer a rebate or credit but it is not very much. Other EV makers will no longer receive the rebate if they eventually sell 200,000 vehicles. I don't think you should buy an EV. It is way to complicated. :D :D :D :D :D :rofl
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If you buy an electric car right now, part of it is paid by all of us. In the future I hope that will not happen. If you actually paid for all of your electric car, you would not buy one.
So true, a few countries are now thinking about throwing RUC (Road User Charges) in lieu of fuel taxes at EVs.
I'm also waiting for the when EV usage reaches critical mass such that we will see the problems associated with them. That means the current low use of EVs hides problems. Such as battery fires in accidents. Right now it's one or two incidents, I expect as their use increases that will change.
In NZ I hope we get behind hydrogen, we have lots of "clean" energy generation and lots of water. I'd like to see us doing hydrogen tech research, but unfortunately our government thinks planting trees and destroying our agricultural industry is a better idea.
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Mano.
Is this going to be another thread where you spout all your suppositions as fact?
This forum, is actually getting very comical. There are so many "experts" who couldn't explain their way out of a mason jar without a youtube video.
Then again, driving home drunk, from the legion, makes one an expert at many things...........that alone provides comedic moments.
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I guess you did not get the memo, again. The $7500 Federal Tax Credit ended 12/31/2018 for Tesla because they sold 200,000 vehicles. Some states offer a rebate or credit but it is not very much. Other EV makers will no longer receive the rebate if they eventually sell 200,000 vehicles. I don't think you should buy an EV. It is way to complicated. :D :D :D :D :D :rofl
That was just direct for the consumer. Small change. The money I refer to is to the manufacturer to keep your price down.
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So true, a few countries are now thinking about throwing RUC (Road User Charges) in lieu of fuel taxes at EVs.
I'm also waiting for the when EV usage reaches critical mass such that we will see the problems associated with them. That means the current low use of EVs hides problems. Such as battery fires in accidents. Right now it's one or two incidents, I expect as their use increases that will change.
In NZ I hope we get behind hydrogen, we have lots of "clean" energy generation and lots of water. I'd like to see us doing hydrogen tech research, but unfortunately our government thinks planting trees and destroying our agricultural industry is a better idea.
yep, you will have to report your odometer readings
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Mano.
Is this going to be another thread where you spout all your suppositions as fact?
This forum, is actually getting very comical. There are so many "experts" who couldn't explain their way out of a mason jar without a youtube video.
Then again, driving home drunk, from the legion, makes one an expert at many things...........that alone provides comedic moments.
what did I say that was absolute fact?
Just opinions.
if you would kindly post a source on what you disagree with, it would be appreciated. If you believe that car dealers will thrive and stay in business indefinitely leave a link
or explain why you feel they are not doomed.
:salute
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Nice try at deflection mano...........
So far I have neither agreed or disagreed with any of your "suppositions". In the last thread, that you ran rampant as the supposed expert, you made a number of comments that were not true. I asked about your qualifications in that thread, but you ignored the post.
So I ask again, is this going to be another thread where you spout all your suppositions as fact?
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Do you disagree because you work at a car dealer?
Just curious.
:salute
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Did you make this post after a bad experience with a car dealer?
Just as curious.
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A considerable amount “Green energy” R&D has taken place by nations (companies in them) that haven’t had to pay to support a large military.
Germany is a good example. They’ve had the fortune to be able to do so much with wind and solar and invest into alternative energy, but how’d they get the $ to be able to do that? US bases there, NATO etc providing national defense for them...no navy, almost no AF until this century. Yet at the same time they haven’t had to invest in military R&D they have heavily criticized other nations, one in particular for not doing enough in “green energy, eco friendly” etc.
Has been time for this to change, and it was, a recent event looks like back to the same ‘ole and endless wars :frown:
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Did you make this post after a bad experience with a car dealer?
Just as curious.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Coogan
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Did you make this post after a bad experience with a car dealer?
Just as curious.
Re: Car dealers going out of business?
You obviously don't want to state your opinion. If I troll one of your threads you have every right to report me to HiTech. That is why we have Rule 4.
I honestly do not remember you posting on one of my threads or at the very least did not see it.
I have had good experiences and bad experiences at the local dealer. I bought 5 or 6 vehicles in a row from the same dealer.
When I asked to test drive their first EV the salesman tried to get me to look at one of the other vehicles. My diesel truck is 18 years old but still runs like
new and the paint looks like when I bought it new in 2002. I have had to go to other mechanics for repairs or maintenance because the dealer does not have veteran mechanics
that know diesels. The 7.3L Ford Powerstroke is a great engine (made by International) and should last a long time, as long as I take for service to a veteran independent mechanic.
Every post in the forum is an opinion. If you have a problem with an opinion simply site your source or state your reason why you disagree with Car Dealers going out of business?
:salute
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I have absolutely no problem with anyone stating their "opinion". But when that individual makes statements that are blatantly false, I see a need to question such statements. No matter how uncomfortable questioning may be for all parties.
I have yet to "troll" a thread, but I did ask if your intention is to once again spout suppositions. You have yet to answer that question and you attempt to "troll".
Enjoy this thread. Your non-answer is answer enough.
While this thread could be enlightening for many, I believe it will most likely follow your previous format in stating falsehoods and "opinions" about something I doubt you know very much about...
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.......then why are dealers going to continue to thrive? Simple question.
You obviously know, then enlighten us. Why side step everything?
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i believe in ca only ev will be sold starting in 2035. even then perhaps 5 years before most will be gasoline or hybrid.
the millions of cars on the road aren't gonna disappear overnight. so maybe somewhere around 2040 dealers will be affected. i guess we are talking mechanics shops.
semp
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I have absolutely no problem with anyone stating their "opinion". But when that individual makes statements that are blatantly false, I see a need to question such statements. No matter how uncomfortable questioning may be for all parties.
...
While this thread could be enlightening for many, I believe it will most likely follow your previous format in stating falsehoods and "opinions" about something I doubt you know very much about...
Are you at least going to inform us which statements you think are blatantly false?
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Who will pay for the charging stations needed around the country for the EV's?
Where does that power come from and how does that source not pollute?
EV maybe the way of the future but it is not an oil industry killer many are hoping it to be..but those are the same folks who think oil is not needed for all plastic products and things like car tires..
Like most green projects it would not survive without tax dollar assistance..
Wait until you see how the new gang in DC will piss away your money on immature "green" projects..it will be 2009 all over again
Eagler
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Isn't the petro industry subsidized by the Feds?
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Isn't the petro industry subsidized by the Feds?
About $649 billion worth.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesellsmoor/2019/06/15/united-states-spend-ten-times-more-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-than-education/?sh=1b9581844735
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It is vidal to national defense...solar panels and windmills are not
Not to mention oil is in the majority of the products we use daily
Eagler
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Re: Car dealers going out of business?
You obviously don't want to state your opinion. If I troll one of your threads you have every right to report me to HiTech. That is why we have Rule 4.
I honestly do not remember you posting on one of my threads or at the very least did not see it.
I have had good experiences and bad experiences at the local dealer. I bought 5 or 6 vehicles in a row from the same dealer.
When I asked to test drive their first EV the salesman tried to get me to look at one of the other vehicles. My diesel truck is 18 years old but still runs like
new and the paint looks like when I bought it new in 2002. I have had to go to other mechanics for repairs or maintenance because the dealer does not have veteran mechanics
that know diesels. The 7.3L Ford Powerstroke is a great engine (made by International) and should last a long time, as long as I take for service to a veteran independent mechanic.
Every post in the forum is an opinion. If you have a problem with an opinion simply site your source or state your reason why you disagree with Car Dealers going out of business?
:salute
Lighten up Francis. I thought his post was funny too. You stated an opinion. From that we get that you had some bad experiences. Not everyone is in that boat.
I will agree that there is a shortage of diesel mechanics and dealerships suffer from that as well as any shop in the country.
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150 Cadillac Dealers Accept Buyouts Rather Than Tool Up for Electric Models
GM luxury brand dealers balk at estimated $200,000 in upgrade costs for electric vehicles.
Almost 20% of Cadillac dealers have opted to accept buyouts from General Motors Company (GM) rather than pay for costly upgrades needed to service and sell electric vehicles, according to a published report Friday.
The move will reduce Cadillac’s U.S. dealership count by about 150 outlets, The Wall Street Journal reported, citing people familiar with the plans.
Dealerships were offered from $300,000 to more than $1 million to exit the brand if they were unwilling to spend about $200,000 on upgrades for charging stations and repair tools, according to the report.
Most of the dealers giving up the Cadillac brand sell other GM lines such as Chevrolet and GMC, according to the report.
Electric vehicles still account for only 2% of U.S. vehicle sales, according to the report.
But shares of companies making and selling electric cars and trucks have taken off this year, led by Tesla Inc.’s (TSLA) extraordinary stock performance. Tesla’s market cap now exceeds that of most traditional U.S. automakers combined. And the company’s shares are being added to the S&P 500 index on Dec. 21. Other electric-only competitors, including Nio (NIO) , have seen their stocks surge as well.
Tesla sells its cars online without a dedicated dealer network. And because electric cars have fewer parts, the profitable parts-and-service units of many dealerships face challenges as more electric vehicles hit the road.
GM’s first electric vehicle isn’t expected until 2022.
Shares of GM rose 1 cent to $44.39 in after-hours trading Friday. Tesla shares fell 4 cents to $599 in after-hours trading.
Here is the link
https://apple.news/Aqud25sQYTkeQyFNAlYn8kA
Tesla sells online and there is a bigger profit margin selling direct. GM is starting to figure it out. They will sell their EV online. I read another report they are offering Cadillac dealers up to $500,000 per franchise.
The link is not fact, but opinion. Porsche came out with the Taycan and immediately saw their ICE sales drop by almost half. Porsche makes about 230,000 cars per year and makes approx $19,000 per vehicle. Covid has had a big impact on all sales of new vehicles.
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I guess you did not get the memo, again. The $7500 Federal Tax Credit ended 12/31/2018 for Tesla
That is only one slice of a larger pie.
There are things like $4.9 billion in government support for Tesla, SolarCity and SpaceX.
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html#page=1
Lots of organizations with croniest connections get low- or no-interest loans, grants, tax rebates, low-cost leasing of land, helpful regulatory treatment that impedes competitors, lucrative or exclusive government sales deals, etc.
There is a large and thriving ecosystem evolved around this dynamic.
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That is only one slice of a larger pie.
There are things like $4.9 billion in government support for Tesla, SolarCity and SpaceX.
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html#page=1
Lots of organizations with croniest connections get low- or no-interest loans, grants, tax rebates, low-cost leasing of land, helpful regulatory treatment that impedes competitors, lucrative or exclusive government sales deals, etc.
There is a large and thriving ecosystem evolved around this dynamic.
That article is from 2015. Lets see what happened since then.
Lets see, the Feds got their money back with interest, for the loan they gave Tesla. And the Nevada deal was so bad no one will likely ever let Tesla build a factory in their state again... oh wait, China, Germany and Texas all did. Maybe this is all wrong, maybe the truth is that a little government help to a business worth 10 billion USD in 2015 can turn it into a company with a market cap of 500 billion in late 2020.
The reality is that Nevada got a stellar deal on getting Tesla to build, and will reap many times the 1.3 billion in tax incentives.
The state commissioned an analysis estimating the economic impact from the project at $100 billion over two decades, but some economists called that figure deeply flawed.
Yeah, deeply flawed because Tesla will have a much greater impact than 100 billion for Nevada.
Any state that can spend 1.3 B in incentives for 100B+ of economic benefits is probably doing it very very right. Any government that can spend 4.9B to help a company succeed to a market cap of 500B in five years did something very very right.
If you're going to link an article on Tesla to supposedly damn them for taking government money, how about something that compares them to other automakers, discusses the benefits instead of just "taking government money", and is something, I dunno from 2020 maybe? Even 2019 would have been ten times as relevant as that old fossil of an article.
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Sweet!
(https://electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2020/11/Zelectric-Tesla-pwoered-VW-bus-2.jpg?quality=82&strip=all)
https://electrek.co/2020/11/28/tesla-powered-classic-1966-vw-microbus-delivers-electric-van-life-win/
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It is vidal to national defense...solar panels and windmills are not
Not to mention oil is in the majority of the products we use daily
Eagler
Just a small correction....
Solar panels are extremely vital to our nation's defense (think about the military satellites, among other things the military uses them for)
Just saying
TC
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150 Cadillac Dealers Accept Buyouts Rather Than Tool Up for Electric Models
GM luxury brand dealers balk at estimated $200,000 in upgrade costs for electric vehicles.
Almost 20% of Cadillac dealers have opted to accept buyouts from General Motors Company (GM) rather than pay for costly upgrades needed to service and sell electric vehicles, according to a published report Friday.
The move will reduce Cadillac’s U.S. dealership count by about 150 outlets, The Wall Street Journal reported, citing people familiar with the plans.
Dealerships were offered from $300,000 to more than $1 million to exit the brand if they were unwilling to spend about $200,000 on upgrades for charging stations and repair tools, according to the report.
Most of the dealers giving up the Cadillac brand sell other GM lines such as Chevrolet and GMC, according to the report.
Electric vehicles still account for only 2% of U.S. vehicle sales, according to the report.
But shares of companies making and selling electric cars and trucks have taken off this year, led by Tesla Inc.’s (TSLA) extraordinary stock performance. Tesla’s market cap now exceeds that of most traditional U.S. automakers combined. And the company’s shares are being added to the S&P 500 index on Dec. 21. Other electric-only competitors, including Nio (NIO) , have seen their stocks surge as well.
Tesla sells its cars online without a dedicated dealer network. And because electric cars have fewer parts, the profitable parts-and-service units of many dealerships face challenges as more electric vehicles hit the road.
GM’s first electric vehicle isn’t expected until 2022.
Shares of GM rose 1 cent to $44.39 in after-hours trading Friday. Tesla shares fell 4 cents to $599 in after-hours trading.
Here is the link
https://apple.news/Aqud25sQYTkeQyFNAlYn8kA
Tesla sells online and there is a bigger profit margin selling direct. GM is starting to figure it out. They will sell their EV online. I read another report they are offering Cadillac dealers up to $500,000 per franchise.
The link is not fact, but opinion. Porsche came out with the Taycan and immediately saw their ICE sales drop by almost half. Porsche makes about 230,000 cars per year and makes approx $19,000 per vehicle. Covid has had a big impact on all sales of new vehicles.
So those with electric vehicles will face challenges finding repair when needed. Like anything electric with computers and such, it will need servicing.
Of course it may not as if it is driving for you, it will probably kill you.
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So those with electric vehicles will face challenges finding repair when needed. Like anything electric with computers and such, it will need servicing.
Of course it may not as if it is driving for you, it will probably kill you.
The change from the horse and buggy/wagon repeats itself a 100 years later. Was hard to find a place that could fix my unrealizable noisy smoke belching monster. Had to watch how far I travelled as the smelly flammable liquid might not be available.
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So those with electric vehicles will face challenges finding repair when needed. Like anything electric with computers and such, it will need servicing.
Of course it may not as if it is driving for you, it will probably kill you.
Plenty of future empty lots today filled by petroleum dispensaries can be filled by EV repair specialists and charging stations.
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That article is from 2015. Lets see what happened since then.
Yep, since then lots of that is paid back. Although there is more government largess since then, such as $billions in carbon credits, more sweetheart land and tax deals, etc.
If your government cronies give you billions of dollars, is it no longer cronyism as long as it works out in the end?
If you're going to link an article on Tesla to supposedly damn them for taking government money
I don't think Tesla is bad for getting government money.
My info was because you said "I guess you did not get the memo, again. The $7500 Federal Tax Credit ended 12/31/2018 for Tesla" -- implying that was the only government money source, which is not the case.
Government makes itself available to hand out huge money. When it does that, an ecosystem will grow around it. It isn't bad of the ecosystem -- any more than it is bad of water to flow downhill. Lots of companies go after government money. I've been part of companies and efforts that got government money. I don't feel bad about it.
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The change from the horse and buggy/wagon repeats itself a 100 years later. Was hard to find a place that could fix my unrealizable noisy smoke belching monster. Had to watch how far I travelled as the smelly flammable liquid might not be available.
This! And there were plenty of EV back in the day,trolley cars were first pulled by horse,then guess what they used.
My next car is going to be a PHEV,only cause I suffer from range envy,otherwise I'd go pure EV. Most my driving is under 30 mile per day,the PHEV I'm looking at gets about 45 miles on just the battery so I'd rarely have to use fuel.I suppose I'd have to burn some of it as it tends to go stale after a few weeks/months.
:salute
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This! And there were plenty of EV back in the day,trolley cars were first pulled by horse,then guess what they used.
So what were the trolleys pulled by next? Lets see if you can explain the difference between that equipment and what is the crux of this conversation....or if you will bother to understand the difference.
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So what were the trolleys pulled by next? Lets see if you can explain the difference between that equipment and what is the crux of this conversation....or if you will bother to understand the difference.
As far as I know they still use electricity.There were plenty of other electric vehicles back then and they use old school lead acid batteries.
As for dealerships going out of business,I doubt that,they may evolve but I doubt they will disappear completely.
Does that answer your aggressive question?
https://www.energy.gov/articles/history-electric-car
:salute
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Or if you accept wiki....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_electric_vehicle
:salute
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(https://i.imgur.com/LUlj1zW.png)
Last week, we found ourselves thoroughly tickled by the Fiat 500 Jolly ‘Spiaggina’ Icon-e. A pocket-sized ray of electric-powered sunshine, the car is a special commission by Hertz and has been built by ‘concept-to-product trendmakers’ Garage Italia. It makes use of the body, styling and charm of the 1957 model, but sees the old engine replaced with an electric powertrain — allowing you to cruise to the beach with both zero emissions and a clean conscience.
But this small-scale throwback isn’t the only electric buzz running through the classic car community. Around the world, countless companies are bringing old motors back to the road in an eco-friendly way. It’s chiefly a reaction to environmental crackdowns, but the modern consumer’s ardent love of vintage styling and throwback designs has also helped to cultivate a strong customer base.
https://www.thegentlemansjournal.com/article/electric-conversion-companies-classic-car-jaguar-aston-charge/
If I win that elusive lotto .....
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As far as I know they still use electricity.There were plenty of other electric vehicles back then and they use old school lead acid batteries.
Yes they used electricity.
Just so your defensive nature is not further offended, here is my question again,So what were the trolleys pulled by next?
What you did not address is that trolleys were powered, not by batteries, but by lines run either overhead the trolleys, or thru voltage on the rails themselves. You tried to use a half truth to make your point. Some would know the difference and understand, others would have no clue and take your comment as meaningful on its face.
Does that answer your aggressive question?
Ah grasshopper, I really couldn't care less if your feelings are hurt. But if you feel better trying to be offended, go for it.
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Who will pay for the charging stations needed around the country for the EV's?
Exactly, and where does the fuel come from that powers the plants that supply the electricity... the world is a long way
from those inexpensive sources and if you bring up fusion plants... don't bother, they are a long way off despite
all the news reports
:salute
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Wejj, whadyaknow?
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21366373/wind-solar-power-electricity-doubled-paris-climate-change-agreement
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Yes they used electricity.
Just so your defensive nature is not further offended, here is my question again,
What you did not address is that trolleys were powered, not by batteries, but by lines run either overhead the trolleys, or thru voltage on the rails themselves. You tried to use a half truth to make your point. Some would know the difference and understand, others would have no clue and take your comment as meaningful on its face.
Ah grasshopper, I really couldn't care less if your feelings are hurt. But if you feel better trying to be offended, go for it.
Not offend in the least,did I get under your thin skin? Of course they used either a rail or over heard wire,thats a given that I didnt feel needed explanation.
But if you FEEL better now good for you!
:salute
PS: the OP was about dealerships disappearing,but I guess you missed where I quoted another post about transitioning from horse and buggies,you upset because you make buggy whips or something?
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Nice try moribund....
You made a statement that was at best a half truth, accused me of asking an aggressive question then whine to try and cover your stupidity. Its typical....
Who will pay for the charging stations needed around the country for the EV's?
Consumers will pay for those charging stations, their installation, their upkeep, and then you will see your kilowatt hour rates increase as power companies try to recoup costs associated with ev's.
The funny part of all this is that the consumers will scream about the increased power bills, all the while crying about the need for
more technology. No one thinks of the costs upfront, they just think of that new shiney in the driveway.
A few years ago the topic was deregulating the electric utility industry. People and politicians all jumped on board screaming that competition would make electricity more affordable. That was the same type of pipe dream. The consumers were all onboard for the cheaper rates.
Then someone thought(for example), how are we going to transmit power to a Point A resident from a Point B utility? Why we will just use the existing power lines to feed it to them. The utilities between point A to point B all said go for it. We will charge transmission fees for each kilowatt hour of electricity. Then when a storm comes thru, we will get our customers on first, think about the out of state folks somewhere down the road, and we can charge them more fees to get it on any faster.
The same mentality is driving this ev revolution.
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I have absolutely no problem with anyone stating their "opinion". But when that individual makes statements that are blatantly false, I see a need to question such statements. No matter how uncomfortable questioning may be for all parties.
You are 1 of the few... does that include politicians... this past campaign there were blatant lies from both sides :salute
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Any chance we can skip to the end of this thread to find out why sim is choosing to be a dou'che bag prior to enlightening us.
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Oh the pain!
I've been labeled by one called "thebug". What terrible injury has been wrought!
Nice try insect.
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Call 'em like I see them. Can't wait to see how smart you are.
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There is not one thing in this world that I will EVER have to prove to you or anyone else on this forum. So please, by all means, hold your breath in anticipation. Someone out there can't wait to read the obituary.
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So your entire point from the get go was just to be a jerk? :headscratch: I feel you misled us, you should apologize.
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I've been labeled by one called "thebug".
Ya know, you two are old-time, respected vets of this game. Couldn't we possibly tone it down...for the sake of the children...?
- oldman