Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: oboe on December 03, 2021, 12:32:38 PM
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You can fairly file in the following in the "Too much time on my hands" file, but while I was doing research for B-17 skins I ran across a copy of a real WWII B-17 bombing mission report from a mission to St Lo in July '44 by the 306th BG (these pages are just excerpts - the real report is much longer, including reports from each crew in the mission):
(https://i.imgur.com/LHwlEis.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/1CmVAzX.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3AW7oOW.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/3SycVQn.jpg)
Reading through this report, I got an idea for a more historically-minded way to run bombing missions in AH. I adopted the format and made a template for bombing missions the in MA:
(https://i.imgur.com/PyoPkJ7.jpg)
I had already created a deck of trading-style aircraft cards using DIY business card print stock (Avery #8871, 10 business cards to an 81/2" x 11" precut card sheet) and the images from the Aces High Skins Page (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/skins/index.php?skobj=b17g):
(https://i.imgur.com/fpsl92t.jpg)
So what I have been doing for the past month or so, whenever I feel like bombing, is to shuffle the card deck and randomly pick a skin and use it to fly a semi-realistic bombing mission in the MA (no suicide missions; a target is selected to help the Knight's war effort- either tactical bombing of airfields and towns to aid a base capture attempt or a bombing run to a strat target. I keep track of the route and fill out a bombing mission details on the Mission Report form as I fly, and finish completing the report after I land. (I really need to get some whiskey too, to enjoy a shot during the post-mission debrief).
After 15 missions completed, here are the stats I compiled on the performance of my version of a small "8th Air Force":
(https://i.imgur.com/GmDCM3k.jpg)
As you can see, I'm not an accomplished bomber pilot. Some missions involved white-knuckled duals with enemy fighters, others I've been jumped by enemy fighters while in the bombsight, and I lose planes before I can get to a gun to defend my formation. It is tough to keep track of everything going on in the hectic MA while trying to watch for fighters, calibrate the bomb sight, pilot the aircraft and jot down notes for the report!
I'd like to collect more data though, because I'm interested to see if a "charmed" skin emerges that seems to be clearly more survivable than you'd expect, or if an outfit emerges as a "hard luck" unit that always seems to come home shot up (if they make it back at all).
So far, the 100th BG has the highest loss rate at 56%. The 96th BG has the highest score after 3 missions (8523) but sustained a loss rate of 44%. The 486th has had only one outing, but all aircraft returned and bombing was accurate for a decent score of 5288.
If anybody has helpful info as far as what bomb load to select for different targets, I'd appreciate it. I generally use 12x500lb HE, but have also experimented with 6x1000lbs loadout.
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Oboe,
Very interesting read, but WOW, you really do have too much time on you hands.
My Uncle Leo flew B24s in WWII, late in the war, and he said that, by the time they got to England, the 8th Air Force was officially discouraging nose are on bombers because the crews would get extremely superstitious about flying an a/c that was 'jinxed.'
He also said that the 'experts' (no idea of his frame of reference) got to looking at a/c that returned from missions with 'skin punctures,' either from mgs or from ack and 'they' wanted to beef up those areas with extra 'armor.' (again, no idea of his frame of reference) But other 'experts' pointed out that if an a/c survived the hits these a/c had taken, there was no need to add armor there, but in the places they hadn't been hit, because the a/c hit in those spots were the ones that were not coming back.
He never told me what was ever done about that.
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Oboe,
Very interesting read, but WOW, you really do have too much time on you hands.
My Uncle Leo flew B24s in WWII, late in the war, and he said that, by the time they got to England, the 8th Air Force was officially discouraging nose are on bombers because the crews would get extremely superstitious about flying an a/c that was 'jinxed.'
He also said that the 'experts' (no idea of his frame of reference) got to looking at a/c that returned from missions with 'skin punctures,' either from mgs or from ack and 'they' wanted to beef up those areas with extra 'armor.' (again, no idea of his frame of reference) But other 'experts' pointed out that if an a/c survived the hits these a/c had taken, there was no need to add armor there, but in the places they hadn't been hit, because the a/c hit in those spots were the ones that were not coming back.
He never told me what was ever done about that.
I've heard about a study like that. Looking at damage patterns and then realizing that wherever areas of the aircraft were underrepresented - those are the vulnerable areas because if the aircraft was hit there, it didn't come back.
B-17s were legendary for their ability to absorb punishment. Here's one that took a flak hit in the bombbay - I think it must not have exploded and passed right through the aircraft and out through the fuselage.
(https://i.imgur.com/EQm1JVd.jpg)
Might childhood best friend's father was a navigator on B-17s with the 384th BG. I was talking to him a few years ago and he dug out his old papers and showed me. One was a yearbook like publication about the life and times of the 384th at Grafton Underwood, personnel photos, etc. The most interesting thing were the flight reports he filled out during the flight - I remember seeing a sub-zero temperature recorded in hand-written pencil and that more than anything made his experiences more real and immediate for me.
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That's awesome, Oboe.
Reminds me of an FSO about 10 years ago set in the Philippines - one of the few where KN flew for the Allies.
We were assigned B-25's and I was researching our skins to see if any were historically accurate for the event. I found a website for a bomb group that had a few mission reports including one where they operated out of the airfield that we were going to take off from in the FSO, and their target for this mission was the same Japanese air base we were assigned to attack. We ran a low level attack profile, attacking from the east, just like they did. The immersion was awesome!
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That's awesome, Oboe.
Reminds me of an FSO about 10 years ago set in the Philippines - one of the few where KN flew for the Allies.
We were assigned B-25's and I was researching our skins to see if any were historically accurate for the event. I found a website for a bomb group that had a few mission reports including one where they operated out of the airfield that we were going to take off from in the FSO, and their target for this mission was the same Japanese air base we were assigned to attack. We ran a low level attack profile, attacking from the east, just like they did. The immersion was awesome!
Great stuff, Devil! I think I should try FSO sometime
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Uncle Leo didn't talk about his war service much, but when I was 14 or 15, I asked if he really flew bombers. We had a very intense conversation. He said two things that stuck in my mind, one was "It was the only desk job I ever had.' The other was a recount of a bomber in their formation that took a direct ack hit in the bomb bay and sympathetic detonation called the bomb load to explode. He said the whole aircraft vaporized.
He was shot down on his 8th mission. He few with the 445th Bombardment Group and Jimmy Stewart, the actor, was his commanding officer. He said that a lot of 'Hollywood' actors that wrangled commissions in the Army Air Corp cherry picked their missions. Jimmy Stewart, who had a private certificate prior to volunteering, flew every mission his squadron flew. I've mentioned this in other threads, but I've always been impressed with Uncle Leo's service.
He spent three months in a Luftstalag and was afraid they were going to be transported east, to Poland, but the end of the war came and they never did. In a strange coincidence, of of the guards from the stalag visited the States in the sixties and looked up Uncle Leo and several other people who had been prisoner in that stalag. Uncle Leo was the most serene person I ever met. I once asked him if he ever got nervous and he said, "I haven't been nervous since I got shot down."
For what it's worth.
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Its worth a lot! Especially now as we can no longer hear their stories firsthand. What a thing to witness, a bomber in your formation blowing up. My friend's father passed away from dementia a number of years ago.
I've been inside a B-24 and a B-17, courtesy of the Collings Foundation, I believe, who brought warbirds to our local airport almost annually. I found the B-17 was easier to move around inside, but the B-24 is an impressive aircraft up close.
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I will see about doing this next week and share my reports. Will need to tweak it a little to fit my play style but will do my best to be accurate.
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Would be cool, Finetime. I'll add your data in. Thanks!
It's another thing that reminds me of the size of the 8th AF's effort. I usually think about the bomber crews and grounds crews, but they must've had a large administrative/intelligence divisions too - for target selection and briefing, for interviewing/debriefing the crews after missions, for compiling and summarizing the data and sending it up the chain of decision makers.
I lost a whole group last night, attacking A12. The 486th BG, led by "American Beauty" suffered 100% loss. We had fought off the initial wave of attacking fighters (P-38, Yak) and made a couple passes over the field, targeting the Ordnance bunkers, losing one bomber in the process. I think we tried one pass too many though - an Me262 made quick work of the remaining 2 bombers.
First time I had tried a 16x250lb load out. A 3 bomb salvo seemed plenty for each bunker but I tried too many passes - shoulda left the area after my second pass...
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Cool stuff Oboe.
We could do something like this in the SEA with massive formations, into realistic targets in Germany.
I kind of switched up the format of our Fortress events, but I'd be happy to host the original format for those who want participate like this.
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Would be cool, Finetime. I'll add your data in. Thanks!
It's another thing that reminds me of the size of the 8th AF's effort. I usually think about the bomber crews and grounds crews, but they must've had a large administrative/intelligence divisions too - for target selection and briefing, for interviewing/debriefing the crews after missions, for compiling and summarizing the data and sending it up the chain of decision makers.
I lost a whole group last night, attacking A12. The 486th BG, led by "American Beauty" suffered 100% loss. We had fought off the initial wave of attacking fighters (P-38, Yak) and made a couple passes over the field, targeting the Ordnance bunkers, losing one bomber in the process. I think we tried one pass too many though - an Me262 made quick work of the remaining 2 bombers.
First time I had tried a 16x250lb load out. A 3 bomb salvo seemed plenty for each bunker but I tried too many passes - shoulda left the area after my second pass...
I stay away from the small bombs at all cost. Splash damage is life or death most of the time!
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Oboe, you have outdone me.
This man has taken bombing missions and strat runs to an entirely different level.
<S>FBTrev95/Riftval
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Oboe, you have outdone me.
This man has taken bombing missions and strat runs to an entirely different level.
<S>FBTrev95/Riftval
LOL, a long time ago, I owned a copy of this Avalon Hill solitary game, called "B-17 Queen of the Skies". The goal was to complete a tour of duty in a bombing campaign taking place in 1943-44 over NW Europe. Lots of tables and dice rolls, from mission selection to flak and enemy fighter attacks, location of damage and severity. I don't think I played it more than a dozen times, but I do remember reading an article about a young man who had actually done 25+ missions and written mission reports. He even named all the members of his crew, IIRC. Might've been from article in Avalon Hill's old gaming magazine, the "General", not sure.
(https://i.imgur.com/b9BAclg.jpg)
Guess its just my past catching up with me? I'll try to get one of these bombers through 25 missions. That means I can't have a 100% loss rate on any mission - as long as 1 makes it back, that Group is still in the running for the 25 mission goal. I think there are 2-3 BGs already out of the running - I'll have to check.
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What would be really cool,is if the europe map was used more, it gives more meaning to playing imo, but this is an opnion,from a far ofc!
Cool stuff Oboe.
We could do something like this in the SEA with massive formations, into realistic targets in Germany.
I kind of switched up the format of our Fortress events, but I'd be happy to host the original format for those who want participate like this.
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What would be really cool,is if the europe map was used more, it gives more meaning to playing imo, but this is an opnion,from a far ofc!
Well, it's only used in the Special Events Arena. If you're new to the game, you should check out our special events!
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...I'll try to get one of these bombers through 25 missions. That means I can't have a 100% loss rate on any mission - as long as 1 makes it back, that Group is still in the running for the 25 mission goal. I think there are 2-3 BGs already out of the running - I'll have to check.
Dinah-Mite's group, the 487thBG, suffered 100% loss in their last outing. So now there are just "Carolina Moon" of the 96thBG, "Sleepy Time Gal" of the 381st, and "E-RAT-ICATOR" of the 452nd left in the attempt to complete 25 missions. The 381st leads with 7 completed missions (sorties). The other two groups each have only 2 completed missions under their belts.
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What would be really cool,is if the europe map was used more, it gives more meaning to playing imo, but this is an opnion,from a far ofc!
Kenai is working on that very thing - an ETO map for the MA. Coming along very well.
As far as my mini 8th AF B-17G MA bombing campaign, after 27 missions, 49 sorties completed out of 81 total. Three Bomb Groups are still in the running to have a bomber complete a 25 mission tour (381st, 452nd, and 490th), but still have a lonng way to go, and its not getting any easier. I think if I were a general commanding the 8th, I'd be relieved of command after producing these dismal results:
(https://i.imgur.com/nwC5VVt.jpg)
I am proving here, just like in Real Life, these heavy bombers cannot fight their way in and back without escort. Special thanks to Harv406, who saved my bacon today. Both tail and ball turrets were out of ammo, and we'd already lost 1 bomber to a very persistent Fw190D, expertly flown by JakZak.
The 8th AF is not giving up - we've got 2 more Bomb Groups coming online with the next skin release, whenever that occurs:
The 92nd BG
(https://i.imgur.com/zhwPuBQ.jpg)
And the 305th BG
(https://i.imgur.com/N6Xpo1o.jpg)
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My bomber groups passed their 100th sortie milestone today. We stood up two new Groups recently, the 92nd and the 305th and they have been giving the other Groups a well-earned rest. It's clear that our stateside training programs are paying dividends-- both new groups are performing well above average, with the 92nd BG the leading all Groups in terms of lowest loss rate and highest score per sortie. The 100th is living up to its real-life nickname, "The Bloody Hundredth", with a 67% loss rate after 4 missions (12 sorties).
A handful of Groups have taken a beating and endured 100% sortie loss-rate, while one outfit-- the 490th BG (lead by the bared-skinned beauty "Carolina Moon") actually missed the target completely. All bombers returned but the Group put up a big goose egg on the scoreboard. The Group's lead bombardier has been relieved.
(https://i.imgur.com/a0ae8Pw.jpg)
34 missions on the books now.
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The 303rd BG, Hell's Angels, has a website. They have all their missions listed if you want some interesting reading.
http://303rdbg.com/missions.html
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The 303rd BG, Hell's Angels, has a website. They have all their missions listed if you want some interesting reading.
http://303rdbg.com/missions.html
Thanks, Toad. That website is incredibly detailed! I just finished Jay Stout's history of the 303rd called "Hell's Angels" - very interesting read. Those guys were in the thick of it.
(https://img.thriftbooks.com/api/images/m/29c3f91b690a37d47e2dabbaf9ab12840e9047b9.jpg)
Its available from Thriftbooks here:
http://www.thriftbooks.com/ (https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/hells-angels-the-true-story-of-the-303rd-bomb-group-in-world-war-ii_jay-a-stout/8942144/item/19256684/?mkwid=%7cdc&pcrid=76622373313111&pkw=&pmt=be&slid=&product=19256684&plc=&pgrid=1225955707720113&ptaid=pla-4580221854844377&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Bing+Shopping+%7c+Biographies+&+Memoirs+%7c+LOW&utm_term=&utm_content=%7cdc%7cpcrid%7c76622373313111%7cpkw%7c%7cpmt%7cbe%7cproduct%7c19256684%7cslid%7c%7cpgrid%7c1225955707720113%7cptaid%7cpla-4580221854844377%7c&msclkid=45dcd54d069a19ade020b4b501c027ef#idiq=19256684&edition=10243399)
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I have that book. My father-in-law was in the 303rd; Wing gunnery instructor. He's shown in the lead crew on the Hitzacker mission. He flew a bunch of missions he didn't get credited, substituting for gunners that either showed up drunk at the aircraft or just lost their nerve before a mission.
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It would be dang tough to get in that big airplane mission after mission, with the attrition rate the suffered early in the bombing campaign.
My childhood best friend's dad was a navigator with the 384th BG at Grafton Underwood. One time he showed me some of his logbooks and some photos he had taken. One was of a Fort going down after being hit. Typical of many crippled Fortress B&W period photos you see in books, but in this case I was standing next to the guy who took the photo, from his station, during a mission. I guess I never thought much about how those book photos came into being, just assumed some Forts took photographers along on some missions.
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Gents, today my virtual little 8th AF completed its 50th mission - 150 sorties total.
The stats are improving with crew training and experience, but there are still rough spots. A newly activated bomb group, the 388th, joined the ranks of the other "hard luck" outfits as it suffered 100% loss rate on its first mission. The other two units activated this week, the 447th BG, lead by "D-Day Doll", and the 379th BG, lead by "Topper/Ol' Gappy" started on a tear with zero losses and bombing scores higher than the AF average. The 92nd BG lead by "Snake Hips", maintains a zero loss rate after 9 sorties and a bombing score nearly 3 times higher than the average for all Groups.
Seven bomb groups are still in the running to have an aircraft finish a 25-mission tour. "Sleepy Time Gal" of the 381st BG has come back from all 6 missions completed by her Group.
(https://i.imgur.com/4raqusV.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/NTAftNC.jpg)
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I've been slowly making large scale maps of MA terrains, and I have found it useful to convert these to B&W versions to use as track charts for recording the missions of my little MA bombing campaign. I've completed 3 maps so far. These maps have proper proportions to print well on 8 1/2" x 11" paper if you select 'fit to page'. I use a single map to record the tracks of multiple missions, in different colored ink. Also here again is the Mission Report Template I use to record the results of the missions. Getting quite a notebook full of them after 50 missions.
(https://i.imgur.com/saRMjBp.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/k00u3p6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zub0xks.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/PyoPkJ7.jpg)
Crazy, aren't I? It all started after I saw some actual 8th AF bombing mission reports. What a huge effort that was, and at what a terrible cost, made worse by some of the AAF generals who fervently believed "the bombers will always get through" and did not support development of long-range escort fighters. They had to learn that lesson the hard way.
Still looking forward to Spielberg and Hanks upcoming sequel to Band of Brothers and The Pacific, based on the 8th AF. Apple TV now owns the production and its hard to get info, but I understand its still coming out. In the meantime I'm watching all the old B&W "12 o'clock High" episodes on You Tube.
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Took the 401st Bomb Squadron up the Elbe Estuary just a minute ago.
(http://ahevents.net/images/stories/sops_images/Nefarious/FORTRESS/B17test.png)
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We have it too easy vs flak.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/allied-heavies-vs-german-flak-why-allied-bombers-never-defeated-nazis-flakwaffe/
Father's last mission: http://www.303rdbg.com/missionreports/194.pdf :salute
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Who was your Dad, Wildin?
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2nd Lt Ralph Quint Co-pilot on "My Yorkshire Dream".
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Sorry for your loss. That was quite a writeup. Thanks for sharing it. :salute
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Sorry for your loss. That was quite a writeup. Thanks for sharing it.
Agreed, on all points.
- oldman
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Not sure how many will recall my little "game within the game" idea, but my MA bombing campaign is still proceeding. You might recall I had made a deck of B-17G collector cards based on my B-17G skin promo pictures. They're interesting enough to look at, but I wanted to figure a way to make real use of them. Here is a storyboard of the procedure I follow. Track charts and Mission Report forms are shown in detail earlier in this thread.
(https://i.imgur.com/FKL6E9A.jpg)
My mini-8th Air Force has just completed its 75th mission against enemies of the Knight Republic. Here is how their performance plays out so far. As a group, 225 sorties have been flown, dealing over 312,000 points of damage. 46 intercepting fighters were destroyed, and the overall loss rate was 28%.
There are still 5 lead aircraft left in the goal to survive a tour of 25 missions. The leading aircraft, "Sleepy Time Gal" of the 381st BG, has completed just 7 missions (21 sorties for the Group as a whole). It seems unlikely that any aircraft will make it to 25 missions at this point, unless I can arrange regular escorts. I have developed a metric called "Rating" (short for Combat Rating), which is Mission Score x Survival Rate. This gives a decent indication of the effectiveness of the Group.
(https://i.imgur.com/1WWfnFZ.jpg)
There are a few hard luck outfits. The 303rd, 100th, and 388th BGs all have terrible loss rates, and the 452nd seems to have bombardier trouble, scoring the least number of points per sortie.
Here's the raw data:
(https://i.imgur.com/gdFnKWN.jpg)
I was so sorry to see "Snake Hips" go down. She was a real hard fighter. Highest score, best combat rating, most enemy planes destroyed, after 6 missions completed. Her Group, the 92nd, was decimated on a recent mission. Both drones were knocked down over the target, and ol' "Snake Hips" was hit hard, losing both ailerons, a flap, and fuel tank hits. On top of that, both pilot and co-pilot were hit. She set a down hill course for home, with pilots taking turns as they drifted in and out of blackout. But their luck didn't hold, as her pilot blacked out for the last time just over the field and she crashed on approach.
That's it for now. As long as I've gone on this long, I'll try to keep going. Next update at 100 missions...
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Well guys my mini-8thAF campaign in the MA just completed 100 missions. With the ETOMA terrain up, I took advantage and finished 4 missions out of England. It was brutal, with Thunderbird's group (303rd) getting wiped out again, and also the 447th lost "D-Day Doll" in what was supposed to be a milk-run from Norwich up to Stavanger, Norway - what appeared to be a real quiet sector of the map. But the Luftwaffe experten were up and the Fortresses never made it home. "Topper" from the 379th BG was also lost recently, on Mission 95, an HQ strat run on the Northco map - taken down by Me163s. That was a tough loss as she seemed to have a first-rate crew with a real appetite for action - her card just kept getting drawn, and she piled up some pretty impressive numbers.
One bright spot, on Mission 98, the 92nd BG became the first group to reach Berlin. They returned after suffering a 33% loss. But they fought their way in, dropped on the target, and back out again. Flak was brutal over the target, with the lead ship of the group taking a direct hit. I mean it was "12 O'clock High" brutal, very tough to concentrate on the bombsite approaching target, with all the flak bursts everywhere - it was nearly constant bombardment. Very immersive.
This campaign started in Dec '21, so its been a year to get 100 missions on the books. "RATING" is determined as (SCORE * (1 - Loss Rate))/100.
(https://i.imgur.com/A1KgVrW.jpg)
There are now only three lead ships remaining in the quest to complete a tour of 25 missions: "Sleepy Time Gal" of the 381st, "She's A Honey" from the 305th, and "Carolina Moon" from the 490th. The current leader, "Sleepy Time Gal", is nearing the halfway mark, having survived 10 missions. Still a long, long way to go.
(https://i.imgur.com/IL2GI57.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/o2Jm4rc.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/bkSLkJ4.jpg)
Finally, I'll leave you with a beautiful oil of the 305th BG dropping on target, "She's A Honey" by Charles Taylor:
(https://i.imgur.com/D1DohFz.jpg)
<S>
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2023 Spring bombing offensive is gearing up with the addition of 3 new replacement B-17s to the Groups. "Nine-O-Nine" from the 91st, "The Floose" from the 303rd, and "Miss Conduct" from the 100th:
(https://i.imgur.com/X6eoYZt.jpg)
The Bloody 100th is living up to its reputation, with Miss Conduct's first mission resulting in the loss of all three planes in her flight.
"Carolina Moon" was lost after a rough mission when the pilot (me) simply botched the landing. My approach speed was too low and I cobbed on the power too late and tumbled in. She was one of 3 Flying Fortresses remaining which still had a shot to complete a 25 mission tour.
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Super cool data oboe!
Can I borrow some of your time?
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This is a really cool idea oboe. Great graphics you made too.
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Reading intently...... cheering profusely.
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My mini-8thAF MA bombing campaign has now completed 125 missions against the enemies of the Knight Republic. With another replacement B-17G available and a handful of new terrains up (3Points, Atoll, Badlands, Crags and BlackSea) it was time to get in and wreak some damage. Inexperienced crews have a tough time surviving in the MA, and 3 of the 4 most recently added B-17s have been lost.
"Our Gal Sal" recently took over as lead aircraft of the "Bloody Hundredth" bomb group. She was lost to an
enemy Me110 fighter on the "Crags" terrain during her second mission. MA combat is brutal for unescorted heavies.
(https://i.imgur.com/IdYrGKn.jpg)
The latest bombing report tells the story. "RATING" is determined as (SCORE * (1 - Loss Rate))/100.
(https://i.imgur.com/QoLG6xe.jpg)
The 381st BG's "Sleepy Time Gal" continues to set the pace with excellent bombing results and good defensive gunnery. She leads all aircraft with 13 missions completed.
The 305th's "She's A Honey" (8 missions) is back in the air after an extended term at the repair depot. "Nine-O-Nine" has stepped in to lead the 91st BG efficiently and
now has two missions under her belt. These three aircraft are the only B-17s who still have a chance to complete a tour of 25 missions.
(https://i.imgur.com/IL2GI57.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/o2Jm4rc.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/deOkWuG.jpg)
One recent high point of the campaign involved the 487th BG in the ETOMA terrain. Departing from A92 (Ferrara) in Italy, the Group struck the Antiaircraft manufacturing plant near Presov in Czechoslovakia.
Spending nearly two hours in the air over enemy territory, the Group fought their way in by taking out radar sites along their course, at Balaton (A46) and Cadca (V145) to blind the enemy's fighter defenses.
(https://i.imgur.com/aryFil0.jpg)
"Dinah Mite" of the 487th BG leads a strike into enemy territory. She was lost on Mission #20; it was
only her second mission.
(https://i.imgur.com/DLgazSn.jpg)
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Reading intently...... cheering profusely.
Same. It's a great read.
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Update to a continuing story, for those interesting in following. Looks like we made the news!
Click image for full-size version
(https://i.imgur.com/ruShJyf.jpg)
I am closing in on mission number 150. Cumulative average losses per mission are running above 25%, but that's steadily down from a maximum of 45% after Mission 20. I hope to have additional aircraft delivered soon. The 91st BG is due to receive "Super Mouse", a late model B-17G-90-BO. Her addition should help fill out the thinning ranks.
In other news, with the loss of "D-Day Doll" on mission 100, "Bit O' Lace" has stepped in to lead the 447th's effort. She has now completed 2 sorties, and led the Group to a record-setting performance on Mission 135, landing 16,244 pts after bombing the Rook town of Ystad in southern Sweden on the Baltic terrain.
(https://i.imgur.com/9Xtv2Ir.jpg)
I've decided to stand down both the 100thBG and the 303rd for the time being. These two Groups have been in the thick of it the whole time; the 100th is tied for most sorties (45) with the 381stBG. But after having sustained 100% losses on four missions, the crews and aircraft of both these groups need to be taken off operations and rested. In future, I've decided 3 100% loss missions will be the threshold for standing down a unit. After a group experiences its 3rd 100% loss, it will be removed from combat assignments.
<S>, next update after mission #150.
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The latest statistics of my MA Bombing Campaign have been compiled and continue to show a bleak picture for my small, unescorted B-17 bomber groups in the MA. My groups have now completed 150 missions (450 sorties) in a campaign that started almost two years ago, on 20 Oct 21. Since that date, the Flying Fortresses have dropped 900,800 lbs of high explosive on enemy targets. They've shot down 61 enemy planes in combat but suffer with a near-crippling average loss rate of 26.9% per mission. I've gone back through the records to keep track of casualties, and my losses stand at 1,246 KIA. These losses include entire crews when planes are shot down, but also damaged gun positions of planes that make it back to base-- it is assumed the gunner at that position was KIA.
(https://i.imgur.com/oDdUqbI.jpg)
The mini-8thAF Bomber Command welcome two new Fortresses to its ranks since my last update. The 91st BG received a very nice late model B-17G-90-BO, 43-38642, named "Super Mouse", assigned to the 323 Bomb Squadron, while an entirely new group, the 306th, was added to the roll. The 306th is comprised of the 369th Bomb Squadron led by a well-worn B-17G-5-BO, 42-31143, named "Satan's Lady":
Click on images for full-size versions
(https://i.imgur.com/nggniNN.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/1cw7Hzp.jpg)
"Super Mouse" has already logged a couple of sorties. While "Satan's Lady" has a flown only once, it was one for the record books. Fuel refineries were the target for the 306th's combat debut of 13 Sep, but during the climb out enemy radar enroute to the primary had become active, so the Group was re-routed to secondary target. During the mission, Knight numbers fell and air superiority was lost. Waves of enemy fighters buzzed below the Group as it made it's course change to the secondary target, and several fighters were able to climb high enough to make attack runs on the formation. The 'Lady's gunners answered and knocked down 4 enemy fighters; the tail guns expending all of their ammunition in fighting off the attacks. The mission lasted more than 3 hours of game-time and scored 11,834 in a bomb drop on A77's town.
The 447th's most recent addition, "Bit O' Lace", was lost on her 3rd sortie. Lifting off from A25 Newbury on 7 Sep 23, the Group was bound for Berlin. Designated bombing altitude was a comfortable 24,000 ft, but an IP southwest of the city put the Group on course between two deadly flak batteries. The German 88s below were ready and zeroed in on Bit O' Lace's formation. First one, then the other of her drones were hit and destroyed by accurate fire. After the drop the 88s concentrated on the sole surviving Fortress as she tried to make her escape, but within minutes she was also hit and plummeted to earth in flames.
(https://i.imgur.com/3Szzj8T.jpg)
The mission on 15 Sep 23 saw the loss of the 305thBG's "She's A Honey". Attacking A70 on the Black Sea terrain, she was set upon by a tag team consisting of a Hawker Tempest and a P-38 Lightning, who in a masterfully coordinated series of attacks, decimated the formation, destroying all 3 planes in her flight. This was an especially tough loss as she was a veteran of 10 sorties.
(https://i.imgur.com/o2Jm4rc.jpg)
Four Fortresses remain in the quest to complete a tour of 25 missions. The 381st's "Sleepy Time Gal" is hanging on with 17, followed distantly by the 91st BG's "Nine-O-Nine" and "Super Mouse" with 4 and 2 respectively. The 306th's "Satan's Lady" brings up the rear with just one mission. Life continues to be brutal for my small unescorted bomber groups in the MA; even altitude restrictions as high as 24,000 ft did not save the 447th BG as it attacked the heavily-protected Bish capital Berlin.
The 381st BG has been granted R&R, and the majority of the upcoming missions will be flown by the Groups with surviving Fortresses. Previously I had been including Groups in the mission rotation even if they had already lost all their named aircraft, assuming the mission would be lead by some unnamed generic aircraft. But I'm going to try to build the mission count of the planes that still have a chance to complete a 25 mission tour. If I lose the rest of the surviving Fortresses, my MA Bombing Campaign will come to an end.
Next update will be at the 500-sorties mark. :salute
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LOL, a long time ago, I owned a copy of this Avalon Hill solitary game, called "B-17 Queen of the Skies". The goal was to complete a tour of duty in a bombing campaign taking place in 1943-44 over NW Europe. Lots of tables and dice rolls, from mission selection to flak and enemy fighter attacks, location of damage and severity. I don't think I played it more than a dozen times, but I do remember reading an article about a young man who had actually done 25+ missions and written mission reports. He even named all the members of his crew, IIRC. Might've been from article in Avalon Hill's old gaming magazine, the "General", not sure.
(https://i.imgur.com/b9BAclg.jpg)
Guess its just my past catching up with me? I'll try to get one of these bombers through 25 missions. That means I can't have a 100% loss rate on any mission - as long as 1 makes it back, that Group is still in the running for the 25 mission goal. I think there are 2-3 BGs already out of the running - I'll have to check.
I owned that game. Even though it was supposed to be solitaire, my friend and I would take turns flying B-17s and rolling for the Luftwaffe attacks. We always named our planes and crews. Some missions were epic. I was interested in the bomb run than trying to get kills with my gunners. My favorite campaigns were the ones where I not only completed 25 missions, but didn't lose any crew.
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That's great, Streak - probably brought back some fun memories for you. Do you remember the names of any of your B-17s?
Its odd, but when I go back and read some early mission reports I've written, I can remember the events like they were very recent. It's very tense manning guns, fending off fighters when you know you also need to get to the bombardier station and calibrate the bombsite, maintain the course on the track chart, make notes about the mission. I think that tension in those moments help create the long-lasting memories.
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I was blessed with some free time this past week so I went back to my Main Arena Bombing Campaign game and flew enough sorties to reach my next milestone - 500+ bombing sorties overall in the MA. My first mission overall was dated 21 Oct 2021, so I've been at this for more than two years! It's been more than a year since I posted the storyboard for this weird little "game within the game" I devised, so "for the benefit of the uneducated among us"* I shall repost.
Click image for full-size version
(https://i.imgur.com/FKL6E9A.jpg)
As odd as it is, I still adhere to these principles - only difference is now, if a B-17 skin's entire flight of 3 is destroyed on a mission, I stand the Group down, removing it from further combat (unless there are multiple skins for the group; in which case the Group can keep flying missions, lead by one of the remaining skins. The 91st BG is the only remaining group with multiple skins. I have 100s of pages of printed mission reports and track chart maps, and they now exceed the holding capacity of a 3" 3-ring binder. I am surprised I have stuck with it this long, but I am uncontrollably curious to see if any of the B-17 skins can survive a 25 mission Tour of Duty in the MA. As I have only completed B-17G skins from the 8th Air Force, I've been calling my force "The Mini 8th"...
I was also stunned to learn that another vintage newspaper has apparently picked up the saga of my MA Bombing Campaign and begun reporting on it. I counted two front page stories in this issue from Feb 1944 (Still only a dime!)
Click image for full-size version
(https://i.imgur.com/xgeoWmB.jpg)
The statistical analysis division is hard at work compiling meaningful stats, but I can tell you a couple of nuggets right now. First, we have one bomber that is getting agonizingly close to finishing her Tour - "Sleepy Time Gal" from the 381st has managed to rack up 21 completed sorties - only 4 more to go! I don't know what it is about her crew, but their card keeps coming up. I had actually removed them from the rotation back in September as "forced" R&R to let some of the newer Groups build their mission count. As soon as I let them back in, their card starts getting drawn again. The Gal flew 4 of the last 11 missions. There are only 5 cards in the mission deck, and her card was drawn 4 of 11 times? By my calculation, random chance should've assigned her only twice out of 11 draws.
Secondly, the newest crews seem to start out scoring the highest points per sortie. As they fly more, their score comes down. It just seems odd, as I create the mission BEFORE I randomly assign the group to fly it, but somehow the new groups seem to get milk runs. Must be beginner's luck? It happened with "The Creamer" most recently, but also with "Satan's Lady" before her.
*Line from 1969 "Battle of Britain" movie. Recognize it?
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That stuff is so cool. Thanks for sharing.
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So after looking and looking I finally found out what missions and bombers my grandfather was on in WW2. He flew 25 combat missions. In B-17's he was the Top Turret gunner and Flight Engineer on each mission. He flew on "War Horse", "Remember US", "Sweet Chariot", "Miss D-Day", "Hot Chocolate", "Hit Parade,Jr", "Slick Chick", "Back to the Shack", "Lenora Linda", "Miss Fortune", "Barbara B", "Hell's Belles", and "In Like Flynn". These missions were from June 21 1944 to April 16 1945. First Mission was to Berlin.
http://www.385thbga.com/records/b-17/
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<S> to your grandfather, noman. Whatta way to start - with a first mission to Berlin! Can only imagine what would go through your mind when the curtain is drawn back at the briefing and you find out your first mission is to the German capital.
That's a very nice website the 385th has; thanks for sharing. Great pics of the nose art of the aircraft.
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Terrible news from the front this week, guys. I was hoping she'd beat the odds. The Baltimore News-Post got the scoop:
Click to enlarge
(https://i.imgur.com/5uxmtEo.jpg)
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Slick paper...........
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For those still interested, my MA bombing campaign is not going well. Only two bomb groups remain of the sixteen that have been flying combat missions over the past 2+ years, the 91st and the 306th. The 91st has "Nine-O-Nine" and a recent addition from the repair depot, the half-and-half special "Little Miss Mischief", who just completed her first mission. The 306th has a beat-up old Fortress named "Satan's Lady", currently the leader in mission count at 8 missions. The odds are against any one of these planes making 25 missions, but I am still at it. I've calculated that there is about an 11% chance that at least one of the three could complete a tour.
Here are the stats after 175 missions. Every mission has the potential of 3 sorties; actual completed sorties are the number of planes that return and land successfully. I've had 28 missions out of 175 where all 3 planes were shot down.
(https://i.imgur.com/UcsAeDN.jpg)
And here is the front page from Derby's "Evening Telegraph" newspaper:
Click image to read paper
(https://i.imgur.com/Dm33zKE.jpg)
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Update edition of the Telegraph:
Click image to read paper
(https://i.imgur.com/PRDRnZJ.jpg)
Next update planned at 200 missions.
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Wow that is pretty awesome to record the sorties like this. I'll have to say, it's probably very tough in the MA given you never know whose going to show up and in what plane they are going to be in. If you aren't 25k, you are almost a sitting duck unless you can find the kind of aim that Finetime uses. Timing also matters, early in the AM you will have buff hunters who have all the time in the world to catch you, while in the evenings you may have more friendly support and also be able to sneak around easier since there is more commotion on the map. Anyway, great job and cool stuff with the News Papers.
Interesting to see Decoy back in the original post of this. I've been wondering what happened to him, or if he left the game.
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Nice......
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Wow that is pretty awesome to record the sorties like this. I'll have to say, it's probably very tough in the MA given you never know whose going to show up and in what plane they are going to be in. If you aren't 25k, you are almost a sitting duck unless you can find the kind of aim that Finetime uses. Timing also matters, early in the AM you will have buff hunters who have all the time in the world to catch you, while in the evenings you may have more friendly support and also be able to sneak around easier since there is more commotion on the map. Anyway, great job and cool stuff with the News Papers.
Interesting to see Decoy back in the original post of this. I've been wondering what happened to him, or if he left the game.
You're exactly right about that Dmon. I've been increasing the minimum bombing altitude of my missions as a survival tactic; generally now I'm up over 20K, but the higher I go the less useful I am for base captures as the situation on the ground usually changes before I can drop on a target. I try to do a mix of strat target bombing and aiding base captures. I'm in this far so I intend to keep going until all my named bombers have been lost, or one of them completes a tour of 25, whichever comes first. I have 3 bombers left out of 23 skins.
Thank you as always, Shuffler. <S>
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In case anyone is still following, I haven't given up my goal of getting one of my B-17G skins to complete a tour of 25-missions in the MA without being shot down. I call this effort my MA Bombing Campaign, and I am still keeping records of each mission I fly for toward this effort. I've been at this off-and-on since October 2021, and I have now reached the 200 mission, 600 sortie milestone.
Local newspapers across the country have apparently picked up my story and I occasionally run across headlines and news accounts of the campaign. Here's a recent one from the Moline Daily Dispatch, Moline, Illinois:
Click image to read front page
(https://i.imgur.com/OCXjAvW.jpg)
Here are a couple aircraft trading cards I made, showing the only two bombers (from a group of 23 skins) remaining in the race. With a 25% overall loss rate, its likely both bombers will be shot down before completing their tours. I did have one bomber reach 21 missions before being lost.
"Satan's Lady", 13 missions completed: "Little Miss Mischief", 16 missions completed:
(https://i.imgur.com/93GZVW6.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/tEGwe3p.jpg)
I'm still following this procedure, however I'm down to just two cards in my bomber card deck:
(https://i.imgur.com/FKL6E9A.jpg)
:salute
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I overheard some young boys excitedly talking about this very thing. It made me wonder, is this the Oboe that u know?
Well done.