A discussion on spin recovery training and technique gets locked?
I was confused as well until I realized that the newly created account is using a name that is a thinly veiled attack on a forum member.
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: bj229r on September 10, 2022, 11:51:55 AM
I was wondering, then I looked more closely at the poster name
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 10, 2022, 12:58:24 PM
It is a topic worth discussing. I recently went through a flight review with a CFI to regain my currency and it blew me away that they asked if I was ok with doing spin recovery, instead of just doing it. I asked why it was only an option and found out it is no longer a Transport Canada requirement. The flight school still teaches it when they can but it's not an official part of the training.
In my early 20's while building time I did an aerobatics course and became certified. I learned more about handling an aircraft in that ~10hr course (and all the solo I did after) than I did in my 55hrs to get my private. I gained a lot of confidence knowing that I could make the aircraft do what I want it to do. I even went as far as to start developing an upset recovery training course for my flight school. I would recommend every pilot takes at least an intro, and I do think it should be a requirement.
As for spin recovery, I found the instructor was initiating recovery too early on her demos. It resulted in a very nose down, almost vertical attitude and was well within the yellow arc during the pull out of the dive. I prefer to let it develop just a second longer and when the spin breaks you're only in a roughly 40deg nose down attitude and nowhere near the yellow arc on the pull up. This is treating it as an emergency procedure, in aerobatics you want to recover 90deg down line. I haven't compared the numbers as to which results in less altitude loss but I imagine a vertical dive to +140kts is going to eat up more alt vs a ~40deg dive to ~110kts.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: TyFoo on September 10, 2022, 06:07:22 PM
Rich Stowell is a great resource for Spin Awareness and training. He has Youtube videos and books.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Busher on September 10, 2022, 06:10:34 PM
I learned to fly in 1963 in Canada. At that time with the likes of Aeroncas, Cubs, etc, spin recovery training was just part of the curriculum. I have no idea when Transport Canada eliminated that training and reverted to "insipient spin" recovery.... maybe about the same time the spin characteristics of more modern light aircraft became so Gawd-awful.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: CptTrips on September 10, 2022, 06:41:17 PM
I remember reading a book about WWI and how the early pilots were terrified of a spin. They didn't really understand the causes and had no idea how to get out of it. It was essentially a random occurrence that would be fatal. It was like an early version of the sound barrier. They felt it was like a fundamental limit of aerodynamics that if it occurred, you were helpless; you were dead.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 10, 2022, 07:10:12 PM
I learned to fly in 1963 in Canada. At that time with the likes of Aeroncas, Cubs, etc, spin recovery training was just part of the curriculum. I have no idea when Transport Canada eliminated that training and reverted to "insipient spin" recovery.... maybe about the same time the spin characteristics of more modern light aircraft became so Gawd-awful.
I did my flight training in the early 2000s and it was still part of the training then, so must have been in the past 15 yrs. Private I think was just recovery but commercial was entry and recovery.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Busher on September 10, 2022, 07:17:52 PM
I did my flight training in the early 2000s and it was still part of the training then, so must have been in the past 15 yrs. Private I think was just recovery but commercial was entry and recovery.
How many turns? They use something useful like a Citabria?
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: AKIron on September 10, 2022, 07:32:53 PM
Please pardon my exposition of a certain other sim but if you ever find yourself flying an F-14 after bombing a fictional country as did Tom Cruise here's how to recover from a flat spin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-uFfJOwb_g
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: nopoop on September 10, 2022, 08:56:32 PM
In a cessna 150 it was 2 turns. Early 70's. Taught both entry and exit. Lol and hammer heads..
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 10, 2022, 09:31:42 PM
It wasn't even 1 turn in a 172 for the test, just the incipient and recover. Did 5-6 in a 150 aerobat. Even did inverted once, that was disorienting.lol
Hammerheads were my favorite!
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 10, 2022, 09:34:01 PM
172s are so stable that it was a challenge to get more than 2-3 turns before it just recovered on its own.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Brooke on September 11, 2022, 02:54:05 AM
Doing spins was standard for flight school in the late 1970's for me, too, in Cessna 152's.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Arlo on September 11, 2022, 06:40:28 AM
Doing spins was standard for flight school in the late 1970's for me, too, in Cessna 152's.
By the time I got my flight training (2006-7) the FAA had removed spins from training requirements, on the theory that more people were getting killed practicing spins than were actually entering spins by accident. I had one CFI refuse to teach me spins. Fortunately I had another who was happy to do it (but a bit nervous until we actually started doing them).
I think the FAA was nuts to eliminate the training.
- oldman
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: bj229r on September 11, 2022, 09:48:48 AM
Were there incidents of crashes from teaching sessions of that?
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 11, 2022, 10:56:59 AM
That is the other side of it. My aerobatics instructor told me about a time he was teaching spins to a new ppl student and the student froze. He just held the controls in place. My instructor had to hit him to get him to let go. I think they ended up going through minimum recovery altitude before he was able to get control.
I get where the FAA and TC are coming from but the point isn't just learning how to recover from a spin, it's developing that familiarity with unusual attitudes so if something weird does happen you don't lock up.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: TyFoo on September 11, 2022, 11:33:13 AM
Mandatory Spin training in the U.S. was eliminated back 1949-1950. Spin training is still required for Certified Flight Instructor candidates.
Most GA aircraft i.e. Cessnas, and Pipers will not stay in a spin if within CG limits due to their inherent design in stability.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 11, 2022, 11:52:20 AM
Mandatory Spin training in the U.S. was eliminated back 1949-1950. Spin training is still required for Certified Flight Instructor candidates.
Most GA aircraft i.e. Cessnas, and Pipers will not stay in a spin if within CG limits due to their inherent design in stability.
I have never flown any of the modern trainer type singles. If they will not stay in a low airspeed spin until corrected, I gather that they will end up in a screaming spiral dive. Seems to me that is likely to damage the airframe with speed and significant G stresses.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Shuffler on September 12, 2022, 10:34:16 PM
Recent....
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Busher on September 13, 2022, 09:35:17 AM
I found this video of a stable spin. It's quite clear that airspeed remains low and stable during the spin and requires no pilot input until recovery is initiated. Airspeed only increases during the recovery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI9T5m2eRJo
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: icepac on September 13, 2022, 10:38:15 AM
150 aerobatic was my primary trainer like others here and am alarmed by the lack of unusual attitudes training. I trained it all and while under the hood
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: jigsaw on September 13, 2022, 10:26:36 PM
A couple additional trainings I've always recommended to pilots, especially if they were my students, are an EMT program with someone like Rich or where I did mine at https://fightercombat.com/ , and the High Altitude Chamber training.
I've had real world experiences in both cases in a situations where the training kicked in and I was able to think... "Hey I remember this, and how to get out of it"
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Eagler on September 14, 2022, 06:53:33 AM
How does one get out of an upside down spin in a spit?
Saw one of those in MNM
Eagler
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Shuffler on September 14, 2022, 09:03:51 AM
How does one get out of an upside down spin in a spit?
Saw one of those in MNM
Eagler
Use the ground
:rofl
Seriously the video I posted above was training in a twin. They accidently got theirs elves in a flat spin and impacted the ground flat.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Eagler on September 14, 2022, 09:04:28 AM
That did stop that spit :)
Eagler
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2022, 09:44:25 AM
In USAF Undergraduate Pilot Training we spun the T-37 every which way but loose. Every possible configuration was taught for spin recovery, clean, full landing configuration, single engine in each of those, and into the simulated dead engine & away from it. Became almost routine and boring after awhile, sort of (except, we didn’t have the dramatic music playing).
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Busher on September 14, 2022, 10:21:14 AM
In USAF Undergraduate Pilot Training we spun the T-37 every which way but loose.
My Tweet IP had an Iranian student that wouldn't do spin recoveries. Period. Sat on his hands so to speak. Got to the point where it was the last chance for romance. IP told him he'd demo one and then Abdul HAD to enter and recover from just ONE spin or he was going home. Getting sent home without wings was not a good thing in the days of the Shah.
So, demo. Next Abdul puts her in the spin entry correctly but holds full aft stick forever while yelling essentially this is the day we meet Allah. IP keeps telling him to initiate recovery, IP keeps trying to push stick forward, yelling continues with stick full aft. IP unable to get stick forward at all due to leverage situation with stick touching bellybutton.
Passing 10,000, IP begins slamming his fist into Abdul's O2 mask. Third hit, Abdul takes hands off stick to protect face and IP recovers. Threatens to kill Abdul if he touches the stick again. Aircraft RTB Willie, Abdul RTB Iran.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Volron on September 14, 2022, 01:53:40 PM
In USAF Undergraduate Pilot Training we spun the T-37 every which way but loose. Every possible configuration was taught for spin recovery, clean, full landing configuration, single engine in each of those, and into the simulated dead engine & away from it. Became almost routine and boring after awhile, sort of (except, we didn’t have the dramatic music playing).
This makes me curious: From what you know, how did the Phantom handle a spin? Did you put one into a spin?
As heavy as she is, I'm quite curious if she handled a spin well, poorly, etc. :headscratch:
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Oldman731 on September 14, 2022, 01:59:20 PM
Apply opposite rudder to stop the rotation of the spin and then apply elevator to reduce angle of attack. Do Not use ailerons.
Heh. You haven't done it in the Spit I. So far as I can tell - and I have extensive experience! - there is no recovery from the Spit I's inverted spin.
- oldman
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2022, 02:23:28 PM
My Tweet IP had an Iranian student that wouldn't do spin recoveries. Period. Sat on his hands so to speak. Got to the point where it was the last chance for romance. IP told him he'd demo one and then Abdul HAD to enter and recover from just ONE spin or he was going home. Getting sent home without wings was not a good thing in the days of the Shah.
So, demo. Next Abdul puts her in the spin entry correctly but holds full aft stick forever while yelling essentially this is the day we meet Allah. IP keeps telling him to initiate recovery, IP keeps trying to push stick forward, yelling continues with stick full aft. IP unable to get stick forward at all due to leverage situation with stick touching bellybutton.
Passing 10,000, IP begins slamming his fist into Abdul's O2 mask. Third hit, Abdul takes hands off stick to protect face and IP recovers. Threatens to kill Abdul if he touches the stick again. Aircraft RTB Willie, Abdul RTB Iran.
WOW!!!
Interesting that a Saudi Arabian student in our Tweet flight had issues with a compass, it turned out. He and his IP walked in from flying one day. The IP had completely lost it and was screaming at the top of his voice at the back of the stud’s head. While out in their assigned tube (airspace sectors), the IP commanded a turn to a cardinal compass heading and the guy turns the wrong direction to a different point on the compass and stops. Long story short, this stud had no idea what a compass was, nor how to use it. The IP spent along time quizzing him on compass headings. It wasn’t in this guy’s tool bag of skills.
Then there was the Iranian student, who must have been asleep during life support class when they explained the ejection seat, parachute, how to use both, and the contingencies for malfunctions. A rather long story but, he hadn’t a clue what the metal “D” shaped thing on the front of his parachute harness was used for. :x
A friend from F-106 days, had been a T-38 IP prior. One day while flying with a Saudi stud in the traffic pattern, this guy tigered the final turn a bit too much and was rapidly approaching a stall. My IP buddy screamed for him to unload and go full afterburners. The stud threw his hands up in the air and proclaimed “Allah with take care of us”, which prompted my friend to grab the stick, slam the throttles to the full afterburner stops, and recover from the base to final turn stall they were entering. He flew around the pattern for a more conventional approach and landing from the back seat. The debrief was very short and direct. My buddy then went to his flight commander, explained what happened, and went home for the day. On the way home, he stopped at the class VI store, bought a case of beer, and commenced to recover from the day.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2022, 02:41:18 PM
This makes me curious: From what you know, how did the Phantom handle a spin? Did you put one into a spin?
As heavy as she is, I'm quite curious if she handled a spin well, poorly, etc. :headscratch:
Basically, spins were a prohibited intentional maneuver. There was no tactical advantage to doing them and the descent rate was incredible, as indicated on the film below. If still in a spin or out of control condition going through 10,000’ above ground level occurred, procedure was to eject without delay. The ground was seconds away. The spin video starts about the 24 minute point and shows a flat spin about 26 minutes. Enough spins were done in the T-37 to last a lifetime.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Shuffler on September 14, 2022, 04:32:03 PM
Apply opposite rudder to stop the rotation of the spin and then apply elevator to reduce angle of attack. Do Not use ailerons.
Flat spin......... elevator has no authority nor does the rudder.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: bj229r on September 14, 2022, 04:51:24 PM
My big brother was an ATC at Ft Rucker in the early 70's, he'd tell me about those guys (probably Iranian) they fire it up.."me go now"... gone
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Rocco on September 14, 2022, 05:54:10 PM
*edit : removed a bunch cause I was wrong*
Heard stories of guys telling their copilot to unbuckle and press against the front canopy to try to get the cg forward and get the nose down. Lol
Procedure I was always taught is power idle (gyro effects in a prop plane make spins worse), ailerons neutral, nose down (or up if inverted), opposite rudder. Hold those inputs until rotation stops then neutralize rudder, roll wings level, and ease out of the dive.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Puma44 on September 14, 2022, 07:05:20 PM
Out of control recovery for the F-4 was to neutralize all controls, engines to idle, and brace for Mr Toad’s wild ride as it worked itself out of the gyrations it got into. Eventually, it would come to relatively stable flight condition where the pilot could again use the controls and engines, assuming the recovery happens above 10,000’ above ground level.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Busher on September 14, 2022, 08:33:07 PM
Out of control recovery for the F-4 was to neutralize all controls, engines to idle, and brace for Mr Toad’s wild ride as it worked itself out of the gyrations it got into. Eventually, it would come to relatively stable flight condition where the pilot could again use the controls and engines, assuming the recovery happens above 10,000’ above ground level.
Yuck. Sounds frighteningly like an airbus. :confused:
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Toad on September 14, 2022, 09:09:45 PM
My Tweet IP had an Iranian student that wouldn't do spin recoveries. Period. Sat on his hands so to speak. Got to the point where it was the last chance for romance. IP told him he'd demo one and then Abdul HAD to enter and recover from just ONE spin or he was going home. Getting sent home without wings was not a good thing in the days of the Shah.
So, demo. Next Abdul puts her in the spin entry correctly but holds full aft stick forever while yelling essentially this is the day we meet Allah. IP keeps telling him to initiate recovery, IP keeps trying to push stick forward, yelling continues with stick full aft. IP unable to get stick forward at all due to leverage situation with stick touching bellybutton.
Passing 10,000, IP begins slamming his fist into Abdul's O2 mask. Third hit, Abdul takes hands off stick to protect face and IP recovers. Threatens to kill Abdul if he touches the stick again. Aircraft RTB Willie, Abdul RTB Iran.
LOL!
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: AKIron on September 14, 2022, 11:21:16 PM
In an F-14 sim I can recover both engines out given enough altitude. Engines out and a flat spin, Goose is cooked.
Title: Re: Spins
Post by: Puma44 on September 15, 2022, 09:23:47 AM
Heh. You haven't done it in the Spit I. So far as I can tell - and I have extensive experience! - there is no recovery from the Spit I's inverted spin.
- oldman
The problem with the in game spit 1 is CoG,try dropping the gear and applying full forward stick. This should get the nose to come down,if inverted and help you regain control. Of course you need some alt to work with,under 2k above ground level and it’s too late.