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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 08:49:03 AM

Title: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 08:49:03 AM
Can you trim a single engine plane in AH to fly hands off without using an auto level of some sort?

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: haggerty on October 28, 2023, 10:07:08 AM
sure, that's what trim is for.  But changes in speed will start to cause changes to flight based on old trim.  Not sure why you'd want to unless you think autopilot is making unnecessary corrections and holding you back a knot or two.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 10:45:48 AM
Thanks

Trying to figure out how much if any manual trim in this game is better than the auto combat trim I think most use

Is CT like the stall limiter that limits the planes actual ability?

Watching some films of the dueling arena show the winner is manual trimming..he is kicking ct on then off in the beginning of each bout and stays manual throughout though I can't see the trim levels actually change in the recordings..

Do you trim all axis or just elevator and rudder?

Does aileron trim work on all planes?

I can't get it to trim in the k4..might be my hotas setup

I am curious to see who tries to manual trim in an a2a and which axis

I am thinking my use of manual trim at max deflection is getting me killed by the manual pilots who are able to then sail above me the roll over and with uncanny accuracy pop my stalled target..

 :cheers:

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Lazerr on October 28, 2023, 10:45:54 AM
Can you adjust sensitivity on trim controls?  I just use combat trim.

I'd assume if you can make the trim controls super sensitive, you could almost fly your plane with them to some extent.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 10:57:53 AM
Thanks Lazerr..even while fighting?

I can't trim to fly hands free..not sure if it's the missing aileron trim..wondering if anyone else can..

Twin engine planes might be easier as they are not fighting prop torque

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: The Fugitive on October 28, 2023, 11:03:03 AM
Popping CT on then off is like trimming manually, but getting it close everytime in a second.

Turning it on trims your plane for the speed it is doing, and turning it off leaves it there.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 11:15:27 AM
Popping CT on then off is like trimming manually, but getting it close everytime in a second.

Turning it on trims your plane for the speed it is doing, and turning it off leaves it there.

Thanks Fugitive

I've seen this and use it as manual trim rudder seems to send it way out of center when changing speed

Do you then try to manual trim or just pop the ct on and off repeatedly during a2a?

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 28, 2023, 12:10:32 PM
In my experience, 99% of the time you shouldn't remove combat trim because once you pull around for the shot your plane is not balanced and can make it harder to aim while also burning extra E. In the MA, you are hardly ever going to need to turn off combat trim to "turn better". You'd be better off using better angles and throttle flap control.

For the record, I wouldn't trust leaving your computer for more than 2 minutes If only using manual trim and not autopilot. Even that might be too long...
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Puma44 on October 28, 2023, 12:33:39 PM
Can you trim a single engine plane in AH to fly hands off without using an auto level of some sort?

Eagler

Every time power and/or speed changes, any aircraft (real world or in game) has to be trimmed if a “hands off” state is desired.  The Mustang trim wheels shown below are very responsive to pilot input when needed for power and airspeed changes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y1RMRn5/IMG-5513.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 01:02:13 PM
Can anyone manual trim in AH and fly hands off?

I would think you should be able to for a short bit but I can't do it at all..

But I can't do it in IL2 or DCS either so just wondering if it was me

Thanks for your takes on the subject!  :salute

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Puma44 on October 28, 2023, 01:45:17 PM
Can anyone manual trim in AH and fly hands off?

I would think you should be able to for a short bit but I can't do it at all..

But I can't do it in IL2 or DCS either so just wondering if it was me

Thanks for your takes on the subject!  :salute

Eagler

Eagler, assuming you’ve calibrated the stick, just as in real world, it won’t flying forever without some pilot input tweaking of the trim.  My setup will trim hands off for a bit but, will drift at some point.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 02:02:46 PM
Thanks Pumpa calibration might be part of my issue

Do you keep CT on or just pop it occasionally like Fugi does?

That Skyyr fellow seems to keep it off after a rest at the start of his dueling

I seem to get a better response if it's popped to reset trim as others have noted then try to manual alittle during the fight with the rotor trim but that is just elevator trim..

Rudder trim starts to get wonky quickly and to try to control both elevator trim on the throttle rotor and rudder trim on a hat on the stick while trying to press another button on the throttle to get the overhead view ....

What about "flying the ball" as it relates to rudder position? Anyone try to keep their ball in the middle?  :joystick:

 :cheers:

Eagler

Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Kermit de frog on October 28, 2023, 02:59:37 PM
I fly with combat trim always off.  I manually trim via 4 way thumb switches on fighter stick, so hands always stay on throttle/stick.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 28, 2023, 03:10:41 PM
Howdy Kermit

Do you trim all three?

Can you trim to fly hands off?

Do you mess with it during combat or just getting to it?

Thanks

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Drano on October 28, 2023, 03:22:26 PM
I rarely use CT other than to do a quick reset. I have all trims mapped to my hotas so I can get to them easy. I've found that CT, at least for the 38s, is a bit off at the upper and lower ends of the speed range. I find it corrects too much nose high when at low speeds and you end up pushing the stick to turn. Really counterintuitive. Conversely, at high speed it corrects too much nose low exasperating the nose tuck/lawn dart effect. That right there is the best reason to have CT and elevator trim mapped in the 38! The recovery flap on the L helps but you have to deploy it before you're stuck riding it down!

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Puma44 on October 28, 2023, 03:29:24 PM
Thanks Pumpa calibration might be part of my issue

Do you keep CT on or just pop it occasionally like Fugi does?

That Skyyr fellow seems to keep it off after a rest at the start of his dueling

I seem to get a better response if it's popped to reset trim as others have noted then try to manual alittle during the fight with the rotor trim but that is just elevator trim..

Rudder trim starts to get wonky quickly and to try to control both elevator trim on the throttle rotor and rudder trim on a hat on the stick while trying to press another button on the throttle to get the overhead view ....

What about "flying the ball" as it relates to rudder position? Anyone try to keep their ball in the middle?  :joystick:

 :cheers:

Eagler



It depends on the situation, cruising to the next location, bombing, or dogfighting.

Cruise CT

Bombing CT

Dogfight CT usually off.  I like to trim the pitch axis a little nose down to help with that pesky nose bounce issue, i.e. a nose heavy stick.  Additionally, I try to keep glancing at the ball to make sure it’s centered up and I’m not flying with a heavy boot inadvertently  :rolleyes: helping with guns tracking.   

If things aren’t going well after I’ve trimmed several times in different axis, I’ll activate CT and get everything back to near neutral.  And adjust from there.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Kermit de frog on October 28, 2023, 04:04:51 PM
Howdy Kermit

Do you trim all three?

Can you trim to fly hands off?

Do you mess with it during combat or just getting to it?

Thanks

Eagler


Elevator/aileron trim on 4 way thumb switch.
Rudder trim on another thumb switch.

I usually feel the aircraft and trim accordingly.  Mostly done during quiet periods of combat.  Autopilot (level/speed/climb) trims automatically, so just slight changes to those stable settings afterwards for combat is enough.  If I want to turn/roll faster, keep nose up longer or something extreme I'll make adjustments during combat.  Rudder trim is least used, unless something is off, like half my wing :)


Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: save on October 28, 2023, 07:45:43 PM
Can anyone manual trim in AH and fly hands off?

I would think you should be able to for a short bit but I can't do it at all..

But I can't do it in IL2 or DCS either so just wondering if it was me

Thanks for your takes on the subject!  :salute

Eagler

IL2 have a wind coefficient on most servers. That could be one reason.

I never used CT in AH, but I programmed on my stick elevator trim, and it was essential specially for the 109's.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Banshee7 on October 28, 2023, 10:25:55 PM
This is new to me. I literally always fly with CT on. I prefer to KISS…. Keep it simple stupid.  :joystick:
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Oldman731 on October 28, 2023, 10:35:47 PM
This is new to me. I literally always fly with CT on.


Not that anyone should emulate me, but I leave CT on all the time, with two exceptions.  P-38s and Franks are elevator-quick enough that CT slows them down (it's always trimming for a rapidly changing angle of attack, which holds those two back).  Otherwise, you manual trim people, aren't you always having yaw and roll trim issues?  Particularly in 109s, I would think that the torque throws off your rudder and aileron trim quite a bit.

Hey, maybe some day I'll try it.

- oldman
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: The Fugitive on October 28, 2023, 10:48:38 PM
Thanks Pumpa calibration might be part of my issue

Do you keep CT on or just pop it occasionally like Fugi does?

That Skyyr fellow seems to keep it off after a rest at the start of his dueling

I seem to get a better response if it's popped to reset trim as others have noted then try to manual alittle during the fight with the rotor trim but that is just elevator trim..

Rudder trim starts to get wonky quickly and to try to control both elevator trim on the throttle rotor and rudder trim on a hat on the stick while trying to press another button on the throttle to get the overhead view ....

What about "flying the ball" as it relates to rudder position? Anyone try to keep their ball in the middle?  :joystick:

 :cheers:

Eagler

Once Im at best corner speed Ill trim the plane by popping it on and off, but I leave it that way until dead or climbing out after the win. I have enough trouble trying to get angles that there really isnt any tie to play with trim.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Banshee7 on October 29, 2023, 12:00:37 AM

Not that anyone should emulate me, but I leave CT on all the time, with two exceptions.  P-38s and Franks are elevator-quick enough that CT slows them down (it's always trimming for a rapidly changing angle of attack, which holds those two back).  Otherwise, you manual trim people, aren't you always having yaw and roll trim issues?  Particularly in 109s, I would think that the torque throws off your rudder and aileron trim quite a bit.

Hey, maybe some day I'll try it.

- oldman

I've never had an issue in 38s, but it makes sense from what I've read others saying about it.  I've been flying this long using CT...why change now?  Kudos to those that do it, though.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Animl-AW on October 29, 2023, 07:05:01 AM
I use nothing. I forgot almost every trick I knew. And my stick SUCKS.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on October 29, 2023, 07:17:01 AM
Thanks again for everyones input on the subject..

As I have stated before I was using CT and manual trim keeping it on CT most of the time but switching to full deflection elevator manual trim when in the middle of a tight t&b..

That works well on most pilots if they stay level with me and we just go round and round..as long as they aren't in a super turning plane like a zero..

I noticed that better pilots go up more than around and keeping trim out of the extremes help keep the nose up but not to much like I get at max deflection..

Your comments have helped me understand this much better...I hope they educated others as well

 :cheers:

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: mERv on November 01, 2023, 11:42:09 PM
sure, that's what trim is for.  But changes in speed will start to cause changes to flight based on old trim.  Not sure why you'd want to unless you think autopilot is making unnecessary corrections and holding you back a knot or two.
that makes me wonder if toggling CT on/off would help the b24s not bounce around so much coming out of a turn or climb when immediately afterwords you try to calibrate if that makes any sense. The 17's and lancs you can do a 90 degree turn on a dime, snap roll while losing 500' in altitude,  and with a minor throttle adjustment they will stabilize in a matter of second. The 24s and even the 29s will bounce around for 30-45seconds before the stabilize no matter what you do with the throttle.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Shuffler on November 02, 2023, 04:57:23 PM
I trimmed my P38J last Christmas and could hardly get it off the ground. I think I put too many lights.....not sure.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: svaalbar on November 03, 2023, 12:01:41 PM
Only time I ever trim is to avoid compressing in 109s etc

This topic has been interesting because I've asked about trim before for use in combat and usually met with radio silence
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: The Fugitive on November 03, 2023, 03:29:53 PM
Only time I ever trim is to avoid compressing in 109s etc

This topic has been interesting because I've asked about trim before for use in combat and usually met with radio silence

Oh, we didnt think you were still around otherwise we would have kept our mouths shut.     :devil
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on November 04, 2023, 08:09:27 AM
This thread has helped me figure out what's wrong with the way I was using manual trim...I think..

I have a TM1600 for throttle that I have elevator trim on the left side rotor and aileron trim on the paddle wing that is on the front..

When I go to manual trim .. trim is thrown off as aileron trim starts to spin to the setting the rotor was last left at..whereas if it's on a hat say, I would think it is neutral until you press that hat direction

The paddle is a temporary change in aileron trim as soon as you stop pressing the paddle it swings back to a center of some sort..

So I think I need to move things around and put trim on hats which should be interesting as then I will trim when I try to pull the map up or send a check 6...  :joystick:

 :cheers:

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: SNO on November 04, 2023, 10:00:57 AM
My trims are on a hat switch, if you switch off CT or move the hat switch the trimming starts from the position the elevator and ailerons were at the change to manual trim. In manual off the hat switch the trim stays where you adjust to and doesn’t go back to nuetral as it does with the paddle. I tried it on a paddle and didn’t like it.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on November 04, 2023, 10:15:53 AM
My trims are on a hat switch, if you switch off CT or move the hat switch the trimming starts from the position the elevator and ailerons were at the change to manual trim. In manual off the hat switch the trim stays where you adjust to and doesn’t go back to nuetral as it does with the paddle. I tried it on a paddle and didn’t like it.

Thanks SNO ✌️

Eagler
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: DFATITAN on November 04, 2023, 12:51:36 PM
I started turning my CT off and on as necessary during a fight and just trim up my elevator for more nose up/down about six months ago.  It seems to help a lot, especially when I'm trying to get my nose around in a turn or when I want to nose up in a climb fight.  It's definitely helped with my Mossie runs and German planes (still trying to get the hang of them after 20+ yrs).  I have my thumb wheel on my X-56 programmed and doesn't mess with my established mechanics, which aren't much to speak of  :)

I'll have to try the nose down trim to steady the nose bounce in some planes.  I love the KI61 and P-39, but problems steadying for a shot because of the bounce.

>S<!
TITAN
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: GasTeddy on November 04, 2023, 03:07:50 PM
This thread has helped me figure out what's wrong with the way I was using manual trim...I think..

I have a TM1600 for throttle that I have elevator trim on the left side rotor and aileron trim on the paddle wing that is on the front..

When I go to manual trim .. trim is thrown off as aileron trim starts to spin to the setting the rotor was last left at..whereas if it's on a hat say, I would think it is neutral until you press that hat direction

The paddle is a temporary change in aileron trim as soon as you stop pressing the paddle it swings back to a center of some sort..

So I think I need to move things around and put trim on hats which should be interesting as then I will trim when I try to pull the map up or send a check 6...  :joystick:

 :cheers:

Eagler

I regularly forget the whole CT, it's either on or off whole the time. I have also TM16000 with TWCS throttle and manual elevator trim I have programmed TWCS's rocker button 4/5 (https://ts.thrustmaster.com/download/pictures/PCMAC/TWCS/TWCS_PC_Mapping.png).
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: potsNpans on November 08, 2023, 02:47:22 PM
Manual trim on, I like to keep busy. Level flight hands off, speed I find needs to be stable. Older HOTAS are making it harder, but you can cruise for awhile with it.
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: diaster on November 18, 2023, 01:17:17 AM
Can you trim a single engine plane in AH to fly hands off without using an auto level of some sort?

Eagler
i have actually used manual trim to rtb and land, great practice. have done so in RL with a 172
Title: Re: Trimming your aircraft
Post by: Eagler on November 18, 2023, 07:13:04 AM
Thanks ..the info here has helped me with using manual trim more accurately.

Taking elevator trim off the rotor and putting it on a hat has helped a bunch as trim stays set when I kick combat trim off.

I understand it better now realizing trim has to be constantly reset if speed changes.

I can now fly using just trim with the occasional CT pop to reset things if they get out if sync

CT kicks off when I adjust trim with the hat

Just have to get used to the new rudders and I might be able to hit something again

 :cheers:

Eagler