General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 11:37:04 AM
Title: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 11:37:04 AM
I’m not, I wish I would have stuck with it.
Is nose bounce a natural occurrence in RL?
I have to dumb my stick down so much to calm it down that it becomes useless. I’ve had this issue since day 1 (2000) with both sticks I’ve used.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: LilMak on April 26, 2024, 11:47:50 AM
No. Only if you’re over controlling the aircraft or running through turbulence. Scaling is the only way to beat it out of AH.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Puma44 on April 26, 2024, 11:52:31 AM
Only if the elevator is out of trim. Then, a PIO (or nose bounce) can occur.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Skyyr on April 26, 2024, 11:54:38 AM
On most aircraft, no. You can get pilot-induced oscillations (PIO) that feel like nose-bounce; but those are uncommon in most prop planes unless it lacks positive stability or is out of trim.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: LilMak on April 26, 2024, 12:02:52 PM
Only if the elevator is out of trim. Then, a PIO (or nose bounce) can occur.
AH has GIO (game induced oscillations). I actually think it’s intentional.
Toggling combat trim in game can help in some cases because you’re fighting combat trim which is constantly changing while you’re changing speeds. But unlike real planes where you can “feel” your plane is out of trim as much as see it, it’s less so in game.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Puma44 on April 26, 2024, 01:28:06 PM
AH has GIO (game induced oscillations). I actually think it’s intentional.
Toggling combat trim in game can help in some cases because you’re fighting combat trim which is constantly changing while you’re changing speeds. But unlike real planes where you can “feel” your plane is out of trim as much as see it, it’s less so in game.
Agree, and it’s quite frustrating to have an unrealistic feel built in. Bad enough with computer lag. When I’m having an unusually “bumpy” day, trimming nose down and holding the nose in place helps to somewhat alleviate the nose bump issue.
No. Only if you’re over controlling the aircraft or running through turbulence. Scaling is the only way to beat it out of AH.
I’ve tried scaling several times with no real solution for my ham fists. What’s your favorite scaling?
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Vraciu on April 26, 2024, 01:59:41 PM
The nose bounce in AH is unlike anything I've ever experienced in over 36 years of flying from light pistons to big radials, light attack jet (not as a military pilot just to be clear) to heavy jet. I do not recall it in WBs either. It has long been one of the most annoying and frustrating aspects of the AH FM.
Switching from a MS SW to a VKB mellowed it a little, but it is definitely there.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: LilMak on April 26, 2024, 02:02:28 PM
Agree, and it’s quite frustrating to have an unrealistic feel built in. Bad enough with computer lag. When I’m having an unusually “bumpy” day, trimming nose down and holding the nose in place helps to somewhat alleviate the nose bump issue.
I’ve tried scaling several times with no real solution for my ham fists. What’s your favorite scaling?
My scaling has changed over the years and mostly stick dependent. It’s been so long since I’ve messed with it that I can’t give you any real advice. I know there are entire threads about it somewhere on the boards here. I remember my X52 it was probably the best stick I had. It was so accurate all I did was adjust the tiniest bit of deadband. I currently have a tired T16000 and it has spikes which requires more deadband a quite a bit of dampening to counteract the spikes it has. And it still gets me when I’m on the edge of stalls.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Eagler on April 26, 2024, 02:23:21 PM
I don't think I get nose bounce with my warthog ... the stick is set to 100% across the board
RL and gamer pilot question..
When you are in a rope climb do you trim?
If so which way(s)?
Thanks Eagler ✌️
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Tumor on April 26, 2024, 02:24:46 PM
I have to dumb my stick down so much to calm it down that it becomes useless. I’ve had this issue since day 1 (2000) with both sticks I’ve used.
I think I remember Levi stating he never noticed any nose-bounce, at all. He's the ~only~ player I recall ever making such a statement. I can't remember if it was an in-game chat, here in the forums or VOX. That said, this was before the Spit-V got nerfed and I didn't have the experience in it to compare. I figure he was secretly blind and using The Force, but could be he knew something nobody else knew. JMHO.
I don't think you can beat it... you can only calm it down. That was my experience because, boy howdy I tried. :old:
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 03:13:04 PM
Thanks everyone.
Great input.
I used to manually adjust trim years ago. It was a sub-conscience habit of muscle memory. I’ll need to reprogram some buttons to set a rocker button to do that.
Today I’ve just been toggling CT, which by the sound of it isn’t cutting it. I guess I’ve gotten lazy.
I have a 16 yr old x52 that is seriously worn out. I’ve got scaling, dead bands and dampening about as good as it can be. There is still insane over steering the closer I get to center trying to hold a precise shot. Which makes me lose my eva luvin mind. I’ve even slapped it off the mount so pisssed I missed a sure kill shot.
Maybe it was my trimming yrs ago. I could pick where I wanted to hit the target AC. Today its a spray and pray thing.
The fact mentioned that CT is constantly correcting has got to be it. Makes sense to explain over-steering.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Puma44 on April 26, 2024, 03:33:54 PM
I don't think I get nose bounce with my warthog ... the stick is set to 100% across the board
RL and gamer pilot question..
When you are in a rope climb do you trim?
If so which way(s)?
Thanks Eagler ✌️
I’ll try the 100% on my warthog.
In game, I tend to use flaps for better turn performance and leave trimming to the fight approach when trimming nose down for “bump” dampening.
Ref the RL question, the F-15 has an auto trim system the takes load off the controls wherever the pilot places the stick. Safe to assume the same with the F-16, and follow on shiny new jets. In both the F-106 and F-4, there was 3,000 psi hydraulic pressure helping the effort so, no real trimming was needed in a dogfight. Trim was mostly used in formation air refueling, instrument approaches, etc where a light touch was required.
In the F-4, I was taught in Korea to drop the first notch of flaps when going up in the vertical with full AB selected chasing the other guy. Then, stay tucked in close in his deep six and force him to keep going vertical, bleeding speed, and trying to see where I was. Eventually, his airspeed would be pegged and he would start rolling to see where I was, lose lift, and roll off, nose down in AB to regain flying speed. With my flaps already out, there was more controllable nose authority, allowing me to bring an AIM-9 to bear, and send one (simulated of course) up his tailpipes.
The F-106 had elevons (no flaps). So, every approach was a single engine, no flap event. With the huge delta wing, a “Six” could produce one spectacular bat turn. Then, it was nose down in full AB to regain speed, which it did expeditiously. The “ Six” did fast, very well.
Flying Crazy Horse 2 several times, the first notch of flaps produces the best turn rate assistance without bleeding a lot of speed. The Mustang requires constant manual trim in all three axis as flight conditions change. Definitely flys nicer when trimmed up.
Ahhhhh, such fun memories.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Oldman731 on April 26, 2024, 03:39:00 PM
I think I remember Levi stating he never noticed any nose-bounce, at all. He's the ~only~ player I recall ever making such a statement.
I don't get nose bounce. Very old CH Fighterstick.
- oldman
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: BigR on April 26, 2024, 04:25:11 PM
no nose bounce for me ...old CH FighterStick. I do use a bit of dampening because i used to have trouble with "dont move your controls rapidly".
Overall i have found that a bit of scaling and dampening has improved my issues with pulling on the stick as I fire which was causing mini movements. I have never noticed nose bounce at all though.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: RichardDarkwood on April 26, 2024, 04:51:49 PM
I used to manually adjust trim years ago. It was a sub-conscience habit of muscle memory. I’ll need to reprogram some buttons to set a rocker button to do that.
Today I’ve just been toggling CT, which by the sound of it isn’t cutting it. I guess I’ve gotten lazy.
I have a 16 yr old x52 that is seriously worn out. I’ve got scaling, dead bands and dampening about as good as it can be. There is still insane over steering the closer I get to center trying to hold a precise shot. Which makes me lose my eva luvin mind. I’ve even slapped it off the mount so pisssed I missed a sure kill shot.
Maybe it was my trimming yrs ago. I could pick where I wanted to hit the target AC. Today its a spray and pray thing.
The fact mentioned that CT is constantly correcting has got to be it. Makes sense to explain over-steering.
So crazy that there is one setting for the entire game to cover all the aircraft
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Gman on April 26, 2024, 04:59:30 PM
In game, I tend to use flaps for better turn performance and leave trimming to the fight approach when trimming nose down for “bump” dampening.
Ref the RL question, the F-15 has an auto trim system the takes load off the controls wherever the pilot places the stick. Safe to assume the same with the F-16, and follow on shiny new jets. In both the F-106 and F-4, there was 3,000 psi hydraulic pressure helping the effort so, no real trimming was needed in a dogfight. Trim was mostly used in formation air refueling, instrument approaches, etc where a light touch was required.
In the F-4, I was taught in Korea to drop the first notch of flaps when going up in the vertical with full AB selected chasing the other guy. Then, stay tucked in close in his deep six and force him to keep going vertical, bleeding speed, and trying to see where I was. Eventually, his airspeed would be pegged and he would start rolling to see where I was, lose lift, and roll off, nose down in AB to regain flying speed. With my flaps already out, there was more controllable nose authority, allowing me to bring an AIM-9 to bear, and send one (simulated of course) up his tailpipes.
The F-106 had elevons (no flaps). So, every approach was a single engine, no flap event. With the huge delta wing, a “Six” could produce one spectacular bat turn. Then, it was nose down in full AB to regain speed, which it did expeditiously. The “ Six” did fast, very well.
Flying Crazy Horse 2 several times, the first notch of flaps produces the best turn rate assistance without bleeding a lot of speed. The Mustang requires constant manual trim in all three axis as flight conditions change. Definitely flys nicer when trimmed up.
Ahhhhh, such fun memories.
I'm friends on FB with Mark Berent, a Vietnam era F4 pilot, did you ever run into him in the USAF Puma? He described similar things about the F4 in terms of fighting the Mig17,19, and even the 21.
Leviathan here gave me his stick settings when I was flying the Spit5 with him a lot, I'll see if I can find them and post them, but it was a pretty conventional very low at the start of the axis to maxed out on the last one sort of line. Having a "non bouncy" stick set up is so critical to increasing your accuracy while shooting in this game. I like having as much precision as I can program into that area right around the start of any stick pressure, so I can make very fine adjustments quickly to my sight picture/nose position (same thing really IMO). For 2 decades plus I swore by the CH Fighterstick, now I'm using the VKB GF as the Virpil Warbrd is too high by about 3/4 of an inch on a desk/tabletop mount for me. Gunfighter is fantastic, even more precision than the Fighterstick, and I didn't think that was a possibility.
Puma - the "sim which must not be named" just had a F106 mod made for it that looks excellent, haven't tried it out yet myself, but looks like a ton of work was put into it.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 26, 2024, 05:11:18 PM
If you want to observe pio try air refueling.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 05:33:53 PM
no nose bounce for me ...old CH FighterStick. I do use a bit of dampening because i used to have trouble with "dont move your controls rapidly".
Overall i have found that a bit of scaling and dampening has improved my issues with pulling on the stick as I fire which was causing mini movements. I have never noticed nose bounce at all though.
I remembered and changed putting my trigger on my throttle. Had same issue. One of the failures in sniping with a rifle, or hand gun, is when you pull the trigger. Chances are yank that trigger and your round is off target. It takes habit of muscle memory to just use the tip of the finger. Some will tense their whole grip and blow the shot.
Good example I have, On my .50 cal rifle i have two triggers. The front one can set the rear as hair-pin trigger. With no scope and HP invoked I can lay the round center target from 250’. Normal action puts me off center or worse.
Putting my AH trigger on throttle removes multi action when dispatching rounds. I finally remembered I did that about two mos ago. <blank stare> ugh!
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Lazerr on April 26, 2024, 05:42:52 PM
I use a mouse and always have.. never experienced nose bounce.
A mouse dweeb has to think nose bounce has got to be an E killer.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: BigR on April 26, 2024, 06:20:11 PM
I remembered and changed putting my trigger on my throttle. Had same issue. One of the failures in sniping with a rifle, or hand gun, is when you pull the trigger. Chances are yank that trigger and your round is off target. It takes habit of muscle memory to just use the tip of the finger. Some will tense their whole grip and blow the shot.
Good example I have, On my .50 cal rifle i have two triggers. The front one can set the rear as hair-pin trigger. With no scope and HP invoked I can lay the round center target from 250’. Normal action puts me off center or worse.
Putting my AH trigger on throttle removes multi action when dispatching rounds. I finally remembered I did that about two mos ago. <blank stare> ugh!
i tried the trigger on throttle thing a long time ago but never got used to it. It definitely is a good way to get rid of that pull action on the stick though. I may try again.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 07:14:08 PM
i tried the trigger on throttle thing a long time ago but never got used to it. It definitely is a good way to get rid of that pull action on the stick though. I may try again.
Ya, another muscle memory thing. Once in a while I accidentally pull trigger instead, followed my a lot of fowl words. It takes a while, once it clicks its a good option.
I’m pretty much a flyin train wreck in motion.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Gman on April 26, 2024, 09:18:23 PM
I remembered and changed putting my trigger on my throttle. Had same issue. One of the failures in sniping with a rifle, or hand gun, is when you pull the trigger. Chances are yank that trigger and your round is off target. It takes habit of muscle memory to just use the tip of the finger. Some will tense their whole grip and blow the shot.
Good example I have, On my .50 cal rifle i have two triggers. The front one can set the rear as hair-pin trigger. With no scope and HP invoked I can lay the round center target from 250’. Normal action puts me off center or worse.
Putting my AH trigger on throttle removes multi action when dispatching rounds. I finally remembered I did that about two mos ago. <blank stare> ugh!
i tried the trigger on throttle thing a long time ago but never got used to it. It definitely is a good way to get rid of that pull action on the stick though. I may try again.
For years, shooting instructors, even at the best schools out there, focuses SO much on fire control (trigger press), and that being the critical part of making accurate shots, pressing that trigger in just that "proper" way.
Shrek McPhee, the best instructor I was trained by (friend and co worker of AH member WpnX, US army SF/SMU etc), has flipped the script around, as we've ALL been putting the cart before the horse. I'm talking EVERYONE at the higher level small arms fighting/shooting schools, from my alma mater (Sig Sauer Academy), to Rogers shooting school, Thunder ranch - ie everyone, has adapted to this new training method -
Fire control/trigger press is actually irrelevant. Your stance/position, and most critically your grip on your firearm, is what truly matters. Keep that stance/grip perfectly isolated with regards to your sight picture, and I can stand/prone/whatever beside you, stick a pen in your trigger guard, and whack your trigger silly, and you'll shoot the best groups, hits, etc. The focus has now become this - instead of focusing on making a great trigger press, and your secondary consideration being your grip/position, now it's about primarily keeping your position/stance/grip/sight alignment, as perfectly aligned as you can, and letting the trigger press happen as it needs to.
It's the same as shooting in this sim, or any sim - not having your sight picture/alignments be effected by your trigger press.
The idea to move the trigger to your throttle, IMO is actually a good way to get the mentality of what I'm describing. Right hand/stick keeping the best alignment you can do, and isolating the trigger from that hand, in order to have a disconnect from the trigger press physically. IMO after shooting that way for a short time, you would be able to move the trigger back to you right hand stick trigger. Some may not benefit from this as much, but doing it is never the less a valid thing to try in order to see its effect on your shooting.
Great thread, interesting. BigR, you were such a force in terms of E and angles fighting, I remember once you giving me tips on the P51 back in the 13th TAS days, and it did a ton for me back then. Hope to see you in the air some time here.
I'll link in a couple brief videos on this subject that are on Youtube. John McPhee was the best shooting instructor I've trained with, and his emphasis on your grip/stance over the trigger press is demonstrated in a couple vids.
The relevant info is at around 3:44 in this one.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Oldman731 on April 26, 2024, 10:36:49 PM
Nice advice, Gman, thanks.
- oldman
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 10:38:51 PM
For years, shooting instructors, even at the best schools out there, focuses SO much on fire control (trigger press), and that being the critical part of making accurate shots, pressing that trigger in just that "proper" way.
Shrek McPhee, the best instructor I was trained by (friend and co worker of AH member WpnX, US army SF/SMU etc), has flipped the script around, as we've ALL been putting the cart before the horse. I'm talking EVERYONE at the higher level small arms fighting/shooting schools, from my alma mater (Sig Sauer Academy), to Rogers shooting school, Thunder ranch - ie everyone, has adapted to this new training method -
Fire control/trigger press is actually irrelevant. Your stance/position, and most critically your grip on your firearm, is what truly matters. Keep that stance/grip perfectly isolated with regards to your sight picture, and I can stand/prone/whatever beside you, stick a pen in your trigger guard, and whack your trigger silly, and you'll shoot the best groups, hits, etc. The focus has now become this - instead of focusing on making a great trigger press, and your secondary consideration being your grip/position, now it's about primarily keeping your position/stance/grip/sight alignment, as perfectly aligned as you can, and letting the trigger press happen as it needs to.
It's the same as shooting in this sim, or any sim - not having your sight picture/alignments be effected by your trigger press.
The idea to move the trigger to your throttle, IMO is actually a good way to get the mentality of what I'm describing. Right hand/stick keeping the best alignment you can do, and isolating the trigger from that hand, in order to have a disconnect from the trigger press physically. IMO after shooting that way for a short time, you would be able to move the trigger back to you right hand stick trigger. Some may not benefit from this as much, but doing it is never the less a valid thing to try in order to see its effect on your shooting.
Great thread, interesting. BigR, you were such a force in terms of E and angles fighting, I remember once you giving me tips on the P51 back in the 13th TAS days, and it did a ton for me back then. Hope to see you in the air some time here.
I'll link in a couple brief videos on this subject that are on Youtube. John McPhee was the best shooting instructor I've trained with, and his emphasis on your grip/stance over the trigger press is demonstrated in a couple vids.
I'm a former avid deer hunter under the 1 shot 1 kill law.
All my rifles have/had a strap. My stock arm (left) I run through the strap so it one wrap around my arm. This gives me tight stability when I can pull it into my body as the strap tightens as if the gun was part of my arm and body. My trigger hand (right) doesn't even have to really grip to hold the gun, which gives my finger more relaxed soft touch control. Of course heart rate and breathing plays a role. These are things that work for me.
SO I GUESS this goes along with the stability of the stance.
My Colt Python .357 magnum, 6" barrel, was just made for my hand. A lot for people who fire it prolly have the same experience. It's very easy to get that stable stance because of the superb balance. You're not fighting weight as much as you might think. It's got that big nose up kick, you're not going to rapid fire, but that barrel is so damn good your first round is going on target, #2 is just a back up. That round literally goes where I'm looking, scary. That hollow point magnum is a house wrecker.
I've fired guns and hunted since 10 yrs old. So stance to me is just a given, sub-conscience. As you stated most people go straight for the trigger finger and breathing. I don't think of the newbie, it gets left out.
But ANYWAY, ya.... with a twisty stick you're already pulling and holding 2 angle combinations, I eliminate the 3rd by throttle trigger. For me it helps a lot, especially for longer shots. Nose bounce is my enemy.
Chances are, I'll finally get this stick set right and then decide to get the Virpil. <shrug>
Been out of the loop so long I have to dig through layers of memory to start remembering what I used to do, like manual trim. Some replies caused memory triggers. Good input.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 26, 2024, 10:59:19 PM
I don't think I get nose bounce with my warthog ... the stick is set to 100% across the board
RL and gamer pilot question..
When you are in a rope climb do you trim?
If so which way(s)?
Thanks Eagler ✌️
I just toggle CT off in vertical. I have to get back into manual, so I don't have a correct answer. Before my PC got burnt, I was only getting 5-6 hr per week in the air, so my return to normal is a bit longer than normal. I'll prolly get back up to par the day before AH shuts down.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Vraciu on April 26, 2024, 11:51:06 PM
Does it always happen when you fly or just when you're trying to aim at a moving target?
CAS flew two combat tours and he said gunnery was like duck shooting with a .22 while standing in a rowboat in choppy seas.
Usually when I’m narrowing my aim on a moving target, especially when I’m on a 6 because I’m using center stick trying to make a precise shot. For me its stick issues that really trigger it. I get more turn shots because I’m off center. In a nut shell, bad center stick triggering bad bounce in the game combo. For what ever reason worse in a 51, A5 seems better. Lits of varibles that should not be there. Or I just think it shouldn’t. Why I asked. It just doesn’t seem natural. But it sure is aggravating. I prolly lose 30% of my kills due to it. It used to be much worse until Fugi helped me with it. I’ve got game settings about as good as I can get.
There was no bounce in AW. I was much better. I had a feeling it was game induced. Its over done. Probably screws a lot of people up.
I see a lot of films. Some of these guys the sight just lays right on target, as it should, and that’s that.
My point above, I know how to fire guns well. Which makes it more humiliating.
I get most kills in a turn, don’t even see the plane anymore.
If I’m just flying around I don’t notice it, take aim center stick and its almost useless.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: FLS on April 27, 2024, 07:59:22 AM
There is no bounce in a lot of sims, even though you are maneuvering a heavy machine supported by air. Aiming is harder in AH because the flight model is better.
Scaling the stick changes the control inputs. It doesn't change the aircraft response to input. That tells you that the problem is the input. In other words, it's the pilot. A longer stick makes fine adjustments easier but you only need that fine adjustment for part of the stick travel. Scaling the stick is a fix for it's short length.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 08:13:07 AM
There is no bounce in a lot of sims, even though you are maneuvering a heavy machine supported by air. Aiming is harder in AH because the flight model is better.
Scaling the stick changes the control inputs. It doesn't change the aircraft response to input. That tells you that the problem is the input. In other words, it's the pilot. A longer stick makes fine adjustments easier but you only need that fine adjustment for part of the stick travel. Scaling the stick is a fix for it's short length.
My x52 is 16 yrs old. It went to storage in good shape, didn’t come out that way. It seems to spike more closer to center, which is very loose. Went to usb hub, turned off LEDs and that solved a lot. Put pads under the spring to tighten it up. Its just not the same stick. In storage some kind of tacky film attacked certain kind of plastics, headset same thing, other plastics not at all. Very weird. Took the stick apart, cleaned snd re-greased. Everything I did made it better. But center stick is a nightmare. Could be magnets lost some magnetism. I dunno. Had my PC not fried from lightning I’d prolly have s virpil right now. It needs to be replaced. Its just done.
As others stated, it could just be my trim, something I don’t do anymore, but need to get back to manual CT.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Eagler on April 27, 2024, 08:19:43 AM
Plastic they use on a bunch of stuff these days likes to get that nasty sticky crap..from foscam ip cameras to usb thumb drives..
They feel like the plastic is melting ... think it's just part of the throw away and replace with new marketing ppl have been brainwashed into..
Eagler
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 08:29:29 AM
Plastic they use on a bunch of stuff these days likes to get that nasty sticky crap..from foscam ip cameras to usb thumb drives..
They feel like the plastic is melting ... think it's just part of the throw away and replace with new marketing ppl have been brainwashed into..
Eagler
You described it exactly. Its like it starts eating itself. All plastics decay, some dry rot.
I have a friend who is now an exe at BP fuel plant. He explained how they use a oil sludge to make certain plastics. I think its just subpar plastics should at high price. Bean counters ruin a lot of quality.
Basically, this stick needs to hit the dumpster.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 08:54:58 AM
Kinda flipping around subjects. I found this video informative on choice of sticks based on gimbals. Which is the key to best sticks. x52 gimbals ware out. Plastic deterioration probably has the same effect.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Puma44 on April 27, 2024, 09:06:10 AM
I'm friends on FB with Mark Berent, a Vietnam era F4 pilot, did you ever run into him in the USAF Puma? He described similar things about the F4 in terms of fighting the Mig17,19, and even the 21. :D
Puma - the "sim which must not be named" just had a F106 mod made for it that looks excellent, haven't tried it out yet myself, but looks like a ton of work was put into it.
Gman, no Mark doesn’t sound familiar. There has to be tens of thousand who have flow the Rhino over the years. Plus, I’ve slept a few times since then. Seems like anyone who has spent much time in the fighter world has had the opportunity to fly one.
That would be interesting to try the “Six” and the Rhino in that unnamed sim. :D
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: morfiend on April 27, 2024, 09:24:41 AM
If you are using a twist rudder stick when you pull the trigger you give a slight rudder input,it’s difficult to not impart some input. I usually suggest some deadpan on the rudder axis to help reduce this unwanted input.
Open the clipboard and go to the rudder axis advanced setting,where you adjust the scaling and watch the “raw” scaling window and do some trigger pulls. You’ll notice the slider moves and if you watch the raw numbers beside the axis assignment you will see them change. This is what is causing the nose bounce.
Of course if you use rudder pedals you usually don’t have the issue,maybe some slight up and down movement as you pull the trigger but again a little deadpan will reduce or remove this. Deadpan is the center of the axis,think of it like this as you increase deadpan you increase the size of the centering circle from a dime size [as an example] to a nickel to a quarter etc. this can remove the unwanted initial movement that pulling the trigger can cause.
CT can also cause issues as it doesn’t take in consideration the use of flaps so it always has some nose up trim when flaps are deployed which you fight against and this can cause the dreaded nose bounce to happen when you’re trying to shoot the bad guy in the back.
BTW I keep all my sliders at 100% in roll axis,in pitch I have the first 3 from the left at 85,90 and 95 then the rest at 100%,for yaw [rudder] I use some scaling using the first 5 sliders starting at 60% and working up to 100% with both some deadpan and dampening as my 20 yo pedals really need to be replaced and this tends to smooth them out somewhat.
<S>
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: TryHard on April 27, 2024, 09:51:34 AM
I use a mouse and always have.. never experienced nose bounce.
A mouse dweeb has to think nose bounce has got to be an E killer.
As a fellow mouse dweeb I also don't notice any nose bounce but i do remember it with the logitech twisty sticks. My big issue flying with mouse is what do you do about the problem of using rudder controls and number pad keys at the same time for view? Track IR is probably the best way to go im assuming.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 10:13:56 AM
Friends don't let friends use twisty sticks for rudder.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: TryHard on April 27, 2024, 10:35:07 AM
Friends don't let friends use twisty sticks for rudder.
Wait till you hear the A and D keys are my keyboard are my rudder :P
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: The Fugitive on April 27, 2024, 10:56:00 AM
Dose anyone understand the scaling setup in AH and can they explain how it really works?
I, like many before and after me have messed with the scaling system for our joysticks. While I dont really know how/why things work I mess around with the sliders and fly a few flights, them mess with them again, and repeat time and time again until I find something that "feels" good. What Id like to be able to understand is how it works and how its all tied together so I can come at it a bit more logically. Anyone can build a chair trying over and over again until they get it ok, but if you know how a ruler, level, protractor, and a square all work together you can do a better job first shot.
Dead Band we know is a "dead" space in the input of the stick. The higher the slider, the bigger the circle of "dead" space from the center of the stick out. Dead space = zero input.
Damping slows the response of the input. If it takes one second to go from 0 degrees input to full deflection with your joystick (stupid numbers I know :huh), by adding damping, sliding the slider all the way up, you can slow that time down to say 5 seconds for full deflection. Is this damping over the FULL deflection of the axis? Can it be adjusted for say only a certain section of the axis? Say I want to have it slower in the fine movements as Im aiming my shot (instead of jerking the stick around over correcting due to "oldman syndrome" ) and crisp 1-1 input for maneuvering in flight.
Scaling sliders, Ive seen some odd setups with ascending sliders, level sliders, descending sliders and a dozen explanations on what they do or how to use them. Setup are very personal. Some players are very heavy handed (ME! ME! ME!) others very smooth. I have watched films of players and they are so smooth maneuvering for a shot, you can see the "unload" and the burst cuts a plane in half. the only time I come close to that is when I sneak up on a bomber. The rest of the time when they same "cone of fire" I pretty much fill the whole cone!
What are the sliders doing? are they in effect creating a damping effect 10% of the sticks movement to input at a time? On the HTC site it says "It is recommended that you avoid setups that make large jumps in adjacent columns." So if I set the first 3 sliders low to try for a slower input for fine control (if that is how it works :rolleyes:) then putting the other 7 straight across the top will cause an issue, and what would that issue be?
Personally I think "nose bounce" is caused by two things in the game. First, combat trim/on. With the auto trim working to adjust all the time for speed it can put your plane out of trim when your slowing during the battle and going for your shot. As your about to fire you may be in a nose up adjustment and be forced to push over to align your shot but now the combat trim is adjusting again causing you to correct your aim bouncing your nose all over the place. Watch your film diving on a group of bombers who are sleeping. I know my nose doesnt bounce at all in that condition and cutting off a wing doesnt surprise me.
The second I believe is stick adjustment. Some players are atuned to having the sliders all the way up and are very gentle on their stick (these are the guys STILL flying with the MS Sidewinder as they never wear out their equipment :devil ), but Im thinking that number of players is very low. The rest of us need some sort of adjustment to our sticks. some guys either understand the setup, or just hit it right by luck. The rest of us stumble along poking and tweaking it forever never getting that "optimum" setup.
For me Id like to have my rudder movement smooth but not so quick that I can spin a 109 to reverse flight by hitting them full...... my X, and Y axies slow and steady when lining up for a shot but still responsive enough to make a zero dance the Cha-Cha
So ideally Id like it if someone could give me a full explanation of the how/why of the stick scaling process. One so I can fix my scaling better, and two to add to the Help Site I have for others to be able to undstand things in this game.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Lazerr on April 27, 2024, 11:43:57 AM
As a fellow mouse dweeb I also don't notice any nose bounce but i do remember it with the logitech twisty sticks. My big issue flying with mouse is what do you do about the problem of using rudder controls and number pad keys at the same time for view? Track IR is probably the best way to go im assuming.
My left hand is all.over the keyboard. Lots of times I'll throw rudder more than needed and counter that input with some combination of ailerons and elevator input.
I tend to not enjoy fighting people that are really frugal with their E, just because I'm a spaz and I tend to make huge inputs on controls and bleed E like a maniac.
I enjoy the fight from below where those spastic moves plus my decent gunnery can get some cool overshoot kills.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 11:45:42 AM
I don't know how it works in AH but damping in general does not work the same way a curve would. Dampening in electronics circuits provide a slowed response to input, not a reduced response. The effect might be the same if you are making rapid movements though. For example, in a dampening, you move an axis from zero to half it's range in one second and hold it there. A dampening effect would cause it to move from zero to half it's range in 2 seconds. If after one second you reduce the axis back to zero then the circuit would stop where it is and go slowly back to zero.
A curve simply applies less or more input for stick movement but no delay.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Puma44 on April 27, 2024, 11:48:02 AM
It would be very helpful, if those who don’t experience the dreaded “nose bounce” issue would share a screen shot of how their elevator sliders are set up, just for reference. Sharing what works for one, might be the clue for someone else, regardless of where a player’s stick manipulations rests on the scale of “kid gloves to full blown ham fist”. :salute
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: LCADolby on April 27, 2024, 12:12:59 PM
I get way more nose bounce in other sims, AH is super mild if not non-existent.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Skyyr on April 27, 2024, 12:24:46 PM
Sounds like a lot of people had a bad experience with nose bounce 🤔
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 12:51:27 PM
If moving your controls rapidly distorts your attitude, motion, and position, to other aircraft via the net code then I expect some dampening to those controls would help to alleviate that.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 12:54:52 PM
If you can't apply a curve via AH to help with nose bounce then you probably can with the software made for your stick. If not then you certainly can with vjoy and UCR.
You can determine if it's you causing the bounce by using the keyboard to fly and shoot. Does it bounce? If not, it's you.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 01:02:11 PM
If you are using a twist rudder stick when you pull the trigger you give a slight rudder input,it’s difficult to not impart some input. I usually suggest some deadpan on the rudder axis to help reduce this unwanted input.
Open the clipboard and go to the rudder axis advanced setting,where you adjust the scaling and watch the “raw” scaling window and do some trigger pulls. You’ll notice the slider moves and if you watch the raw numbers beside the axis assignment you will see them change. This is what is causing the nose bounce.
Of course if you use rudder pedals you usually don’t have the issue,maybe some slight up and down movement as you pull the trigger but again a little deadpan will reduce or remove this. Deadpan is the center of the axis,think of it like this as you increase deadpan you increase the size of the centering circle from a dime size [as an example] to a nickel to a quarter etc. this can remove the unwanted initial movement that pulling the trigger can cause.
CT can also cause issues as it doesn’t take in consideration the use of flaps so it always has some nose up trim when flaps are deployed which you fight against and this can cause the dreaded nose bounce to happen when you’re trying to shoot the bad guy in the back.
BTW I keep all my sliders at 100% in roll axis,in pitch I have the first 3 from the left at 85,90 and 95 then the rest at 100%,for yaw [rudder] I use some scaling using the first 5 sliders starting at 60% and working up to 100% with both some deadpan and dampening as my 20 yo pedals really need to be replaced and this tends to smooth them out somewhat.
<S>
Yep rudder is clamped good for that very reason. Its too sensitive on my stick. I want rudder when I want rudder, no other time. Another reason I move trigger to throttle. It just removes that issue. X axis (Ailerons?) is heavily scaled, dead band and dampening. Y acis is not touched, I like the snap roll in 51D and A5.
i think gimbal styles are the issue.the style of the x52 wares out. Replacing the white lube/grease made a difference in smoother travel.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Vraciu on April 27, 2024, 01:19:38 PM
I say it is due to Combat Trim. That's the only real difference across the board IMHO.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: The Fugitive on April 27, 2024, 01:21:32 PM
Sounds like a lot of people had a bad experience with nose bounce 🤔
Could you post your stick type and setting for AH? Watching your videos shows that your one of those smooth flyers, it also shows why you have such a good shot. Id be interested in seeing what you use.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 01:25:16 PM
Dose anyone understand the scaling setup in AH and can they explain how it really works?
I, like many before and after me have messed with the scaling system for our joysticks. While I dont really know how/why things work I mess around with the sliders and fly a few flights, them mess with them again, and repeat time and time again until I find something that "feels" good. What Id like to be able to understand is how it works and how its all tied together so I can come at it a bit more logically. Anyone can build a chair trying over and over again until they get it ok, but if you know how a ruler, level, protractor, and a square all work together you can do a better job first shot.
Dead Band we know is a "dead" space in the input of the stick. The higher the slider, the bigger the circle of "dead" space from the center of the stick out. Dead space = zero input.
Damping slows the response of the input. If it takes one second to go from 0 degrees input to full deflection with your joystick (stupid numbers I know :huh), by adding damping, sliding the slider all the way up, you can slow that time down to say 5 seconds for full deflection. Is this damping over the FULL deflection of the axis? Can it be adjusted for say only a certain section of the axis? Say I want to have it slower in the fine movements as Im aiming my shot (instead of jerking the stick around over correcting due to "oldman syndrome" ) and crisp 1-1 input for maneuvering in flight.
Scaling sliders, Ive seen some odd setups with ascending sliders, level sliders, descending sliders and a dozen explanations on what they do or how to use them. Setup are very personal. Some players are very heavy handed (ME! ME! ME!) others very smooth. I have watched films of players and they are so smooth maneuvering for a shot, you can see the "unload" and the burst cuts a plane in half. the only time I come close to that is when I sneak up on a bomber. The rest of the time when they same "cone of fire" I pretty much fill the whole cone!
What are the sliders doing? are they in effect creating a damping effect 10% of the sticks movement to input at a time? On the HTC site it says "It is recommended that you avoid setups that make large jumps in adjacent columns." So if I set the first 3 sliders low to try for a slower input for fine control (if that is how it works :rolleyes:) then putting the other 7 straight across the top will cause an issue, and what would that issue be?
Personally I think "nose bounce" is caused by two things in the game. First, combat trim/on. With the auto trim working to adjust all the time for speed it can put your plane out of trim when your slowing during the battle and going for your shot. As your about to fire you may be in a nose up adjustment and be forced to push over to align your shot but now the combat trim is adjusting again causing you to correct your aim bouncing your nose all over the place. Watch your film diving on a group of bombers who are sleeping. I know my nose doesnt bounce at all in that condition and cutting off a wing doesnt surprise me.
The second I believe is stick adjustment. Some players are atuned to having the sliders all the way up and are very gentle on their stick (these are the guys STILL flying with the MS Sidewinder as they never wear out their equipment :devil ), but Im thinking that number of players is very low. The rest of us need some sort of adjustment to our sticks. some guys either understand the setup, or just hit it right by luck. The rest of us stumble along poking and tweaking it forever never getting that "optimum" setup.
For me Id like to have my rudder movement smooth but not so quick that I can spin a 109 to reverse flight by hitting them full...... my X, and Y axies slow and steady when lining up for a shot but still responsive enough to make a zero dance the Cha-Cha
So ideally Id like it if someone could give me a full explanation of the how/why of the stick scaling process. One so I can fix my scaling better, and two to add to the Help Site I have for others to be able to undstand things in this game.
I can explain the way I understand it. Which could be flawed. It would take a while txt for proper wording.
in a severe crude nut shell
As you said dead bands is much less or no data within that center stick circle size, which you size with the slider.
Dampening puts data flow in slow motion, not real time. This buffers stick jerking
Dampening cuts up the travel circle in many circles. Kinda like songs on vynal record. Each slider controls the sensitivity of each circle space. They start at center and get larger away from center, to outer travel. This is why the sliders should never have a zagged flow. Because you are traveling into the next circle space. It has to be smooth.
No scaling is 100% data flow from center to outer travel.
Thats some pretty raw text, but you get the idea.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 01:35:10 PM
I just tested shooting using the keyboard. There is a very slight movement induced by the recoil but no bounce.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 01:40:19 PM
I say it is due to Combat Trim. That's the only real difference across the board IMHO.
Agreed. But I think another variable is type of stick gimbal. That has s lot to do with data flow and spiking.
There are many variables from stick to stick and player controlling it. Sometime using a usb hub deluvers more orecise power. Even stick LED like on x52 can affect it because they are resource hogs. Pretty, but hogs.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 02:00:54 PM
A mouse doesn’t have physical axis paths/halls crossing at center stick. Its done with 100% data cords..
In sticks where physical parts axis crossing paths (center stick) is where it gets ugly. Interference can occur. Especially when magnetics is involved. We’ve heard of players using aluminum foil shield/barrier on cables blocking data leaks of things like wireless rf. So there are chances of data breaches happening.
Stick gimbals matter a lot.
My take on it.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 02:09:02 PM
If you have a dual stage trigger and want to run your axis through vjoy you could apply a very shallow curve to your pitch axis when the first stage trigger is pressed and held. This would then create very little stick output change for large stick movements so long as the first stage is held.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 02:22:58 PM
If you have a dual stage trigger and want to run your axis through vjoy you could apply a very shallow curve to your pitch axis when the first stage trigger is pressed and held. This would then create very little stick output change for large stick movements so long as the first stage is held.
As mentioned above. I just moved trigger to throttle. Much cleaner. Not as weird as it sounds once ya get used to it. Its like firing a gun remotely, 0 movement. I’m used to it. I tend to not spray n pray as much.
But, ya, thats prolly helpful in some cases to those who don’t want the move. Kind of a bandaid But then it could disturb another issue on that axis. The less data math being done, the better.
I think in terms if streamline and latency.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 02:33:01 PM
Sounds like a lot of people had a bad experience with nose bounce 🤔
What Fugi said.
You have a lucky setup.
A good amount of people would be kicking more butt without it.
Its not a skill issue. Its hardware and correct trim combo. Toggling CT helps, but I need to be more accurate manually. I need to find that honey spot with trim.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Drano on April 27, 2024, 02:56:48 PM
I noticed a lot less bounce when I got a Gunfighter a few years back. Even less after putting an extension on it. This one has an all metal gimbal and the action is super smooth unlike other sticks with a plastic gimbal. It's built more like a machine than a toy.You can adjust tension with a combo of springs and clutches as you like. Very precise. Also not cheap. Plastic sticks all seem to suffer a bit of "stiction" stickiness in their action that is difficult to overcome. It translates into the game as jerkiness. Trying to lubricate them can make things even worse.
All my sliders are 100% in AH. Not scaling in other sims either.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: The Fugitive on April 27, 2024, 03:01:06 PM
If you have a dual stage trigger and want to run your axis through vjoy you could apply a very shallow curve to your pitch axis when the first stage trigger is pressed and held. This would then create very little stick output change for large stick movements so long as the first stage is held.
What is "vjoy"?
How does it work?
Does it work with AH?
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: yipi on April 27, 2024, 03:08:43 PM
I don't have bounce with pitch or roll. The thing I have to reduce down is yaw. I use the VKB software to reduce it down so I don't sway as much
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 03:12:05 PM
It is a virtual joystick and should be seen by AH and anything else. It will show up in your list of windows Game Controllers (set up USB game controllers). By itself nothing is mapped to it and so it does nothing. Download and install. Then you need another program like joystick gremlin or UCR (all free programs) to configure vjoy. You can map real device axis to vjoy buttons or real device axis to vjoy axis. Then use Gremlin or UCR modify the vjoy axis. I'll make a video. ;)
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Skyyr on April 27, 2024, 03:15:35 PM
A good amount of people would be kicking more butt without it.
Its not a skill issue. Its hardware and correct trim combo. Toggling CT helps, but I need to be more accurate manually. I need to find that honey spot with trim.
I don't have a lucky setup. I've used multiple sticks and setups and never had nose bounce. I simply understand how inputs and input software work.
Most of what you see as "nose bounce" is really a form of PIO because of bad advice given on these forums.
You should never use scaling and there are very very few valid reasons to use dampening. These are crutches used to cover up poor input discipline and poor control of the aircraft. That sounds harsh, but it's the reality. By using these, all you do is delay the actual direct input you subconsciously associate with what should be correct. This in turn creates a constant chase of the you (the pilot) trying to correct the response of the aircraft, because your settings aren't a 1:1 correlation of your actual input.
Now some people may try to argue that their stick is broken or whatever and they need some adjustments for whatever reason. If your stick is broken or otherwise unmanageable without raw input, then you're starting with a faulty input base and nothing will work properly. You wouldn't drive with a broken steering wheel, you can't fly with a faulty or inaccurate stick.
Combat trim further exacerbates this issue because it's adding its own inputs while you're fighting with nose bounce/PIO. The pilot gets caught off-guard by the CT input changes and then fights those, in addition to the skewed control input because of scaling and dampening... and voila! You have AH nose bounce.
If you want to test this, then simply pull back on your stick and hold it there while flying. There will be zero nose bounce. Release the stick: no nose bounce. You will only experience nose bounce when trying to actively point your aircraft at something and hold it steady, because your putting input into the system and it's delayed, and now you're fighting it and experiencing PIO. Nose bounce is entirely PIO because players fluffied with their settings to compensate for poor control. This is why you should always use 1:1 control inputs (no scaling) and no/minimal dampening.
Now, if you insist on scaling and dampening, you can reduce nose bounce with more quality sticks, because they're smoother and you fight it less / overcorrect it less, but this is a bandaid because it's just removing another variable from the problem, it doesn't address the core of the problem.
My setup is simple: no scaling, no dampening, minimum deadzone. Combat trim is off.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 03:21:26 PM
I noticed a lot less bounce when I got a Gunfighter a few years back. Even less after putting an extension on it. This one has an all metal gimbal and the action is super smooth unlike other sticks with a plastic gimbal. It's built more like a machine than a toy.You can adjust tension with a combo of springs and clutches as you like. Very precise. Also not cheap. Plastic sticks all seem to suffer a bit of "stiction" stickiness in their action that is difficult to overcome. It translates into the game as jerkiness. Trying to lubricate them can make things even worse.
All my sliders are 100% in AH. Not scaling in other sims either.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
That setup is my plan B. Great to know.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 04:37:53 PM
After I set this up to make this video I realized this specific process has a big caveat, revealed at the end. There may be another way to do this but I haven't spent the time to see. FWIW:
(may be a few mins for hd processing)
https://youtu.be/Fq2DpKAfqNg
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: uptown on April 27, 2024, 04:40:20 PM
When I get to shoot my guns I shake and pee my pants :old:
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 05:05:18 PM
There are a lot of things you can do with vJoy including eliminating the spiking from old sticks/pedals.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 06:25:56 PM
I don't have a lucky setup. I've used multiple sticks and setups and never had nose bounce. I simply understand how inputs and input software work.
Most of what you see as "nose bounce" is really a form of PIO because of bad advice given on these forums.
You should never use scaling and there are very very few valid reasons to use dampening. These are crutches used to cover up poor input discipline and poor control of the aircraft. That sounds harsh, but it's the reality. By using these, all you do is delay the actual direct input you subconsciously associate with what should be correct. This in turn creates a constant chase of the you (the pilot) trying to correct the response of the aircraft, because your settings aren't a 1:1 correlation of your actual input.
Now some people may try to argue that their stick is broken or whatever and they need some adjustments for whatever reason. If your stick is broken or otherwise unmanageable without raw input, then you're starting with a faulty input base and nothing will work properly. You wouldn't drive with a broken steering wheel, you can't fly with a faulty or inaccurate stick.
Combat trim further exacerbates this issue because it's adding its own inputs while you're fighting with nose bounce/PIO. The pilot gets caught off-guard by the CT input changes and then fights those, in addition to the skewed control input because of scaling and dampening... and voila! You have AH nose bounce.
If you want to test this, then simply pull back on your stick and hold it there while flying. There will be zero nose bounce. Release the stick: no nose bounce. You will only experience nose bounce when trying to actively point your aircraft at something and hold it steady, because your putting input into the system and it's delayed, and now you're fighting it and experiencing PIO. Nose bounce is entirely PIO because players fluffied with their settings to compensate for poor control. This is why you should always use 1:1 control inputs (no scaling) and no/minimal dampening.
Now, if you insist on scaling and dampening, you can reduce nose bounce with more quality sticks, because they're smoother and you fight it less / overcorrect it less, but this is a bandaid because it's just removing another variable from the problem, it doesn't address the core of the problem.
My setup is simple: no scaling, no dampening, minimum deadzone. Combat trim is off.
Good post Skyyr
I never used scaling or much of anything else. I only resorted to it when nothing else worked.
There is an issue, the stick was spiking real bad. Using a usb hub and turning of LEDs made a difference. I didn’t have to do that yrs ago. I just used it as you say 1:1. It was since I dragged it out 14 yrs later that it seemed wonky.. Some of the stick didn’t work. Every button was stuck. It took about an hour to break some things free again.
One axis wasn’t working until I moved it around for a bit. It took about a day of use before it got better.
Before using scaling, used hotas software to turn down sensitivity because crossing center in the stick it would spike hard. Which is the only place it bounces, off center no bounce.
I almost threw it away.
What I’m doing is absolutely a bandaid.
I A and B settings before settling on minimal.
X axis and rudder cause bounce, the only things I scale. Just moving the stick past center would bounce, slightest input to rudder it would sway back and forth.
Few weeks ago I reloaded the windows and game, went back to 1:1 no bounce off center, crossing center or rudder still fubar.
I THINK the stick is shot, I’m doing this to make it usable.
Had i had a fresh stick, I doubt I’d have to do anything. This stick wasn’t like this years ago.
When I get back up and running I’ll try manual trim with 1:1. I think CT is an issue.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 06:52:25 PM
I finally got Joystick Gremlin working and it handles the offset when switching axis profiles much better in this instance than URC.
https://youtu.be/LECwfPVxB4c
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 07:13:04 PM
Game sound too loud, deleting that video.
Made a new one.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 07:28:08 PM
Interesting Iron
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 07:29:35 PM
The game sound was louder than me. Couldn't hear me over it. I see that in a lot of youtube videos. If you're going to talk turn down the game sound.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 27, 2024, 07:51:55 PM
In my experience... vjoy is a Trainwreck. I know at least 2 who love it, and their controls are typically a trainwreck. I'm sure results vary, but mine were as stated.
Just sayin
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Vraciu on April 27, 2024, 08:27:45 PM
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Drano on April 27, 2024, 09:02:21 PM
I use vjoy to combine two logitech quadrants to make one 6 axis 18 button device. Use it for RPMs, mixture, etc.
Joystick gremlin was my answer to the problem of having multiple different brands of controllers to map, the logi quads, VKB stick, MFG peds and Virpil throttle. I just have them all set to base profiles in their respective softwares, Virpil's and VKB's are complicated but very powerful. I then have a profile set up in joystick gremlin tying all those devices together that uses the 5 position rotary switch on the virpil throttle to change the mapping on everything just by using that switch. So, 5 different maps on that common profile. I have all the buttons and axii mapped in joystick gremlin. Can go from one sim setup to another just by rotating that rotary switch. Pretty handy.
Then I started using Spad.Next to map MSFS which is a totally different animal. There just aren't enough key commands for some of those planes! Every button, switch and lever there uses a code string to operate it that can be tough to nail down. So, a blank map in joystick gremlin and all that stuff mapped in Spad. Cool thing about that software is it's aware what you're flying in MSFS and will auto select the proper map.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 27, 2024, 09:45:24 PM
In my experience... vjoy is a Trainwreck. I know at least 2 who love it, and their controls are typically a trainwreck. I'm sure results vary, but mine were as stated.
Just sayin
I currently don't use it for anything but like to be familiar with options.
Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. -- Albert E.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Dadtallica on April 28, 2024, 02:56:27 PM
The only plane I get bounce in that is noticeable is the P47. My AH scaling for my X52 is set to a slight curve in the first five and then ramping up a bit fatter between the rest to the end. I also have deadzones built in from MS game controller software.
Ok now I wanna see those axis scaling pictures from everyone to see what you’re all doing. Let’s go…
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 28, 2024, 03:57:23 PM
A curve that covers a full range will be more inclined to induce bouncing when pulling Gs because your stick is in the outer range where a small input returns a greater output compared to a full range linear response. Be aware.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: FLS on April 28, 2024, 04:48:29 PM
Dose anyone understand the scaling setup in AH and can they explain how it really works?
...
Scaling adjusts the amount of input for a portion of stick travel.
A longer stick has less input for an inch of travel than a short stick so it's more precise.
Stick scaling is simply making the stick virtually longer for part of it's travel so it's more precise where you need it, near the critical AOA. It works when you're trimmed for your speed.
If you have a stick extension you don't need to scale. Scaling is a solution to short gaming sticks.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Skyyr on April 28, 2024, 04:50:11 PM
Scaling adjusts the amount of input for a portion of stick travel.
A longer stick has less input for an inch of travel than a short stick so it's more precise.
Stick scaling is simply making the stick virtually longer for part of it's travel so it's more precise where you need it, near the critical AOA. It works when you're trimmed for your speed.
If you have a stick extension you don't need to scale. Scaling is a solution to short gaming sticks.
So, if one has a short stick, and needs scaling, would it be lower straight level line across, not slopes or curves? Example instead of all at 100% something like all at 75%?
If so, could settings not be done and just lower sensitivity in the hotas software?
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Skyyr on April 28, 2024, 05:24:35 PM
So, if one has a short stick, and needs scaling, would it be lower straight level line across, not slopes or curves? Example instead of all at 100% something like all at 75%?
If so, could settings not be done and just lower sensitivity in the hotas software?
No, it doesn't work like that. You would have a massive spike from 75% to 100% at the end of your travel.
You have to manually adjust the curves so they are incremental up to 100%, otherwise it spikes.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Eagler on April 28, 2024, 05:30:39 PM
No, it doesn't work like that. You would have a massive spike from 75% to 100% at the end of your travel.
You have to manually adjust the curves so they are incremental up to 100%, otherwise it spikes.
Ok that's the way I understood it, I thought maybe there was something I missed. I've experimented with countless different settings. There are no bad questions.
I never used scaling before, I experimented with it, but usually didn't use it. This stick has a mind of it's own, sometimes it will stop working until I pull the USB and reboot it. It's got issues. What happens when ya let something sit for 14 yrs.
I'm going to go back to 1:1 and manual trim when I get back up and running, see what happens.
New stick with an extension and no combat trim seems to be the fix.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Drano on April 28, 2024, 07:32:38 PM
There's other factors that cause bounce that curves won't fix. On an older analog stick with pots, if they're dirty your inputs won't be smooth. I used to have it happen wth my CH stick when the little spade connectors would work loose. Heck I've even had that happen on the gunfighter. Gotta watch out for the wire connectors on the PBC working loose. I've had it happen. The gimbal is moving around all the time so gotta figure that can happen over time. The tiny wires can break too. Even the contactless sensors can have issues of there's any pieces of metal stuck on the magnet. I've heard that RF interference from a router set too close can mess them up.
Pretty much anything that's screwing up the signal from your hand movement to the PCB on the stick will affect what's being sent to the PC and your game. So it could be you're just ham handing it or might be something like that.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: FLS on April 28, 2024, 07:58:40 PM
So, if one has a short stick, and needs scaling, would it be lower straight level line across, not slopes or curves? Example instead of all at 100% something like all at 75%?
If so, could settings not be done and just lower sensitivity in the hotas software?
When you set scaling at the advanced tab you see exactly what it does when you compare the raw and scaled bars.
If you over-control when you're trying to aim try using default scaling on pitch and rudder.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Professor_Fate on April 28, 2024, 08:58:23 PM
Thanks ‘skyr’, I appreciate your videos because I learn a lot. Also btw I’m beginning to notice a pattern how ‘the dammed’ 190D drivers try to maintain energy in a turn and burn (if you can get’em there). Though my biggest problem right now is spatial awareness which I believe to be the key to success, but I’m working on that. ;)
Im not a bloody flyer, I’m a sailor.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 28, 2024, 10:21:16 PM
There's other factors that cause bounce that curves won't fix. On an older analog stick with pots, if they're dirty your inputs won't be smooth. I used to have it happen wth my CH stick when the little spade connectors would work loose. Heck I've even had that happen on the gunfighter. Gotta watch out for the wire connectors on the PBC working loose. I've had it happen. The gimbal is moving around all the time so gotta figure that can happen over time. The tiny wires can break too. Even the contactless sensors can have issues of there's any pieces of metal stuck on the magnet. I've heard that RF interference from a router set too close can mess them up.
Pretty much anything that's screwing up the signal from your hand movement to the PCB on the stick will affect what's being sent to the PC and your game. So it could be you're just ham handing it or might be something like that.
Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
That's where using vjoy can help. I don't recall who did one but I believe there is a Joystick Gremlin profile that averages your inputs and essentially drops the spikes. I used it on my 25 year old ch pro pedals and it worked well. I have new pedals now.
<added>You might think this would induce a delayed response, and maybe it does, but it's too short to notice.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 28, 2024, 10:27:10 PM
Any sim that allows zooming the view on an axis can cause disorientation if there is jitter or spiking on that axis. More than a little noticeable.
Don't know if this is the one I used but it appears to do the same:
Interesting AKIron, I have a set of CH pedals that are pretty erratic. Is there any special technique to install and set up?
You need to download and install both vJoy and Joystick Gremlin. Then open that profile in joystick Gremlin. Then use the VJoy axis in AH or whatever. Will take a look at it later today.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 29, 2024, 08:15:29 AM
I did just try that profile. It isn't what I used before but may work well for a jittery axis. If I understand it correctly then I'm not sure about a spiking axis as it creates a moving dead zone rather than averaging to eliminate spikes. I didn't see the effect in my testing. I'm guessing the physical device moves the virtual axis when moving more than 5 units, or whatever dead zone you set, from the center or last moved to and held position. Say you move your pedals half way to the left. A new dead zone is centered around that and held until you move them 5 units either way beyond that position.
I'll connect my old pedals later and see how it works with them.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 29, 2024, 09:06:49 AM
Did some more testing and I see the effect now. It will work well for a zoom view axis. I set the dead zone to 25 and it created 8-10 seeming discreet levels not subject to jitter. Video at 7 ;)
Don't know if you can toggle a Joystick Gremlin plugin on/off like you can switch between remaps. If there is a way to do that it would work well to reduce joystick bounce I think. When you pull the first trigger detent it activates the moving dead zone around whatever position your stick is in.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Drano on April 29, 2024, 09:48:45 AM
Guys, it's just MHO but if you have a jittery axis the best course of action is to fix the cause of the jittery axis first. It'll only get worse and attempting to use software as a fix is just slapping a badly fitting band-aid on the problem. It might even create another problem with laggy or sluggish controls.
@Jimmy, the CH peds are known to have the wires go bad. They're tiny. It might not be obvious as they'll break inside the insulation which is fun to troubleshoot!
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: The Fugitive on April 29, 2024, 10:04:14 AM
Guys, it's just MHO but if you have a jittery axis the best course of action is to fix the cause of the jittery axis first. It'll only get worse and attempting to use software as a fix is just slapping a badly fitting band-aid on the problem. It might even create another problem with laggy or sluggish controls.
@Jimmy, the CH peds are known to have the wires go bad. They're tiny. It might not be obvious as they'll break inside the insulation which is fun to troubleshoot!
Most of my jitters and nose bounce are self induced. I have a warthog stick, Thrustmaster throttle, and CH pedals. The pedals show a bit of jitter in the "raw"" but dead band clears that up. I spent a few hours messing with the settings in game yesterday and felt pretty confident in my new settings. Went on-line to take a few runs and ran into Skyyr so I didnt get many chances to test the nose bounce while shooting :D In one fight against "Quark" I thought I was bouncing the pedals too much and will make another adjustment there and test again.
I have also DLed the programs Iron was talking about to look into those to see what I can do.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 29, 2024, 10:05:33 AM
I broke a wire in my CH Pro Pedals so replaced the pots while I had it apart. Didn't help with the jitter. I wouldn't use a jittery stick for controlling an aircraft but for pedals it was a good solution for a few years.
I'll put up a video showing how to add that moving dead zone plugin after 1pm CDT today.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: FLS on April 29, 2024, 10:44:12 AM
I broke a wire in my CH Pro Pedals so replaced the pots while I had it apart. Didn't help with the jitter....
I've cleaned CH pots and they worked well until they got dirty again. I also have Logitech throttle pots that spike and spraying them hasn't helped.
The in game fix for jitter is damping but as mentioned it's better to fix it.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 29, 2024, 10:47:06 AM
Three pots in the ch pro pedals. One for each of the toe brakes and one for the left/right axis. I figure the jitter is in the controller. I use the VKB pedals now. No toe brakes but I'm happy.
The VKB pedals are $215 but around $50 for shipping. European company with VKB USA site that ships from China.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: yipi on April 29, 2024, 11:02:39 AM
I've had several of the CH pedals. The VKB pedals are non contact so they never need cleaning. Your feet move them up and down instead of sideways so less shifting in the seat. The movement has a higher bit rate so its more accurate
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Eagler on April 29, 2024, 12:08:24 PM
Took me a bit to go from ch rudder knee movements to vkb pedals foot control..still adjusting to it as I had ch peds for decades and the vkb markv for only months
Eagler
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 29, 2024, 01:39:43 PM
That moving dead zone video as promised. May take a few to finish processing.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: JimmyD3 on April 29, 2024, 02:08:48 PM
Thank you AKIron, I appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I'll see what I can get done over the next few days. :aok
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on April 29, 2024, 02:31:40 PM
Glad to help. One thing to keep in mind, mapping a stick axis to vjoy does not prevent you from using that stick axis directly instead of vjoy. Nor will vjoy affect the stick axis. You just won't get whatever effect you applied to it via Joystick Gremlin.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on April 29, 2024, 03:32:37 PM
My thanks to all contributors to this thread, even those I’ve had words with.
This is the community I am fond of
Thank You
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on May 09, 2024, 11:37:27 AM
I went back towards old settings. I only use scaling on rudder. While it eliminated some bounce, center stick is still a PITA. It has always been with this x52 further away from center less bounce.
Part of the issue is snap to center, about ready to remove snap back to experiment. I’m not sure how much that would help since crossing center cross roads has issues. Closer to center demands a different stick handling. Its not the same as outer perimeter. Why scaling help sensitivity, but causes other issues.
That and its a short stick, requiring more limited movement than a longer stem.
All that drivel aside. I’ve heard of real pilots handling of the stick is much more lighter grip, moving much less. To me that’s the only benefit.
Mist pilots these days have almost no experience in applying ACM because dogfights no longer happen nearly as much as the past. So ACM is learned within a game. Someone who flies cargo has no experience in ACM. But they do know how to handle the stick. HOing is not ACM, its playing chicken.
Again, most my kills come in TnB as I’m far away from center.
Bounce is better, but not eliminated, yet. More likely to get at least one kill per flight, as long as I stay away from field guns. I just like flying through them to get a gun hugger. 5’ off the deck auto guns have harder time hitting you.
I think a new stick with longer stem is a better fix. I can’t extend an x52.
Better, but not great.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: The Fugitive on May 09, 2024, 12:09:40 PM
I went back towards old settings. I only use scaling on rudder. While it eliminated some bounce, center stick is still a PITA. It has always been with this x52 further away from center less bounce.
Part of the issue is snap to center, about ready to remove snap back to experiment. I’m not sure how much that would help since crossing center cross roads has issues. Closer to center demands a different stick handling. Its not the same as outer perimeter. Why scaling help sensitivity, but causes other issues.
That and its a short stick, requiring more limited movement than a longer stem.
All that drivel aside. I’ve heard of real pilots handling of the stick is much more lighter grip, moving much less. To me that’s the only benefit.
Mist pilots these days have almost no experience in applying ACM because dogfights no longer happen nearly as much as the past. So ACM is learned within a game. Someone who flies cargo has no experience in ACM. But they do know how to handle the stick. HOing is not ACM, its playing chicken.
Again, most my kills come in TnB as I’m far away from center.
Bounce is better, but not eliminated, yet. More likely to get at least one kill per flight, as long as I stay away from field guns. I just like flying through them to get a gun hugger. 5’ off the deck auto guns have harder time hitting you.
I think a new stick with longer stem is a better fix. I can’t extend an x52.
Better, but not great.
I use to have my stick set-up with the sliders near the top, except rudder which has both dead band (old CH pedals) and a curve. After watching films from Skyyr and others the smoothness of their controls are what I think are needed more than "quickness". Even in a turny bird you dont want to yank hard as you need to save every last bit of energy you can to keep it out of the trees. Smooth I think works better. Sure you may not get those snap shots as often but if you can maintain control at the top of a loop/zoom better than the guy your fighting you get more shots than he will..... now hitting, well thats another issue :)
I've been look into the programs that Iron posted and havent figured them out yet but if I can smooth out my heavy handiness I think it could be for the better.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on May 09, 2024, 12:25:15 PM
Based on my testing of the nose bounce in AH, at least when shooting, it's not caused by recoil. It is being caused by moving the stick slightly before, during, or after pulling the trigger. That's not the same as bounce induced by a hard pull on the stick and a quick release. The nose will bounce some then due to momentum and misalignment through the air stream.
I can help further with getting that joystick gremlin moving dead zone plug in to work if desired. Lemme know which part isn't working. Feel free to pm me.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on May 09, 2024, 12:32:27 PM
I use to have my stick set-up with the sliders near the top, except rudder which has both dead band (old CH pedals) and a curve. After watching films from Skyyr and others the smoothness of their controls are what I think are needed more than "quickness". Even in a turny bird you dont want to yank hard as you need to save every last bit of energy you can to keep it out of the trees. Smooth I think works better. Sure you may not get those snap shots as often but if you can maintain control at the top of a loop/zoom better than the guy your fighting you get more shots than he will..... now hitting, well thats another issue :)
I've been look into the programs that Iron posted and havent figured them out yet but if I can smooth out my heavy handiness I think it could be for the better.
Yep. I can eliminate SOME bounce in different ways, but also causes different negative reactions. Stick handling is the key. A longer stem would make that 3x easier. Ya still have to learn the honey spot for leading shots for an actual strike. Right now a 1/4” movement at center starts bounce. With an extension that would be more like 1”+.
I have to build that soft touch muscle memory. If I had more time to fly I’d prolly already be there. 5-8 hrs per week is a slow crawl. <shrug>
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on May 09, 2024, 12:34:05 PM
Based on my testing of the nose bounce in AH, at least when shooting, it's not caused by recoil. It is being caused by moving the stick slightly before, during, or after pulling the trigger. That's not the same as bounce induced by a hard pull on the stick and a quick release. The nose will bounce some then due to momentum and misalignment through the air stream.
I can help further with getting that joystick gremlin moving dead zone plug in to work if desired. Lemme know which part isn't working. Feel free to pm me.
This is why zi mived trigger to throttle. I’m hitting more often after the move.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: AKIron on May 09, 2024, 12:38:24 PM
There can be much excitement when lining up that killing shot, especially after some hard acm. A certain amount of detachment can help steady the stick.
Zen and the art of the kill.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on May 09, 2024, 12:52:33 PM
There can be much excitement when lining up that killing shot, especially after some hard acm. A certain amount of detachment can help steady the stick.
Zen and the art of the kill.
Exactly. Just like firing a handgun or rifle. Kill it at the range, blow it when the excitement starts. Why breathing and heart rate plays a huge role, detachment. I’m a former avid deer hunter. I was all about long range one-shot one-kill. Same with my Python .357 mag, only have 6 rounds, the first better be on the mark. Ya only need 1 good round from a .357 mag.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Tumor on May 09, 2024, 03:35:50 PM
Exactly. Just like firing a handgun or rifle. Kill it at the range, blow it when the excitement starts. Why breathing and heart rate plays a huge role, detachment. I’m a former avid deer hunter. I was all about long range one-shot one-kill. Same with my Python .357 mag, only have 6 rounds, the first better be on the mark. Ya only need 1 good round from a .357 mag.
Watched a Yuboob vid the other day featuring and old guy (who's still a) Guide in Alaska... I almost fell outta my chair when he said not that long ago, his go-to weapon for Brown Bear protection was a .357... (had to do with a story how he dropped one with a 9mm using ammo from Buffalo Bore)
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: Animl-AW on May 09, 2024, 04:07:38 PM
Watched a Yuboob vid the other day featuring and old guy (who's still a) Guide in Alaska... I almost fell outta my chair when he said not that long ago, his go-to weapon for Brown Bear protection was a .357... (had to do with a story how he dropped one with a 9mm using ammo from Buffalo Bore)
Well, if you know the Python it's a top shelf .357, insanely accurate, balance is superb, nose kick is heavy. Bought mine in 86 for $700, it's in demand at $3k-34k these days, had an offer of 4k. It's hard to find an original like mine. The new ones are just not the same monkey, several changes not to the positive. My all time fav handgun,. It's never going to jam. It will certainly kill a bear. Loud as hell.
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: nopoop on May 09, 2024, 04:16:15 PM
Nah. This won't miss.
(https://i.imgur.com/wLIdL1p.jpeg)
Title: Re: Question for real pilots
Post by: knorB on May 09, 2024, 05:41:25 PM
Watched a Yuboob vid the other day featuring and old guy (who's still a) Guide in Alaska... I almost fell outta my chair when he said not that long ago, his go-to weapon for Brown Bear protection was a .357... (had to do with a story how he dropped one with a 9mm using ammo from Buffalo Bore)
If it's Brown Bear and pistols... see bottom of the pic.