Sounds like awesome fun. Prolly doesn't take much to pork that mind
the WSO seat has seven sections. One of those sections has four subsections and one of those four subsections has a huge section just on the radar alone. It is a lot of stuff.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 12, 2024, 05:52:26 AM
See for yourselves
https://f4.manuals.heatblur.se/
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 12, 2024, 10:46:37 AM
It’s just a little light reading.
For perspective, both had to know the -1 (F-4E) Operating Manual and Emergency Procedures to include the “BOLD FACE”, immediate action procedures that would get you killed if not performed promptly and correctly. Every week before flying, usually Monday morning, all pilots and WSOs had to write out all the BOLD FACE procedures and hand them over to the duty officer for grading. Incorrectly filled out, and you were off the day’s flying schedule. It was rare for one to be filled out incorrectly. Over time, the procedures were hard wired into the brain.
The rear cockpit involved more with the radar controls, weapons computers, etc. Then, there was a -34, the weapons manual, of which there was a classified version and unclassified version.
Then, there was a cluster of rules and regulations manuals that dictated how to operate all aircraft and the specific aircraft in all phases of operation, most which all were developed as the result of some aircraft accident over the years. This collection was so extensive, it was nearly impossible to go out and fly any given day and not unintentionally break a rule that was to prevent an act of buffoonery committed years earlier that result in loss of life and aircraft, from ever happening again. Bureaucracy at its finest.
There was a lot to read and be responsible for. The enormous fun was worth it.
Bottom line: Don’t get caught up in the minutia. There’s far too much to learn and know proficiently. Stick to the basics and have fun with the Phantom.
For perspective, both had to know the -1 (F-4E) Operating Manual and Emergency Procedures to include the “BOLD FACE”, immediate action procedures that would get you killed if not performed promptly and correctly. Every week before flying, usually Monday morning, all pilots and WSOs had to write out all the BOLD FACE procedures and hand them over to the duty officer for grading. Incorrectly filled out, and you were off the day’s flying schedule. It was rare for one to be filled out incorrectly. Over time, the procedures were hard wired into the brain.
The rear cockpit involved more with the radar controls, weapons computers, etc. Then, there was a -34, the weapons manual, of which there was a classified version and unclassified version.
Then, there was a cluster of rules and regulations manuals that dictated how to operate all aircraft and the specific aircraft in all phases of operation, most which all were developed as the result of some aircraft accident over the years. This collection was so extensive, it was nearly impossible to go out and fly any given day and not unintentionally break a rule that was to prevent an act of buffoonery committed years earlier that result in loss of life and aircraft, from ever happening again. Bureaucracy at its finest.
There was a lot to read and be responsible for. The enormous fun was worth it.
Bottom line: Don’t get caught up in the minutia. There’s far too much to learn and know proficiently. Stick to the basics and have fun with the Phantom.
Do you still remember the BOLD FACE procedures to this day?
And thanks for the input sir!
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 12, 2024, 11:45:09 AM
Do you still remember the BOLD FACE procedures to this day?
And thanks for the input sir!
It’s been a couple of years since my last Rhino ride (Sept 1987) but, could probably muddle thru if a bold face sheet was placed in front of me. Recently, found the 3X5 index cards I used in Phantom RTU to memorize the BOLD FACE. Passed them on to my son who has assumed the keeper of family legacies role.
Basically, what you will encounter in the DCS version is just a hand full of grains, in a bucket of sand.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 12, 2024, 05:38:48 PM
My crewed backseater, “Hooter” and I, refueling on a deployment from Osan AB, ROK to Clark AFB, PI.
Thanks for the pic share
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 12, 2024, 05:52:36 PM
Hope we get the C model eventually. I want to smear some oily black smoke on the sky.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 12, 2024, 06:07:52 PM
The DCS manual for the F4 is 816 pages. I usually have the manuals printed and spiraled which costs around $60-70. I cringe at the prospect of 816 pages
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 12, 2024, 06:19:44 PM
It’s been a couple of years since my last Rhino ride (Sept 1987) but, could probably muddle thru if a bold face sheet was placed in front of me. Recently, found the 3X5 index cards I used in Phantom RTU to memorize the BOLD FACE. Passed them on to my son who has assumed the keeper of family legacies role.
Basically, what you will encounter in the DCS version is just a hand full of grains, in a bucket of sand.
Since you posted a refueling pic.....
any tips on ques for lining up that nozzle?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 13, 2024, 12:54:24 AM
Assuming the flight modeling is accurate, the Rhino’s pitch axis will be sensitive due to the all flying stabilator. It took some time to get use to and smooth down the resulting PIOs.
My first AR was in the Phantom. I was still getting the pitch axis smoothed out. So, expect that to be an element of frustration.
Approach the boom, level and trimmed, to the pre contact position (about a fuselage length) from the boom tip. Align your fuselage with the yellow stripe on the tanker’s belly. Position yourself vertically, so the boom tip will hit you between the eyes when moving to the contact position (hook up). Yeah, it’ll be way uncomfortable, even in a cartoon jet. When the boomer clears you to the contact position, move forward slowly and deliberately. Look past the approaching boom tip to reference the fore/aft and up/down lights located along the yellow strip on the tanker belly. Make small, controlled changes to illuminate the “Captain Bars” located in the middle of the reference lights. With “Captain Bars” both illuminated, you are in the correct position for boom hookup. Looking up at the boom, you will also see a green stripe with a yellow circle in the middle of it. The boom shroud should split the yellow circle (commonly referred to as “split the apple”) when in the correct position. As you are working toward this perfect position, the boomer is flying the boom tip at your windscreen. As it gets scary close, the boom will fly around your canopy and insert in the refueling receptacle. When a correct pressure connection is achieved, the refueling lights on the front canopy bow will illuminate, for another reference. Now, all you have to do is fly a smooth formation position with the tanker, constantly referencing the belly lights and the apple. Remember to relax, wiggle you toes, and trim. As you take on fuel, the cg will change and require trim adjustments. When the required fuel load is onboard, the boomer will advise and clear you to disconnect.
Depress the AR disconnect button on the stick, note the canopy bow AR lights, and slowly reduce power as you fly down and back to clear the tanker. Pretty simple, eh?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 13, 2024, 09:02:55 AM
I've found air refueling easier to make initial contact with the boom rather than the basket but harder to maintain that boom contact throughout a refuel. Some say there is/was a locking mechanism with the boom that would resist a certain amount of pressure making it easier to stay connected irl but not in the game.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 13, 2024, 09:06:08 AM
The A-10 is not a fly by wire airplane, and those are harder to air refuel, but the refuel port on the A-10 is just in front of the canopy. You want to learn positioning for boom refueling it's probably the easiest.
I think it took me 30 - 40 hours of real time practice to be able to do this consistently. After I got that down doing it in the F-18 seemed almost automatic.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: edge12674 on May 13, 2024, 09:36:33 AM
Thanks for sharing Puma! Really looking forward to this.
My old squadmate from LCA taught me DCS and we fly together weekly. Since I specialized in the Apache CP/G while he flew, we are going to switch it around in the F-4. He will be my WSO and I will fly him around.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 13, 2024, 10:05:12 AM
I've found air refueling easier to make initial contact with the boom rather than the basket but harder to maintain that boom contact throughout a refuel. Some say there is/was a locking mechanism with the boom that would resist a certain amount of pressure making it easier to stay connected irl but not in the game.
Aircraft with the probe have a mechanical connection setup. The tip of the refueling boom has a metal ring or ridge around it. The receiver aircraft receptacle has a set of clamps that grab the boom and make a positive pressure connection, i.e. male and female (I figure most of you are already thinking along those lines). 😆 When fuel off load is complete, the receiver pilot depresses the AR disconnect button on the stick and the clamps release the boom. This is the normal method. If there’s a malfunction with the receiver’s receptacle, or other emergency situation, a manual, brute force disconnect can be made by reducing power and flying down and back to force the disconnect. Additionally, if the boomer doesn’t like what’s going on, he/she can command a disconnect from that end.
All sorts of potential for bad things to happen but, not very often.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 13, 2024, 03:55:21 PM
Assuming the flight modeling is accurate, the Rhino’s pitch axis will be sensitive due to the all flying stabilator. It took some time to get use to and smooth down the resulting PIOs.
My first AR was in the Phantom. I was still getting the pitch axis smoothed out. So, expect that to be an element of frustration.
Approach the boom, level and trimmed, to the pre contact position (about a fuselage length) from the boom tip. Align your fuselage with the yellow stripe on the tanker’s belly. Position yourself vertically, so the boom tip will hit you between the eyes when moving to the contact position (hook up). Yeah, it’ll be way uncomfortable, even in a cartoon jet. When the boomer clears you to the contact position, move forward slowly and deliberately. Look past the approaching boom tip to reference the fore/aft and up/down lights located along the yellow strip on the tanker belly. Make small, controlled changes to illuminate the “Captain Bars” located in the middle of the reference lights. With “Captain Bars” both illuminated, you are in the correct position for boom hookup. Looking up at the boom, you will also see a green stripe with a yellow circle in the middle of it. The boom shroud should split the yellow circle (commonly referred to as “split the apple”) when in the correct position. As you are working toward this perfect position, the boomer is flying the boom tip at your windscreen. As it gets scary close, the boom will fly around your canopy and insert in the refueling receptacle. When a correct pressure connection is achieved, the refueling lights on the front canopy bow will illuminate, for another reference. Now, all you have to do is fly a smooth formation position with the tanker, constantly referencing the belly lights and the apple. Remember to relax, wiggle you toes, and trim. As you take on fuel, the cg will change and require trim adjustments. When the required fuel load is onboard, the boomer will advise and clear you to disconnect.
Depress the AR disconnect button on the stick, note the canopy bow AR lights, and slowly reduce power as you fly down and back to clear the tanker. Pretty simple, eh?
Thanks for the tips Puma, Much appreciated sir! <S>
Go forth and pass gas with style. :bolt: [ Invalid YouTube link ] Another thing to keep in mind. The KC-135 has “soft” boom. In other words, it is hand flown without hydraulic assist. As such, the receiver will have more of a tendency to float around the perfect AR position, making it a bit more work to do well. The KC-10 (and assume the KC-46) has 3,000 psi hydraulic pressure assist for the boomer. This makes AR a less work intensive event once hooked up. If the boomer doesn’t like where the receiver is drifting to, it’s a simple matter of dragging the receiver into position. The older tankers would just do an emergency disconnect if the receiver was doing something squirrelly and hope there wasn’t a mid air.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: save on May 14, 2024, 03:14:58 AM
On a side note : I remember a Swedish pilot told he used to hold the flight stick much lower to reduce PIO during in-flight refueling.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 14, 2024, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: save link=[center
[/center]topic=409298.msg5424203#msg5424203 date=1715674498] On a side note : I remember a Swedish pilot told he used to hold the flight stick much lower to reduce PIO during in-flight refueling.
Definitely a technique. Depending on which jet, wonder if the AR disconnect button was within reach? After doing many ARs, it became easier to relax, hook up, take on gas, disconnect, and go on about the day’s mission. It became more routine, always with the potential for a bad day lurking in the background.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 14, 2024, 05:24:05 PM
In DCS the tankers don't have a person per say refueling you. The boom extends and you fly into it. I was just looking for tips on lining it up. The tips I got are great!
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 14, 2024, 06:09:50 PM
There is talk that the in work C-130 paid mod will have a human boomer. I didn't know the C-130 supported a boom for refueling. Perhaps they meant the aircraft can be flown by a human while it refuels via drogue.
Yeah, the KC-130 doesn't have a boom.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 14, 2024, 08:08:33 PM
In DCS the tankers don't have a person per say refueling you. The boom extends and you fly into it. I was just looking for tips on lining it up. The tips I got are great!
Understand. That’s pretty much how it works out there, with a boomer to try and make bad things stop happening, like the AWACS hamfist in the video below.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 16, 2024, 08:50:15 AM
A training campaign like this would be great for AH if support was added.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 16, 2024, 10:25:55 AM
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Eagler on May 17, 2024, 07:32:08 AM
How easy a target is an air refueler?
Do they usually have an escort?
Seems like they would be a major strategic target in a real conflict
Eagler
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 17, 2024, 08:41:53 AM
Seems like they would be a major strategic target in a real conflict
Eagler
A tanker is basically a sitting duck, an easy target.
A tanker, AWACS, and the like, are considered “high value” assets in a combat situation. As such, they are typically back behind the active conflict and depending the scenario, may have some sort of escort. The AWACS especially because it’s the long range eyes & ears, and would be an important first objective to eliminate.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 17, 2024, 09:43:19 AM
Pretty fragile too. I rubbed one with my F-14 once and they all hit the silk. :D
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 17, 2024, 09:55:38 AM
A tanker is basically a sitting duck, an easy target.
A tanker, AWACS, and the like, are considered “high value” assets in a combat situation. As such, they are typically back behind the active conflict and depending the scenario, may have some sort of escort. The AWACS especially because it’s the long range eyes & ears, and would be an important first objective to eliminate.
Puma sir what was your squadron? I want to see if there's a livery for it.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 22, 2024, 03:21:04 PM
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 23, 2024, 11:30:09 AM
There is a free F-106 done by VSN. VSN does pretty good work imo and this one looks pretty good. Of course I have no idea how realistic. It does carry the Genie.
There is a free F-106 done by VSN. VSN does pretty good work imo and this one looks pretty good. Of course I have no idea how realistic. It does carry the Genie.
I'm sure your imagination can come up with something that could go wrong with an unguided rocket with a 6 mile range and a nuclear warhead.
Kinda like that nuke that got dropped off North Carolina that had like 6 fail safes and all but one failed.
Well, as a mission ready F-106 pilot in the day, and qualified via the Nuclear Surety Program, I’ll take exception to your statement. There were endless, stringent fail safes, involved before even taking off with the Genie. It was carried internally. Therefore, it couldn’t “fall off” the aircraft. We were dead serious about carrying and employing the “Great White Hope” against Russian bomber formations coming over the polar cap to bomb our cities and bases (with our families there). We were the last line of defense.
If I remember correctly, the North Carolina incident involved a B-52 and tanker midair, in flight breakup, and the B-52’s internally carried nuke(s) falling out of the wreckage. I’m sure someone will quickly chime in the the particulars here.
Point being, the comparison is apples to lug nuts with a dose of imagination thrown in. :salute
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 23, 2024, 12:54:43 PM
No ginormous blast or mushroom cloud in DCS but the damage radius is yuge. You have to get a radar lock before firing it.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: hazmatt on May 23, 2024, 01:08:09 PM
Well, as a mission ready F-106 pilot in the day, and qualified via the Nuclear Surety Program, I’ll take exception to your statement. There were endless, stringent fail safes, involved before even taking off with the Genie. It was carried internally. Therefore, it couldn’t “fall off” the aircraft. We were dead serious about carrying and employing the “Great White Hope” against Russian bomber formations coming over the polar cap to bomb our cities and bases (with our families there). We were the last line of defense.
If I remember correctly, the North Carolina incident involved a B-52 and tanker midair, in flight breakup, and the B-52’s internally carried nuke(s) falling out of the wreckage. I’m sure someone will quickly chime in the the particulars here.
Point being, you’re comparing apples to lug nuts with a dose of imagination thrown in.
No. I'm stating my opinion. It's like nuclear power. I love nuclear power, as long as the reactor is a few hundred miles away from me. If you wanted to build one in my back yard, I wouldn't care how many fail safes there were, I wouldn't want it in my back yard. My opinion about flying around with a plane carrying a nuclear rocket is the same. Like I said it is my opinion. You have yours, I have mine :)
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 23, 2024, 02:17:44 PM
Well, as a mission ready F-106 pilot in the day, and qualified via the Nuclear Surety Program...
Oh lawdy, haven't heard "Nuke Surety Program" in a long, long time. That with PRP, oh, and SAC, was the bane of my existence for over a decade. Oh how I hated that stuff. Ya I know, gotta have it, etc... but man. As a junior peon enlisted guy, the suckage brought on by that stuff was unreal.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 23, 2024, 09:56:43 PM
Oh lawdy, haven't heard "Nuke Surety Program" in a long, long time. That with PRP, oh, and SAC, was the bane of my existence for over a decade. Oh how I hated that stuff. Ya I know, gotta have it, etc... but man. As a junior peon enlisted guy, the suckage brought on by that stuff was unreal.
:rofl We were a “tenant unit” on a SAC base. They pretty much hated us with gusto, especially when blowing by their Buff & Tanker alert pads in full AB……setting off their proximity alarms, which had all the COPS piling out of their shelters. :bolt:
Had SAC missle guy next door. Really felt bad for him. They abused him like a rented mule.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 24, 2024, 06:37:43 AM
:rofl We were a “tenant unit” on a SAC base. They pretty much hated us with gusto, especially when blowing by their Buff & Tanker alert pads in full AB……setting off their proximity alarms, which had all the COPS piling out of their shelters. :bolt:
Had SAC missle guy next door. Really felt bad for him. They abused him like a rented mule.
Ya. That's SAC, nobody was safe... you got abused. That's why Lemay's approach was so devastating to our enemies, he was jealous he wasn't the meanest bastard on the block.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Tumor on May 24, 2024, 01:08:39 PM
We have a young man in our group who is active duty Air Force who got the re-fuel attempt his first try.
Tumor got it his first try at well but has to have the attitude hold set up i believe he was sayin.
https://youtu.be/1nvoSfZaZsw
First try in the F4... 2nd try in the whole freekin game. But I only connected for a couple seconds. The Virple stick made it much smoother though.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 24, 2024, 01:49:31 PM
Great job. Easier to connect with the boom than the basket but harder to stay connected with the boom, imo. It's still very hard to do for both. Even harder for the non fly-by-wire.
For the guy who can air refuel inverted, try that in an F-16. ;)
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 24, 2024, 02:58:16 PM
I was able to connect but not stay connected long. Seat adjustment didn't help me see the positioning lights near the nose of the tanker. Don't really need them with Jesters help I think. BTW there's no collision detection between the boom/basket and the aircraft but between the airplanes themselves a slight bump is usually calamitous.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 24, 2024, 03:52:48 PM
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 24, 2024, 05:29:07 PM
I enlisted in August of '73. The handwriting was on the wall. Our part in that war was coming to an end. Violations of 35-10 standards had been mostly ignored in Southeast Asia. As the troops came home grooming standards became more rigidly enforced. Drug sniffing dogs more frequently patrolled the halls of the dorms with Skynyrd booming behind every other door. All of that faded. That the killing and dying came to an end was good. Shortening mustaches, not so much.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 25, 2024, 10:15:58 AM
Translating the F4 manual to real time setup and usage can be a quest sometimes.
I finally got it done though and I am able to track/lock targets from the WSO seat now. Just as long as the dude up front has the right armament selected.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: hazmatt on May 25, 2024, 10:24:23 AM
Translating the F4 manual to real time setup and usage can be a quest sometimes.
I finally got it done though and I am able to track/lock targets from the WSO seat now. Just as long as the dude up front has the right armament selected.
Is the manual setup like a NATOPS manual or is it like a manual to a complex game?
From one of the videos I watched it sounds like Jester needs to ST*U. Sounds like he's constantly blabbing.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 25, 2024, 11:12:23 AM
From the Jester menu you can adjust his verbosity.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 25, 2024, 09:57:34 PM
From the Jester menu you can adjust his verbosity.
Just loaded the F-4E day before yesterday. A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 26, 2024, 09:25:39 AM
Just loaded the F-4E day before yesterday. A yappy back seater like Jester wasn’t popular or fun to fly with, more of an unnecessary distraction than anything else.
I will remember that as I am strictly a WSO cartoon pilot
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 26, 2024, 05:32:04 PM
I don't know about the F-4E but the wizzo seat in the F-14 is more learnin' than the front seat imo. I dipped my toes but the water was too cold and deep. And I know a thing or two about radar.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 26, 2024, 05:49:15 PM
I don't know about the F-4E but the wizzo seat in the F-14 is more learnin' than the front seat imo. I dipped my toes but the water was too cold and deep. And I know a thing or two about radar.
It is a lot but I am getting the hang of it
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 26, 2024, 08:46:06 PM
The level of switchology detail is amazing. Try not to get too deep in all of that. Focus on flying and employing. The schoolhouse for 2nd Lts right out of pilot training was six months long, a month or so of ground school, another in the simulator, and then to the jet. Very complex and takes a great deal of training. The schoolhouse for previous fighter guys was about half that length.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 27, 2024, 07:51:39 AM
The level of switchology detail is amazing. Try not to get too deep in all of that. Focus on flying and employing. The schoolhouse for 2nd Lts right out of pilot training was six months long, a month or so of ground school, another in the simulator, and then to the jet. Very complex and takes a great deal of training. The schoolhouse for previous fighter guys was about half that length.
Did Heatblur capture the immersion level needed for the F4?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 27, 2024, 08:56:23 AM
Did Heatblur capture the immersion level needed for the F4?
To an extent. The multitude of physiological aspects are obviously hard to simulate. For instance, the Rhino air conditioning was pretty much non existent on the ground but, would do well at 20,000’. Imagine the effect of that in Egypt with the temperature on the ground of 120 degrees. Then, the flight gear (flight suit, g suit, parachute harness, ejection seat leg garters, 5 point harness, etc, etc) each had their own level of effect on “comfort”. All part of the reality that simulation can only go so far to replicate.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 27, 2024, 09:55:59 AM
VR of course for the visuals. Then maybe strap yourself in with some tie down straps and turn up the thermostat. :D
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Animl-AW on May 27, 2024, 10:00:21 AM
Gud lord!
All this just to fly?
This is way over the top. This could also been posted under the other sim posts .
But no dickwood being who he is thrives on as much damage and negative attention as possible.
However, thanks for proving that sim is a major PITA and how easy it is to fly almost any other sim.
The ither non-AH thread is slowing so start another? This is dipshtville Geezuz!
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 27, 2024, 10:16:00 AM
Imagine the effect of that in Egypt with the temperature on the ground of 120 degrees. Then, the flight gear (flight suit, g suit, parachute harness, ejection seat leg garters, 5 point harness, etc, etc) each had their own level of effect on “comfort”. All part of the reality that simulation can only go so far to replicate.
All so that you can go up and get shot at by SAMs. That's a hard day at the office. ;)
Did you fly the E model or an earlier version?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 27, 2024, 10:16:57 AM
Exactly, especially the thermostat. Never came back from flying with a dry flight suit.
Nothing to see here. You can move along.
Reminder, this is AH bbs, DCS needs to move along. I am NOT out of line. DCS players are. You have a thread, use it.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 27, 2024, 10:29:29 AM
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Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Animl-AW on May 27, 2024, 10:36:24 AM
If the masses had a say in a vote, you and this would be gone, yesterday. You only have a fan club if other dcs players.
Again, you are under the shallow notion that its just me. No wonder you hate people, its the responses you cause yourself from them is what you really hate.
Standing in that report button? How many times have you stood on that due to your own actions?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 27, 2024, 10:47:01 AM
Sig line.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Animl-AW on May 27, 2024, 10:50:06 AM
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on May 27, 2024, 10:53:01 AM
Sig line.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 27, 2024, 01:18:07 PM
I just set up the front seat and got in some test flights.
took out two migs, one per flight. Was able to land one time out of two attempts.
Thanks, Puma, for putting that in perspective. The noise Heatblur simulates the afterburner kicking in is amazing so I cannot imagine how that was in real life.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 27, 2024, 01:29:21 PM
I just set up the front seat and got in some test flights.
took out two migs, one per flight. Was able to land one time out of two attempts.
Thanks, Puma, for putting that in perspective. The noise Heatblur simulates the afterburner kicking in is amazing so I cannot imagine how that was in real life.
The acceleration when burners are selected doesn’t feel quite as aggressive but, it has been a couple of years. The Rhino has a “soft” burner light vs the “hard” light of the F-106, meaning the Six produced a significantly loud and instant, window rattling, BOOM when lit. The Rhino, not so much. Not the BOOM but, loud enough.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on May 29, 2024, 05:05:20 PM
It's been repeated ad nauseam that we need a DCS Vietnam terrain but it's becoming increasingly needful. Especially with the A-6, A-7, and F-100 on the horizon. Even the F4U Corsair will be welcomed. Campaign developers will have a heyday.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Tumor on May 29, 2024, 11:52:41 PM
It's been repeated ad nauseam that we need a DCS Vietnam terrain but it's becoming increasingly needful. Especially with the A-6, A-7, and F-100 on the horizon. Even the F4U Corsair will be welcomed. Campaign developers will have a heyday.
Ahem. And the F-8. Shame on you for not mentioning the F-8 (as distant that horizon is). ;)
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 30, 2024, 02:54:51 PM
The acceleration when burners are selected doesn’t feel quite as aggressive but, it has been a couple of years. The Rhino has a “soft” burner light vs the “hard” light of the F-106, meaning the Six produced a significantly loud and instant, window rattling, BOOM when lit. The Rhino, not so much. Not the BOOM but, loud enough.
Puma, When approaching the tanker do you come in level with it or from underneath it?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on May 30, 2024, 03:11:36 PM
Puma, When approaching the tanker do you come in level with it or from underneath it?
Approach it level. Technique I was taught, drive straight at the boom like it’s going to tap you between the eyes. When it gets scary close, the boomer will fly it around your canopy and up to plug into your receptacle. All of this is done at a slow, methodical pace. Ideally, when the two Captain’s bars on the belly of the tanker are illuminated, you’re in the perfect position. Not sure how DCS does this part. If the “boomer” doesn’t fly it around your canopy, it may require offsetting and driving in. Coming up and in from below complicates the process.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on May 30, 2024, 03:36:02 PM
Approach it level. Technique I was taught, drive straight at the boom like it’s going to tap you between the eyes. When it gets scary close, the boomer will fly it around your canopy and up to plug into your receptacle. All of this is done at a slow, methodical pace. Ideally, when the two Captain’s bars on the belly of the tanker are illuminated, you’re in the perfect position. Not sure how DCS does this part. If the “boomer” doesn’t fly it around your canopy, it may require offsetting and driving in. Coming up and in from below complicates the process.
Thanks you sir. I was thinking of the level approach
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: RichardDarkwood on June 16, 2024, 04:54:02 PM
Dive toss bombing versus old school aces high bombing?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: icepac on June 17, 2024, 09:25:46 AM
Dive toss bombing versus old school aces high bombing?
Dive toss was a great concept, i.e. using the radar for accurate ranging to the ground target. The system required a lot of maintaining. If on any given day, the radar was “glitchy” which was almost a daily occurrence, the crew had to use manual as a backup. When tuned up properly, dive toss made for very accurate bomb deliveries. The problem for crew was required semi annual “dive toss training events”. There was a slew of different training events (commonly referred to as squares) to accomplish every half year. If a pilot or WSO didn’t have all the squares filled at the end of the half, that was a big deal, resulting in more paperwork.
So, back in the day there was the Great Dive Toss Scandal. The dive toss system rarely ever worked well enough to be effective, or even come on line during flight. So, crews were routinely “pencil whipping” completed dive toss events when manual bombing was used for acceptable bomb scoring. This became a somewhat accepted mode of completing dive toss squares as a result of frustration when dive toss seldom worked properly. Soon, the problem elevated through the chain of command, and the Great Dive Toss Scandal was born.
Fortunately, this was years before my time in the Rhino. Dive Toss was an ok system but, when it came down to it, manual bombing was the preferred method, since dive toss would sometimes decide to quit working part way down the chute to bomb release. One could be fairly confident the bomb was going to come off the jet at the correct time, in manual.
I imagine in DCS, Dive Toss works perfectly every time.
No it does not work every time.
I come in at a steep 45 degree angle. Halfway down to target I put it in afterburn and the release as I am pulling away.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Animl-AW on June 17, 2024, 06:35:54 PM
Interesting thread on dcs refusing refunds for broken products, and bleak future. According to those NOT selling it in AH bbs, leaving out details, some good points and spending warnings. Basically reality
ED - until things are resolved with Razbam, it's unethical to continue selling the Razbam modules. https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/1d8hty5/ed_until_things_are_resolved_with_razbam_its/?chainedPosts=t3_1bwcart
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Animl-AW on June 17, 2024, 06:46:09 PM
Another point I found, ED is using ED money to fund private aircraft collections......which means it's not used for dev. May explain the real reason for not paying bills. They sound like rock stars on coke about to blow it all.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on June 17, 2024, 08:17:36 PM
I come in at a steep 45 degree angle. Halfway down to target I put it in afterburn and the release as I am pulling away.
Try saving the AB until you’ve rotated the pitch angle toward the horizon. Accelerating downhill could be part of the issue with DT not working. Also, drop from a stabilized dive angle. With that much acceleration and pitch rotation, there’s a lot more calculating for the squirrel cage to accomplish. Never would have considered lighting the burners diving at the ground, low altitude. That’s a lot of closure rate with a hard surface, and as we all know, the ground always wins.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on June 17, 2024, 09:01:37 PM
Could you have ever toss bombed a tac-nuke in F-4? Did you train for that?
Would you have survived?
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: The Fugitive on June 17, 2024, 09:31:24 PM
I thought a toss bomb would be released on the up hill part of the flight path. After "tossing" the bomb upward you finish the top of your loop or upward path roll over, hit the AB and get out of dodge before the bomb reaches its apex of the toss and drops back to earth on the target.
Thats the way I saw it work when they did it with the F14s off my carrier.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on June 17, 2024, 10:53:23 PM
Could you have ever toss bombed a tac-nuke in F-4? Did you train for that?
Would you have survived?
We practiced laydown (level at 500’ & 500 kts) and loft (toss at 500’ & 500 kts until the pull cue) nuke deliveries. Survivable? Who knows? No one ever tried it for real that I’m aware of. I’m sure most guys like me, would consider 500 kts the slow part of the delivery.
I thought a toss bomb would be released on the up hill part of the flight path. After "tossing" the bomb upward you finish the top of your loop or upward path roll over, hit the AB and get out of dodge before the bomb reaches its apex of the toss and drops back to earth on the target.
Thats the way I saw it work when they did it with the F14s off my carrier.
Yeah, that’s pretty much how it worked. As soon as the nuke was pickled off, it was time for warp speed and get as far away as possible.
At low altitude, the safe escape distance was less because of air density. If memory serves correctly, at surface launches with the Genie off the F-106 had firing ranges close to half a mile. For those deliveries, it was an immediate max G, 135 degree turn, accelerating to high Mach to get away from the blast, flash, etc.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Eagler on June 18, 2024, 05:53:11 AM
Does one really ever get away from a nuke?
Talk about them today as if they would be an alternative weapon choice is absolutely insane
Eagler
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: icepac on June 18, 2024, 06:42:20 AM
Skyraider will reach 400mph when it dives away after the “toss” to hopefully let terrain shade you from the boom.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on June 18, 2024, 08:43:07 AM
Talk about them today as if they would be an alternative weapon choice is absolutely insane
Eagler
In the Six, our primary concern was getting blinded by the flash. Next would be the shockwave. Then, where to land, because home base would have been obliterated, along with our families, by incoming ICBMs.
I agree about the “alternative” weapon. Once nukes start detonating, the planet will suffer for a very long time. Very concerning when Middle East countries steeped in terrorist activity, talk of nuclear capability.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on June 18, 2024, 12:47:07 PM
In the Six, our primary concern was getting blinded by the flash. Next would be the shockwave. Then, where to land, because home base would have been obliterated, along with our families, by incoming ICBMs.
I agree about the “alternative” weapon. Once nukes start detonating, the planet will suffer for a very long time. Very concerning when Middle East countries steeped in terrorist activity, talk of nuclear capability.
Like that movie Dawns Early Light. Uhhhh where you you bother landing. ;)
Problem is, the enemy might not see it the same way.
I remember when I went through NCB training they drilled it into that Soviet doctrine had no special aversion to chem and to fully expect limited use of tactical nuke on key targets. Soviets simply saw that as another option on their pallet of tactical options and expected to use them on a all out invasion of Europe.
I need to go back and read Hackett's The Third World War again. Not a page burner or Shakespeare, but I remember finding it interesting when I read it.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: AKIron on June 18, 2024, 01:18:07 PM
Like that movie Dawns Early Light. Uhhhh where you you bother landing. ;)
Problem is, the enemy might not see it the same way.
I remember when I went through NCB training they drilled it into that Soviet doctrine had no special aversion to chem and to fully expect limited use of tactical nuke on key targets. Soviets simply saw that as another option on their pallet of tactical options and expected to use them on a all out invasion of Europe.
I need to go back and read Hackett's The Third World War again. Not a page burner or Shakespeare, but I remember finding it interesting when I read it.
I woulda pulled Powers Boothe's ejection handle and bombed some commies.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on June 18, 2024, 01:27:15 PM
Like that movie Dawns Early Light. Uhhhh where you you bother landing. ;)
One night sitting around the squadron waiting for an Air Defense Exercise to start, the conversation turned to “where yuh gonna landing when the balloon goes up?” One of the guys said he was going to the Bahamas. He had worked it out and determined the Six could make it from Minot to the Bahamas, just a tad over 2,000 miles, at long range cruise.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: CptTrips on June 18, 2024, 02:49:40 PM
One night sitting around the squadron waiting for an Air Defense Exercise to start, the conversation turned to “where yuh gonna landing when the balloon goes up?” One of the guys said he was going to the Bahamas. He had worked it out and determined the Six could make it from Minot to the Bahamas, just a tad over 2,000 miles, at long range cruise.
As good a place as any to wait for the radioactive cloud. :confused:
Try saving the AB until you’ve rotated the pitch angle toward the horizon. Accelerating downhill could be part of the issue with DT not working. Also, drop from a stabilized dive angle. With that much acceleration and pitch rotation, there’s a lot more calculating for the squirrel cage to accomplish. Never would have considered lighting the burners diving at the ground, low altitude. That’s a lot of closure rate with a hard surface, and as we all know, the ground always wins.
I have never attempted dive toss yet. I am doing it the way I learned in Aces High! and I am successful at it.
Title: Re: Puma44 Please Help This F4 Manual is Overloading My Brain
Post by: Puma44 on June 18, 2024, 04:57:52 PM