Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: LilMak on June 21, 2024, 11:04:26 AM
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Can we get rid of proximity radar? I understand it was implemented to encourage fights but darbar was always sufficient before it was introduced. It’s having severe negative effects on gameplay in my opinion.
The other night I was on the fringe of a friendly radar ring when I was basically the only member of my team in the sky. On the complete opposite side was a group of 5-6 enemies basically capping at high altitude. I encountered single con on my side of the ring and almost immediately, when I got in icon range, every single plane turned straight for me.
I understand there are coms and text but those still have a bit of fog associated with them. I was far enough away that I doubt this guy was in range of the local radio. Even though I dispatched the player in question quickly (pretty sure he was AFK), I was covered up in short order. They not only had my exact location, they also knew my direction of travel the whole time because the player I killed flopped down from 12k still “alive” but missing a wing.
Proximity dar is ruining aspects of the game like the need for situational awareness. Players don’t even need to look out of the cockpit to see if an enemy is in range.
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Can we get rid of proximity radar? I understand it was implemented to encourage fights but darbar was always sufficient before it was introduced. It’s having severe negative effects on gameplay in my opinion.
The other night I was on the fringe of a friendly radar ring when I was basically the only member of my team in the sky. On the complete opposite side was a group of 5-6 enemies basically capping at high altitude. I encountered single con on my side of the ring and almost immediately, when I got in icon range, every single plane turned straight for me.
I understand there are coms and text but those still have a bit of fog associated with them. I was far enough away that I doubt this guy was in range of the local radio. Even though I dispatched the player in question quickly (pretty sure he was AFK), I was covered up in short order. They not only had my exact location, they also knew my direction of travel the whole time because the player I killed flopped down from 12k still “alive” but missing a wing.
Proximity dar is ruining aspects of the game like the need for situational awareness. Players don’t even need to look out of the cockpit to see if an enemy is in range.
+1
Should not show up on proximity dar outside of radar rings. I agree that is takes a bit of strategy away along with the conga line coming to dogpile you. You also got a kill, so that told all of them who you were aswell, and so they could adjust their style accordingly. I dislike both.
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I agree. flying with your kneeboard in view, zoomed in, pretty much full time, takes away from the fun a bit. I liked the butterflies you'd get not knowing were the cons were. I also liked knowing they might not see me coming either. Head on a swivel, baby!
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I have to agree with this, even though I agreed with proxy dar previously.
Doesn't just provoke a dog pile, it shows you where to do it.
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I agree with the change out of the fact it will stop dogpiling; but, it will reduce fights for the average pilot in the MA and probably harm what little action exists even further.
Put another way, the most experienced pilots won't have an issue, but the vast majority will have a huge problem with this change. That will include new players.
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I’d tend to agree with you on the new player thought. But we don’t really have any of those…Or not nearly enough to justify prox dar. Also, making it even easier for vets to prey on new kids is not what we want. Which is grossly simplified by proximity radar. Ease of radar interpretation is not what’s going to scare a new player away. It’s more likely getting waxed over and over.
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Multiple accounts permit the same gamey behavior when combined with unlimited shade logins
But if the additional $$$ keeps the lights on a bit longer I have no problem with this current behavior of some
Eagler
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I agree with the change out of the fact it will stop dogpiling; but, it will reduce fights for the average pilot in the MA and probably harm what little action exists even further.
Put another way, the most experienced pilots won't have an issue, but the vast majority will have a huge problem with this change. That will include new players.
This was my thought when I supported it.. to help the map look more active and help new guys find the fight.
Maybe a bigger delay on these proxy dars would be a middle of the road?
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I agree with the change out of the fact it will stop dogpiling; but, it will reduce fights for the average pilot in the MA and probably harm what little action exists even further.
Put another way, the most experienced pilots won't have an issue, but the vast majority will have a huge problem with this change. That will include new players.
Agreed.
- oldman
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This was my thought when I supported it.. to help the map look more active and help new guys find the fight.
Maybe a bigger delay on these proxy dars would be a middle of the road?
There definitely needs to be an adjustment. I’d like to see it go back to what it was until a better solution can come along. There’s a bunch of negative unintended consequences that came with prox dar. Much more than it was designed to fix.
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I wouldn't mind it as much if it wasn't an AWACS flying around with you I feel the update rate should be slowed down a lot lets say to over a minute.
While radar in WW2 could distinguish roughly speaking a bomber from a fighter I also feel like there should be some fuzzy logic there as well. Lets say you have a tight formation of 5 fighters that should show up on radar as the cross section of maybe a formation of bombers.
While getting completely rid of it would probably hurt gameplay by making the fights harder to find I think a healthy compromise will stop it from being used as a bandaid to fix poor situational awareness. I have been flying with mouse and keyboard since before this AWACS radar tom foolery and I never have had an issue before it keeping track of enemy cons. Those flying with track ir or VR have a significant SA advantage already compared to us hat switch and number pad mashing poor folks, don't reckon they need instant radar updates to boot. :salute
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Skyyr is correct ... putting dar back would result in less players not more
Eagler
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As I stated. Proximity dar should not work outside of radar range.
Also. The original dar, imo, didn't need any adjustment other than making the radar towers harder to kill. Like 5k pounds instead of 250 pounds. This would have made it much harder to make the dots dissappear inside the radar ring and avoid it being the first thing players destroy when they jabo.
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I prefer the old-fashioned situational awareness we used to rely on. There were enough hints on the map back in the day to keep my eyes open around my own bombers. In multiple flights, multiple eyes were on the lookout, and tactical comms info added to the immersion. I'd like that back instead of the prox-radar "crutch".
EGG
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Ran into the same thing over the weekend. An entire fight was divided between two dar rings. Both sides hovering along an imaginary line. If it wasn’t for a few aggressive players, no fight would’ve occurred. Both teams were hovering and waiting for picks. You could’ve drawn a line between the two groups.
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I would at least like for it not to show very low aircraft like the dar bar and radar don't show very low aircraft.
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nobody is forcing you to use the proximity dar. let the rest of us who arent awesome use it to find fights.
semp
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nobody is forcing you to use the proximity dar. let the rest of us who arent awesome use it to find fights.
semp
It would be great if players weren’t using it to simply to pad their stats. What’s happening is you have players literally refusing to fight without an advantage because they can see what’s going on in real time. Fights have devolved to a point where players simply refuse to engage because they don’t want to put themselves in jeopardy. It’s turned into a middle school dance where all the kids are standing against opposite walls waiting for someone else to go first. Players don’t even have to guess where everyone within icon range of a teammate. So they’re avoiding any danger that might come close to getting them in trouble.
I literally watched this happen to Skyyr specifically as I was climbing out the other night. Two blobs of players basically orbiting on their respective sides refusing to be the first one in. He came in as the lone red dot breaking from the pack. Immediately all the green guys on my side went in for the lone guy. I passed that lopsided fight and immediately became the lone guy being bounced by 5 or 6 players from his team. Shortly we were both dead and the blobs went to avoiding each other again. So aggressive pilots who are actually instigating fights are being punished for doing so as the entire enemy team can gang them simply because they can see that it’s easy meat simply by looking at the clipboard. Radar on both sides was down but it was basically pointless. I used to carve a lot of my favorite fights on the fringes of large enemy furballs because there were plenty of targets but not so many that I immediately get overwhelmed. I can’t do that anymore because the players that I encounter don’t even have to actually see me (AFK). Once I’m in icon range of AFK player their entire team knows exactly where I am. Instead of fighting one two or three players, I’m immediately pounced on by everyone who’s even remotely close. It is perpetuating timid gameplay. Timid gameplay is killing the game.
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It would be great if players weren’t using it to simply to pad their stats. What’s happening is you have players literally refusing to fight without an advantage because they can see what’s going on in real time. Fights have devolved to a point where players simply refuse to engage because they don’t want to put themselves in jeopardy. It’s turned into a middle school dance where all the kids are standing against opposite walls waiting for someone else to go first. Players don’t even have to guess where everyone within icon range of a teammate. So they’re avoiding any danger that might come close to getting them in trouble.
I literally watched this happen to Skyyr specifically as I was climbing out the other night. Two blobs of players basically orbiting on their respective sides refusing to be the first one in. He came in as the lone red dot breaking from the pack. Immediately all the green guys on my side went in for the lone guy. I passed that lopsided fight and immediately became the lone guy being bounced by 5 or 6 players from his team. Shortly we were both dead and the blobs went to avoiding each other again. So aggressive pilots who are actually instigating fights are being punished for doing so as the entire enemy team can gang them simply because they can see that it’s easy meat simply by looking at the clipboard. Radar on both sides was down but it was basically pointless. I used to carve a lot of my favorite fights on the fringes of large enemy furballs because there were plenty of targets but not so many that I immediately get overwhelmed. I can’t do that anymore because the players that I encounter don’t even have to actually see me (AFK). Once I’m in icon range their entire team knows exactly where I am. Instead of fighting one two or three players, I’m immediately pounced on by everyone who’s even remotely close. It is perpetuating timid gameplay.
you guys are better than me. would be nice if I could get a kill once in a while. you use your skills as an advantage, some use proximity dar. some use both. I've seen skyyr use both.
semp
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What’s happening is you have players literally refusing to fight without an advantage because they can see what’s going on in real time.
Timid gameplay is killing the game.
Unfortunately, I don’t think changing DAR will change that. We’re at a point where there are no new players, and the existing ones don’t want to get any better. No offense (especially to you Mak), but AH has become a retirement home social club. I think most play to pass the time. There’s hardly any competition anymore because the players that seek the path of less resistance have taken over. I’ve seen it far too many times since my return. A large DAR bar attacks a base and as soon as defenders up, they attack a different field on a different front.
Sure, there used to be NOE raids and base sneaks all the time, but those usually instigated a fight.
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you guys are better than me. would be nice if I could get a kill once in a while. you use your skills as an advantage, some use proximity dar. some use both. I've seen skyyr use both.
semp
I use proximity dar all the time. It’s basically unavoidable. I literally got a kill I never would have the other night because I could set up my attack before there was even a dot outside my canopy. That fight was over before I even got there and all the guy was doing was trying to get home. I got bounced last night by 4 players and watched as my teammate flew wide around me because he didn’t want to get involved. He probably would’ve never been able/bothered to do that before. I’m not upset that he didn’t help. He was high enough that he wasn’t in any danger but may have peeled one of my instigators off. But decided to avoid me simply because what prox dar was showing him.
Reverting back to the way radar was isn’t going to stop pickers, hordes, or timid players. But it would restore some of the balance to lopsided fights. Much of the fog and decision making is gone. Again… you don’t even need to change your view to see where an enemy is and which way he’s going. If you’re engaged there’s no need to look behind you to see if someone is there. If you’re below their tail and they can’t even see you they know about how close you are. You can’t even sneak by in a goon because the second you’re in any enemy icon range you’re dead. Even if that player doesn’t actually see you, everyone else on their entire team will. The strategic advantage of having a local radar tower is basically non existent. Even GVs are pointing out exactly where you are.
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Unfortunately, I don’t think changing DAR will change that. We’re at a point where there are no new players, and the existing ones don’t want to get any better. No offense (especially to you Mak), but AH has become a retirement home social club. I think most play to pass the time. There’s hardly any competition anymore because the players that seek the path of less resistance have taken over. I’ve seen it far too many times since my return. A large DAR bar attacks a base and as soon as defenders up, they attack a different field on a different front.
Sure, there used to be NOE raids and base sneaks all the time, but those usually instigated a fight.
That’s kinda my point. Supposedly prox dar was added to make it easier for new players to find action. There are few (if any) new players so why change something that wasn’t really broken when it’s ruining things for us retirees? :old: No one asked for it. It just appeared one day and had terrible unintended consequences and makes it easier for people to take the path of least resistance. I’ve pretty much spent the majority of AH my time seeking large enemy darbars and it’s infinitely harder for me to do that now.
For the record, I’d love test to see NOE (200 AGL) come back with the numbers we have now. But prox dar wouldn’t even allow that to be effective.
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For the record, I’d love test to see NOE (200 AGL) come back with the numbers we have now. But prox dar wouldn’t even allow that to be effective.
I think NOE is 60ft AGL now, which makes it even harder.
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This was my thought when I supported it.. to help the map look more active and help new guys find the fight.
Maybe a bigger delay on these proxy dars would be a middle of the road?
This would be easy to try. No new coding required. It is currently 5 seconds, maybe 15 seconds. Or...?
Downside is that field porkers and CV killers would be near impossible to stop if they would only be detected 15 seconds after breaking the dar ring.
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I think NOE is 60ft AGL now, which makes it even harder.
I think that’s too low if you’re flying NAP of the earth. Only works over water.
Here’s my suggestion for changes…
Remove icon range radar or make it specialized. Like certain aircraft/GVs can provide it. Maybe give it to bomber formations, C-47s, M3s (anything that’s actually hauling troops) and PT boats.
Make the radar towers harder. Minimum of 500lbs of ord to bring them down. I always thought it was kinda bogus that I can bring them down with a single gun pass.
NOE aircraft (200 AGL) don’t show on darbar but do show in radar rings and for the above excepted equipment.
Increase the darbar update to almost instant.
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I think that’s too low if you’re flying NAP of the earth. Only works over water.
Here’s my suggestion for changes…
Remove icon range radar or make it specialized. Like certain aircraft/GVs can provide it. Maybe give it to bomber formations, C-47s, M3s (anything that’s actually hauling troops) and PT boats.
Make the radar towers harder. Minimum of 500lbs of ord to bring them down. I always thought it was kinda bogus that I can bring them down with a single gun pass.
NOE aircraft (200 AGL) don’t show on darbar but do show in radar rings and for the above excepted equipment.
Increase the darbar update to almost instant.
:aok
Remove icon range radar or make it specialized.
Yea, like the P-61, F4U-2 and F6F-5N :noid
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When the all-seeing radar was introduced into AH, it made me and many from my squad to quit.
Even hiding behind a mountain was not possible anymore, and if you lose SA you just look at the radar and se what direction the enemy plane is.
Small maps would fix this and SA would matter again, and higher ENY planes would have more of a chance again in a hostile sky.
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Howdy Save! Good to see ya!
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When the all-seeing radar was introduced into AH, it made me and many from my squad to quit.
Even hiding behind a mountain was not possible anymore, and if you lose SA you just look at the radar and se what direction the enemy plane is.
Small maps would fix this and SA would matter again, and higher ENY planes would have more of a chance again in a hostile sky.
Exactly this. Smaller maps condense the fight areas and creates bigger battles overall where you don't need a proximity dar. It's funny, decision are made on "what the noob would want" vs what the player base whose been here for years want. If you replace the regulars with noobies, did the plan actually work? In other games you don't get a dar, icons, or any dots, it's much harder there IMO. Need to bring some strategy back to the game. 30 players on Oceana during the afternoon isn't bringing hardly any action regardless of DOT Dar.
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This would be easy to try. No new coding required. It is currently 5 seconds, maybe 15 seconds. Or...?
Downside is that field porkers and CV killers would be near impossible to stop if they would only be detected 15 seconds after breaking the dar ring.
Even that level of effort seems too much these days for us to expect...
Me thinks this wishlist forum is just therapy for the oldest subscribers...
Eagler
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Even that level of effort seems too much these days for us to expect...
Me thinks this wishlist forum is just therapy for the oldest subscribers...
Eagler
You’re right. Effort is pretty much zero. Still not going to stop me from asking.
Nearly everything I proposed as a fix (except specialized equipment) is basically in arena settings. Might take 10 minutes. We experimented. It sucks. It’s OK to admit it didn’t work and had unintended consequences.
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I'm actually in agreement with lilmak on this one.. who would of thunk it
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Maybe have the awacs style radar in the hangar but not available in the cockpit? Helps find fights but doesn’t ruin them.
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Current MA minimum NOE settings are 65 ft., I think 200 ft. would be more realistic. In rough terrain maintaining 65 ft. is almost impossible. :rock
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Dar should be line of sight with realistic range limits...blasting out to sea should be different than into mountains
But maps would need to be smaller so you don't spend all day looking for a fight imo...or go from 3 sides to 2..
Eagler
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Dar should be line of sight with realistic range limits...blasting out to sea should be different than into mountains
But maps would need to be smaller so you don't spend all day looking for a fight imo
Eagler
I’ve never really had difficulty finding fights. Even before the radar was changed. Darbar made it easy. But I will admit that the smaller numbers may contribute to doing a bit more searching. I think a higher refresh rate on darbar (almost instant) could help locate fights without the need for awacs. Smaller maps just make all around better sense given the current population. Having more bases than players isn’t encouraging people to fight.
Current MA minimum NOE settings are 65 ft., I think 200 ft. would be more realistic. In rough terrain maintaining 65 ft. is almost impossible. :rock
I agree and am willing to try this out. Even when NOE raids were ridiculous, you still could have a decent time defending if you got up because the horde wasn’t buzzing around at 15k+.
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I’m am SO SICK of this stupid awacs radar setting. It’s made the fighter game one dimensional. Select a pick plane. Join large group. Club away at outnumbered opponents without giving a thought to checking your six. Dive from out of icon range to be the 3rd, 4th, or 5th parasite ganging one enemy.
Dale,
For the sake of what’s left, please un-fudge this. Make it available in the hangar but take it away in flight. Or simply take it away. Please stop trying to noob up the game and start thinking about retention instead of trying to attract customers that aren’t showing up. I know you’re basically retired from writing code but take 10 minutes and adjust the settings so the game has some variety and makes SA and radar towers relevant again.
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I’m am SO SICK of this stupid awacs radar setting. It’s made the fighter game one dimensional. Select a pick plane. Join large group. Club away at outnumbered opponents without giving a thought to checking your six. Dive from out of icon range to be the 3rd, 4th, or 5th parasite ganging one enemy.
Dale,
For the sake of what’s left, please un-fudge this. Make it available in the hangar but take it away in flight. Or simply take it away. Please stop trying to noob up the game and start thinking about retention instead of trying to attract customers that aren’t showing up. I know you’re basically retired from writing code but take 10 minutes and adjust the settings so the game has some variety and makes SA and radar towers relevant again.
I 2nd this!
Do I hear a 3rd?..4th, 5th ...
Eagler
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I 2nd this!
Do I hear a 3rd?..4th, 5th ...
Eagler
3rd!
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Ill give it the 4th.
I think its time to go back to the old settings for radar. When you watch youtube videos most players dont put away the clipboard. I find myself looking at the clipboard to spot planes instead of a quick scan through the views. Its far too easy this way and it takes away that "fog of war" in the game.
Please consider it Hitech.
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Ill give it the 4th.
I think its time to go back to the old settings for radar. When you watch youtube videos most players dont put away the clipboard. I find myself looking at the clipboard to spot planes instead of a quick scan through the views. Its far too easy this way and it takes away that "fog of war" in the game.
Please consider it Hitech.
Even I have become guilty of keeping the clipboard up until I get to the fight. It's really nice for scrolling on FB or Tiktok while climbing out :rofl
Unfortunately, I don't think we're going to see any changes (I hope I'm wrong :pray)
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I cannot stress enough how bad I think it is for gameplay. There has to be guys that fight outnumbered in order to keep combat going. The awacs has virtually destroyed the ability to be aggressive while outnumbered and almost necessitates timid game play by all. The result is totally lopsided fights and an almost constant double team of one country. Even when the fights start somewhat even, one or two quick kills on one side or the other results in a gang rape of the remaining outnumbered players in that fight. Then some defenders move to another area and the fight devolves to a seal clubbing contest or evaporates all together.
It’s absolutely trashed SA. It’s so gamey that we might as well enable F3 mode for fighters at this point.
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Ill give it the 4th.
I think its time to go back to the old settings for radar. When you watch youtube videos most players dont put away the clipboard. I find myself looking at the clipboard to spot planes instead of a quick scan through the views. Its far too easy this way and it takes away that "fog of war" in the game.
Please consider it Hitech.
I'll give it a 5th.
Back when Hitech changed the Dar, it was either "this way or the old way" to chose. Of course, couldn't provide an "other" selection to continue to make tweaks. I never liked that radar became too easy. My suggestion was to increase radar towers to 3k pounds so it would be much harder to take down dar. Such a simple fix.
Simple isn't in Hitechs language. Much like the DA just needed some simple fixes and we got a whole knew Match Play arena which had some good aspects but many broken things because it was too complicated.
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What is the average height in feet of the trees in AH? Is it possible to be under dar when over land with objects. How tall are the buildings?
I like to make now strat runs sometimes when it’s slow or we need to slow down one side. Most strat defenders are waiting at 20K and I’ve already made a pass or two when they realize I’m on the deck.
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Ill give it the 4th.
I think its time to go back to the old settings for radar. When you watch youtube videos most players dont put away the clipboard. I find myself looking at the clipboard to spot planes instead of a quick scan through the views. Its far too easy this way and it takes away that "fog of war" in the game.
Please consider it Hitech.
Absolutely.. it's a level of suspense during bomber missions I have always enjoyed. Could be a milk run, or that huge darbar ahead could be a huge gaggle of interceptors about to tear us apart. I remember a specific mission we put up in the old Main where there weren't a lot of clues as to what was about to transpire under the old dar system..
Turned out, as our 30 player B17 run was headed south over the middle of the water at over 20K, headed due north directly head-on and co-alt was a HUGE number of German-themed Rook or Knit- can't remember - fighters.. and although we got royally torn apart, it was awesome! No prox-dar, no clues except the darbar.. that was all. Kudos to whoever organized the opposition-- that was a great ride.
Really miss what we had in days of old..
EGG
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Maybe have the awacs style radar in the hangar but not available in the cockpit? Helps find fights but doesn’t ruin them.
I use bombers as awacs sometimes when Knights are 1 v 2 and an attacking country is just furballing. I will climb 1 set up to 20k and bridge that gap in the fog just so we have eyes on the situation.
I have tried to implement this against hordes rolling bases. Due to the nature of a rolling horde that requires b29s just to keep up. 29s are not yb40s.... nor should ever be used as such. Take my word on it :rofl
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Revert the AWACS radar, and remove some large maps.
Higher ENY planes may be given a life again.
When numbers are low on a smaller map, fights are still there.
You might even have to check 6 again, this is after all a WWII flight sim, not WW3.
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So many nuanced things it affects…
All that artwork and research to develop cockpits that simulate what it was like to fly the actual plane you selected in the hangar is downplayed. Canopy supports blocking views, armor behind your head are less of a factor.
Coming in low so they can’t see you under their tail isn’t a thing anymore.
Rolling the airplane to see what’s under your wings when you’re at altitude.
Skimming a C-47 over terrain to avoid detection.
Having a good fight without getting “help” you didn’t ask for or want.
Clouds are basically pointless.
Regaining eyes on a contact you lost during maneuvers or a blackout.
Seeing an enemy dot or icon and setting up before they see you.
Head on a swivel? Why? You already know if there’s anyone in range.
Someone is a sector away and you know if they’re in a fight, how many they’re fighting, and whether or not you can be bothered to help before you get in radio range. Speaking of radios…the need for good coms is diminished as well.
So many intangibles have been sacrificed with AWACS.