General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: CptTrips on May 19, 2025, 12:23:12 PM
Title: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 19, 2025, 12:23:12 PM
I think his idea is interesting and worth considering.
Of course that only works with constant, reliably cadence of innovation and new development. The model only works as long as you keep producing new content.
I like that it is a hybrid model, so you can do it which ever way you prefer.
I head the Combat Pilot mention looking at a similar type model.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: hazmatt on May 19, 2025, 01:21:43 PM
The hybrid model seems to make the most sense. I think more options are better in any situation.
I bought a WT premium subscription and it was the biggest waste of money ever. I didn't notice any difference. I did buy a couple premium planes on sale that helped speed up my research by a bunch but now I'm to the point where my research has outpaced my skill and crew skill levels. I've noticed that crew skills really start to become a factor in the jets.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Animl-AW on May 19, 2025, 01:23:14 PM
This immature child complained about me posting on DCS. 'more unsupported planes".
You all think he's your buddy,... you're just a shoe in the door to whip everyone the bird and post all dcs on AH boards.
Oh I forgot, he's from TX, it's ok
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: AKIron on May 19, 2025, 01:49:41 PM
Interesting proposal. Would cost them little to try it I think. Easy to shut down if not profitable enough.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Spikes on May 19, 2025, 02:07:42 PM
To me it seems like it would be a money loser - but has potential I guess. I agree that if it doesn't work you just end it. I prefer subscription models in games where I can play but don't lose progress if I cx the sub for a while. World of Tanks or Warships is a good example of this - I might play it for a month or two but not touch it for six. Something like this would fall into that category inherently since there isn't any progress to lose.
I assume if it was announced there would be a large influx of people more willing to try DCS. What price do they set for a monthly sub? You're getting thousands in aircraft for what is essentially a rental policy. Surely it would have to be higher than $15/mo which is the standard among most sub-based games. With that said I think for a non-DCS vet nobody doing the subscription is getting their money's worth anyway, as each plane is very in-depth and takes a lot longer to learn.
Also, does ED pay the aircraft developers up front, or are the developers getting payments/royalties from sales each time a module is purchased? Just wondering if the devs lose out on sub-based model.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 19, 2025, 02:19:54 PM
Also, does ED pay the aircraft developers up front, or are the developers getting payments/royalties from sales each time a module is purchased? Just wondering if the devs lose out on sub-based model.
Not sure on a lot of that. It would need some careful consideration for sure.
Pretty certain devs probably get paid on something like a quarterly basis a portion of the sales of their modules sold through the ED store. Either way they have to pay their license royalty but they could sell through their own store-front or pay ED a slice to sell through theirs.
I image a sub would include all ED products and any mod devs that wished to revenue share and participate. A mod dev wouldn't have to participate. Their modules could be for sale only if they choose. OR maybe it just covers ED products.
The beauty of a hybrid model is it can be mixed and matched in different combinations.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: AKIron on May 19, 2025, 02:22:05 PM
I don't know but I assumed 3rd party devs were paid per sale. Would be interesting to see how they would handle a "rental". If they pay 3rd party devs for subscriber time spent in their aircraft what's to prevent someone from unscrupulously logging in and running up the hours on autopilot in a 3rd party plane?
Could still be done I suppose. Make it more expensive to subscribe and spend all your time in one plane than the dev would be compensated for.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 19, 2025, 02:30:28 PM
I don't know but I assumed 3rd party devs were paid per sale. Would be interesting to see how they would handle a "rental". If they pay 3rd party devs for subscriber time spent in their aircraft what's to prevent someone from unscrupulously logging in and running up the hours on autopilot in a 3rd party plane?
Yeah interesting.
Maybe it only covers ED products and FC3-4 etc.
I guess vendors could run their own...
or they could set up an add-on thing like your cable does if you add-on HBO. So you have your cable bill or cable bill + HBO surcharge. That surcharge (minus store fee) gets paid to the module devs. The module vendors could decide if their charge was per plane or for all their modules.
So it might be billed like:
DCS World Premium vs DCS World Premium + Heartblur Anthology
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: AKIron on May 19, 2025, 02:59:18 PM
Yeah, that makes sense. Obviously there is some investment in setting that up. Seems the first step would be a survey. Probably no quicker way to start an insurrection though. :D
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 19, 2025, 04:21:33 PM
Yeah, that makes sense. Obviously there is some investment in setting that up. Seems the first step would be a survey. Probably no quicker way to start an insurrection though. :D
Well, one of the nice features is no one gets screwed.
If DCS were to implement this tomorrow, Iron would simply be listed as an owner of all his current modules just like he is now. As new stuff comes out, he can go rental to access the new stuff and he still owns his purchased modules. Or he can ignore subscription mode and just purchase the new content the way he always has and prefers.
I'm not recommending this for AH necessarily, but if a company like AH were to implement this, no one is forced to go out and buy anything to keep playing. They simply start out as subscribers as they are already and can stay that way if that's how they choose. Someone not really sold they want to hook into a sub on this old a game can simply buy the PTO, ETO, or East Front expansion pack for a fixed cost.
But no one is forced to do it either way is the key point.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 20, 2025, 05:45:51 AM
Im not a fan of subscriptions. They limit player base, they keep younger kids out. You may like that, but it doesn't build up next gen players. Everything just nickle and dime you every single month and you never actually "pay it off". This is a rental approach and it's just endless cash being thrown out month after month. Like for AH, I love the game. But, all those $15 add up to like 2k over time and I still wouldn't be able to play next month if I didn't want to pay.
The best model IMO, is to be able to buy the game for a one time payment of $60. Then you own the game and can play whenever, and the company gets more cash up front for payroll and operations. I don't mind how DCS where you have to purchase a plane, because each module is like a game in itself, and the fact that you can play it whenever for how ever long after you purchase the modules once is what I really like. Having to pay another subscription on top of the 10 I already have is going to prevent me from enjoying more modules down the line. IMO, just trying to convince you to throw money into the wind for ever... AH is the only game I'll sacrifice a monthly sub for. Just because its my favorite pastime, but in all regards I hate subscriptions and I feel its been a major problem why AH never got as big, and then had a declining base over time when more competition came out. The subscription is a block to prevent players from trying the game again after a few month and it limits players. Like, I wouldn't go pay a $15 subscription just to log into chiverly one time to play it and see if i still like it. Its not a winning strategy to me.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Eagler on May 20, 2025, 06:24:28 AM
It's all about the monthly payment today isn't it..who pays cash for anything..especially our younger citizens..
Sleezy car dealer: "what can you afford monthly?"..
Need lower interest rates so things cost more but monthly payment is lower/affordable...
Not sure why the younger generation have an issue with subscription as it seems their entire financial system is based off it today..
Eagler
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: The Fugitive on May 20, 2025, 07:23:58 AM
Todays generation have no issues with subscriptions. They pay monthly for their phone, Netflix, Disney, Paramount+, Hulu, Peacock, Amazon, and on and on. The have tons of subscriptions that they dont even think about paying even if they arent using them. There are even subscriptions out there that tell you what your paying for subscriptions and which you dont use!
No, subscriptions arent the issue, its the value you get for that subscription. Unfortunately the value here is slowly going away. With numbers low, lack of updates and so on, many dont see a value here, or maybe the $15 a month is too high for the value they perceive here. Those of us who have been here forever still see the value because we know what the game has. New players need to be convinced in 2 weeks what that value is. Thats why the videos I try to make are geared toward whats in the game as apposed to the same old run of kills films.
This game has a lot to offer, but its tough to show that in two weeks. Adding a FTP limited set of planes/vehicles would help bring in those interested with out the "investment" of a subscription. The trick would be converting those FTP players.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Eagler on May 20, 2025, 07:45:19 AM
What Fugi said ^^
FTP seems to be the answer but HT himself has stated here he isn't going there..
I see the churn of newbies FTP would bring in might not provide many new paying subs but those additional numbers would provide us existing subscribers more targets while they experienced the game and decided if it was worth their $$$ :joystick:
Eagler
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: AKIron on May 20, 2025, 08:54:31 AM
Demographics plays a part too. Young people don't want to spend time with old farts.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 20, 2025, 09:30:25 AM
Im not a fan of subscriptions. They limit player base, they keep younger kids out. You may like that, but it doesn't build up next gen players. Everything just nickle and dime you every single month and you never actually "pay it off". This is a rental approach and it's just endless cash being thrown out month after month. Like for AH, I love the game. But, all those $15 add up to like 2k over time and I still wouldn't be able to play next month if I didn't want to pay.
I think you miss an important point.
I agree about subs myself. I prefer purchase, but others feel different. The beautify of this approach is that each chooses the model they prefer. If you and I prefer the purchase model, we purchase. If someone else, for what ever their reasons prefer a subscription approach, then they subscribe.
If it can expand the reach and lower the resistance to entry, then what is the downside? No one is forced into either model.
Just more way for the customer to choose how they want to give you their money.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: hazmatt on May 20, 2025, 10:07:49 AM
Demographics plays a part too. Young people don't want to spend time with old farts.
Not sure about that. I think it's the environment overall.
It seems like the younger players in WT find it fascinating when age comes up and I tell them my age. They act like they saw a dinosaur or something. lolz
That said I think the WT progression thing is very helpful in getting new players up to speed. You start with biplanes and progress from there. I've found that the skills needed for jets are different then the ones needed for the planes I'm used to. It lets you build skills over time and doesn't drop you into the most complex planes to start with.
The funny thing is you can buy the top of the line jets but the people who bought them are obvious because they don't have a clue how to use them and can quickly earn the "cannon fodder" title.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Lazerr on May 20, 2025, 10:43:16 AM
Log in and check out the gameplay sometime. I think you'd be hard pressed to find people that would want to play this for free, let alone $14.95. Most hours of they day are absolutely terrible. So yeah, $14.95 is a little steep for a 3 hour window of MAYBE finding some action, depending on the map, what country you are on, and what herd of dweeb are flying 8 deep in a herd of perk planes at 15-20k. Then you add the factor of having to learn a new game? In 2 weeks, with limited playing time assuming they are employed or in school?
Anyone that thinks this going to rebound without major changes to game mechanics and subscription model is delusional. I'm not talking new planes, or fancy graphics either.
I grew up playing this, and still currently subscribe, though rarely log in. This isn't a post to trash this game, sadly it's about the people playing it.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: hazmatt on May 20, 2025, 11:03:51 AM
Log in and check out the gameplay sometime. I think you'd be hard pressed to find people that would want to play this for free, let alone $14.95. Most hours of they day are absolutely terrible. So yeah, $14.95 is a little steep for a 3 hour window of MAYBE finding some action, depending on the map, what country you are on, and what herd of dweeb are flying 8 deep in a herd of perk planes at 15-20k. Then you add the factor of having to learn a new game? In 2 weeks, with limited playing time assuming they are employed or in school?
Anyone that thinks this going to rebound without major changes to game mechanics and subscription model is delusional. I'm not talking new planes, or fancy graphics either.
I grew up playing this, and still currently subscribe, though rarely log in. This isn't a post to trash this game, sadly it's about the people playing it.
I agree with everything you said. It seems that the two countries with larger populations ganging the smaller country has gotten worse since I left and that can't be good.
I really think the thing about graphics is not a big deal. I think there are lots of people who would play a game that was fun even if the graphics aren't cutting edge.If you look at the top GPUs on steam they are not exactly the powerhouses needed to run max graphic settings in VR. I don't think people that play these other games are running that at max graphic detail anyways.
Here are some of the top GPUS on steam as of April: 1:NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Laptop GPU 2: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 3: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 4: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1650 5: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 4060 Ti 6: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3050 7: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Ti 8: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Laptop GPU
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Eagler on May 20, 2025, 11:31:47 AM
AH graphics are fine .. I only see the planes skin when I am in the middle of a2a and very close up..I don't play the game to fly around and sightsee..
As it provides the same basic sim experience with much less expensive hardware it could be marketed that way ..
At least we all can get an a2a kill in a tour..not so much in dcs it sounds like..
I doubt that they have anything like MNM either!
Eagler
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 20, 2025, 11:41:02 AM
I agree about subs myself. I prefer purchase, but others feel different. The beautify of this approach is that each chooses the model they prefer. If you and I prefer the purchase model, we purchase. If someone else, for what ever their reasons prefer a subscription approach, then they subscribe.
If it can expand the reach and lower the resistance to entry, then what is the downside? No one is forced into either model.
Just more way for the customer to choose how they want to give you their money.
I dont see an issue of being able to pay it monthly over time until you pay total price. I understand $60 may be tough for some. but $12 for 5 months to play ain't bad. And if you dont pay, you dont play the next month. That is the better approach. Being able to own the game and play the game whenever is what I truely desire since I dont get to play often.
The #1 problem with AH is that, if you want to come back and try the game after months of not playing, you still have to pay $15 for it and most just aren't gonna risk that to play once or twice that month.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: CptTrips on May 20, 2025, 12:46:59 PM
I dont see an issue of being able to pay it monthly over time until you pay total price. I understand $60 may be tough for some. but $12 for 5 months to play ain't bad. And if you dont pay, you dont play the next month. That is the better approach. Being able to own the game and play the game whenever is what I truely desire since I dont get to play often.
Oh I see what you're saying.
Instead of subscription, it is purchase on installment plan.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I think it has merit. Maybe that is a third choice. If compatible, I'm all about more choices. I may not have the same feelings about one mode or another than someone else, but as long as we each have a path we are comfortable with and it all works together, then I see more choices as better.
That is the approach I've seen Combat Pilot want to look for. Try and find multiple pathways for various customer preferences to be accommodated.
Always look for ways of taking the away the excuse for a potential customer to say no.
"No, I don't like subscription plans!" "OK, you can purchase or purchase on installment (plus finiance fee)."
"No, I don't want to pay $70 for a single plane!" "OK, you can go by subscription and get everything for one low monthly rate."
"I already own 6 planes but I want to just subscribe for all the new stuff and not purchase outright!" "OK, No problem. We support the hybrid model. You own the modules you own and your subscription gets you temporary access to everything else."
"I want to fly the F-15 and I want to own it but I'm in school and just don't have that kind of cash up front." "OK, No problem. We support installment plans. Buy now, pay later. When it's paid off, the license converts to permanent. Until its paid off if is a subscription that can be turned off but the fee is applied to the purchase."
Don't leave them an open pathway to the word no.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: DmonSlyr on May 20, 2025, 12:57:59 PM
Instead of subscription, it is purchase on installment plan.
Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I think it has merit. Maybe that is a third choice. If compatible, I'm all about more choices. I may not have the same feelings about one mode or another than someone else, but as long as we each have a path we are comfortable with and it all works together, then I see more choices as better.
That is the approach I've seen Combat Pilot want to look for. Try and find multiple pathways for various customer preferences to be accommodated.
Always look for ways of taking the away the excuse for a potential customer to say no.
"No, I don't like subscription plans!" "OK, you can purchase or purchase on installment (plus finiance fee)."
"No, I don't want to pay $70 for a single plane!" "OK, you can go by subscription and get everything for one low monthly rate."
"I already own 6 planes but I want to just subscribe for all the new stuff and not purchase outright!" "OK, No problem. We support the hybrid model. You own the modules you own and your subscription gets you temproary access to everything esle."
Yeah many options is fine. I agree. As long as players get the same or relative experience for the value paid. Its not too complicated, and people dont feel overwhelmed with purchases, I think multiple options can work.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Shane on May 21, 2025, 02:24:02 PM
Not sure why the younger generation have an issue with subscription as it seems their entire financial system is based off it today..
Eagler
Because the entertainment market has been so fractured to capture every bit of disposble income. Remember when cable used to include movie channels and stuff in the subscription, now it's a basic assess subscription and each service that was formerly included are now monthly extras.
Amazon Prime is an example of this as well as usual cable providers like Spectrum.
I can see why younger players might not view the HTC $$ point as an attractive option. This has been discussed fairly well, covering many points.
One other factor not many have touched on but is as important as $$/entertainment value is the personal sense of validation value. AH is a persistent world, where improving skills in whatever, and cooperating to achieve ethereal victories like a base take or winning the war are longer term senses of achievement. The other games being discussed are basically set pieces or very discrete mission/career ladder and you get immediate feedback/validation on what just occurred. It's the quicker sense of closure and improvement that keeps people attached to those games and how they get sucked into the transactional model.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Dadtallica on May 21, 2025, 02:29:19 PM
Another factor I feel is going to be an evergreen growing problem is that fact that we are now almost 100 years removed from WWII. It does not get the attention in schools that it did when most of us were in grade school.
It will just continue to become more difficult to get people excited about the genre. Unless it’s an FPS style game. Which AH is sort of.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Eagler on May 21, 2025, 03:50:47 PM
Obviously a generational issue so..New pricing structure based off age..
Age..........Monthly $$ 0 to 18 .. $1.95 19 to 30 .. $3.95 31 to 45 .. $7.95 46 to 60 .. $9.95 60+ :old: $14.95
Everyone's happy! Lol
Eagler
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: hazmatt on May 21, 2025, 06:22:01 PM
Another factor I feel is going to be an evergreen growing problem is that fact that we are now almost 100 years removed from WWII. It does not get the attention in schools that it did when most of us were in grade school.
It will just continue to become more difficult to get people excited about the genre. Unless it’s an FPS style game. Which AH is sort of.
If this is true how is it that WT has hundreds of thousands of players when the planes you start in there are prior to WWII? I mean you really get some crop dusters to start off with in that game lolz.
Personally I think the WT advertisements have a lot to do with the interest and numbers as well as the free to play aspect. I was able to pick up where I left off on accounts that I had created more then 10 years ago and had not paid a cent to keep them alive.
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: hazmatt on May 21, 2025, 06:24:14 PM
Obviously a generational issue so..New pricing structure based off age..
Age..........Monthly $$ 0 to 18 .. $1.95 19 to 30 .. $3.95 31 to 45 .. $7.95 46 to 60 .. $9.95 60+ :old: $14.95
Everyone's happy! Lol
Eagler
You could take it a step farther and have something like WWII online "builder" accounts where you can pay more and get some in game perks like a big hammer over your name lolz
Title: Re: Hybrid Purchase\Subscription Model
Post by: Meatwad on May 21, 2025, 06:31:53 PM
The builder accounts in WW2OL are monetary support in order for them to add new things into the game. But since there is no longer any development in this game.....