Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: SlapShot on May 09, 2002, 01:33:15 PM
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I have heard this term used when describing how a P38 has reversed on an opponent. I fought Kappa last week (at least 3 times) ... he P38 ... me Spit IX ... and he reversed on me so quickly, I couldn't believe it (so I had to get killed 2 more times before I did).
Is he and other P38 jocks "flipping" the P38 to reverse so quickly ? Does it have anything to do with engine control of the 2 engines ?
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rudder.
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And Flaps...
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OK ... rudder and flaps ... is that it ? What is the minimum speed to pull this tight turn without stalling. Any more detail ?!?!
The reason that I ask this is that last week I took a P38 on a JABO run and was the only one working the "town". Each turn I made, after firing rockets, bombs, or guns, I had all I could do to keep it from flopping on me during a turn. I had 1 notch of flaps and was using full rudder to make the turns. The turns weren't quite as "tight" as the turns that Kappa was pulling.
I love the P38 and would really like to learn how to handle this beast. I think that it requires different skills than any other plane in the plane set due to the aircraft design. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks ...
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Just a guess here, since my P-38 time was limited to one tour, and I didn't mess with too many hi-G manuevers (I was getting ready for Invasion Sicily) Anyhow, the 38 has a pretty nifty high speed instantanious turn rate. I think you're describing the "Bat-Turn" In this case, it's not how slow you are going, but rather, how fast you are going. Try 180s at super high speeds using flaps and the break, and rudder, and whatever else you can think of. I could be totally off base here though
-Sikboy
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what're we talking about here, high yo-yo, hammerhead type maneuver or combination of both? maybe none at all hehee please enlighten me...masters
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The P-38 is definately the most busy aircraft to fly... I think that is what keeps me coming back to her all the time... I use many
Combo's of flaps, rudder, trim, dive brake, wep, wep with flaps, even landing gear in some extreme moments :)
I am most certainly not a master in the P-38, although I should be since I have spent so much time in one... I love flying the P-38 and can turn with the best... My problem is either I can't shoot for crap or my old 433mhz just won't keep up for shooting...
(Im almost afraid to upgrade, then I have no excuse) :o
In the 38 I do most things by feel... so I am not able to really help you with doing which at what speed... When I am low and slow I use one notch of flaps intermittently... hit wep when I feel like I am getting too slow, right when the plane starts to slide... Then raise flaps when I get a chance to gain some E... Chopping throttle really helps in tight turns... But you better have a plan for getting some speed back real quick... IMHO the throttle is more sensitve in control of the 38 than any other plane... I use trim to fight my way out of compression... I did something the other day that I have never done before... I sheared my right wing off while recovering from compression... I didn't even know the P-38 could do that. :confused: But then again, she always surprises me...
The only thing I can suggest is the way that I learned... Practice, Practice, Practice until she is an extension of your hands... Then when you really have a true "feel" for the plane... You can amaze yourself sometimes with what you can do in her... Another thing that has helped me a lot is winging with a P-38 Master... Just observing the master at work is a major help... Following him is another big plus...
BOOT
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I think I dont really know what he means by "flipping" hehe. I said rudder because really low speeds, with or without flaps out, you can use rudder to significantly increase your roll rate by using rudder and a sudden "snap" high G pull.. it makes the 38 roll so fast it almost looks like a stall. Not as fast as the $#@$# flap-retract stalls, but it does make it roll like a 205 :)
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No Im not sure of exactly what he means by "Flipping" either...
I have had two occaisions where people questioned how in the hell I got around on their six so fast... But it was a simple barrel roll and I was on their 6 because I caused them to overshoot :)
Slapshot, could you give a little more detail about how you guys were set up right before you engaged the final manuever ?
BOOT
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Maybe it's one of those FE/host issues. I know that sometimes when I do a snap roll reversal, it will look to the guy on my six like I flipped the plane but on my end it will look like a normal maneuver. Something about the maneuver being too fast for the host to process all the information.
Ack-Ack
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My guess about the flipping manuever is the ability of the 38 to go into a nose high and magically flip without stalling out sideways. This is due of course to the counter-rotating propellers, where torque is not a factor (the torque in an F4U during a nose high stalling reversal is awful, it'll fall sideways). Is this what you are referring to?
Jason
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I read an article by a real P38 Fighter Pilot who go the chance to fly a completely restored P38. After getting reacquainted with the "Monster" he started to try to use some of the maneuvers he used during the war. One Maneuver was cutting throttle to one engine and full throttle to the other engine, mixed with controls, he was actually able to reverse them P38 in the opposite direction.
Because Kappa reversed on me so quickly (as other more experienced AH P38 flyers seem to do to me), I was wondering if the same technique was used. If not, what are you doing to make the P38 turn quickly (stay with a Spit in a turn) at slow speed, without stalling ?
I have flown the P38 many times on JABO runs. On one flight, I was the only one working on destroying the town. This resulted in many turns to complete the job, and also forced me to go slow. With 2 notches of flaps, I had all I could do to keep it flying, and using full rudder, I was just barely able to make the turn and get a solution on the town.
Also, on these JABO runs, I have had to CAP the field, and if I make 1 pass at a Spit and it turns, I can't seem to stay with the turn (like Kappa did on me), and am forced to extend out and up.
I love the P38 and would like to be more effective in it.
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I'm not sure how they do it either.
But....
I do know that the P-38 has one hell of a snap spin. Departure seems faster than any plane in the set.
Possibly using that a method?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I read an article by a real P38 Fighter Pilot who go the chance to fly a completely restored P38. After getting reacquainted with the "Monster" he started to try to use some of the maneuvers he used during the war. One Maneuver was cutting throttle to one engine and full throttle to the other engine, mixed with controls, he was actually able to reverse them P38 in the opposite direction.
Because Kappa reversed on me so quickly (as other more experienced AH P38 flyers seem to do to me), I was wondering if the same technique was used. If not, what are you doing to make the P38 turn quickly (stay with a Spit in a turn) at slow speed, without stalling ?
I have flown the P38 many times on JABO runs. On one flight, I was the only one working on destroying the town. This resulted in many turns to complete the job, and also forced me to go slow. With 2 notches of flaps, I had all I could do to keep it flying, and using full rudder, I was just barely able to make the turn and get a solution on the town.
Also, on these JABO runs, I have had to CAP the field, and if I make 1 pass at a Spit and it turns, I can't seem to stay with the turn (like Kappa did on me), and am forced to extend out and up.
I love the P38 and would like to be more effective in it.
Maybe he's doing a barrel roll while you over shoot?
Ack-Ack
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The P-38's tail does not help you turn tighter like it would in any other plane. Dont turn with tail, just roll the plane and pull up. thats where 38 has an advantage with its quick snap-turn.
You can use engines to turn better in AH. I rarely find time to do it though, but it is usefull on the top of a hammerhead, lets you flip the plane sideways instead of up :D
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I know exactly what SlapShot is talking about but have no idea what to call it other than flipping the plane also.
On merge the 38 pulls hard up and flips over on top of you before or directly after you reach the top of your loop then passes you to pull the same manuver over and over until your dead. How do they do it?? I have film of a guy doing it to me and would love to know how to jump in his plane to see how he does it. Can i do that??
ZX
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The p38 can pull nonstop loops, untill it runs out of gas, is that what you're talking about?
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yeah someone mentioned doing this either AckAck or Leviathn i think... doing immelmans say 3x on the merge. of course being the absolute best pilot without a doubt in all AH, WB and AW history i the great kazibomb oh nevermind it's not working trying to believe i'm a better pilot lol
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Originally posted by Kaz
yeah someone mentioned doing this either AckAck or Leviathn i think... doing immelmans say 3x on the merge. of course being the absolute best pilot without a doubt in all AH, WB and AW history i the great kazibomb oh nevermind it's not working trying to believe i'm a better pilot lol
Unlike AW, where you only needed 250knots to pull off a Triple Immel, you need at least 400mph in AH to pull it off but only about 250mph for a Double Immel.
Ack-Ack
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Whats the best way to pull an immel in the p38, so as to bleed off as little speed as possible? 3g? 6g?
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Originally posted by Innominate
Whats the best way to pull an immel in the p38, so as to bleed off as little speed as possible? 3g? 6g?
IMO, if you start getting tunnel vision or blacking out, you're pulling way to many G's.
For a good write up on the Double Immel (or Vertical 8, as some call it), go to NetAces.org (http://www.netaces.org) and read RocketMan's lectures on the merge. He's an old time ex-AWer that has some excellent lectures on merge tactics including a fanstastic one on the Double Immel, including diagrams.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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Can you identify what you are trying to describe in one of these film clips?
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/akakmurdr_000_0022.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/akakmurdr_000_0022.ahf)
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/kappa_01414.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/kappa_01414.ahf)
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How'd you find that old thread?
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oops, I didnt even notice that. LOL, I figured out what I did though. I was looking at the Who's online menu, and someone was browsing this thread. I clicked on it, went afk, came back and started reading it, not even looking at the posting date <blush>. Oh well :)
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if he was comming over the top of a loop, i've found that if i cut my engines to idle, the nose kind of just falls over,,,,,then i poour on the coals.
think murdr or one of those p38 aces told me that one
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I would be curious to see how you make the roll that Kappa makes at about 1:15 into the fight. Great rate of roll with very little airspeed.
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Pretty sure that was elevator's to the edge, and kicking the rudders while dropping through stall speed. One wing stalls just ahead of the other and you get momentum for a quick roll.
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Have to find you in the TA one of these evenings if you wouldn't mind showing me that one.
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I do that rudder/roll as much as I can, I use approx 50% rudder, approx 70% in the same direction with a little elevator to induce the snaproll.
I have used my 2nd throttle to speed it up, but it rolls you so fast you can't control it and stop rolling where you want to be oriented.
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Pretty sure that was elevator's to the edge, and kicking the rudders while dropping through stall speed. One wing stalls just ahead of the other and you get momentum for a quick roll.
I do that one all the time in the 38G. Kinda learned it by accident, but find myself using it often...not that it helps :)
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I think he is talking about a stall maneuver Murdr does to me when we used to do 38 vs 38. Since he has has duel throttle control and I don't he was able to at stall speed go vert and cut off one engine and pretty much "cartwheel" in the air and drop down on me. I believe this may what Slapshot is talking about.
And I still call cheater for using dual throttle control Murdr. :aok
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Could I try using any of these maneuvers against an F4U-4? I don't exactly know what to do against a 4-Hog except dive, run and zoom. Can't get any angles on it since it performs just about better in every way than the P-38's.
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Can you identify what you are trying to describe in one of these film clips?
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/akakmurdr_000_0022.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/akakmurdr_000_0022.ahf)
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/kappa_01414.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/kappa_01414.ahf)
Thanks a lot PAL ... I had to wait 6 YEARS !!!! for your response ... :rofl
Now if only kappa would respond ... :rofl
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Rudder, flaps and reset switch on the router :lol
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Slap- Kappa is scheduled to reply in 2013 :) Next time I go afk for "oh crap!! my windows are down", I'll pay more attention when I get back to the puter :lol
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Slap- Kappa is scheduled to reply in 2013 :) Next time I go afk for "oh crap!! my windows are down", I'll pay more attention when I get back to the puter :lol
:rofl :aok