Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Custom Skins => Topic started by: 5PointOh on September 09, 2009, 05:15:58 PM
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B-17G-65-BO 43-37516 TONDALAYO : The tragedy of the Tondalayo unfolded around 9.15pm, when the Tondalayo ,returning from a leaflet drop on Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utrecht, was crossing inland over the east coast. At the same time two enemy aircraft, homeward bound after a sneak raid, were heading easterly at a lower altitude, which no doubt confused the defenders. At 12,000 feet, over Clacton-on-Sea, exploding shells set the aircraft alight in the area of the waist gun positions, severing control cables and injuring the Bombardier, Lt Connie Morton., who sustained injuries to his eyes and right leg. The aircraft rapidly descended to 8,000 feet, and was heading for an emergency landing at Woodbridge when the aircraft was hit again, crippling her further and this time injuring the tail gunner. It was at this point the 'bail out' order was given, all the crew abandoned the aircraft apart from Aber and Harper. Captain Stonerock (naviagator) was the last crewman through the hatch at 5,000ft , and later reported that both Aber and Harper had their harnesses on, but not their chutes, so it can only be assumed that they had insufficient time or altitude to do so.
This all matt black special operations aircraft was attached to the 406th Night Leaflet Squadron based at Cheddington, and was the personal aircraft of the unit's commander, Lt Col Aber, being retained by him when the squadron converted to Liberators. Aber was on his 51st mission when he was shot down. Lt Harper had flown Spitfires with the RCAF, before volunteering for a tour on 'Heavies.'
Source: http://www.redkitebooks.co.uk/AA/ev_b17harwich.html (http://www.redkitebooks.co.uk/AA/ev_b17harwich.html)
(http://www.redkitebooks.co.uk/AA/images/excavations/Missing/B17-Harwich07.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/ahss19.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/ahss22.jpg)
Couple of Night Shots (just in case it could fit into a snapshot somewhere)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/ahss20.jpg)
(http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z235/nathanyoung1980/ahss21.jpg)
PS...thanks Lyric
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Nice & evil looking. I like it Nate. Great job. :aok
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A bold skin for your first time out of the gate :aok Looking forward to see what else is next.
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That is a beautiful skin. seductive, sexy and evil.
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Another Tondalayo, I had no idea there were two planes with that name. There was a well known B-25 in the 345th BG in the Pacific that had quite a harrowing ordeal while attacking Rabaul.
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Another Tondalayo, I had no idea there were two planes with that name. There was a well known B-25 in the 345th BG in the Pacific that had quite a harrowing ordeal while attacking Rabaul.
Just take a look at how many known B24's have the same name well almost the same. http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-T-TONA-TONH.htm My guess a popular song or movie of that era is the cause of the multiple vehicles with the same or similar type of name.
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From what I understand Tondalayo was a character in a movie during the 40s. "White Cargo" was the movie and Hedy Lamarr was "Tondalayo.
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From what I understand Tondalayo was a character in a movie during the 40s. "White Cargo" was the movie and Hedy Lamarr was "Tondalayo.
That's Hedley!
Looks good, looks rather evil. :)
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That's Hedley!
Looks good, looks rather evil. :)
beat me to it
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Oh yes... a plane on a training mission was shot down.
riiiiiiight.
IMO not "worthy" of being in AH. But hey, we have skins just as unworthy already in-game.
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How is a leaflet drop a "training mission"?
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Don't listen to krusty, the rest of us don't. If he spent as much time working on his own skins instead of complaining about other peoples then his might start looking half way decent.
As for the skin, it looks good. Would you mind posting a hires photo so we can get a better look at the detailing.
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Oh yes... a plane on a training mission was shot down.
riiiiiiight.
IMO not "worthy" of being in AH. But hey, we have skins just as unworthy already in-game.
Confused about the training mission comment? Please elaborate.
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Don't listen to krusty, the rest of us don't. If he spent as much time working on his own skins instead of complaining about other peoples then his might start looking half way decent.
As for the skin, it looks good. Would you mind posting a hires photo so we can get a better look at the detailing.
You know (and Krusty don't take this wrong or anything, you're a great guy), but I have to agree Larry. It's almost like playing that someone in golf or any other sport and saying "Hey, even though you're beating my brains out I Saw this, this, and this wrong with your swing. You need to fix that right away to become good..."
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lol
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You know (and Krusty don't take this wrong or anything, you're a great guy), but I have to agree Larry. It's almost like playing that someone in golf or any other sport and saying "Hey, even though you're beating my brains out I Saw this, this, and this wrong with your swing. You need to fix that right away to become good..."
You don't think Tiger Woods has a swing coach? I garuntee you he not only know someone whom does exactly that, but he PAYS them to do it.
There is nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism.
However, I'm not sure I understood Krusty's, due to the tone and lack of details. Krusty, are you talking about it unworthy due to some error in the skin or issue, or just the fact that it was a "training bird"?
If the former, I'm sure using a bit of tact in the comment would help 5pointOh make his skin even better! If the latter, isn't it really Hitech's call whether or not it gets in game?
5pointOh, any chance you can get a bigger/closer/higher res screenshot to see detail better? It might just be my screen but it comes out really dark and hard to see.
:salute for the hard work!
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406th Night Leaflet Squadron
When the 406th Squadron designation was turned back to 8th Air Force following the reorganization of 13 August 1944, it was given to a special squadron at Cheddington composed of B-24s and B-17s. Unlike the daylight bombers, who dropped their leaflets at high altitude, and the Carpetbaggers, who dropped their propaganda by hand, the 406th NLS flew at medium altitudes and dropped sophisticated leaflet “bombs” in cardboard cylinders which dispersed the leaflets over a wide area. Additionally, because they were involved later in the war, most of their propaganda was directed toward destroying the enemy’s. will to fight.
So I'm not sure where the "training mission" comes from.
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Great work on the B17, Coprhead!
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Sorry for digging this one back up after all this time.
I found a colour photo of this plane thought it was worth posting.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/b17-1.jpg)
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training flight shot down by friendly fire... I still don't think it has any place in the game.
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Bomb symbols on the CO's bird would seem to indicate it was used operationally Krusty. What the caption appears to state is that it got lost and was hit in an Allied flak belt. This happened any number of times to operational aircraft.
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lol
QFT.
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It was a propaganda bomber it dropped leaflets if I remember correctly.
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training flight shot down by friendly fire... I still don't think it has any place in the game.
Can you not read well or something? Where do you get "training" flight? They were returning from an operational mission.
Take a valium dude.
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It was a propaganda bomber it dropped leaflets if I remember correctly.
Flying over Germany prior to the friendly fire on it's return. Sure seems like a combat bird to me. Just cause it didn't drop a bomb, doesn't mean the crew wasn't flying combat. The 17s of the 406th NLS were stationed with the 305th BG. Again the mission symbols are for operations. It wasn't just flying around England :)
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Take a valium dude.
He needs more than to do that.....
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milk runs, aka leaflet drops, were essentially training runs or "bye weeks" if you're a football fan. There was as little chance of meeting the enemy as possible, and considering the fact the plane was specially painted all black it was exclusively flying only leaflet drops. Or training missions. Perhaps it WAS technically combat.... But then even the desk jockey manning the requisition desk in England was technically in combat.
Doesn't mean it was particularly action oriented.
Such missions were assigned for a number of reasons, but the areas being "pampletted" were not the most hostile, nor were they defended much.
P.S. It was doing this in March 1945. The war was a few weeks from over at the time.
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By the way, I have nothing against the name.... There were many a good and valiant Tondelayo B-17s and B-25s... Any of which would be a great addition to the skins list. This was only added as a gimmick because "it was black! OMG! Must have in-game!"
well, not literally but I see that knee-jerk reaction in a number of skins. Including, say, training skins for N1k2s and captured skins for other planes. Let us not revisit the "a black P-38 would be awesome!" sentiment that took many years to squash (and many years to get OUT of the skins list!).
There is a higher standard for these skins than the random IL2 stuff you find. Being a relevant combat skin (not a training skin, or not a captured skin, or not an unarmed circus formation skin, etc) is a key part of any of these skins in-game. I find this one lessens that standard.
It's the principle of the matter, not the skin itself. I think he did an okay job on the skin itself. I want to point that out.
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milk runs, aka leaflet drops, were essentially training runs or "bye weeks" if you're a football fan. There was as little chance of meeting the enemy as possible, and considering the fact the plane was specially painted all black it was exclusively flying only leaflet drops. Or training missions. Perhaps it WAS technically combat.... But then even the desk jockey manning the requisition desk in England was technically in combat.
Doesn't mean it was particularly action oriented.
Such missions were assigned for a number of reasons, but the areas being "pampletted" were not the most hostile, nor were they defended much.
P.S. It was doing this in March 1945. The war was a few weeks from over at the time.
They started Operations in September 43 Krusty. 2,302 operational sorties flying over Germany and as far as Norway.. Seems to me they were taking the risk like everyone else. They carried guns for a reason. They actually claimed 3 E/A kills and 1 damaged so apparently they ran into the occasional night fighter.
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Reading how she went down makes me angry.
How many 4-engine enemy bombers would appear over Harwich in 1945? As opposed to being a lost Allied bomber?
Trigger happy flak crew.
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They started Operations in September 43 Krusty. 2,302 operational sorties flying over Germany and as far as Norway.. Seems to me they were taking the risk like everyone else. They carried guns for a reason. They actually claimed 3 E/A kills and 1 damaged so apparently they ran into the occasional night fighter.
Oh, yeah? I find that highly unlikely. 2302 sorties, maybe in total? Mar 1945... That's about 1.5 years from Sept '43. That's only 547 days. You're saying this one plane flew over 4 sorties a day? Most B-17s flew 1 mission a week... or 1 every 2 or 3 weeks.
So then we get to the overall totals.... They don't apply to this plane. What missions did it fly? In those markings? I think not many. An all-black B-17G flying in formation? There'd be millions of pictures of it, simply for the novelty of it. It was a specialty set of markings for night missions, and the US didn't do night bombing. Not in B-17s. Mostly you get leaflet drops. Pamplet runs. Because you weren't lugging around bombs you could afford the hundreds of pounds added by a thick black paintjob, and the drag inherent with it.
So tell me the combat record of this plane. This particular set of markings. As I mentioned I have nothing against the name, even the unit. But the historical record of this particular skin is unworthy of inclusion. Prove me wrong. Sway my opinion. What saving grace does it have that merits inclusion into the game other than the instant first-reaction of "It's black! Must have!"
I am honestly willing to be swayed, but it just ain't happening so far.
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No you are just being silly Krusty. On the night that B17 was shot down, there were 12 planes total from the squadron sent out. One B17 and 11 B24s. The photo below shows one of their all black 24s
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/blackbombers.jpg)
I count 19 bomb symbols on that 17. Note how they are shown on the 24 in the same position. So it had 19 operational missions when that photo was taken. That makes at least 20 since it went down on an operational sortie and I doubt they painted it on before hand.
The unit tended to send out up to a dozen bombers a night, which accounted for the sorties over the years.
Here is one of their earlier B17Fs. Note at this point it was an all gloss black undersides. Also note the flash suppressors on the MGs and the modified better vision top turret. I'm assuming they took the 17G clear turret dome and adapted it to the F.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/Black17.jpg)
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Flying over Germany prior to the friendly fire on it's return. Sure seems like a combat bird to me. Just cause it didn't drop a bomb, doesn't mean the crew wasn't flying combat. The 17s of the 406th NLS were stationed with the 305th BG. Again the mission symbols are for operations. It wasn't just flying around England :)
Agreed :aok I don't take issue of this plane being used in game.
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Let us not revisit the "a black P-38 would be awesome!"
:D
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/736505b2e1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/064333cd78.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/9595ce9fe9.jpg)
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No, I'm not being silly. I want to be shown where this plane with these markings was used against enemy targets with actual intent to bomb them.
Pamplette missions weren't combat. Just because they went on the missions (and tallied them up) doesn't mean anything other than they had a lot of pamplette missions!
In March 1945 simply flying "over Germany" didn't make it a combat mission. In March of 1945 you were more likely to run across SOVIETS over Germany than you were Germans!
By 18 april allied ground forces were already 70 miles from Berlin itself.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Advance_through_Germany_-_5-18_April_1945.jpg
So flying leaflettes over already-pacified cities is as risk free as you can get. They were probably sending notices about how civilians won't be harmed, surrender your weapons, etc, so that occupying forces had an easier time.
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So a recon mission by a Mossie XVI or a Spit IX or a F5 Lightning, wouldn't count as a combat mission as they only took pictures? C-47s dropping paratroops or supplies in hostile areas aren't flying combat? You don't drop leaflets on folks you are already in control of. You drop them in areas where you hope to get and you are preparing the way
It's all part of the same overall plan to operate the airwar. If you are operating over enemy territory with the potential to meet enemy aircraft or to deal with enemy flak and go down in enemy territory, it sure seems like a combat mission to me.
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They were in combat and I find it offensive that you would say something like that Krusty.
The men of that b-17 did their duty and were in just as much danger as any other b-17 in the war.
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http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/Aber/AberCrew.html
Here is a webpage on the Aber Crew and the Tondalayo. In it you will see the Night Leaflet Squadrons Operations reports (Jun44-Jul45). In that is the flights that the Tondalayo made (just look for 516 on the left side) Might be some intresting information that yall could use.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html)
"Some basic guidlines:
- We will not accept skins containing the swastiska. NOTE: If you are making a skin that originally had a swastiska, just leave the spot blank where the swastiska would have been, or change the swatiska to the Iron Cross. Use your best judgement on this.
- We will not accept skins that alter the overall shape of the object.
- We will only accept skins that were historically used in World War II.
- Only submit the files/skins you actually change from the original.
- The text description file must be named by the object name, such as p51d.txt for a P51D skin, for example."
Gladly there's zero room for speculation here. The skin here meets the general guidelines set by HTC.
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/skins.html)
"Some basic guidlines:
- We will not accept skins containing the swastiska. NOTE: If you are making a skin that originally had a swastiska, just leave the spot blank where the swastiska would have been, or change the swatiska to the Iron Cross. Use your best judgement on this.
- We will not accept skins that alter the overall shape of the object.
- We will only accept skins that were historically used in World War II.
- Only submit the files/skins you actually change from the original.
- The text description file must be named by the object name, such as p51d.txt for a P51D skin, for example."
Gladly there's zero room for speculation here. The skin here meets the general guidelines set by HTC.
Nice try, but no. It says right there "basic guidelines" and is not specific. We know for a fact that HTC has other criteria that they have expressed on the forums.
We know that no circus formation planes are allowed, as they were unarmed. We know no unarmed recon is allowed (save for the new Moss16, which is a singular case). We know that no captured skins are allowed. We know that no noncombatant skins were allowed. We know that combat skins are part of the criteria.
None of these things are on that "basic guidelines" page. You can't simply quote that page and pretend it's the end of the topic. It is simply a weak attempt on your part to imply as much, because you know better.
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Nice try, but no.
I didn't "try" anything. I quoted the only source who's opinion matters wheater something get accepted or not.
It is simply a weak attempt on your part to imply as much, because you know better.
See above. And btw, you've truly managed to make a royal a** of yourself in this thread.
Sorties that have a clear operational goal whatever it may be are not training flights.
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http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/Aber/AberCrew.html
Here is a webpage on the Aber Crew and the Tondalayo. In it you will see the Night Leaflet Squadrons Operations reports (Jun44-Jul45). In that is the flights that the Tondalayo made (just look for 516 on the left side) Might be some intresting information that yall could use.
A couple of the links are broken but I just finished reading through this:
http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/98Spring%20Air%20Power%20History%20(Leaflet%20Dropping%20in%20World%20War%20II).pdf
Very informative to any interested in what these bombers actually did. They were paper boys (to turn a phrase used in the article) most times delivering news leaflettes to update occupied civilians of what's going on in the larger war.
The entire unit was specifically made for leaflet dropping and was not used for any bombing missions. It doesn't sound as if they EVER ran into an enemy aircraft through the history of the unit, so far as I've been reading.
KILO: You need to look at the facts. This was about as far removed from combat as you could be and still be in-theater. Sure, there was a chance they could get shot down -- but same goes for the mail delivery planes. Same goes for the gas transport B-29s haulling supplies over to China. Same goes for any number of other "missions" which were non-combat in nature and not taking the fight to anyone or anything.
These aircraft were not bombers. To skin them as such -- to throw your sentiment back at you just to prove a point -- is offensive to those that WERE bombers.
WMAKER: you always revert to insults. You are 100% biased against anything I have ever posted, so I'm just going to ignore you. My point stands very strongly on its own 2 feet and on what HTC has said in the past on a LARGE number of topics which you choose blatantly to ignore. It is HTCs opinion that has been expressed and based on these other points of interest (which you gloss over and ignore) there is very valid concern that this skin doesn't belong in the game. Nor do a small selection of others already in-game, but that's for another topic.
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A couple of the links are broken but I just finished reading through this:
http://www.801492.org/Air%20Crew/98Spring%20Air%20Power%20History%20(Leaflet%20Dropping%20in%20World%20War%20II).pdf
Very informative to any interested in what these bombers actually did. They were paper boys (to turn a phrase used in the article) most times delivering news leaflettes to update occupied civilians of what's going on in the larger war.
The entire unit was specifically made for leaflet dropping and was not used for any bombing missions. It doesn't sound as if they EVER ran into an enemy aircraft through the history of the unit, so far as I've been reading.
KILO: You need to look at the facts. This was about as far removed from combat as you could be and still be in-theater. Sure, there was a chance they could get shot down -- but same goes for the mail delivery planes. Same goes for the gas transport B-29s haulling supplies over to China. Same goes for any number of other "missions" which were non-combat in nature and not taking the fight to anyone or anything.
These aircraft were not bombers. To skin them as such -- to throw your sentiment back at you just to prove a point -- is offensive to those that WERE bombers.
WMAKER: you always revert to insults. You are 100% biased against anything I have ever posted, so I'm just going to ignore you. My point stands very strongly on its own 2 feet and on what HTC has said in the past on a LARGE number of topics which you choose blatantly to ignore. It is HTCs opinion that has been expressed and based on these other points of interest (which you gloss over and ignore) there is very valid concern that this skin doesn't belong in the game. Nor do a small selection of others already in-game, but that's for another topic.
Krusty you are very wrong in this case. They were bombers, and operated by bomber crews, armed as bombers. There bomb load happened to be leaflets. They were flying over enemy territory and just as susceptible to enemy fire as any of the other bombers flying at night. Considering how you are quick to point out how boring some of the Allied skins can be, I'd think you'd be all for something that was a combat bird and has a different look.
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That doesn't really apply as "combat" though, does it? It's a weak excuse to use exotic markings -- which were so marked because this plane was NOT used in regular combat.
So, it all goes back to "OMG! It's black! Must have in-game, don't care about the backstory!"
I'm all for interesting skins but frankly there are plenty of "legit" ones to choose from with lots of variety without having to resort to this kind of tactic.
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WMAKER: you always revert to insults. You are 100% biased against anything I have ever posted, so I'm just going to ignore you. My point stands very strongly on its own 2 feet and on what HTC has said in the past on a LARGE number of topics which you choose blatantly to ignore. It is HTCs opinion that has been expressed and based on these other points of interest (which you gloss over and ignore) there is very valid concern that this skin doesn't belong in the game. Nor do a small selection of others already in-game, but that's for another topic.
Considering your tone in this thread (and on several others) nothing that I now posted is an insult but a fact. I think the faith of this particular aircraft is rather telling that these men put their lives on the line. Friendly fire is a very real danger in a war. I certainly couldn't say it to their faces that they weren't flying combat missions. The FiAF Storch which I posted a thread about was used as a liason aircraft by FiAF HQ, transporting, mail, people, orders, documents and so on. Want to make a bet weather or not it will make it to the game? It served an airforce engaged in an air war like other aircraft of the said airforce.
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That doesn't really apply as "combat" though, does it? It's a weak excuse to use exotic markings -- which were so marked because this plane was NOT used in regular combat.
So, it all goes back to "OMG! It's black! Must have in-game, don't care about the backstory!"
I'm all for interesting skins but frankly there are plenty of "legit" ones to choose from with lots of variety without having to resort to this kind of tactic.
But this one has a back story, and a tragic one at that.
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Considering your tone in this thread (and several others) nothing that I now posted is an insult but a fact. I think the faith of this particular aircraft is rather telling that these men put their lives on the line. Friendly fire is a very real danger in a war. I certainly couldn't say it to their faces that they weren't flying combat missions. The FiAF Storch which I posted a thread about was used as a liason aircraft by FiAF HQ, transporting, mail, people, orders, documents and so on. Want to make a bet weather or not it will make it to the game? It served an airforce engaged in an air war like other aircraft of the said airforce.
False argument. Not fact. Biased opinion slandering me in a thread to satisfy your own hate or perhaps attempt to make others join in.
Your other comments don't apply either. I don't disagree these men SERVED.... but that isn't really combat. Nor is it combat when Japanese pilot trainees were shot down on training flights. Nor is it combat when Kurt Tank claimed to be chased by P-51s in his Ta152 prototype. There is a major difference between COMBAT and "hostile situtations"...
People in Iraq and Afghanistan have died horrible deaths while not in combat. These are not combat troops by their own definition, but supply troops, support units, convoys, transports, etc.
I'm not denying they SERVED, but there is a distinct difference between serving and fighting in a combat unit. You can die from any number of things, none pleasant. That doesn't make this a bomber unit, nor does it make them a combat squadron, nor does it make their missions combat. They were not taking the fight to the enemy. They were not searching for anything to shoot or bomb or recon or ANYTHING. They were a propoganda and news unit, devised ONLY for that purpose to the exclusion of all other duties.
They didn't carry bombs, they didn't drop them on war targets, they didn't shoot at airplanes or objects on the ground.
You really can't defend it other than the "OMG! it's black!" reaction.
Combat is the intent to take the fight to the enemy and intend to destroy them. Without that intent, it's not really combat.
GUPPY: All such losses are tragic. There are many many many (too many to even count) thoughout that war and many others. It doesn't make it any less tragic. It doesn't mean it was combat, though. Shall we make a skin for every pilot that died because he ground looped his plane on landing after an uneventful career? We'd have millions of skins.
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Combat is the intent to take the fight to the enemy and intend to destroy them. Without that intent, it's not really combat.
Combat involves so much more than this.
No point in discussing with you. Like I said, let's see if that FiAF Storch will get in. So many Storches served in various missions where their exact roles and missions history might be next to impossible to track and I'm sure they will be accepted regardless just like they should too. You can have whatever opnion you like, but gladly, you aren't really "calling the shots" in any shape or form. All you are is a slight annoyance as it is HTC which says what skin submissions get accepted and which don't. I just hope more and more skinners will just totally ignore you and submit and let HTC sort them out.
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Combat involves so much more than this.
No point in discussing with you. Like I said, let's see if that FiAF Storch will get in. So many Storches served in various missions where their exact roles and missions history might be next to impossible to track and I'm sure they will be accepted regardless just like they should too. You can have whatever opnion you like, but gladly, you aren't really "calling the shots" in any shape or form. All you are is a slight annoyance as it is HTC which says what skin submissions get accepted and which don't. I just hope more and more skinners will just totally ignore you and submit and let HTC sort them out.
Oh, but there is point in discussing it. The storch cannot be used as a parallel for B-17 skins. The storch by nature was a noncombat plane, armed with a gun only for self defense. Its nature was a communications plane or a personal transport in some cases. It performed many duties, but it was not a combat plane. Nor was it a B-17 being flown with no bombs and no intent to drop bombs.
So you cannot be taken seriously if you pretend the 2 situations are similar.
I hope YOU find a way to leave these forums in peace and never return, but frankly I don't think that will happen.
As you have said, it is HTC who calls the shots. I'm not making anything up here. I'm citing HTC's past rulings on the matter and you conveniently ignore them simply to perpetuate an opposing stance to mine. I'm not calling the shots nor am I being antagonistic like you are. I'm saying (quite factually) that this skin doesn't belong on this plane in this game because of those reasons already laid out.
We've seen from past experience HTC doesn't have a perfect fact-checking record on all skin submissions. We've seen skins submitted intentionally with the skinner knowing it was a noncombat skin and hoping HTC didn't know better. We've seen that just spamming HTC with invalid skins only proves to get invalid skins in the game which take years and many dozens of fans complaining to get them removed. We've seen that HTC does read this forum and despite your bluster does use peer review to help them in their research for reviewing skin submissions.
Your intention is simply to disrupt the entire process, by your own admission (spamming all skins regardless of legitimacy and hope they all get accepted).
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Your intention is simply to disrupt the entire process, by your own admission (spamming all skins regardless of legitimacy and hope they all get accepted).
Heh, based on what?
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In addition to the upcoming Storch skins, there's plenty of PR-Mossie16 skins and in the game and I'm glad that they are there. They used cameras instead of bombs but I'm glad that the skins are there to remind us of that part of the war aswell. Read our replies and see who's blowing things out of proportion with constant hypebole and assumptions about my motives. As said, I'm glad that it's HTC which decides what goes into the game and what doesn't all you are is a slight annoyance. :)
I'll leave it at that.
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People in Iraq and Afghanistan have died horrible deaths while not in combat. These are not combat troops by their own definition, but supply troops, support units, convoys, transports, etc.
I'm not denying they SERVED, but there is a distinct difference between serving and fighting in a combat unit. You can die from any number of things, none pleasant. That doesn't make this a bomber unit, nor does it make them a combat squadron, nor does it make their missions combat. They were not taking the fight to the enemy. They were not searching for anything to shoot or bomb or recon or ANYTHING. They were a propoganda and news unit, devised ONLY for that purpose to the exclusion of all other duties.
I know a few people who served in those comvoys and support units, and I bet if you tell them they were not in combat, they would punch you in your face. They are under constant threat to being attack.
The Tondalayo was flying combat missions, no doubt about it. Was it attacking with bombs, no. But it was a fully armed bomber, flying into constant threat of being shot down.
Perfect example is the Spit 14 skin with the camera we have in game. That plane was flying and taking photos of targets, but she was fully armed for defence. Same as the Tondalayo.
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Had of known one colour photograph was going to stir this mess up I would not have bothered. :(
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Pamplette missions weren't combat.
Right. Sending for h=mvees aro=nd Iraq with sole intent of swaying the enemy and trying to
keep the pop=lation on o=r side isn't combat at all. J=st pamplette missions, right?
Right.
uc
['yoo' key does not work. hardware malfnction]
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Had of known one colour photograph was going to stir this mess up I would not have bothered. :(
Don't sweat it Lyric..I liked your post :aok As for Krusty...well what can you say? He obviously hasn't changed much
in the past couple years :D
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Had of known one colour photograph was going to stir this mess up I would not have bothered. :(
Glad you posted it. It was a bird I hadn't seen before with a unique history. Not sure why Krusty has decided to make this one a 'cause'. I would like to see it get done by someone who can do that skin well. I'd also like to see a couple of the all black B24s that flew both in the PTO and ETO.
An all gray MTO B17 Pathfinder and all gray B24 Pathfinder skin would be nice too
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How many of the leaflet droppers were shot down by enemy fire?
Any?,
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How many of the leaflet droppers were shot down by enemy fire?
Any?,
Three from that particular unit
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Three from that particular unit
....well dose that not sum it up.
So Krusty? Would one of the planes shot by enemy fire be acceptable to you?
If so you will have to except the rest of the unit.
:cheers:
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So Krusty? Would one of the planes shot by enemy fire be acceptable to you?
Krusty can be rather stubborn, I don't think showing him a Luftwaffe night-fighter and a one of the leaflet dropping birds side by side at an excavation site would convince him the leaflet droppers saw combat. Heck, you could have the pilots of those planes locked in a struggle to the death with their bare hands at the same excavation site and it still wouldn't be enough.
kom·bat
[v. kuhm-bat, kom-bat, kuhm-; n. kom-bat, kuhm-] Show IPA verb, -bat·ed, -bat·ing or ( especially British ) -bat·ted, -bat·ting, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to fight or contend against; oppose vigorously: to combat crime.
verb (used without object)
2. to battle; contend: to combat with disease.
noun
3. Military . active, armed fighting with enemy forces.
4. a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas.
To be blunt, the skin rotation is entirely up to HTC, the skinning team, and (to a VERY small extent) the AH community. Unless the community can completely disprove the historical basis the skin is modeled after, it moves on to the bowels of HTC where Skuzzy and the skinning team sacrifice goats and dismember monkeys in an attempt to get skins into the game*.
If it was up to me, I wouldn't allow any night based skins since no night takes place in the MA, but leave them available for scenario type events. I'm glad I'm not in charge, seems like a lot of effort just to have people complain regardless of how hard you work.
*Note: Uncle Cy's Angel is not included in his process and has been eliminated from ever seeing the virtual light of Aces High.
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BEYOND ALLIED LINES, SOMEWHERE OVER EASTERN GERMANY
By Romney Wheeler (AP
"April 15 - I am flying with the Word of Doom for Nazi Germany!
Ten minutes ago we crossed the West Front battle line beyond the River Salle. We have dropped bombs on our first target and are boring deeper into Hitler’s last stronghold toward a second. To the north lay by-passed Leipzig. Beyond us lies the devastation that was Dreeden - and beyond that a Russian cyclone gathering force along the Oder and the Neisse.
Somewhere beneath us the spearheads of General Hodges are driving deeper into Germany’s vitals. We know it because four miles below us all Germany is burning.
This is total war, as Germany never imagined it! We literally are carrying the Word of Doom to Germany, for packed in the belly of this jet-black Liberator are a dozen bombs - loaded not with high explosives, but with leaflets telling Hitler’s Wehrmacht and Hitler’s civilians that this is the end….and leaflets calling for surrender.
Lieut. Bruce Edgerton, pilot, of Washington, D.C., lifts Midnight Mistress a bit higher as we swerve toward our next target. It is shortly after midnight, and moonless, but the stars are bright and there is only a light ground haze. We can see fires everywhere - most of them large ones, indicating destruction of entire towns.
“Three minutes to target” says the voice of our navigator, Lieut. John A. Alexander, of East Liverpool, Ohio.
Roger-dodger,” replies our pilot.
This big plane of the Eighth Air Force, 406th Squadron is quiet except for the roar of its four engines as we bear down on our target. The destruction going on below us seems unreal. Can this be Hitler’s inner fortress? Our maps and navigation tell us we are more that 300 miles inside Germany; scarcely 25 miles from the frontier of Czechoslovakia - and only 75 miles from the Russian lines.
Now we are bearing to the north, and off our left wing we can see flashes of heavy guns. Somewhere down there Hodges men are hitting Jerry where it hurts.
“One minute to target,” says the navigator, and our bombardier, Lieut. Carlo Zuniga of Mira Loma, Calif., prepares to hit another one on the nose.
“If you got any flak,” cautions our navigator, “turn left or you’ll be right over Dresden.”
“Rodger-dodger,” is the reply.
Our co-pilot explains bout flak. “In the daytime you can see bursts of brown smoke, but at night it is just a flash - and hard to judge distance,” says Lieut. A.H. Franke, of Spokane, Wash. “Sometimes it looks like stars.”
“Yep,” observes Staff Sgt. Emmerson Miller of Chrisney, Ind., tail-gunner, on the inter-com. “Stars that go out are flak.”
“Target” says the navigator, quietly.
“Bombs away,” answers Zuniga.
“One - two - three - four,” counts Tech. Sgt. James K. Echols of Sardusky, Ohio, our radioman, as he checks the bombs dropping into the darkness.
We set a new course farther west. Now there are fewer fires and the gun-flashes are diminishing. We are beyond even the deepest spearheads.
This target is important.
Our waist gunners attend to the cargo - Staff Sgt. Larue Shipley of Caldwell, Idaho; and Staff Sgt. Charles W. Strain of Crete, Neb. A moment after “target” they report: “Cargo over”.
We wheel sharply and take a compass heading for home. Some German field flak installations pick us up, but we are flying too high and too fast.
“Let’s get the Hell out of here,” says our pilot, stepping up the engine revolutions.
We are south of Leipzig again, and again the ground haze reddens with fires raging more than four miles below us. One massive conflagration obviously is an oil fire.
“Something down there is burning like Hell,” says Staff Sgt. George W. Knott, of Chester, Penn, our ball gunner. “Look at those flames roll!”
We hold our altitude and roar westward toward England. We swing wide to avoid the Ruhr pocket, but we can see continuous flashes which tell us of massive artillery pounding to this doomed island of resistance. Inside the pocket there is an angry flare of many fires - fires consuming Nazi towns and villages.
Further west we see heavy artillery bombardment in Holland - the battle line where Montgomery’s troops are pressing forward. Then we are over the North Sea.
Tech. Sgt. Ralph W. Wise of Nabb, Ind., our engineer, checks our fuel. We have been in the air nearly eight hours most of that time on oxygen, and the weather at our home field is closing in. By the time we reach the airdrome, an original 800-foot ceiling has disappeared. Even at 300 feet we cannot break out. Finally we head for an RAF field 80 miles away, where they think they can take us in.
It is almost dawn when Midnight Mistress drops down on the runway - nine hours in the air from take-off at dusk when we headed for Germany. "
Sure sounds like combat...
http://www.bomberlegends.com/pdf/BL_Mag_v1-3-SecretSquad.pdf
Technically.... they were leaflet canister "bombs" that blew open.
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*Note: Uncle Cy's Angel is not included in his process and has been eliminated from ever seeing the virtual light of Aces High.
Say what? Did I miss something somewhere? What happened to Uncle Cy's Angel? Hpw'd she get eliminated?
My most recent submission (P-38J "Journey's End") was submitted last January. I never received a confirmation email, but in June I got an acceptance email saying the skin was in the 38J queue. It's December now and the 16 skin limit has been doubled, so I assume Journey's End is out of the queue. But she was not in the last skin update.
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I'd also like to see a couple of the all black B24s that flew both in the PTO and ETO.
I have quite a few of these one that is in game now. All black B25-C as well that I gave to a skinner that I can't recall who it was :headscratch: It was that long ago.
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BEYOND ALLIED LINES, SOMEWHERE OVER EASTERN GERMANY
By Romney Wheeler (AP
"April 15 - I am flying with the Word of Doom for Nazi Germany!
Ten minutes ago we crossed the West Front battle line beyond the River Salle. We have dropped bombs on our first target and are boring deeper into Hitler’s last stronghold toward a second. To the north lay by-passed Leipzig. Beyond us lies the devastation that was Dreeden - and beyond that a Russian cyclone gathering force along the Oder and the Neisse.
Somewhere beneath us the spearheads of General Hodges are driving deeper into Germany’s vitals. We know it because four miles below us all Germany is burning.
This is total war, as Germany never imagined it! We literally are carrying the Word of Doom to Germany, for packed in the belly of this jet-black Liberator are a dozen bombs - loaded not with high explosives, but with leaflets telling Hitler’s Wehrmacht and Hitler’s civilians that this is the end….and leaflets calling for surrender.
Lieut. Bruce Edgerton, pilot, of Washington, D.C., lifts Midnight Mistress a bit higher as we swerve toward our next target. It is shortly after midnight, and moonless, but the stars are bright and there is only a light ground haze. We can see fires everywhere - most of them large ones, indicating destruction of entire towns.
“Three minutes to target” says the voice of our navigator, Lieut. John A. Alexander, of East Liverpool, Ohio.
Roger-dodger,” replies our pilot.
This big plane of the Eighth Air Force, 406th Squadron is quiet except for the roar of its four engines as we bear down on our target. The destruction going on below us seems unreal. Can this be Hitler’s inner fortress? Our maps and navigation tell us we are more that 300 miles inside Germany; scarcely 25 miles from the frontier of Czechoslovakia - and only 75 miles from the Russian lines.
Now we are bearing to the north, and off our left wing we can see flashes of heavy guns. Somewhere down there Hodges men are hitting Jerry where it hurts.
“One minute to target,” says the navigator, and our bombardier, Lieut. Carlo Zuniga of Mira Loma, Calif., prepares to hit another one on the nose.
“If you got any flak,” cautions our navigator, “turn left or you’ll be right over Dresden.”
“Rodger-dodger,” is the reply.
Our co-pilot explains bout flak. “In the daytime you can see bursts of brown smoke, but at night it is just a flash - and hard to judge distance,” says Lieut. A.H. Franke, of Spokane, Wash. “Sometimes it looks like stars.”
“Yep,” observes Staff Sgt. Emmerson Miller of Chrisney, Ind., tail-gunner, on the inter-com. “Stars that go out are flak.”
“Target” says the navigator, quietly.
“Bombs away,” answers Zuniga.
“One - two - three - four,” counts Tech. Sgt. James K. Echols of Sardusky, Ohio, our radioman, as he checks the bombs dropping into the darkness.
We set a new course farther west. Now there are fewer fires and the gun-flashes are diminishing. We are beyond even the deepest spearheads.
This target is important.
Our waist gunners attend to the cargo - Staff Sgt. Larue Shipley of Caldwell, Idaho; and Staff Sgt. Charles W. Strain of Crete, Neb. A moment after “target” they report: “Cargo over”.
We wheel sharply and take a compass heading for home. Some German field flak installations pick us up, but we are flying too high and too fast.
“Let’s get the Hell out of here,” says our pilot, stepping up the engine revolutions.
We are south of Leipzig again, and again the ground haze reddens with fires raging more than four miles below us. One massive conflagration obviously is an oil fire.
“Something down there is burning like Hell,” says Staff Sgt. George W. Knott, of Chester, Penn, our ball gunner. “Look at those flames roll!”
We hold our altitude and roar westward toward England. We swing wide to avoid the Ruhr pocket, but we can see continuous flashes which tell us of massive artillery pounding to this doomed island of resistance. Inside the pocket there is an angry flare of many fires - fires consuming Nazi towns and villages.
Further west we see heavy artillery bombardment in Holland - the battle line where Montgomery’s troops are pressing forward. Then we are over the North Sea.
Tech. Sgt. Ralph W. Wise of Nabb, Ind., our engineer, checks our fuel. We have been in the air nearly eight hours most of that time on oxygen, and the weather at our home field is closing in. By the time we reach the airdrome, an original 800-foot ceiling has disappeared. Even at 300 feet we cannot break out. Finally we head for an RAF field 80 miles away, where they think they can take us in.
It is almost dawn when Midnight Mistress drops down on the runway - nine hours in the air from take-off at dusk when we headed for Germany. "
Sure sounds like combat...
http://www.bomberlegends.com/pdf/BL_Mag_v1-3-SecretSquad.pdf
Technically.... they were leaflet canister "bombs" that blew open.
Thanks for that :aok interesting that the B24 in question is the one in the pic I posted. Midnight Mistress.
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Thanks for that :aok interesting that the B24 in question is the one in the pic I posted. Midnight Mistress.
Did you read the last page of the pdf? Other events of the tour? I think the combat controversy is over.
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Did you read the last page of the pdf? Other events of the tour? I think the combat controversy is over.
No I hadn't. Yeah I think that about covers combat :)
I didn't notice that they had that same photo of Midnite Mistress. Someone should do that bird too.
Very nice find. :aok
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Reading through it, seems Midnight Mistress was attacked and damaged by Ju-88 Night fighters several times, plus they encountered a Me-262 during the final days of the war.
Although this article that Megalodon posted was about a B-24 named Midnight Mistress, (which I think would make a great skin), it shows that this squadron did indeed fly combat missions and encounted enemy aircraft at various times.
I hope that these do make it into the game, would be neat and fun to fly with them.
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I have quite a few of these one that is in game now. All black B25-C as well that I gave to a skinner that I can't recall who it was :headscratch: It was that long ago.
Remember we figured out that black 25C was actually a squadron hack? It was painted that way after it finished it's combat missions.
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Remember we figured out that black 25C was actually a squadron hack? It was painted that way after it finished it's combat missions.
:D Not the same plane.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/B-25CIndia-cherenkamuflaj.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/B-25C-cherenkamuflaj.jpg)
I have a book some place with all the specifics of this plane.
It was an armed recon plane that got shot down while over one of the V weapon bases.
I actually I have a few more black B25's as well besides this one you are talking about,PTO,CBI.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/BLACKB-25.jpg)
As a matter of fact I have another bare metal RAAF B-25c even harder to find as far as combat aircraft is concerned than black B-25's. FTJR has done one already like it. If any one wants one of those to skin let me know.
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The bottom bird is the one we discussed earlier as that's a post combat paint job when it was a hack. The top one I've seen before as well. The only USAAF B25 in the ETO 7th Photo Recon. 13 night photo missions over V sites then shot down while taking off after delivering photos to 12th army group in August of 44.
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The bottom bird is the one we discussed earlier as that's a post combat paint job when it was a hack. The top one I've seen before as well. The only USAAF B25 in the ETO 7th Photo Recon. 13 night photo missions over V sites then shot down while taking off after delivering photos to 12th army group in August of 44.
There you go. :aok
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Mitchell%20B-25H/blackb-25.jpg)
50% right on the number of planes though. :D
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LOL, well my caption said the only USAAF B25 in the UK :) I blame Jeff Ethell!
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Also, I'm getting a little annoyed at the sudden need just to go looking for any skin just because it's painted black. What is the damned fascination with bland boring skins? Most folks just paint-bucket fill the thing black and call it a skin. They think it's easy to do a black skin. What about the white ones? Hrm? Or the all blue ones? Hrm? there are tons of other colors... Even PINK on some planes. Why the OCD fascination with black?
Here you go don't say I didn't try to get all the colours on one plane. :lol
This bare metal B-25c is even rarer than a black B-25c.
We now have one that served in the ETO very rare indeed :headscratch: More so than a black B-25C even if it is the same plane. :devil
LOL, well my caption said the only USAAF B25 in the UK :) I blame Jeff Ethell!
Few more views of this plane. In many colours.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/missnashville-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/MissNashvilleb25c1.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/untitled.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/missnashville5.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/untitled-6.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/missnashville1.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/missnashville4.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/missnashville6.png)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/missnashville3.png)
This is what the two white mission markers look like on the black plane except these are not painted completely solid white.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/MissNashville.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/misstenn.jpg)
Not exactly correct this picture.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/F-10-Miss.jpg)
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Nice Lyric :aok
Good Job,
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Not 100 percent positive, but I got this photo of e-bay not too long ago, and I think it's that same B25. Interesting to note the second B25 tail showing in the background.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/B25DHack.jpg)
edited to add it can't be. Serial is different and it's got anti glare panels on the engines while the one Lyric posted does now. Hmmmmm.
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Not 100 percent positive, but I got this photo of e-bay not too long ago, and I think it's that same B25. Interesting to note the second B25 tail showing in the background.
(http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s199/guppy35/B25DHack.jpg)
edited to add it can't be. Serial is different and it's got anti glare panels on the engines while the one Lyric posted does now. Hmmmmm.
Very strong resemblance only issue is the last couple of digits on the tail number. May be the other B-25c form that unit? The one on the left being Miss Nashville? Can't see any tail numbers on it though.
What would be the odds of another unit painting up the same model aircraft in the exact manner as a bare metal B-25C?
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An all gray MTO B24 Pathfinder skin would be nice too
http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-B-BIL-BIRD.htm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/3020-20Billie20K.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/greyb24a-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/greyb24-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/staples1-large.jpg)
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An all gray MTO B17 Pathfinder skin would be nice too
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/b-17-flying-fortress-dottie-call-sign-mickey-4.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/mickeyb171-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/3_39.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/mickeyb17-1.jpg)
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I'd also like to see a couple of the all black B24s that flew both in the PTO and ETO.
5TH Bomb group.
Bomber Barons early markings.
http://www.b24bestweb.com/939-v2.htm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/5thbg-1.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/blackb242-1-1.jpg)
Tar Baby.
Tad controversial in this day and age.
http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-T-TAR-TD.htm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/Scan_53.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/R4-T-3.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/Scan_56.jpg)
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Another Black PTO B-24.
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/TROUBLEMAKER-V2.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/Black%20B24%20Liberators/bb4.jpg)
http://www.b24bestweb.com/troublemaker-v2.htm
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(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/radarmik.jpg)
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/radarmik1-1.jpg)
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"Black Zombie"
http://www.b24bestweb.com/Pics-B-BLACK_Z-BLAR.htm
(http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/af142/barneybolac/3_19.jpg)