Help and Support Forums => Aces High Bug Reports => Topic started by: LCADolby on May 31, 2014, 06:20:15 PM
Title: 30mm is buggy
Post by: LCADolby on May 31, 2014, 06:20:15 PM
Hits doing no damage. Hits not even registering.
I have attached a film in which I know I scored a hit on the right wing late on in the film. I also had the bandit run through what I would say were 2 definate bullet hit paths.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Latrobe on May 31, 2014, 07:28:10 PM
How did none of those hit! He flew through your stream 6 or 7 times! I've seen buggy things with the 30mm before but nothing like this! :O :bolt:
I remember the damage bug with the 30mm where it hits and does no damage. I sent a film of it into Skuzzy but I have never heard back if they go the film or are looking into it. Never seen a hit detention bug quite on the level of this film though!
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: LCADolby on May 31, 2014, 07:33:33 PM
I've been saying it has been broken for ages. Watching it happen like that isn't a first or second time, it's been reasonably regular for me Vs fighters.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on June 20, 2014, 06:16:25 AM
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Tinkles on June 20, 2014, 09:41:54 AM
I have had these problems even offline too.. hitting the circle drones and while doing staged missions.
Will look in my library to see if I have any films of it happening while online, while I know for a fact I've experienced it while being online, I don't know if I was recording at the time. :D
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: hotcoffe on June 20, 2014, 10:00:48 AM
happens to me all the time... just because of this I dont use 30mm on my g14 any more...
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Copprhed on June 20, 2014, 03:25:29 PM
I guess the question of the day is...WHY ISN'T HITECH ADDRESSING THIS? It frustrates the heck out of me, too.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on June 20, 2014, 07:02:19 PM
I guess the question of the day is...WHY ISN'T HITECH ADDRESSING THIS? It frustrates the heck out of me, too.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: guncrasher on June 22, 2014, 01:21:00 AM
our squad went thru fso a couple of months ago and we went thru a bunch of Lancaster with 30mm like if they were tin cans. check the logs we ended up with top kills.
semp
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on June 22, 2014, 01:59:54 PM
Oh ok : then problem solved... :rolleyes:
There IS a bug oviously (tons of films that prove it), and obviously the bug doesnt show up for EVERY shell fired...
our squad went thru fso a couple of months ago and we went thru a bunch of Lancaster with 30mm like if they were tin cans. check the logs we ended up with top kills.
semp
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: TheCrazyOrange on June 22, 2014, 02:20:48 PM
Doesn't even seem to show up for everyone, yet alone every shell.
I haven't noticed a thing, although I admit I'm not a super heavy user of the 30mm. But then there's people that claim it's unusable.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: LCADolby on June 22, 2014, 08:33:56 PM
I slammed a B17 and did no damage to him despite 7-10 30mm hits along the same part of the wing.
My route changed recently so that could be it but still there has been no fix for the film I posted.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: guncrasher on June 24, 2014, 09:37:28 PM
There IS a bug oviously (tons of films that prove it), and obviously the bug doesnt show up for EVERY shell fired...
tons of film but not many sent to support. this "bug" and I dont doubt what you are saying, is been around since I joined several years ago. I dont doubt what you are saying however every time I have used the 30mm and hit it causes damage. and every time I get hit by it dang plane falls apart.
semp
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on June 27, 2014, 07:31:27 AM
HTC got many films from different players. I, for my part, sent em several.
Others sent em also several films. I got 10+ more films with bug inside to send HTC if they need more (atm they seem to have enough, which means the bug is confirmed and HTC support doesnt need more proofs :rock).
tons of film but not many sent to support. this "bug" and I dont doubt what you are saying, is been around since I joined several years ago. I dont doubt what you are saying however every time I have used the 30mm and hit it causes damage. and every time I get hit by it dang plane falls apart.
semp
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: guncrasher on June 27, 2014, 06:08:58 PM
HTC got many films from different players. I, for my part, sent em several.
Others sent em also several films. I got 10+ more films with bug inside to send HTC if they need more (atm they seem to have enough, which means the bug is confirmed and HTC support doesnt need more proofs :rock).
last I played a 30 took out right landing gear on my pony from 1k out. The saw on 200 about a clear hit with no damage. Go figure.
semp
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on June 27, 2014, 06:12:53 PM
HTC got many films from different players. I, for my part, sent em several.
Others sent em also several films. I got 10+ more films with bug inside to send HTC if they need more (atm they seem to have enough, which means the bug is confirmed and HTC support doesnt need more proofs :rock).
I got a statement from Skuzzy regarding the films, due to coading new engine debugger is not accessible.
Might take a while to get it done.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on August 18, 2014, 05:24:12 PM
Something to think about.
I recently flew a Yak-9T to de-ack a field. Turns out when I got there the field was de-acked. A box of B17 were tooling around low enough that I was able to get in behind them. End result, I lost a wing and the center B17 lost parts from five 37mm hits. But, just kept flying. I fire the NS-37 on a separate trigger so hit sprites from the 50cal don't confuse my sight picture.
How many MK108 30mm rounds or NS-37 37mm HE rounds does the damage counter need to accept a B17 can no longer fly?
For offline testing, this is where I wish we had a toggle to say the drones fall out of the air under the same damage modeling as online in the MA. Instead of flying along missing both wings in the drone circle.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lusche on August 18, 2014, 06:01:00 PM
For offline testing, this is where I wish we had a toggle to say the drones fall out of the air under the same damage modeling as online in the MA. Instead of flying along missing both wings in the drone circle.
You really need someone to tell you that two missing wings would end the flight for a B-17 in the MA?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on August 19, 2014, 05:36:29 PM
In the arena damage effects how a plane fly's or doesn't. Yes it's obvious a wing or two is a kill. Less obvious is all the other damage short of hitting the pilot. The drones are good for watching how to dismantle a bomber with 30mm.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on October 12, 2014, 08:04:34 PM
Wassup, HTC ?
:bhead
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lusche on October 13, 2014, 08:09:58 AM
I have attached a film in which I know I scored a hit on the right wing late on in the film. I also had the bandit run through what I would say were 2 definate bullet hit paths.
Looks to me like no hits happened on Dolby's FE. I experience the same thing all the time. Call it bad luck, bad interwebs, or whatever; but definitely not a bug. MOO and YMMV.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on November 27, 2014, 11:22:09 AM
<S>
I think i got a clue for this recurrent problem : Only bombers show the "bug", as Hitech couldnt reproduce it, i think it simply comes from the bombers "resist" at 30mm : some parts(maybe all) are by far "too" resistant at 30mm Mk108 gun (3-4 were needed to shoot one) and can handle 8-12 hits.
No "bug" reported on any fighter hits by the mk108.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Rob52240 on December 04, 2014, 12:40:34 AM
I cut an A20 in half with a K4 last night. Used about 5 rounds of 30mm doing it and I'm sure at least 3 of them missed.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: RotBaron on December 04, 2014, 01:11:43 AM
Are they HE rounds in the K-4? What does the yellow/orange circle sprite represent?
Pony D took one to the belly other nite, flew along without incident, came back killed me :furious
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: glzsqd on December 04, 2014, 01:25:47 AM
K4's mk108 30mm round is indeed high explosive. The Yellow/orange circle sprite *or as I like to call it "the Cheesey puff"* represents the rounds detonation.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on December 04, 2014, 03:37:39 AM
I think i got a clue for this recurrent problem : Only bombers show the "bug", as Hitech couldnt reproduce it, i think it simply comes from the bombers "resist" at 30mm : some parts(maybe all) are by far "too" resistant at 30mm Mk108 gun (3-4 were needed to shoot one) and can handle 8-12 hits.
No "bug" reported on any fighter hits by the mk108.
Tested in offline mode and it happen on several occasions that a round hit the wing och a buff with no apparent damage, for ex B-24 it seems to be an area outside the outer engine that can take a hit, guess its no fuel tank or anything else in that area so u dont get a fuel leak or loose parts when hitting that area. So i agree with u, its not realy a bug, its just that the bomber can take a hit and keep flying.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zerstorer on December 04, 2014, 08:42:58 AM
K4's mk108 30mm round is indeed high explosive. The Yellow/orange circle sprite *or as I like to call it "the Cheesey puff"* represents the rounds detonation.
Same with the 110G.
Just remember..."the Cheesey puff" can kill YOU if you are too close to your target. I've vaporized my 110 a few times...usually when taking a snap shot at someone in a flat sissors as they come across my nose.
It always makes me sad. :cry
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: glzsqd on December 04, 2014, 01:51:18 PM
Just remember..."the Cheesey puff" can kill YOU if you are too close to your target. I've vaporized my 110 a few times...usually when taking a snap shot at someone in a flat sissors as they come across my nose.
It always makes me sad. :cry
110g2 has the mk108 as well as the 262, 163, 152 and 109G14. The Me410 has the mk103 gun package.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zerstorer on December 04, 2014, 02:43:00 PM
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 17, 2015, 12:30:58 PM
Simply post it here.
I'm far from the best shot, but 30mm's still reliably kill for me.
No, an engine hit will not always result in a kill, if you hit the spinner, it might not always kill the engine itself. B-26's are tough, scattering 30mm over the aircraft won't do anything.
Flew the 262 for the first time in a while, downed two aircraft with quick bursts from the first bank of 30mm's only. One kill, one assist which is easily explained; a friendly had been bnz'ing him for a while. The first 30mm must have finished a critical component, after which no damage is counted towards the kill.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on April 18, 2015, 04:51:07 AM
7:59 : direct hit on left engine plane 1 (front) 7:59 : 2 direct hits on plane 2 (left of formation) 10:24: Direct hits again on Plane 1 10:24: 2 MORE direct hits on plane 2 (left) !
No smoke, no leak, etc... Only 20mms do render damage.
:angry:
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 18, 2015, 10:55:17 AM
Post film. A bomber is a big aircraft and has a lot of area to take hits, and the B-26 is noted for its durability. The engine is a little surprising, but not impossible depending on where you hit exactly.
As for the rest, I'd be surprised if 4 30mm's all over the airframe took down a bomber. You'd have to get lucky and kill the pilot.
The 30mm's aren't wonder weapons. They don't magic parts off the target. If you think they are, or act as though they are, you're an idiot.
Looking at the statistics at the time of posting, the 109K has killed 1544 enemies, or almost as many as all the other 109's combined. The 262 had killed 1017. The 163 has killed 268.
In 17 days, that's 2829 kills we can confidently attribute to the Mk 108. Or 166 kills per day, 7 per hour (including the almost empty US night time period, more likely around 17 per hour).
Hardly disappointing, and I would say sufficient proof that the 30mm remains an effective weapon.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on April 18, 2015, 11:02:50 AM
I never pretended the Mk108 was supposed to one-kill a B26 or any other bomber, the problem is that there is NO DAMAGE dealt on impact by the 30 mm canon!
Wherever a 30 mm hits a b-26 engine(for the 30mm hit on first plane), it would be IMPOSSIBLE that after such an highly explosive projectile impact, at less than 150m, no fuel leak, no oil leak, no engine mainframe parts flying away didnt occured... :furious
Post film. A bomber is a big aircraft and has a lot of area to take hits, and the B-26 is noted for its durability. The engine is a little surprising, but not impossible depending on where you hit exactly.
As for the rest, I'd be surprised if 4 30mm's all over the airframe took down a bomber. You'd have to get lucky and kill the pilot.
The 30mm's aren't wonder weapons. They don't magic parts off the target. If you think they are, or act as though they are, you're an idiot.
Looking at the statistics at the time of posting, the 109K has killed 1544 enemies, or almost as many as all the other 109's combined. The 262 had killed 1017. The 163 has killed 268.
In 17 days, that's 2829 kills we can confidently attribute to the Mk 108. Or 157 kills per day, 6.5 per hour (including the almost empty US night time period, more likely around 15 per hour).
Hardly disappointing, and I would say sufficient proof that the 30mm remains an effective weapon.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 18, 2015, 11:15:50 AM
Since we have an all or nothing damage mode, what you just said it's entirely possible. You're doing damage; to claim otherwise it's just idiotic. You're just not killing parts, which is another thing entirely.
A pilot's .45 will do damage, as evidenced by the fact that you can get assists. It will not, however, get you a kill.
As for the engine, I suspect that it hit on the outer edge or the wing behind the engine, but not the engine itself. If you would simply post the film, I guarantee we could readily explain what you're seeing.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skyyr on April 18, 2015, 02:27:11 PM
Since we have an all or nothing damage mode, what you just said it's entirely possible. You're doing damage; to claim otherwise it's just idiotic. You're just not killing parts, which is another thing entirely.
This is not correct. Tanks are modeled like this, aircraft are not. Each part has a certain threshold of damage it can absorb before it fails. This is why you can have someone hit an opponents left wing 3x with 20mm, and have no apparent damage. One further ping from a .303 burst would be enough to take it off and award the kill to the player that landed the 3x 20mm hits with no apparent damage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 18, 2015, 04:19:50 PM
This is not correct. Tanks are modeled like this, aircraft are not. Each part has a certain threshold of damage it can absorb before it fails. This is why you can have someone hit an opponents left wing 3x with 20mm, and have no apparent damage. One further ping from a .303 burst would be enough to take it off and award the kill to the player that landed the 3x 20mm hits with no apparent damage.
Reread what I posted, as this is exactly what I said.
Hes doing damage, he just hasn't destroyed any parts. Or rather, any visible parts. He may perhaps have destroyed guns, or gear or something.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: glzsqd on April 18, 2015, 05:00:24 PM
B26 was actually known to be quite fragile :old:
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on April 18, 2015, 05:30:19 PM
Have tested in offline mode and the bigger bombers can absorb a 30mm hit without falling apart and sometimes it looks like they do no damage. (nothing is falling of the bomber) But it looks more like u have to hit them with more than one 30mm to kill them. The "bug" is simply a hit that is not enough to make the bomber go down.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on April 18, 2015, 09:55:31 PM
I have plenty of kills of previously undamaged planes, jeeps, and acks with the .45
I think you understand the point I was making. And I will thank you to refrain from using a serious thread as an opportunity to toot your own horn. You do that enough elsewhere that it already wears thin.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on April 19, 2015, 02:37:20 AM
The bug is not that the Bomber isnt "going down", it is that the B26 engine was un-damaged (u really tyhink if it had been, no fuel/oil leak would have occured with a 30 mm direct hit?) Anyhow, i see where this is going, i just hope HTC have a look and confirm (or not) what i suspect. :old:
Have tested in offline mode and the bigger bombers can absorb a 30mm hit without falling apart and sometimes it looks like they do no damage. (nothing is falling of the bomber) But it looks more like u have to hit them with more than one 30mm to kill them. The "bug" is simply a hit that is not enough to make the bomber go down.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on April 19, 2015, 08:41:56 AM
Undamaged? Saw a fuel leak, a gear and an aileron fall of...
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 19, 2015, 10:57:55 AM
The bug is not that the Bomber isnt "going down", it is that the B26 engine was un-damaged (u really tyhink if it had been, no fuel/oil leak would have occured with a 30 mm direct hit?) Anyhow, i see where this is going, i just hope HTC have a look and confirm (or not) what i suspect. :old:
I believe that you weren't actually hitting the engine. You are aware that it doesn't extend all the way through the wing, right?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skyyr on April 19, 2015, 12:01:45 PM
I did, and it's not called an "all or nothing damage model." That is the system the tanks have in place. It's an accumulative damage model with a failure threshold.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 19, 2015, 12:06:13 PM
I did, and it's not called an "all or nothing damage model." That is the system the tanks have in place. It's an accumulative damage model with a failure threshold.
I mean that a part is either destroyed, or it is not. You can not shoot off half a flap, or tear off a chunk of wing. Things do not become less effective with damage taken, and do not appear damaged until they are destroyed.
All, or nothing.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on April 19, 2015, 07:34:00 PM
I think you understand the point I was making. And I will thank you to refrain from using a serious thread as an opportunity to toot your own horn. You do that enough elsewhere that it already wears thin.
Not at all..........anybody can get kills with the pistol yet you claim it is not possible.
Here is a film of six 30mm landed HO on a KI84 which then flies away.
FbKampfer smells like Dolby.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on April 19, 2015, 08:28:00 PM
If u see in film what others like me dont (at first 30mm hit on engine of plane 1, there is no aileron loss/leak/etc...) then plz give me ur dope provider name ! :D
The KI84 in that film did not fly away. It also does not show any problem with the 30mm round.
Could the issue be not with the 30mm but rather with some of the planes not registering 30mm hits/damage? I seem to recall a few years ago there was an issue like this with 30mm and other cannons not registering hits due to some planes not correctly registering cannon hits.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on April 21, 2015, 03:04:42 PM
Could the issue be not with the 30mm but rather with some of the planes not registering 30mm hits/damage? I seem to recall a few years ago there was an issue like this with 30mm and other cannons not registering hits due to some planes not correctly registering cannon hits.
There can always be a damage bug, in any model.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on April 22, 2015, 06:21:35 PM
Dropped packets might explain some of this.
Many guys landing 30mms are usually being hosed down by a buff gunner and they could possibly die before the damage shows on their end.
I've swept across 3 lancs with 30mms in 110g and flown away only to hear them blow up after I've turned around.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Latrobe on April 23, 2015, 10:09:36 PM
People still think there isn't a bug with the 30mm?? Explain this to me then. 30mm hit right into the cockpit of another 109K4 and he flies away completely undamaged. This is the one really good example I still had left in my film folder as it was starting to fill up with examples of the 30mm bug and I needed to clean it out.
And the film in case you think I'm lying. http://www.mediafire.com/download/1y9k5dgjf1p5m73/tater+fails+point+blank_0653.ahf
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 23, 2015, 11:45:35 PM
I see a cheese poof on the tail, not the cockpit. Possible you simply didn't straight out kill the pilot. Does the 30mm fire all HE rounds, or a mix like the 20mm's? Also, no guarantee that a round on the cockpit necessarily equals a kill of the pilot, regardless.
And if there is in fact a bug in the 30mm, it will be shown in a statistical analysis of kills of the K4. I've asked Snailman, and you're more than welcome to do it yourself.
I will say that it will lend more credibility to your assertion than speculation from films, since we can't analyze the code ourselves.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lusche on April 24, 2015, 04:13:18 AM
People still think there isn't a bug with the 30mm?? Explain this to me then. 30mm hit right into the cockpit of another 109K4 and he flies away completely undamaged. This is the one really good example I still had left in my film folder as it was starting to fill up with examples of the 30mm bug and I needed to clean it out.
And the film in case you think I'm lying. http://www.mediafire.com/download/1y9k5dgjf1p5m73/tater+fails+point+blank_0653.ahf
Are you sure you fired your secondary weapon, as your primary is the MG. Cannot open anything at mediafire for security reasons. It would not help anyway as we would need the original film so we have our tools to access exactly what was fired and what was hit.
Right now, the only complaint I see is you want the damage model to be more precise in what is graphically depicted. Without the original film, that is all that can be surmised.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 24, 2015, 10:28:45 AM
In his AH Stats Megathread, Lusche says your complaints don't correlate to anything significant.
I trust him not to lie about data. And I have always placed my faith in science, and statistics. As far as I'm concerned, you all have no idea what you're whining about until HTC says otherwise.
Kampfer out. <S>
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on April 24, 2015, 10:42:35 AM
Kampfer, please, instead of keeping polluting this thread with "no it's not bugged because i say it's not" posts after each person's thread about that B.U.G, why dont u just wait for HTC to investigate this B.U.G and let HTC tell us what is happening here ? A 30mm hit (like Latrobe one)on a K4 at this so close distance, wherever around cockpit, should have exploded the plane.
In his AH Stats Megathread, Lusche says your complaints don't correlate to anything significant.
I trust him not to lie about data. And I have always placed my faith in science, and statistics. As far as I'm concerned, you all have no idea what you're whining about until HTC says otherwise.
Kampfer out. <S>
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lusche on April 24, 2015, 11:15:33 AM
I trust him not to lie about data. And I have always placed my faith in science, and statistics
Stats can't cover everything. It would only reflect a sweeping, global problem. If the 30mm were to be just buggy under certain rare conditions, or for a few individual computers, it would drown in the noise of the data, so to speak. Combining my own experience as a heavy tater user and my stats I just can say with some authority (snicker) that there is no sweeping global problem, but that does not mean there's none at all. That's what films are for. ;)
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Copprhed on April 24, 2015, 11:48:48 AM
Stats can't cover everything. It would only reflect a sweeping, global problem. If the 30mm were to be just buggy under certain rare conditions, or for a few individual computers, it would drown in the noise of the data, so to speak. Combining my own experience as a heavy tater user and my stats I just can say with some authority (snicker) that there is no sweeping global problem, but that does not mean there's none at all. That's what films are for. ;)
Intelligence and humility...... :old:
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: glzsqd on April 24, 2015, 12:01:36 PM
Where you see the cheesy poof is not where the 30mm round actually hit.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Wiley on April 24, 2015, 03:34:34 PM
Where you see the cheesy poof is not where the 30mm round actually hit.
Your own gunnery is calculated on your FE. Film of your own gunnery is the only accurate point of view, isn't it?
Wiley.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on April 24, 2015, 03:58:26 PM
I think the cheesy puffs and other "animations" are in the "general" area of the hits/ The hits are registered much more accurately. Eye candy is just that, eye candy.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Copprhed on April 24, 2015, 04:37:54 PM
I think the cheesy puffs and other "animations" are in the "general" area of the hits/ The hits are registered much more accurately. Eye candy is just that, eye candy.
How dare you burst my illusion!
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Wiley on April 24, 2015, 04:56:08 PM
I think the cheesy puffs and other "animations" are in the "general" area of the hits/ The hits are registered much more accurately. Eye candy is just that, eye candy.
Not necessarily saying you're wrong, but that doesn't really sound right to me. Hit sprites on the ground it looks to me like they hit where the bullet hits as far as I can tell. Wouldn't the same apply to an aircraft?
I'd expect the cheesy poof to be more or less centered on the bullet impact.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on April 24, 2015, 06:11:04 PM
Stats can't cover everything. It would only reflect a sweeping, global problem. If the 30mm were to be just buggy under certain rare conditions, or for a few individual computers, it would drown in the noise of the data, so to speak. Combining my own experience as a heavy tater user and my stats I just can say with some authority (snicker) that there is no sweeping global problem, but that does not mean there's none at all. That's what films are for. ;)
I don't question that the MK 108 may be buggy under certain conditions. But, if it is not rare, as many assert (witness the cries of "tater is unusable! I can't fly the K4 any more!), then it *would* show up in a statistical analysis.
I also make very heavy use of the K4, and also have not witnessed any problems that cannot be explained. Because of this, I will continue to operate on the assumption that my 30mm's will cause catastrophic damage to aircraft when properly placed. That I took out my first B-29 in the game yesterday with a quick burst from the 30mm, and finished the other two off in short order, did nothing to diminish my confidence in the weapon.
And if my (admittedly limited) knowledge of how the game works, wouldn't the "bugs" be resultant from either corrupted code, anomalous interactions
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Latrobe on April 24, 2015, 07:04:33 PM
Are you sure you fired your secondary weapon, as your primary is the MG. Cannot open anything at mediafire for security reasons. It would not help anyway as we would need the original film so we have our tools to access exactly what was fired and what was hit.
Right now, the only complaint I see is you want the damage model to be more precise in what is graphically depicted. Without the original film, that is all that can be surmised.
Here you go, full film linked below. I had forgotten you could actually link films in this forum. :o
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on April 24, 2015, 08:28:14 PM
Not necessarily saying you're wrong, but that doesn't really sound right to me. Hit sprites on the ground it looks to me like they hit where the bullet hits as far as I can tell. Wouldn't the same apply to an aircraft?
I'd expect the cheesy poof to be more or less centered on the bullet impact.
Wiley.
I seem to remember someone from HTC saying that, but I don't remember who or in what context, however Skuzzy said this...
Are you sure you fired your secondary weapon, as your primary is the MG. Cannot open anything at mediafire for security reasons. It would not help anyway as we would need the original film so we have our tools to access exactly what was fired and what was hit.
Right now, the only complaint I see is you want the damage model to be more precise in what is graphically depicted. Without the original film, that is all that can be surmised.
To me that seems to mean that it is not precise as it is, IF there is more room to make it MORE precise. I'm not trying to put words into Skuzzy post here, but the only reason I did post what I said was because Skuzzy posted that. Like I said it was some time ago that I read it and Im not sure who posted it, nor the context. Once someone pointed out to me how all I hit was their wing and showed me a screen shot of all the holes in his wing. The bullet holes are just an overlay layer with the damage graphics on it. Either that or everytime some clown blows a hole in my canopy they all seem to hit the same spot!
Take it as you will.
It's possible that there is some glitch with the 30mm, after all it's millions of lines of coad, even Hitech can hit a key or two wrong once in a while. But, I don't really think there is an issue. Some people get all pumped up and figure that a single cheesy puff should be enough and that their aim could never be off. :rolleyes: I miss just as well with the 30 as I do with 50's or 20's, it's all the same to me.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Wiley on April 24, 2015, 09:38:37 PM
To me that seems to mean that it is not precise as it is, IF there is more room to make it MORE precise. I'm not trying to put words into Skuzzy post here, but the only reason I did post what I said was because Skuzzy posted that. Like I said it was some time ago that I read it and Im not sure who posted it, nor the context. Once someone pointed out to me how all I hit was their wing and showed me a screen shot of all the holes in his wing. The bullet holes are just an overlay layer with the damage graphics on it. Either that or everytime some clown blows a hole in my canopy they all seem to hit the same spot!
Take it as you will.
Exactly, but that's the effects of your gunnery on his FE, not your gunnery on your target. The damage shown on a plane is indeed just a skin that only means that area has been pinged. You won't see bullet holes after the fact where you hit, you'll just see the damage skin with the bullet holes in the same spots every time. But as far as I can tell, where you see your bullets strike at the time or on film is where the games count your bullets striking. Now with something the size of a cheesy poof, perhaps it's more difficult to see precisely where it hits, I don't know. I very rarely go over my films in that fine of detail.
Quote
It's possible that there is some glitch with the 30mm, after all it's millions of lines of coad, even Hitech can hit a key or two wrong once in a while. But, I don't really think there is an issue. Some people get all pumped up and figure that a single cheesy puff should be enough and that their aim could never be off. :rolleyes: I miss just as well with the 30 as I do with 50's or 20's, it's all the same to me.
I haven't noticed anything too far out of line with it. I think when they split the Hstabs a few years ago it really put a dent in what a 30mm will do to the tail of a plane, as previous to that it would take the whole hstab off, plane is uncontrollable, plane died. With the split Hstab, most of the time only one side will die from a single tater, and that results in a lot of planes that are still airworthy that weren't before that change.
*shrug* Maybe after FSO I'll take a peek at Dolby's film to try to see what he's talking about.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on April 24, 2015, 10:45:06 PM
Six hits on the nose of a KI84 and the engine kept running.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Wiley on April 24, 2015, 11:06:00 PM
Watched the film. Looked to me like a singleton 30mm hit the right wingroot on the first pass you got, then on the MGs and cannon pass around the 7 min mark, bunch of .50s, and single tater near the tail...
Looks like maybe the tail hit hit the fuselage, not the stabs. Surprised nothing fell off on either of those passes though.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on April 25, 2015, 08:54:22 AM
Exactly, but that's the effects of your gunnery on his FE, not your gunnery on your target. The damage shown on a plane is indeed just a skin that only means that area has been pinged. You won't see bullet holes after the fact where you hit, you'll just see the damage skin with the bullet holes in the same spots every time. But as far as I can tell, where you see your bullets strike at the time or on film is where the games count your bullets striking. Now with something the size of a cheesy poof, perhaps it's more difficult to see precisely where it hits, I don't know. I very rarely go over my films in that fine of detail.
I haven't noticed anything too far out of line with it. I think when they split the Hstabs a few years ago it really put a dent in what a 30mm will do to the tail of a plane, as previous to that it would take the whole hstab off, plane is uncontrollable, plane died. With the split Hstab, most of the time only one side will die from a single tater, and that results in a lot of planes that are still airworthy that weren't before that change.
*shrug* Maybe after FSO I'll take a peek at Dolby's film to try to see what he's talking about.
Wiley.
NO, we are only talking of a graphic overlay here. The graphic, like all others is just another layer that is thrown up on YOUR screen to give you a visual indication of a hit. With the hit sprites I think they try to get them a bit closer, but I don't think they are accurate and can be used as "See, I hit you right there!". The only way to know for sure "where" the hit was registered is for HTC to their tools to check the original film.
Six hits on the nose of a KI84 and the engine kept running.
It only LOOKS like you hit there. Only HTC can tell for sure.
Remember the graphics of what hits there are is nothing more than eye candy. Whats important is the data that is in the packet that is sent to the other guys computer letting it know where you scored hit and what parts should fall off.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on April 25, 2015, 10:21:01 AM
Not talking about the film but rather what I saw live at the time.
If what we see and what really happens is as far off as you mention, then nobody would be flying this sim.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on April 25, 2015, 10:33:16 AM
NO, we are only talking of a graphic overlay here. The graphic, like all others is just another layer that is thrown up on YOUR screen to give you a visual indication of a hit. With the hit sprites I think they try to get them a bit closer, but I don't think they are accurate and can be used as "See, I hit you right there!".
You're right on it showing 'damage' graphics, the bullet holes on the skin afterwards, but I think you're wrong about hit sprites.
Strafe a ground target. Watch the hit sprites. You can follow a tracer from muzzle to dirt. It's an effect the game throws up on impact. Fire one tracer at a tank from the ground. You can follow it from muzzle to impact.
Put another way- Why on earth would the code know exactly where the bullet hit on your FE, have the exact location available to it to display the hit sprite, but do more calculation work to randomize it?
What you can't see is what effect the bullet had, explosion damage on the vehicle and how much damage was actually counted, and that's why they'd be interested in the film.
Quote
The only way to know for sure "where" the hit was registered is for HTC to their tools to check the original film.
It only LOOKS like you hit there. Only HTC can tell for sure.
I don't think that's right on film of your own gunnery taken from your computer. Anybody else's gunnery on your FE is a complete approximation for sure.
Quote
Remember the graphics of what hits there are is nothing more than eye candy. Whats important is the data that is in the packet that is sent to the other guys computer letting it know where you scored hit and what parts should fall off.
Which was calculated on your FE, and displayed.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on April 26, 2015, 07:43:15 AM
11:11 : 3x30 mm hits on Bomber 1 13:09: 4x30 mm hits on same bomber !
7xdirect 30mm hits on same Lancaster...LoL :headscratch:
Come on... He's still flying...!(not to mention the 20mm impacts who (again) seems to be the only thing doing dmg(again) in this film...)
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Drane on May 26, 2015, 05:04:21 AM
KI-67 takes a bunch of 30mm/20mm hits from my plane and keeps flying. Counted 7 cheese puffs in film.
When the left engine was struck with a 30mm the right engine began smoking.
4 30mm to the tail with no apparent damage 2 30mm to left aileron 1 30mm to left engine
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on May 26, 2015, 09:05:35 AM
It seems some parts of bombers (no bug sighted so far when attacking fighters with Mk108 in G-14) are immune...
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on May 26, 2015, 09:14:06 AM
First of all I'm not sure all these hits really are 30mm hits. Damage to my Ki was: Aileron, flap, tail gun, engine, fuel leak so i took some damage (I however do believe that most was 20mm hits)
I think the "bug" consist of 2 things: First is the damage model, enough damage to a part and it fails and on bombers one 30mm might not be enough to destroy that part (seems like no damage) Second is that a hit on a control surface or flap can detach that part but the wing itself is intact so by hitting a lot of "small" parts a plane can absorb more damage than if the hits has been to the wing.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Latrobe on May 26, 2015, 01:55:42 PM
If that's how the damage modeling works in this game then maybe a little tweak with it is needed. How about any overkill damage is dealt to connected parts? So if you hit a flap with a 30mm then the flap comes off and all the overkill damage that was not needed to break the flap is then dealt to the inner wing. Or if you hit the horizontal stabilizer then it comes off as does the elevator and all overkill damage is dealt towards the tail section and other tail stabilizers.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on May 26, 2015, 02:50:22 PM
Based on my observations it seems like its how it works but i cannot say im sure about the damage model. But even if damage are transfered to all parts within the blast radius a hit on a small part that detach will still be less lethal than a direct hit in the wing.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on May 27, 2015, 12:13:46 PM
A reply from Hitech on this damage model would be really nice... :cheesy:
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: USCH on May 27, 2015, 08:24:30 PM
It seems some parts of bombers (no bug sighted so far when attacking fighters with Mk108 in G-14) are immune...
From my observations the only part of bombers that appear immune to damage are the bomb bay doors. Have never seen them fall off from damage either, even repeated 30mm hits.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on June 04, 2015, 10:31:01 AM
I deeply hope HTC reads (at least one time per year) this forum, otherwise im not sure ur (usefull) comments will change... anything... :old:
From my observations the only part of bombers that appear immune to damage are the bomb bay doors. Have never seen them fall off from damage either, even repeated 30mm hits.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Ack-Ack on June 04, 2015, 12:11:52 PM
I deeply hope HTC reads (at least one time per year) this forum, otherwise im not sure ur (usefull) comments will change... anything... :old:
I'm sure they do read this but I wouldn't expect a fix (if one is needed) will be forthcoming because of the new update that is nearing open beta.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Drane on June 12, 2015, 05:47:54 PM
ME163 vs LANCs
10 hits on the drone and 5 on the lead bomber. Ran low on fuel and had to give up. Both lancs landed.
Maybe this will help determine if there's a problem. Film and screenshots attached.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2d7c93a.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/sauyir.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/fmrknt.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/23vai6e.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/kb37si.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/1zgtatd.jpg)
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Drane on June 12, 2015, 11:59:47 PM
Oops forgot a picture that shows 1 more hit on drone tail area.
11 hits total on drone that I could see in the film.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/282g8w4.jpg)
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on June 13, 2015, 04:28:16 PM
Exactly like the 30mm bug : some parts of Lancaster (as other bombers) seem to be imune to fire... :headscratch:
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FLOOB on June 14, 2015, 04:01:43 AM
Offline drones aren't a good way to test gun leathality for a couple reason. Also german 30mm had a delayed fuse. Could it be possible that shells are going through and through?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Drane on June 14, 2015, 05:15:40 AM
Offline drones aren't a good way to test gun leathality for a couple reason. Also german 30mm had a delayed fuse. Could it be possible that shells are going through and through?
The ME163 vs LANC example was from online in the late war arena on 6/12/2015 at around 1545 hours central standard time.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FLOOB on June 14, 2015, 05:29:24 AM
Dont forget the drone vs lead bug.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on June 14, 2015, 07:27:35 AM
10 hits on the drone and 5 on the lead bomber. Ran low on fuel and had to give up. Both lancs landed.
Maybe this will help determine if there's a problem. Film and screenshots attached.
It looks like the old bug with certain plane shapes is back. A few years ago this same issue popped up and the problem wasn't the cannons but rather some planes in certain areas were invulnerable to cannon hits. It was fixed at the time but it looks like it came back.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on June 16, 2015, 01:58:23 PM
You are right, Ack : thats exactly what seems to happen, Ty for this info about that old bug, i hope HTC fixes it for AH3...👌
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Latrobe on June 25, 2015, 02:54:04 PM
Just posting some more film of the bug. It seems the F4U1A's right wing is immune to 30mm's as well. Two direct hits to the outer and inner right wing and no damage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on June 29, 2015, 03:27:17 PM
Did an offline experiment with the K4 and drones. I included an F4U-1A.
I pulled up behind the F4U and single shot with the 30mm into the right wing aiming mid aileron. So the very first time I hit that area, only the outside panel of the wing falls off. I dispatched the broken F4U to get a fresh one in the circle. Every subsequent single shot to the outer wing panel took the whole wing off at the root each time I attacked the new re-spawned F4U.
Tested this against the other fighters in the drone circle, same phenomenon. If I exited the game and restarted it, the phenomenon repeated itself. Once I shot the wing making the outside panel drop off, then killed the drone. Every fighter would loose the whole wing to a single 30mm hit. In some cases if I hit the fuselage during the first shoot event, the fighter would not one shot die and be very damage resistant. I could get up to 2 hits knocking off pieces and only starting a fire.
If anything is going to be looked at, I suspect it will be in AH3 after it becomes stable for the largest number of PC. Hitech is the only person coding AH3 at HTC. This is not a bug in the sense you pull the trigger and your game crashes.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on June 29, 2015, 07:16:51 PM
Nice research, bustr.
Your distinctiveness will be added to the collective.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: ISux on July 05, 2015, 02:21:52 PM
i know i put at least five 30mm from my Ta-152 hits down the center of a B17 the other day and nothing happened at least two of the hit sprites were in the wing root area. ended up finishing it with the 20mm.
i've never had a fighter not go down after 1 30mm hit except for the p38 i hit the engine and heard the engine shut off so that makes sense. most of the time i hit the inboard wing side, the tail section or the cockpit. and they always go down.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 06, 2015, 10:30:43 PM
Yes,thats exactly how the bug happens: some bomber parts are"imune" to 30mm hits...
i know i put at least five 30mm from my Ta-152 hits down the center of a B17 the other day and nothing happened at least two of the hit sprites were in the wing root area. ended up finishing it with the 20mm.
i've never had a fighter not go down after 1 30mm hit except for the p38 i hit the engine and heard the engine shut off so that makes sense. most of the time i hit the inboard wing side, the tail section or the cockpit. and they always go down.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Bruv119 on July 07, 2015, 01:38:57 AM
Just posting some more film of the bug. It seems the F4U1A's right wing is immune to 30mm's as well. Two direct hits to the outer and inner right wing and no damage.
shot them in the head next time and not the wing. problem solved. :D
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on July 08, 2015, 11:07:12 AM
Yes,thats exactly how the bug happens: some bomber parts are"imune" to 30mm hits...
This is inaccurate. If the round does not hit anything critical in the plane, then little damage is done. It does not matter which round it is.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 08, 2015, 09:11:02 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on July 09, 2015, 06:33:28 AM
Just because you do not *see* any damage done, does not mean there was not any done.
The complaints seem to be more about the lack of graphical damage than anything else. Our hit detection accuracy far outpaces our graphical representation of damage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: sunfan1121 on July 09, 2015, 11:13:54 PM
Just because you do not *see* any damage done, does not mean there was not any done.
The complaints seem to be more about the lack of graphical damage than anything else. Our hit detection accuracy far outpaces our graphical representation of damage.
Did an offline experiment with the K4 and drones. I included an F4U-1A.
I pulled up behind the F4U and single shot with the 30mm into the right wing aiming mid aileron. So the very first time I hit that area, only the outside panel of the wing falls off. I dispatched the broken F4U to get a fresh one in the circle. Every subsequent single shot to the outer wing panel took the whole wing off at the root each time I attacked the new re-spawned F4U.
Tested this against the other fighters in the drone circle, same phenomenon. If I exited the game and restarted it, the phenomenon repeated itself. Once I shot the wing making the outside panel drop off, then killed the drone. Every fighter would loose the whole wing to a single 30mm hit. In some cases if I hit the fuselage during the first shoot event, the fighter would not one shot die and be very damage resistant. I could get up to 2 hits knocking off pieces and only starting a fire.
If anything is going to be looked at, I suspect it will be in AH3 after it becomes stable for the largest number of PC. Hitech is the only person coding AH3 at HTC. This is not a bug in the sense you pull the trigger and your game crashes.
This seems to be the complaint.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 10, 2015, 01:20:20 PM
So u pretend the 30mm damages plane even when obviously they r not damaged ( i mean a wing is off or on, except if u now reveal us a wing can be off but still graphicaly represented ON ingame ... due to a bug : so the damaged plane is then continuing to fly... with a ghost wing... cool, i didnt know that feature, ty !)... and my point in post u erased was that, whatever engine part a 30mm cannon shell hits at 50m, only the blast would damage the engine so hard it couldnt continue working (check mk108 ammo explosive blast radius characteristics maybe).. So the 30mm hit i showed u in film wasnt -at -all- dealing any damage. Maybe u could check the tons of films posted in this thread(along with other created threads about 30mm bug for +1y now... :aok
Just because you do not *see* any damage done, does not mean there was not any done.
The complaints seem to be more about the lack of graphical damage than anything else. Our hit detection accuracy far outpaces our graphical representation of damage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 10, 2015, 01:26:24 PM
No it's not, according to tons of films posted. :salute
Dont bother answering such posts, Latrobe, lol :I think some ppl are crossing the troll frontier : now, everything, even a ghost wing, is prefered to an (f*cking obvious after 25 films...) bug on the mk108... It's becoming funny to read with posts like FBKampfer last one...Kinda Like Jerry Lee Lewis explaining how gravity works... :rofl
The other side of the coin is there ISN'T an issue, proven by 25 f'in films.
The biggest problem here is some people confuse the REAL world with a GAME. I suppose there is a problem with the 50s as well because when I fire them from my P47 and rake the side of a buff I only see a few hit sprites. With the volume of fire hitting the side of such a large plane I should see fireworks!
If a 30 blows a hole in the wing and it doesn't hit anything critical there is no GRAPHIC for that, thats all. Its a game and you just didn't hit him hard enough to knock him down. This is an issue I live with everyday. Maybe you "super shots" expect a kill each time you hit someone, but even the best can be off a little sometimes.
Its a game! Try harder/aim better next time if the "kill" is so important to you.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: icepac on July 12, 2015, 09:02:20 AM
I still have trouble when I land six 30mms on the nose of a ki84 in HO from D300 up to D-inches and the ki84 continues to fly.
Can't claim it was some other caliber hitting because my plane only carried 30mms.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Someguy63 on July 12, 2015, 01:57:08 PM
Must be some type of explanation as to why some have these problems and others don't?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 12, 2015, 04:22:51 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on July 12, 2015, 09:57:43 PM
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on July 13, 2015, 03:22:32 PM
I have found Ki84 at times to be immune to bullets no matter how freaking dazzling the light show is from my rounds hitting it. Then Yak3 absorb so much lead they should fall out of the sky.
Welcome to AH2, lets see what happens in AH3.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: 49Dallas on July 13, 2015, 03:51:12 PM
I hit a set of lancs in my dora.. took the wing and entire tail off and it was still flying... a few squaddies and I took film of it and it was still flying... set the film to hitech and he said its how the game works.... OKAY WHATEVER haha
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 16, 2015, 04:33:31 PM
Another film with the Mk108 bug (another proof...) :rock
Fun begins at 5:41 ! :aok
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on July 16, 2015, 06:06:52 PM
Another film with the Mk108 bug (another proof...) :rock
Fun begins at 5:41 ! :aok
Proof that your good at hitting the main body of the plane. When you finally hit the wing with a 30 it came off.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Interceptor on July 16, 2015, 06:48:04 PM
i got 35 more films for you, i guess you think a lancaster engine needs 10+ 30mm hits to get an oil leak and a b17 wing shouldnt come off under 25x 30mm hits. :rofl The Bug is almost in all films posted in this thread... Keep saying "no there is not" after every film posted, i guess u got plenty of time to waste, good for you. :cheers:
Historically, 3-6(big max)mk108 hits (sprayed on plane whole structure, considering the destruction power of the ammo) were needed to get a b-17 down btw, not 30-60. :aok
Proof that your good at hitting the main body of the plane. When you finally hit the wing with a 30 it came off.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on July 16, 2015, 09:31:47 PM
Just telling you what I saw, a lot of hits along the body blowing big old holes in the side of the plane damaging nothing (seeing as this isn't a real plane, but a game and the program on recognizes hit damage where it is programed to do so). When you finally did hit the wing it came off just like it should have. Learn to aim and hit the important parts and you'll be ok.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Wiley on July 17, 2015, 01:41:25 AM
i got 35 more films for you, i guess you think a lancaster engine needs 10+ 30mm hits to get an oil leak and a b17 wing shouldnt come off under 25x 30mm hits. :rofl The Bug is almost in all films posted in this thread... Keep saying "no there is not" after every film posted, i guess u got plenty of time to waste, good for you. :cheers:
Historically, 3-6(big max)mk108 hits (sprayed on plane whole structure, considering the destruction power of the ammo) were needed to get a b-17 down btw, not 30-60. :aok
No need for hyperbole, let's look at exactly what you hit there.
First pass: 1 30mm on the bomb bay door. 1 30mm on the engine cowling. 1 30mm on the fuselage near the tail on the first pass. All damage on the left side. High speed.
Second pass: Solid rake down the right side of the fuselage. 3(?) 30mms. Fuel leak on right wing. Medium speed.
Third pass: 1 hit on the right bomb bay door, 1 hit just in front of the tail. Fuselage splits. Multiple solid hits on the right wing, right wing destroyed. Relatively slow.
Now, as you may or may not be aware, different parts on the airplane have their own HP. They all count their damage individually. Explosions are a bit nebulous, but whatever damage is done to a part is done to that part and is unaffected by damage to the surrounding area. The parts are all either working, or not working when they receive enough damage, there's no in between.
So looking at that video, what you basically had was singleton hits to various parts, and the damage that did the plane in was to the rear fuselage, with 4 hits to that part, possibly 5. It's unclear what bomb bay doors count as, but I'd expect them to be part of the front fuselage where the wings attach.
Now, we can grumble about the all or nothing DM if we like, but 5 hits to the large metal tube part of the plane did bring it down, while a bunch of singletons to the wings and engine cowlings didn't. Also, the majority of your hits were at a slower closing speed, which would result in less damage.
What I get the sense is, you guys basically feel anything smaller than a bomber fuselage that gets hit by a single tater under all conditions should be gone, period. Not entirely sure I agree with it from either a gameplay perspective or historical one.
Within the constraints of how the DM works now though, I just don't see anything there that's out of line with the way things currently work. How they should be? Completely different argument, but my point is it doesn't look like a bug.
Wiley.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FLOOB on July 22, 2015, 12:38:09 PM
A 30mm penetrated a ball turret, ripped the flight jacket off of the gunner, exited the ball turret, entered the fuselage and detonated killing a waist gunner.
The 30mm had a delayed impact fuse, something like 10cm but at what range I don't know. I'm noticing on a lot of these screen shots that the trajectory of the 30mm is transecting thin parts of the planes at high angles at close range. Is this a case of players underestimating the comprehensiveness of Pyro's modeling of munitions as we have done in the past?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on July 22, 2015, 03:43:27 PM
Most MK108 aircraft ammunition and some 20mm, had a delayed detonation secondary igniter. MK108 ammunition had a C70 secondary igniter mounted just under the primary fuse. The delay was caused by the primary ignition channeling ignition flame through channels before reaching the C70 igniter. The hope was that the round would pass through the aluminum skin before detonation inside. Many bomber crewmen died this way from 20mm and 30mm ammunition.
Most MK108 types had a 1100m spin controlled self detonation fuse as the primary igniter. Remember, the round still needs kinetic energy to penetrate the aluminum skin. By 400m the round has dropped from 500m\sec to 400m\sec with the velocity rapidly decreasing past 400m. So consider the round's impact\penetration depending on the angle or slope of the surface. 600m-1000m may not penetrate but, still detonate without full contact to the aircraft skin. A delay detonator means if the round does not penetrate but, the primary fuse triggers, the round will bounce off or look like it contact detonated.
This would be part of the reason for a 1100m spin activated self destruct incorporated into the primary fuse. I do not know if these factors are modeled.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FLOOB on July 22, 2015, 03:49:59 PM
The self destruct fuses were hardly ever used, even over germany. The basic impact fuze had a delay.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on July 22, 2015, 06:28:44 PM
No primary fuse used in MK103 rounds had a delay. They were all contact striker fuses with one type striking the secondary detonator after about 1100m to self destruct after the spin slows down. And the other type a simple contact striker fuse. Both primary fuse relied on spin to unlock and arm them while one relied on the slower spin after 1000m or 7.5sec for the striker to set off the secondary detonator.
It could be an intardnet urban legend, the self destruct primary were used by a 190 unit sometimes to sit back out of rear gunnery range and lob the round for the detonation effect of the self destruct. Unless all the ones produced were packed away in vault for late 20th century collectors to cut apart for internet pictures, they were used. Why produce any to begin with, even if the demands of the late 44 war eventually dictated the simpler contact striker with no self destruct mechanism for aircraft munitions.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: hitech on August 03, 2015, 12:42:44 PM
Another film with the Mk108 bug (another proof...) :rock
Fun begins at 5:41 ! :aok
Here are the tools we use to track down bugs on claims like yours. Left is time stamp next is player who was shot the
[0]
is the plane index 0 for lead, 1 for first drone ...
Lethality is the lethality of the round if you it something at the end of the gun. The actually lethality applied will diminish with distance and speeds.
Hardness has to do with armor penetration. BaseStrength is the strength of the undamaged component you hit. Followed by it's numbers and name. WN is simply the short name of the weapon, And finally the point of impact, we use this to track down miss labeled components.
The host totals up damage done to each component. Once the damage done is greater then BaseStrength, the component is destroyed and you see the part come off.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Latrobe on August 03, 2015, 01:34:17 PM
I'd like to see the results from my 2 tater hits on the F4U's wing if that's not too much trouble. I still find it hard to believe that an F4U (or any fighter) can absorb the damage from 2 30mm hits. Bombers... maybe with all the components they have. A fighter? I just don't see it happening.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: hitech on August 03, 2015, 03:30:08 PM
I'd like to see the results from my 2 tater hits on the F4U's wing if that's not too much trouble. I still find it hard to believe that an F4U (or any fighter) can absorb the damage from 2 30mm hits. Bombers... maybe with all the components they have. A fighter? I just don't see it happening.
Here is your output, but you did help uncover a bug.
I thought I had fixed this long ago, I know it showed up in a different form previously in the film viewer. But the film view was showing double hits before. The 2 hits just at the end of your film, were not hits in the original fight. But were phantom effects of the film view.
Basically it was detecting a NEW collision in the film view, but there were not hits on the original flight.
Do you remember specifically seeing hits in the real pass when you were playing?
Here is your output, but you did help uncover a bug.
I thought I had fixed this long ago, I know it showed up in a different form previously in the film viewer. But the film view was showing double hits before. The 2 hits just at the end of your film, were not hits in the original fight. But were phantom effects of the film view.
Basically it was detecting a NEW collision in the film view, but there were not hits on the original flight.
Do you remember specifically seeing hits in the real pass when you were playing?
Thanks for the reply! I honestly don't remember if I saw a 30mm hit during the fight. I just know that it felt odd that he flew right through my bullet stream and didn't die from a 30mm hit. When I looked at the film in the film viewer I saw 30mm hits on both passes which made me believe I did score hits and they did no damage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on August 21, 2015, 07:35:52 PM
See Rule #4
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on August 21, 2015, 07:43:51 PM
you hit the fuselage. they can take a ton of damage there
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on August 22, 2015, 05:51:50 AM
I just sent 26 x 30mm on Havermyr's Lancaster "fuselage"(2min ago) : not even a smoke trail, at less than 20m. Plz, we r beyond this, fugitive.
I just sent 26 x 30mm on Havermyr's Lancaster "fuselage"(2min ago) : not even a smoke trail, at less than 20m. Plz, we r beyond this, fugitive.
Then why cant you understand that hitting the fuselage, while eventually will take down a bomber, will not give you the "instant kill" that you seem to believe you deserve with a hit or two with a 30mm?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on August 27, 2015, 11:58:05 AM
Wasnt '1-2' hits in film i sent , was 4 : its not about dumb "insta-kill", its about 4 hits +
Anyway , just take a G14/152/K4 and do some attempts, so maybe u ll get whats happening instead of drinking coffee and keeping saying "nah" in this forum. :rofl
Then why cant you understand that hitting the fuselage, while eventually will take down a bomber, will not give you the "instant kill" that you seem to believe you deserve with a hit or two with a 30mm?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on August 27, 2015, 12:13:11 PM
1x30 mm is equal to 2.86 20mm grenades... Try hit the fuselage of a lanc w 12 20mm rounds (½ second burst for a spit) and see if it goes down....
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: The Fugitive on August 27, 2015, 12:17:08 PM
Wasnt '1-2' hits in film i sent , was 4 : its not about dumb "insta-kill", its about 4 hits +
Anyway , just take a G14/152/K4 and do some attempts, so maybe u ll get whats happening instead of drinking coffee and keeping saying "nah" in this forum. :rofl
I have, and when I hit they go down. Of course I aim for wings, not hit sucking fuselage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: FBKampfer on August 28, 2015, 12:09:24 PM
I just aim for the entire plane. My aim is garbage.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: bustr on August 28, 2015, 04:42:59 PM
Why don't you guys see if Hitech will implement hit counter logging in AH3 for every time you pull your trigger during a sortie? It should be a check mark able option like auto film sortie. AH2 is a lost cause for new things or bug fixes as it's in it's twilight. Then you can scream at each other with pasted log lines to throw around or harass Hitech with them.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Lucifer on January 03, 2016, 09:19:23 AM
3y anniversary for 30mm bug : i re-subbed in hope u did something...
Obviously creating new trees is more vital for gameplay... :rock
-Unsubbing- (again), c u in 6 month to check if u did something-
PS: im not the only one doing that(u never wonder how pb went 600 to 200 during prime times?), u maybe should begin listening to customers problem ? :aok
:salute .
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: JimmyD3 on January 03, 2016, 03:51:59 PM
3y anniversary for 30mm bug : i re-subbed in hope u did something...
Obviously creating new trees is more vital for gameplay... :rock
-Unsubbing- (again), c u in 6 month to check if u did something-
PS: im not the only one doing that(u never wonder how pb went 600 to 200 during prime times?), u maybe should begin listening to customers problem ? :aok
:salute .
Another Lurker I assume?
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on January 05, 2016, 10:27:42 AM
We cannot fix something which is not broken.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: guncrasher on January 07, 2016, 02:24:51 AM
skuzzy can you look into why I must be the only 1 in the game that get's kill by a 30mm every time I get hit?
semp
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 11:10:24 AM
skuzzy can you look into why I must be the only 1 in the game that get's kill by a 30mm every time I get hit?
semp
Yesterday I hit m3s with 30mm k4 taters and they did nothing. I hit B17 V stabs and it did nothing. I hit multiple Lancaster wings and it did nothing. I hit a 38 and he went poof. I hit a lanc wing and it took off half, I had to finish him off because he was still flying. I don't think 30mm does enough damage, And some hits don't register. Hits not registering probably happens with everything but it's much more noticeable when you only have 65 rounds, And each one matters. I really don't notice 30mm not hitting fighters, It's mostly bombers.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on January 07, 2016, 11:37:22 AM
Yesterday I hit m3s with 30mm k4 taters and they did nothing. I hit B17 V stabs and it did nothing. I hit multiple Lancaster wings and it did nothing. I hit a 38 and he went poof. I hit a lanc wing and it took off half, I had to finish him off because he was still flying. I don't think 30mm does enough damage, And some hits don't register. Hits not registering probably happens with everything but it's much more noticeable when you only have 65 rounds, And each one matters. I really don't notice 30mm not hitting fighters, It's mostly bombers.
It's hitting. It's just not doing enough damage to register visually. No one has yet to submit a film showing a problem with the 30mm. We are still waiting for one.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zimme83 on January 07, 2016, 12:06:56 PM
One thing ive noticed is that sometimes the 30mm round hit a less vital part like a landing gear and take it off while doing little damage to the rest of the plane. Part of the "bug" might be that the rounds hits some of these smaller and less important parts. Flaps and ailerons can also take a 30mm hit and while they fall off it often not fatal for a buff.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: 49Dallas on January 07, 2016, 12:26:47 PM
It's hitting. It's just not doing enough damage to register visually. No one has yet to submit a film showing a problem with the 30mm. We are still waiting for one.
4-5 hits at 0:37
This film is full of [CRAP] Hits on wings, fuselages.
I understand fuselages will take a lot of hits, But eventually they must give. Wings should take what? Two hits? Multiple clips of wings taking multiple hits at the root.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on January 07, 2016, 12:38:55 PM
Those clips do not mean anything, good or bad.
Send the original films if you want us to take a look at it. Happy to do so.
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Zacherof on January 07, 2016, 09:22:52 PM
Just gonna throw this out there, every time I upped with a tater bird I got kills. K4, killed 4 bombers. 2 b17's and 2 lance. I usually aim where the wing connects to the fuselage with the goal of lighting the fuel on fire or taking the wing off. 3 of the kills all I needed was 1 pass. Didint see anything funny.
Another time I hit a pt boat 3 times and he died.
Upped a 152. Hit a 38 twice with the taters... He went down.
110, took of a ponies wings and 3 more taters made him go poof. Killed a 26 setting it on fire and taking another's wing off.
With he 152 and 110G, I fire both 20mm and 30mm guns.
Now this might be an isolated event for a few people????
Title: Re: 30mm is buggy
Post by: Skuzzy on January 08, 2016, 01:34:34 PM
See http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,376889.msg5020473.html#msg5020473 for details.