I am considering requiring a Login ID to do anything in AH including offline play.
I.E. At game start you must log in/create an account. This would allow me to do things like force training missions on users and track their progress.
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
What are peoples thoughts.
HiTech
My thoughts:
Is the goal to screen for new players only?
If it's to catch new players only, and insure they get some training, that would be good even if they want to try it out offline. A YouTube video or at least a link to a controller setup text file they can download and print would be helpful.
* Would you like to download a printable text file of instructions for setting up your controllers and keyboard? * Would you like to view a list of helpful YouTube videos? * Would you like to schedule a lesson with a volunteer trainer?
Any in-game web pages should use a link to an AH Home page accessible page imo.
I certainly don't want to type in my login info each time I need to test a terrain offline.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: bustr on October 01, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
What does a logon for offline play accomplish?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2019, 01:29:13 PM
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
I'll do some testing with Battlefield. It's hard to know since that Origin sorta auto-logs in. I'd be shocked (perhaps annoyed) if I couldn't play the offline campaign without active internet. Easy to test. ;o) Of course the difference is that is a product I've bought.
I think stuff like Steam games use an aged-cache system so for some period of time I could run the game offline without phoning-home. Maybe you can work 3-days disconnected without needing to touch base again? Sometimes I take my laptop out to the boonies to some property. I don't always have internet there. I couldn't work on terrains or missions? Couldn't run the terrain to see how custom objects look in game?
I'm a little concerned that would lose you some casual visitors. some might be put off by having to hand over information email and stuff before even trying a game offline? I guess if you were using a aged-cache, they could toy with it for 3 days before being forced to create an account?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 01, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
It lets you progress in the missions while offline. I don't think it means you have to be online. Just that the game knows who is playing offline instead of SERVER playing.
I certainly don't want to type in my login info each time I need to test a terrain offline.
You can save the login info.
Some things like controller setup can be done with video. Other things like take off and landing make good pass/fail missions that provide opportunities to request training.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Volron on October 01, 2019, 01:51:55 PM
Are you are going to do something similar to War Thunder's "offline" mode? By that, you still have to log in, but they have a basic as spork campaign type thing where you shoot a bunch of bots in a series of mission types you can choose from. The only problem with their setup is you can only use what you've researched and bought so far, so no late war stuff unless you actually have something in that time period, which a new player would not from the start. It also has an extremely basic research gain that only lasts for the first mission or two, which would equate to like 5-10 perks here. It's mostly there for kicks or if you just want to shoot a bunch of stuff without the hassle one tends to run into in their online modes. I got tired of my G5N being intercepted by early F-86's and the occasional MiG-15 in main battle-modes...
In AH's case, a set of training missions with a few "offline missions" they can choose from after they've completed the training missions. Fighter Sweep, Intercept, Ground Attack, Naval Attack, Level Bombing. Each are pretty self explanatory and they can choose what to use, loadout's, etc. Maybe have them successfully complete each before allowing them into the arena's? No Air Spawning though for these missions though. They may take this as the standard for the MA, and when they go there and find out this isn't true, well...bad juju.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: waystin2 on October 01, 2019, 02:10:38 PM
We already login with an ID to the game most every night. Sure.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 01, 2019, 02:18:46 PM
As I think I have stated before, the training arena should allow kills as it use to but only allow those in with a cap on their overall rating Of course the shaders will get around that requirement but I think monitors will recognize them
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Wiley on October 01, 2019, 03:28:09 PM
What I'd suggest is force the account, but have the credit card optional if they aren't subscribing. That's what I've seen in most other games.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 01, 2019, 03:56:02 PM
I don't think it would hurt. Anything to allow new players top hop in and learn the game without having to be in the MA.
What I think would really help new players as well is, having a "New U" arena on a small map similar to the old H2H maps, where only 2 weekers are allowed + official AH trainers who can be in the arena to assist with questions.
This would allow new users to practice with other newbies in a smaller environment that would help them to get into action more quickly.
One of Sam's issues was flying 15 min to a base, only to did in 3 seconds. This is a big problem for many newbs who just don't have the time to learn this way.
A "newU arena on a small map would allow players to still have the "online" feel, but also give them a chance to practice on a smaller scale. That is something that really helped me in H2H. The global map really is just too big for most newbies and can be very time consuming when they don't have clue as to what to do.
What I'd suggest is force the account, but have the credit card optional if they aren't subscribing. That's what I've seen in most other games.
Wiley.
It would simply be the email address. Also steam on Oculus user already are logged in.
Currently to create an account via HTC you simply provide an email and password, then verify the email with a returned code.
A check box could also be added to simply auto log in at start. (Saves one mouse click)
HiTech
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: The Fugitive on October 01, 2019, 04:04:04 PM
Planetside 2 has a training tutorial that you have to go through or it doesnt let you in the arenas.
I liked the idea as I worked my way through it to figure out how things work, but a number of guys I know just want to blow through it and get to the game. So its good and bad. From a customers side Id say it going to be a 50-50 thing. From a business side it sound like another good way to collect data, if that data is needed.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Max on October 01, 2019, 04:28:48 PM
You need a built-in tutorial that can be toggled on or off in the tower. Making it mandatory isn't the solution but making it available is.
An overlay with arrows that point to what things do is a start, particularly the chat bar and controls (to include guns, throttle, etc.).
Might it be possible to award perk points for completed tutorial segments? Not talkin 262's here; just enough to keep new players involved and progressing.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
What I think would really help new players as well is, having a "New U" arena on a small map similar to the old H2H maps, where only 2 weekers are allowed + official AH trainers who can be in the arena to assist with questions.
This would allow new users to practice with other newbies in a smaller environment that would help them to get into action more quickly.
If very few people go into the Training Arena, why do you think they would go there?
I think it is very hard to get anyone to do anything but click on the Melee. Would you force them?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 01, 2019, 04:35:32 PM
Might it be possible to award perk points for completed tutorial segments? Not talkin 262's here; just enough to keep new players involved and progressing.
Yes, or a discount off the subscription for a month after completing.
“COMPLETE THIS TUTORIAL AND GET $5 OFF YOUR FIRST MONTH OF ACES HIGH.”
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2019, 04:39:01 PM
Planetside 2 has a training tutorial that you have to go through or it doesnt let you in the arenas.
I liked the idea as I worked my way through it to figure out how things work, but a number of guys I know just want to blow through it and get to the game. So its good and bad. From a customers side Id say it going to be a 50-50 thing. From a business side it sound like another good way to collect data, if that data is needed.
I think the trick is to keep the mandatory training stripped down to the absolute minimum necessary to get wheels up and have a reasonable chance to at least land some rounds on someone. People are chomping at the bit, so it is a trade-off. You have to define what is the absolute bare minimum to know to make it worth logging in, but keep the forced training lightweight.
Anyone not knowing those absolute basics would be wasting their time. Anyone already knowing those absolute basics should be able to blow through quickly.
Anything beyond the absolute minimum basics should be available as optional (possibly perk awarded for completion).
$0.02, CptTrips
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: ROC on October 01, 2019, 05:00:51 PM
I like it. Maybe a beginner area that has them go through the basic flight controls and how to play the game. World of Tanks and other games do this. WoW has entry level areas and quests that train you as you go. Can't get into the dungeons and such until you are capable of not shooting yourself in the foot. There is an investment in time to learn and seems to retain people better once they "buy in" with some sweat equity.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: streakeagle on October 01, 2019, 06:51:38 PM
While you might want to default to such a tutorial, I don't know about making it mandatory. If I am already an experienced simmer and the tutorial took too long and/or was dreadfully boring, I would uninstall it and never come back.
Many first person shooters either offer or even make you go through some sort of "boot camp" before you can are free to do what you want. But people want to play those games so much that they will blow through those as fast as they can to get to the fun. I don't know that those even slightly interested in combat flight sims are that patient.
But MA numbers aren't going up, so why not try it out. If people can't stand it, they will surely let you know.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 01, 2019, 07:13:10 PM
If I am already an experienced simmer and the tutorial took too long and/or was dreadfully boring, I would uninstall it and never come back.
I completely agree.
You'd definitely want to limit the mandatory part to just what is necessary to get wheels up, find a target on dar, close and shoot something down. If you can't do that, there is no point logging in. If you're experienced, that should take a minimal amount of time.
I mean, you don't want THIS to be their first experience [language warning] :rofl:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Oldman731 on October 01, 2019, 07:48:55 PM
I think the trick is to keep the mandatory training stripped down to the absolute minimum necessary to get wheels up and have a reasonable chance to at least land some rounds on someone. People are chomping at the bit, so it is a trade-off. You have to define what is the absolute bare minimum to know to make it worth logging in, but keep the forced training lightweight.
Agreed. But guiding the noobs through joystick setup, plane selection and load-out, auto takeoff, and how to do a lead turn wouldn't take too long. Then a quick video of someone doing that, and a link to the help section.
- oldman
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 01, 2019, 08:46:31 PM
If very few people go into the Training Arena, why do you think they would go there?
I think it is very hard to get anyone to do anything but click on the Melee. Would you force them?
No one goes into the training arena because there is typically no trainers in there. There's is no push to get people into the TA. Also, you can't shoot anyone down. It's not designed in a team death match approach. People want to hop in and fight and die, not learn ACM in their first week. Perhaps putting them in the New arena after their tutorial, would at least be a feeder for 2 weekers. Then there would be an arena message that says, "this is a new players only, and explain that they are still welcome to play in the MA for 2 weeks. In reality, the MA is just too big for most new players and their 2 week experience.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Volron on October 01, 2019, 09:04:25 PM
You'd definitely want to limit the mandatory part to just what is necessary to get wheels up, find a target on dar, close and shoot something down. If you can't do that, there is no point logging in. If you're experienced, that should take a minimal amount of time.
I mean, you don't want THIS to be their first experience [language warning] :rofl:
In his defense in the beginning after he crashed; it wasn't very easy to notice the little green text saying "Press the QUOTE Key for to enable mouse cursor". Move that off the map and have that text in a box with a black background, and possibly create an option to turn that off once it's figured out.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: LilMak on October 01, 2019, 10:40:41 PM
I think working on the basic interface would pay big dividends as well. Remember when I was a noob thinking the basic clipboard setup was clunky as hell. (Not for flight but in the hangar) Things like the runway layouts as blocks didn’t make any sense. Also stuff like the MOTD showing up on the clipboard leaf and so small that you can barely read it or get the cursor over the X to close it. And why isn’t there a 360 drag so you can see the plane as loaded in the hangar? (That would’ve pretty awesome with all the available skins).
Not really about eye candy but mostly about the intuitive nature or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Shuffler on October 01, 2019, 10:45:44 PM
[Snip] One of Sam's issues was flying 15 min to a base, only to did in 3 seconds. This is a big problem for many newbs who just don't have the time to learn this way. [/Snip]
His main issue was he thought he was top 10 in the world but was actually just another noob. He spent most of his time telling everyone how good he was.....
Training will not help someone who thinks they are the best there is. He blamed the game for his lack of training yet he was not interested in learning anything.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 01, 2019, 10:59:28 PM
Planetside 2 has a training tutorial that you have to go through or it doesnt let you in the arenas.
I liked the idea as I worked my way through it to figure out how things work, but a number of guys I know just want to blow through it and get to the game. ...
I've noticed that most of the games on Oculus have tutorials built in. When I've been away from a game for awhile, I restart the tutorial to remember what controller does what. It's pretty handy for someone like me that rarely gets to play.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Puma44 on October 01, 2019, 11:35:56 PM
His main issue was he thought he was top 10 in the world but was actually just another noob. He spent most of his time telling everyone how good he was.....
Training will not help someone who thinks they are the best there is. He blamed the game for his lack of training yet he was not interested in learning anything.
Spot on. It’s one thing to have multiple people state how amazing you are. Being the only one telling people how amazing you are is a whole other thing. The learning curve as a newb in this game is nearly vertical, even if you’re, or think you are, in the world’s top ten.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: guncrasher on October 02, 2019, 01:42:30 AM
Planetside 2 has a training tutorial that you have to go through or it doesnt let you in the arenas.
I liked the idea as I worked my way through it to figure out how things work, but a number of guys I know just want to blow through it and get to the game. So its good and bad. From a customers side Id say it going to be a 50-50 thing. From a business side it sound like another good way to collect data, if that data is needed.
I tried that tutorial. it's supposed to be 15 minutes took me 25. then I was on the wrong side so I had to do it again. took me an hour and a half after several tries trying to remember where the damn gv computer was, that was frustrating as hell.
semp
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 02, 2019, 01:49:35 AM
I've noticed that most of the games on Oculus have tutorials built in. When I've been away from a game for awhile, I restart the tutorial to remember what controller does what. It's pretty handy for someone like me that rarely gets to play.
:aok DCS has Training Missions for just about every Plane and most uses of Plane...Start up,Taking Off,Landing, Gunnery,Advanced Navigation, Weapon Utilization, ETC. Its a Pause and start again..through them. I use them quite often, as I sometimes forget mappings from Plane To Plane...and time away. They are optional...but I am the type that knows my "short comings" so using these isnt a hit to my ego. ANYTHING at all to get new players hooked...I am ALL FOR IT :rock
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: bozon on October 02, 2019, 05:58:04 AM
Some online arena games have a single-player “academy” where you do a set of missions that reward you with game-money or XP for the main arenas. In AH case the rewards will be perk points.
These missions are single-player but not off-line because you have to be logged into the game servers and they handle the AI. For your FE the academy is like the arena, except you are the only player and the server controls AI that is usually played by the other players.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 02, 2019, 07:07:39 AM
I think it would be fine to allow a login for both online and offline play and adding short to the point training missions would be fantastic as it would not required the player to leave the game to get familiar with the clipboard and basics to get wheels up, turn a bit and hopefully wheels down.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2019, 09:15:29 AM
His main issue was he thought he was top 10 in the world but was actually just another noob. He spent most of his time telling everyone how good he was.....
Training will not help someone who thinks they are the best there is. He blamed the game for his lack of training yet he was not interested in learning anything.
Nonsense. He has been very clear that he was good in a different game and is a newbie with ambitions in Aces High. Like most players he thinks he knows what he needs to learn.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Rebel28 on October 02, 2019, 10:11:25 AM
I would suggest that your login be saved locally for 2-3 days like some other sims. This is for if your internet goes down you can still play offline. Or if no internet is available there is an option for offline mode to bypass login.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Razorbak on October 02, 2019, 10:22:47 AM
The issue with the game isn't the lack of training or if you change it to include more training, our problem is low player counts. I am definitely not a marketing person and wouldn't know what to suggest to get the numbers up.From what i have read folks dont like the static they catch from the typewriter fighters.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: fuzeman on October 02, 2019, 10:34:09 AM
No idea on other computer games as the only other thing I do is a puzzle, Sudoku.
You had to go through some kind of training to climb into a fighter or bomber, or even a jeep, during the real war, yea its NOT real but the principal holds I think, There is a level of skill required to fly or play the game. Having some direction to get a new player that skill level can only be good. Doubt they want to pay $15 just to train so that issue needs fication from clara. Discount while training, if you keep training you earn a discount on monthly cost for as long as you train, have to test or determine skill level for advancement, just a few items for clara.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2019, 10:40:08 AM
The issue with the game isn't the lack of training or if you change it to include more training, our problem is low player counts. I am definitely not a marketing person and wouldn't know what to suggest to get the numbers up.From what i have read folks dont like the static they catch from the typewriter fighters.
The point of the training is increased players by preparing newbies with some basics so they stay with AH instead of trying something easier.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: hitech on October 02, 2019, 10:52:11 AM
The issue with the game isn't the lack of training or if you change it to include more training, our problem is low player counts. I am definitely not a marketing person and wouldn't know what to suggest to get the numbers up.From what i have read folks dont like the static they catch from the typewriter fighters.
Marketing is a very broad term which includes how a game is presented , produced and what type of player it is geared towards.
There are primarily 4 steps in the Marketing of a game.
1. Get a person to know about your product. 2. Get a user to download and try your product. 3. Get a user to pay for your product. 4. Keep the user paying for your product.
All 4 steps must be subjected to cost benefit analyses. What this thread is about is primarily step 3. And a little of step 2.
HiTech
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: turt21 on October 02, 2019, 10:54:05 AM
If I am already an experienced simmer and the tutorial took too long and/or was dreadfully boring, I would uninstall it and never come back.
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Razorbak on October 02, 2019, 10:55:39 AM
The point of the training is increased players by preparing newbies with some basics so they stay with AH instead of trying something easier. [/quote
IMO if you look at the old air warrior they had an arena for newbs only till you got a certain score but if you dont get the numbers up an increased training regime wont help. Have you folks thought about trying a world of tank model where the game is free to play but you have to buy things as you go, just a suggestion and trying to help.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: hitech on October 02, 2019, 11:38:58 AM
[ Have you folks thought about trying a world of tank model where the game is free to play but you have to buy things as you go, just a suggestion and trying to help.
Yep created an entire new game War Online Pacific to try out that model.
HiTech
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: bustr on October 02, 2019, 11:43:25 AM
I tried that tutorial. it's supposed to be 15 minutes took me 25. then I was on the wrong side so I had to do it again. took me an hour and a half after several tries trying to remember where the damn gv computer was, that was frustrating as hell.
semp
A little back ground in defense of semp's first experience with PlanetSide 2.
POTW as a squad decided to check it out recently. They have a forced tutorial which can be confusing since their tutorial arena limit's your vision, the horizon and ceiling is capped with a net mesh, and your ears are constantly overloaded with music and sound effects. That is a targeted demographics give away. It's a good representation of combat in the game though, and combat is visually and auditory max overload. I went through the tutorial in 15 min then got setup on the correct continent in the pig's local squad on that continent. Then for the first week, hours of spawn then die, spawn then die, spawn then die. All the bad arse piggies from AH3, sucked while we started figuring out how to not suck. At least in PS2 your keyboard and mouse let you instantly jump into action and kill a few things, while running around is learning the strategy's of not running around like a lame newbie giving away kills. AH3, you have to learn how to fly, then learn ACM, then maybe get a kill on a vet who went afk. In PS2 they have flying, if you can figure out how to fly a Harrier where the wings are replaced with directional jets and you cannot do straffing runs. I'm still learning how to hover and put the pipper on one point to unload my my gun into a target. And landing, you land like using a VTOL and you cannot see down between your legs. So semp got information and sensory overload which many FPS games are defined by.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Mister Fork on October 02, 2019, 11:59:45 AM
There are a lot of games now that force you through 'training' before allowing you to play the actual game. It's not a bad idea - to force new players into the training modules first before being allowed to fly.
It's actually a great idea Hitech.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: bustr on October 02, 2019, 01:08:36 PM
The AH3 clipboard is so tame and easy to navigate, that may be turning off a younger demographic expecting hand holding pazzazzz. Other games have so many eclectic nested pages of pictures and goodies and vague explanations of things in mind boggling technical writing overdose. But, they have a very well constructed forced tutorial that is almost like playing an AI version of the main game. While following a training regiment designed to get you up and running just enough that you can functionally shoot back in the real game and start earning game cash to level up.
Part of why I asked Hitech if he intended to expand the AI into offline mode. I ended up building an offline gunnery terrain to practice everything that goes boom engineered so you can fill the drone slots with airplanes or tanks then be able to shoot or bomb those drones on actual ranges. All the airspawns didn't hurt since you don't waste your play time climbing to alt. When I learned how to use a new object that launches AI for a match play arena, yes I could have placed that object on my gunnery terrain but, you cannot force it to launch only specified airplanes.
A new player forced tutorial arena with combat AI and gunnery ranges and so on and so on. Would be what many new customers expect to run into with our game from all the other games they play. And an offline version would not be unthinkable other than active combat AI might be giving away a little too much. Still, it would be nice to tell the drones to fly a few different patterns and have them fly at higher speeds for offline gunnery training.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: captain1ma on October 02, 2019, 01:14:22 PM
almost every game out there requires some sort of login, why shouldn't yours be any different. go for it.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 02, 2019, 01:19:01 PM
almost every game out there requires some sort of login, why shouldn't yours be any different. go for it.
Exactly and any training should be quick and to the point. Show the important areas of the clipboard, basics for take off, some basics of flight, some air to air gunnery, air to ground attack, a quick overview of level bombing and finally a crash course in landing.
nothing more and nothing less.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 02, 2019, 02:07:51 PM
One thing worth keeping in mind is change risk.
If you have training created going in to deep detail of working with the Clipboard interface, that training needs to be updated any time there are UI changes. That can be painful.
There are different possible channels for training: web pages, Youtube video, compiled missions, with different costs and difficulty in updating/redo'ing. There would be nothing worse to spend a lot of time creating training and then UI/behaviors change and you don't update/redo the training to stay synced. It is insanely annoying to be following a tutorial and being told click on something and you can't find it. As a newbie, you don't know if the tutorial is out of date of it, you are just missing something. I'd suggest thinking carefully about:
1. Isolate areas of stuff most likely to change from everything else to minimize impact. (e.g. you might want to separate training on the Clipboard to it's own module. That UI is more like to change and cause the training to be redone, than flying and shooting.
2. Put stuff likely to change in the format that is cheapest and easiest to change. Stuff that will need to change often should be in web pages not videos that have to be re-recorded. ;)
3. If you know ahead of time you have big UI/behavior changes on the horizon, you might want to do that first before building training that will then have to be changed.
4. You'll want to think about a process for reviewing what code changes will affect what training so you can update the training at the same time so that newbies aren't being told to do stuff they can't in the UI after a release comes out.
$0.02.
:salute, CptTrips
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 02, 2019, 02:33:09 PM
Basic stuff on the clipboard that is unlikely to change is what I am referring to.
1. Oclub
2. Hangar
3. settings
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 02, 2019, 03:07:03 PM
Exactly and any training should be quick and to the point. Show the important areas of the clipboard, basics for take off, some basics of flight, some air to air gunnery, air to ground attack, a quick overview of level bombing and finally a crash course in landing.
nothing more and nothing less.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
THEY ABSOLUTELY must be shown how to communicate. Players who cannot ask for help are doomed.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2019, 03:45:32 PM
You don't really need a training mission for the clipboard or comms. A video is enough.
I'm picturing more of a take off and landing mission that's pass/fail and gives the new player a focused task that requires learning some aero and practicing flight control. Failure can trigger an email link for optional free training.
A mission progression from basic flying to shooting drones to fighting AI builds on previous knowledge and provides at least some minimal preparation for the MA. A trainer can help at each stage if required. It's often easier to learn just a few things at a time.
It should be easy enough for a vet from another sim. If it isn't they need the practice and likely the training too.
I think most new players picture themselves in fighters until they try them and that's where they need initial help.
Alternatively you could have a fighter path, a bomber path, and a vehicle/ship path. Complete one or all three. You don't want to force fighter guys into bomber training or vice versa.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 02, 2019, 04:18:46 PM
You don't really need a training mission for the clipboard or comms. A video is enough.
I'm picturing more of a take off and landing mission that's pass/fail and gives the new player a focused task that requires learning some aero and practicing flight control. Failure can trigger an email link for optional free training.
A mission progression from basic flying to shooting drones to fighting AI builds on previous knowledge and provides at least some minimal preparation for the MA. A trainer can help at each stage if required. It's often easier to learn just a few things at a time.
It should be easy enough for a vet from another sim. If it isn't they need the practice and likely the training too.
I think most new players picture themselves in fighters until they try them and that's where they need initial help.
You need an arrow with an overlay explaining how to talk.
Communication is EVERYTHING. If they can’t communicate they can’t seek help and they quit. I’ve seen it dozens of times in the very recent past.
They will never watch a video.
You need an arrow in yellow pointing CLICK HERE TO COMMUNICATE OR PRESS / TO OPEN THE TEXT BAR.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2019, 04:29:09 PM
You're describing a likely video scenario showing how to communicate. Press a default keyboard key (note the YELLOW arrow) or use a mapped controller.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 02, 2019, 04:43:50 PM
You're describing a likely video scenario showing how to communicate. Press a default keyboard key (note the YELLOW arrow) or use a mapped controller.
NOBODY is going to watch a video.
The videos we have now are already clunky as it is. You start overpowering players with this stuff and they’ll quit.
This isn’t rocket surgery. You don’t need a sledgehammer to pound a nail. Let’s not get too cute here.
You need an interactive overlay that shows them where to click and has them do it. A video isn’t gonna cut it for many reasons and isn’t going to be as effective as having them actually manipulate the interface.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Wiley on October 02, 2019, 05:03:59 PM
All of this. So much of this. Doing it through video is IMO just barely short of a complete waste of time. People expect to go through it in game as it happens. Yes, it is possible to learn by watching a video, but a lot of people simply won't do it.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 02, 2019, 05:05:30 PM
All of this. So much of this. Doing it through video is IMO just barely short of a complete waste of time. People expect to go through it in game as it happens. Yes, it is possible to learn by watching a video, but a lot of people simply won't do it.
Wiley.
I agree no one is going to want to sit through a long training film when they are chomping a the bit to get in the air. And if they did, they'd forget most of it. People can only handle little nuggets of info at a time.
Do you think it would work if the video were chopped up into bite size ~1m segments and interwoven with flight?
Like the game is pauses in flight, the clipboard comes up, the side panel flips out and a 1m video explains what you need to do in the next step. Hit esq to continue. That closes the clipboard and you fly on until the next check-point and then rinse, repeat?
If you did it right, these snipits could also be stitched together to make full videos to put on Youtube for later offline review. Reuse the same content twice.
Thoughts?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 02, 2019, 05:28:46 PM
I agree no one is going to want to sit through a long training film when they are chomping a the bit to get in the air. And if they did, they'd forget most of it. People can only handle little nuggets of info at a time.
Do you think it would work if the video were chopped up into bite size ~1m segments and interwoven with flight?
Like the game is pauses in flight, the clipboard comes up, the side panel flips out and a 1m video explains what you need to do in the next step. Hit esq to continue. That closes the clipboard and you fly on until the next check-point and then rinse, repeat?
If you did it right, these snipits could also be stitched together to make full videos to put on Youtube for later offline review. Reuse the same content twice.
Thoughts?
Don’t overthink it.
Show them the things they need to do as overlays in sequence. If you want to link to an optional video that’s fine, but it should be doable in real time with an interactive overlay.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 02, 2019, 05:28:56 PM
Making it mandatory isn't the solution but making it available is.
You're correct it should be made an option. In addition, I think it would be beneficial to new players if they had a "New Player" arena, similar in setup like it was in Air Warrior, which would be online that they could enter after they go through the offline training mode or if they decide to skip the tutorial. It would give the players that decide to through the tutorial an arena of relatively safety (from veteran players) that they could practice what they learned from the tutorial against other new players. Those that skip the tutorial would also have access to the new player arena and would quickly learn that maybe they shouldn't have skipped the tutorial and go back and do it.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: AKKuya on October 02, 2019, 05:34:36 PM
I am considering requiring a Login ID to do anything in AH including offline play.
I.E. At game start you must log in/create an account. This would allow me to do things like force training missions on users and track their progress.
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
What are peoples thoughts.
HiTech
I was in a middle of moving from one apartment complex to another when this thread started. I needed some time to think about this.
Forcing new players into a training mission to learn the game is a very good approach. Questions. 1) What format(s) will you implement in teaching them the game while they play by themselves? 2) Will these formats be step by step through visual and audio directions? 3) Will they be progressive in learning the vast amount of knowledge to allow for better experiences once entering into the Melee Arena with the experienced players?
Let's say I win the lotto and have money and time to kill. 1) I would start a small business in a very good retail location and put in a fully loaded Aces High setup in a prominent place within the store. 2) I would hire some young people who are masters in the social media world. 3) I would have them learn the game and setup personal game accounts and forum accounts here. 4) I would be having them create video instructions of the game placed in YouTube being tagged in the social media platforms. (plus original content on current game news) 5) Myself and few others knowledgeable about the game would be in the store acting as ambassadors to customers when seeing the operation.
The key point is person to person contact rather than a voice in your headset. Sitting next to a prospective player and explaining the fundamentals of the game, that would go a long way.
We are all for new ideas to get more players. There should be very well though out plan to keep them.
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 02, 2019, 05:35:12 PM
His main issue was he thought he was top 10 in the world but was actually just another noob. He spent most of his time telling everyone how good he was.....
Training will not help someone who thinks they are the best there is. He blamed the game for his lack of training yet he was not interested in learning anything.
Yes, SAAMIAM did at first think he was an experten when he first started because of his previous experience in another flight sim. It's not an uncommon thing, I felt the same way due to my experience from Air Warrior and Warbirds when I first started AH. It took a week of getting my butt handed to me that I figured it might be a good idea to learn the game instead of thinking I was king because I was good in AW and WB.
SAAMIAM is trying to learn the game and to get used to the flight model and other intricacies of the game. When he's in the same area as I am, he asks if he could fly my wing so he could learn. To me, that shows he is willing and wanting to learn and I think if there was a new player arena he could fly in along with a tutorial, he would jump at the chance to take advantage of it.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Wiley on October 02, 2019, 05:42:24 PM
I agree no one is going to want to sit through a long training film when they are chomping a the bit to get in the air. And if they did, they'd forget most of it. People can only handle little nuggets of info at a time.
Do you think it would work if the video were chopped up into bite size ~1m segments and interwoven with flight?
Like the game is pauses in flight, the clipboard comes up, the side panel flips out and a 1m video explains what you need to do in the next step. Hit esq to continue. That closes the clipboard and you fly on until the next check-point and then rinse, repeat?
Could be, but why bother with a video when you can just have some text come up on screen to say, "Press E to start engine." "Getting too slow will cause your plane to stall." and like such as. It makes it a lot less stop and go.
If you're thinking in terms of BFM, what would be more effective, a video of a plane doing a loop, or flying through a few rings set up in a loop configuration? Or something along those lines...
Now that I think about it, what you're talking about is pretty similar to how driving school worked in GTA San Andreas. It wasn't bad.
Maybe a video with the text of the explanation alongside it, so if they forget something from the video they don't have to dick around with rewinding.
Wiley.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 02, 2019, 05:43:53 PM
His main issue was he thought he was top 10 in the world but was actually just another noob. He spent most of his time telling everyone how good he was.....
Training will not help someone who thinks they are the best there is. He blamed the game for his lack of training yet he was not interested in learning anything.
Well, that's besides the point. My point was that he had to fly for what seemed like a far time consuming distance to get into any action, then would die quickly when he did find the action. I feel like this a a typical situation for any noob.
While I think an AI arena would be okay in the beginning. These guys still want to fight against and with real people online. That's why I think a 2 week feeder arena on a much smaller scale arena would work out pretty well for noobs to get the hang of the game at a faster pace. This would allow players to get into the arena and fight against other noobs quickly, while being able to ask questions as well.
I really think it's something that AH is lacking. The MA is a big world for these new guys.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 02, 2019, 05:59:58 PM
That's why I think a 2 week feeder arena on a much smaller scale arena would work out pretty well for noobs to get the hang of the game at a faster pace. This would allow players to get into the arena and fight against other noobs quickly, while being able to ask questions as well.
I agree pretty much. But you're assuming it is always populated?
I'm a new player, I download, install, get dropped in a noob arena....and it's empty. Silence except for the wind and a lonely tumble bouncing across the runway.
Not a good first impression.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 02, 2019, 06:04:44 PM
Could be, but why bother with a video when you can just have some text come up on screen to say, "Press E to start engine." "Getting too slow will cause your plane to stall." and like such as. It makes it a lot less stop and go.
If you're thinking in terms of BFM, what would be more effective, a video of a plane doing a loop, or flying through a few rings set up in a loop configuration? Or something along those lines...
Now that I think about it, what you're talking about is pretty similar to how driving school worked in GTA San Andreas. It wasn't bad.
Maybe a video with the text of the explanation alongside it, so if they forget something from the video they don't have to dick around with rewinding.
Wiley.
This.
“In auto-takeoff mode landing gear will retract automatically. You can manually select gear by pressing the G key.”
“Select autopilot mode by pressing...”
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 02, 2019, 06:21:38 PM
Maybe a video with the text of the explanation alongside it, so if they forget something from the video they don't have to dick around with rewinding.
That's definitely the drawback of a video.
I suspect you would want to use a mixture of methods.
There are certainly actions that fit in to a one-liner of text. There are other things I'm not sure it could handle.
Like explaining how to remap controller buttons and axis.
Like how to pan and zoom the map to find a dar bar to determine where the action is. How many paragraphs would you need to explain what you mean by a dar bar as opposed to seeing the video do the operation and then highlight in the picture what you are calling a dar bar.
I think you'll need more than a hammer, because not every problem is a nail.
$0.02, CptTrips
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 02, 2019, 06:25:29 PM
I suspect you would want to use a mixture of methods.
There are certainly actions that fit in to a one-liner of text. There are other things I'm not sure it could handle.
Like explaining how to remap controller buttons and axis.
Like how to pan and zoom the map to find a dar bar to determine where the action is. How many paragraphs would you need to explain what you mean by a dar bar as opose to seeing the video do the operation and then highlight in the picture what you are calling a dar bar.
I think you'll need more than a hammer, because not every problem is a nail.
$0.02, CptTrips
Doesn’t mean you need a sledgehammer for everything—or much of anything.
An interactive overlay is going to cover the important things that frustrate people into quitting.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 02, 2019, 06:28:42 PM
No point quibbling over details since there aren't any yet.
Everybody seems to think it's generally a good idea. :aok
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 02, 2019, 06:45:49 PM
I agree pretty much. But you're assuming it is always populated?
I'm a new player, I download, install, get dropped in a noob arena....and it's empty. Silence except for the wind and a lonely tumble bouncing across the runway.
Not a good first impression.
I feel like If it auto fed people in there it wouldn't be unpopulated. Plus I think noobs actually would go back in there during their 2 weeks. If it was a small team death match arena, i think noobs would have a good time on it. Bases should be no further than 10 miles apart.
All it takes is about 4 people in a room to get it to pick up pace. Once you get 6-15 players in there, its a lot of fun.
Did anyone notice that Ack Ack and I actually sorta agreed on something for once! How about that! :D
I also think Key board loading screens that show what the buttons do also helps a lot. You see this in many popular games.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 02, 2019, 06:55:45 PM
If I remember right, the first time when entering with Oculus, there are over-lays for each Touch controller. I always wondered but never checked to see if the controllers work with every plane. Somehow I doubt the older models work in that scenario, hope so but if not...
A beginner's arena can turn down the base ack and assign the newbie the mission of killing the enemy base ack. Gains flying skill while getting some target practice on stationary objects.
Perhaps a series of lesson arena, practice take-off, kill some targets, landing, beginner's early combat.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 02, 2019, 06:57:30 PM
I feel like If it auto fed people in there it wouldn't be unpopulated. Plus I think noobs actually would go back in there during their 2 weeks. If it was a small team death match arena, i think noobs would have a good time on it. Bases should be no further than 10 miles apart. ...
See the new Combat terrain based on one of Pokie's AHI terrains.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 02, 2019, 08:08:54 PM
If I remember right, the first time when entering with Oculus, there are over-lays for each Touch controller.
Don't get me wrong. I love those VR controller call-outs you see in various games. That is a very elegant system. However, I believe that is probably provided by the device sdk. He just has to stick in the labeling he wants.
That is somewhat different from what is being suggested here.
Those call-outs are always there and there is a fixed number of buttons that need to be labeled. And the labels are static.
In this case, the callout come and go. They need to be dynamic. Which means they need to be scriptable. They need events to inform them when to show and when to hide.
The following is not what you'd have in a beginer training, but the idea is the same: https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397806.msg5273544.html#msg5273544 (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397806.msg5273544.html#msg5273544)
Your training mission would need to script those call-outs to show up at a certain time in the mission and you probably don't want to blast them all up at once, so there would need to be script/event structure to say "show a call-out on control X at t+1:35" Then OnCLick event to tell the system to close that call-out and show the next step in sequence when the button is clicked. Etc, etc.
So you'd need a scripting and event system for every button and listbox item on the UI and some identifier for every control widget on the UI so you can refer to them in your script and invoke a call-out, as opposed to a video where you have graphically annotated stuff with existing tools like:
I know there is some stuff like this in the mission system but I only remember seeing controller button and axis events etc, but I don't see anything involving the clipboard UI wigets. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/iz5dr31rky2wac8/events.png?raw=1)
So, if that kind of capability already exists, could easily be created, or he was planning on doing it anyway, then rock on Garth! :rock If not, it sounds like it could be a lot of work to implement a new framework.
But as someone else said earlier, ANY in-line training you can put in front of a new player is going to be a huge benefit. I'd say sooner the better. If a perfect system would take months and months to implement, then I'd suggest simpler approaches you could do quicker first. See if it starts to pay dividend, THEN refine.
Nothing is chiseled in stone. I'm sure training would evolve over time. Later, simpler versions could be replaced with slicker approaches.
Perfect should not be made the enemy of good, and sometimes a less perfect solution that arrives on time is superior to the perfect solution that arrives too late.
$0.02.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Molsman on October 02, 2019, 09:12:52 PM
A new arena for players checking out this Game would be great. in my Other adventures with online games I could not enter any person to person battles with out passing the training segments for that game. Dale I know you are trying your best to grab new players and all so this Training arena would have my vote make them do certain points before they move on this is the only way new players can learn this game you want to make them feel wanted and to stay. The game I am in now whenever they come out with a new segment ie helicopters and naval battles before we have the chance to go live we go thru walk thru on how the vessels work and the way the guns and aiming work and to me this is a Major plus to keep players.
Granted before all the new graphics and types of playing styles where here to the millennial's We as an Aces High Family evolved from Air Warrior War Bird and others that is why the veterans of this Game are so close cause we started from ground Zero and Worked our Ways up. I would hate to see this game die since I have also spent close to 20 years here but I needed a change and new venue.
Also the games have e finally opened up to the Xbox and play station consoles <S> Molsman
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: atlau on October 02, 2019, 11:05:30 PM
Maybe the beginner arena is the perfect place for some dumber down AI to serve as targets.... not the uber AI that can make a 410 turn like a spit: )
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: JimmyC on October 02, 2019, 11:12:25 PM
I am considering requiring a Login ID to do anything in AH including offline play.
I.E. At game start you must log in/create an account. This would allow me to do things like force training missions on users and track their progress.
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
What are peoples thoughts.
HiTech
Sounds like great idea! Please have the option for experienced players to bypass extensive training with a successful check ride for whatever they want to do online, like ground vehicles/boats or aircraft. :cheers:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: atlau on October 03, 2019, 08:39:50 AM
Definitely. However, I bet his experience is the same as a LARGE majority of the new players trying the game for the first time. I think Hitech said something like 80% of the new players downloading the game and trying it don't even have joystick.
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Like him sitting on the runway just shooting his guns in the air frustrated and not knowing what to do. How many of us have seen newbs doing that? Like him driving around 20 min in a tank trying to find action. "No action...no action...oh look I found a field with corn in it.....this is verrrrry boring."
:bhead
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 03, 2019, 09:33:49 AM
Definitely. However, I bet his experience is the same as a LARGE majority of the new players trying the game for the first time. I think Hitech said something like 80% of the new players downloading the game and trying it don't even have joystick.
I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Like him sitting on the runway just shooting his guns in the air frustrated and not knowing what to do. How many of us have seen newbs doing that? Like him driving around 20 min in a tank trying to find action. "No action...no action...oh look I found a field with corn in it.....this is verrrrry boring."
:bhead
:salute
This was my thought. This guy actually stuck with it longer than most but the results were the same.
The default settings need to be simplified, too. They guy couldn’t figure out how to look around. His viewing angles were all screwed up. I don’t know the answer but something needs tweaking.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Spikes on October 03, 2019, 09:50:46 AM
An on-screen key layout for most used buttons would be nice as an overlay like PUBG has, just the basics like movement, switch weapon, etc. It could be adjustable like the on-screen speed and altitude area is.
I'd say default stuff like Engine, Flaps, Gear, Brakes, Throttle, RPM, numpad for default views, fire and switch weapon buttons. And of course have the ability to turn that menu off.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 03, 2019, 09:54:10 AM
And the ability to turn it back on if disabled by accident or a refresher is needed. A small transluscent checkbox in the corner to Enable/Disable would work.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 03, 2019, 09:55:23 AM
This is kind of an interesting watch:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Spikes on October 03, 2019, 10:24:08 AM
And the ability to turn it back on if disabled by accident or a refresher is needed. A small transluscent checkbox in the corner to Enable/Disable would work.
Yep...for learning new games it is definitely helpful, especially when all the different sims and games have different button setups for each function.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Trev95 on October 03, 2019, 10:48:48 AM
I am down for anything that would facilitate "training missions" for new players. I is not uncommon for new players to show up an not be able to up off the runway. With that being said, I would ask we have a remember login check box so we don't have to type in an id and password every time we want to log in. Thanks for the post Hightech!
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Volron on October 03, 2019, 11:37:32 AM
One thing that would help overall is removing the update video for the FM2/F4F on the main site. That update happened over 2 years ago. If I were new and saw that, I would be less incline to try Aces High right away due to the age of that video. Posting some more recent video's, maybe from some of your customer's they have created recently, would be better if you really want to keep a video slot there. You could call it something like "Video of the Month".
You may also want to point out that you are a small team working on AH somewhere on top. This might create more leniency towards trying the game out from the get go. Yes, I know it's two clicks to find this out, but most now-a-day's won't even bother with that.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 03, 2019, 12:19:47 PM
One thing that would help overall is removing the update video for the FM2/F4F on the main site. That update happened over 2 years ago. If I were new and saw that, I would be less incline to try Aces High right away due to the age of that video. Posting some more recent video's, maybe from some of your customer's they have created recently, would be better if you really want to keep a video slot there. You could call it something like "Video of the Month".
You may also want to point out that you are a small team working on AH somewhere on top. This might create more leniency towards trying the game out from the get go. Yes, I know it's two clicks to find this out, but most now-a-day's won't even bother with that.
A film of the month would be awesome!!
They need to post special events announcements with pics and vids of last year's event as well. Make the front page look like AH has things going on!
The front page website is about as terrible as the Match play arena right now. Total opportunity loss. I don't understand why someone like Brooke or FLS, or a special events coordinator, does not have access to website editting.
All we can be is a squeaky wheel I guess...
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 03, 2019, 12:39:19 PM
With that being said, I would ask we have a remember login check box so we don't have to type in an id and password every time we want to log in. Thanks for the post Hightech!
You don't have to type in your login credentials each time you log into the game, it remembers it. Just check the "Save Password" box.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 03, 2019, 02:03:43 PM
I don't understand why someone like Brooke or FLS, or a special events coordinator, does not have access to website editting.
All we can be is a squeaky wheel I guess...
I don't do website editing. But it's nice of you to volunteer me.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Mister Fork on October 03, 2019, 02:21:04 PM
Basically, it's like this...to see if our instructional system works for Aces High, I would need to sit down my wife and have her do the training to see if she can take off and play Aces High. If she can do it with the training, then anyone can.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: ccvi on October 03, 2019, 04:39:32 PM
Yes, or a discount off the subscription for a month after completing.
“COMPLETE THIS TUTORIAL AND GET $5 OFF YOUR FIRST MONTH OF ACES HIGH.”
Or grant the free 2 weeks split into individual days for small steps of progress in training. First free online time after being able to take off, only to get shot down, obviously. But there's more training missions available to earn more free time. Sounds like a drug.
Avoid calling anything "forced", "help", or "training". People are pilots, and pilots are confident. They don't need training or help.
THEY ABSOLUTELY must be shown how to communicate. Players who cannot ask for help are doomed.
I may have suggested this once or twice, but it would probably help if the default button to open the chat input bar was the same button as in basically every other game.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 03, 2019, 05:59:46 PM
Basically, it's like this...to see if our instructional system works for Aces High, I would need to sit down my wife and have her do the training to see if she can take off and play Aces High. If she can do it with the training, then anyone can.
I did a clean install of the game to check out the experience and fired up my Oculus.
I was happily surprised with the multi-part video introductions. However, the experience isn't good overall. There are gaps when the player should be encouraged to take a specific action, or refrain from doing so, among other things. Some initial built-in game settings need to be tweaked imo, the Touch rudder setting was disabled.:huh I'll try to compile a list, but the rest of you can do the same thing I've done. Save-rename your current Hitech Creations folder and reinstall the game like any new user. Disconnect your joystick, etc., or not, your choice. Start fresh. You can use you current login ID and password without issues.
I suspect there will be a lot of useful comments from anyone who tests the new user's experience. Everything from the video window being too small for viewing, and the video image freezing if clicked while the voice-over continues, to ads (Trump atm) between videos if you don't move on to the next step in time.
:cheers:
Edit: My experience as a near 20 yr player has no connection to the new player's introduction to the game, zero, none.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2019, 01:05:05 PM
Avoid calling anything "forced", "help", or "training". People are pilots, and pilots are confident. They don't need training or help.
How about "Qualification Course"?
Want to get rated to fly in Aces High Melee Arena? Show us you got the right stuff.
Are you pilot enough? ;)
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Shuffler on October 04, 2019, 01:35:42 PM
LOL
<‐------------- YOU MUST BE AT LEAST THIS TALL TO FLY IN THE MELEE ARENA
Title: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 04, 2019, 01:55:29 PM
I think the intent has been missed. We have pushed and pushed for Dale to incorporate training for new players to help get them up and running in the MA.
Dale has put the question to us.
What we do know is this:
A basic crash course that does not rely on videos or going to any external website but one that relies on hands on training is needed.
A simple hands on tutorial for the basic areas of the clipboard is needed.
A simple hands on tutorial of the chat buffer and dot commands is also needed.
This is not for the players that have been here for a while.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 04, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
I think the intent has been missed. We have pushed and pushed for Dale to incorporate training for new players to help get them up and running in the MA.
Dale has put the question to us. ...
I thought the question was "What do you think about logging on?" :D
Title: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 04, 2019, 02:30:20 PM
I am considering requiring a Login ID to do anything in AH including offline play.
I.E. At game start you must log in/create an account.
**** This would allow me to do things like force training missions on users and track their progress. ****
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
What are peoples thoughts.
HiTech
Pay attention the astriks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 04, 2019, 02:38:47 PM
I saw that. He's explaining the purpose of the login he asked about.
It's an exciting development.
I don't see where he asks for help designing training missions.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 04, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
He hasn't, however, his statement does lend one to believe that the focus of his question is primarily based around new folks and how he can retain them by providing training and track training to ease the learning curve of this game.
While this does not exclude current players the intent is for new player retention. So any "mandatory" training would be tailored to those ends and to those topics I listed in a previous post.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 04, 2019, 02:47:37 PM
How dare we have a conversation!
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 04, 2019, 03:24:23 PM
I think the intent has been missed. We have pushed and pushed for Dale to incorporate training for new players to help get them up and running in the MA.
Dale has put the question to us.
What we do know is this:
A basic crash course that does not rely on videos or going to any external website but one that relies on hands on training is needed.
A simple hands on tutorial for the basic areas of the clipboard is needed.
A simple hands on tutorial of the chat buffer and dot commands is also needed.
This is not for the players that have been here for a while.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 04, 2019, 03:32:35 PM
He hasn't, however, his statement does lend one to believe that the focus of his question is primarily based around new folks and how he can retain them by providing training and track training to ease the learning curve of this game.
While this does not exclude current players the intent is for new player retention. So any "mandatory" training would be tailored to those ends and to those topics I listed in a previous post.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds like he was just too shy to ask for help. :lol
I'm pretty sure the focus of his question was adding a login for all AH activities.
I'm pretty sure the focus of his question was adding a login for all AH activities.
Seems cruel for activities like building maps (cycling in and out of the game, with zero dependency to anything online). Data will probably show that the only other offline use is practicing impossible shots. Interesting data, possibly. Helpful to understand new players or even guide them, unlikely.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 04, 2019, 05:16:28 PM
Cruel? Like the heartbreak of auto-login? :cry
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: lunaticfringe on October 04, 2019, 10:03:49 PM
Pretty much he is 73 percent of attention seeking non journalist media people. Whether a wanna be reality TV star or a YouTube influencer. Their shtick is to get half of viewers to hate them and the other half to go "right on man," by deploying childish snark, foul language, preening bellicosity, stupid logic or good old fashioned straw man/conflict intensification. Sort of like Zack :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank: :blank:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: pembquist on October 05, 2019, 11:05:38 AM
I don't really use offline, if AI was easier to use or had a coherent range of missions to pick from that emphasized combat over navigation I would. I don't think logging in would be a deterrent, I don't really know if there is a point to having offline game play anymore, what would be available that wouldn't be better on your servers anyway?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2019, 11:42:58 AM
Pretty much he is 73 percent of attention seeking non journalist media people.
Agreed.
But do you think his experience was much different than the the 85% of new players that download the game and don't have a joystick or a clue, experience?
Watch it again and turn off the sound so you don't hear his annoying voice. I'll bet you a beer that is exactly the experience that most new players have with the game.
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 05, 2019, 12:01:56 PM
But do you think his experience was much different than the the 85% of new players that download the game and don't have a joystick or a clue, experience?
Watch it again and turn off the sound so you don't hear his annoying voice. I'll bet you a beer that is exactly the experience that most new players have with the game.
:salute
You are 100% correct, except that many players don’t even get airborne. They ditch in the grass off the runway or sit at the spawn firing their guns while motionless.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: ccvi on October 05, 2019, 12:09:06 PM
Test flights on new terrain with lots of crashes. "You have trouble landing. Please do 10 touchandgoes before continuing." Cruel.
Internet down, can't fly online (yes, internet down happens, at least communication to HTC servers). Can't even spend the time planned to fly shooting offline drones. Cruel.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Lazerr on October 05, 2019, 12:19:34 PM
My thoughts are training and easier default setups for controls would be a plus. There are some game mechanics that will really turn heads of people looking for action in the MA (the arena they pay for, that pays you). Want me to list the three big ones? :uhoh
I look for you when I am online, and would love to show you what I consider huge faults in the current pay to play arena. If you want to setup a time to play together it would take about an hour. Ill even open a 2nd account to be able to access all sides of the arena, to show you that one country is almost ALWAYS at a disadvantage to locating $14.95 worth of fun, in a great game.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
In the last 100 days aprox 40,000 people have installed Aces High, 20,000 new people have created accounts and entered an arena. Of the people entering the arena 65% are gone and do never reenter by the 10 minute mark of being in the arena. 75% are gone after 30 Minutes.
[...]
Also not only about 15% of people who try AH have Joy Sticks.
[...]
We used to run between a 10 to 12% conversion rate from entering an arena to subscriber. My goal currently is to substantially raise my current conversion rate which is around 1%.
Test flights on new terrain with lots of crashes. "You have trouble landing. Please do 10 touchandgoes before continuing." Cruel.
Internet down, can't fly online (yes, internet down happens, at least communication to HTC servers). Can't even spend the time planned to fly shooting offline drones. Cruel.
Do you realize you just made those up and they aren't actual problems?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: ccvi on October 05, 2019, 01:42:28 PM
Do you realize you just made those up and they aren't actual problems?
We're living in a civilized nearly perfect world. It doesn't have to be famine, wild animals eating your kids, or similar to qualify as problems.
Obviously everything is made up at this point, because we're discussing a theoretical new feature, not ab existing one. Depending on specific details of the implementation these conditions could change from hypothetical made up to real.
You may have access to a preview and can already see how thong work in detail, and judge what effect things have on the various currently existing use-caes?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2019, 02:06:52 PM
But do you think his experience was much different than the the 85% of new players that download the game and don't have a joystick or a clue, experience?
Watch it again and turn off the sound so you don't hear his annoying voice. I'll bet you a beer that is exactly the experience that most new players have with the game.
:salute
Oh no, I don't disagree that it is lousy for a person with no physical flight controls and only the haziest idea of what an aileron is. I think most of those 40,000 downloaders, broadly speaking, don't have any real interest in playing a simulation but rather want to play a game. I would be curious how many people with joysticks have the same discard rate. Compared to IL2 AH was like the sin qua non of easy to use player interface. I think if you had watched me trying IL2 with a weak computer you would have seen the same frustrated video. AH2 was simply amazing when I first tried it. It ran on my absolutely sub-par computer without graphics card and I could actually look around without track IR.
If you want new "players" to have a better time than maybe having a pop driven default to taking off automatically in a Spitfire with flashing text suggestions like "press+ to increase throttle - to decrease" (or whatever it is) playing constantly until a prominent opt out opt in check box is checked. I think that would be better than a sequence of training.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 05, 2019, 06:20:57 PM
Back in the day, there was a built-in market of joystick owning players leaving other games, Airwarrior etc. I have to wonder if the alternative games also use controllers as I remember one that did not.
:cheers:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Arlo on October 05, 2019, 06:39:21 PM
There's all kinds of joysticks at all kinds of cost:
Saamy owns a hotas. Why he doesn't want to use it is beyond me (unless he wants an excuse not to improve). The game can also accommodate a mouse and a game pad but just the thought of someone who claims to be a flight simmer that doesn't want a physical joystick is kinda, well, mind boggling. Its kinda like someone who wants to dogfight with a wii music accessory.
We're living in a civilized nearly perfect world. It doesn't have to be famine, wild animals eating your kids, or similar to qualify as problems.
Obviously everything is made up at this point, because we're discussing a theoretical new feature, not ab existing one. Depending on specific details of the implementation these conditions could change from hypothetical made up to real.
You may have access to a preview and can already see how thong work in detail, and judge what effect things have on the various currently existing use-caes?
You're worrying about hypothetical problems that are not likely to manifest and using 'cruel' to mean oppressive. Cruel requires malicious intent. That seems unlikely. So is the notion that a login will be oppressive.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 05, 2019, 07:05:03 PM
...I would be curious how many people with joysticks have the same discard rate....
If you want new "players" to have a better time than maybe having a pop driven default to taking off automatically in a Spitfire with flashing text suggestions like "press+ to increase throttle - to decrease" (or whatever it is) playing constantly until a prominent opt out opt in check box is checked. I think that would be better than a sequence of training.
I wonder how many people think it's a gambling site?
A nice aspect of basic training missions like take off and landing, is learning aerodynamics like the lift drag relationship in a controlled relaxed environment. Completing training missions seems like an easier accomplishment than finding success in the MA with simple throttle and flap tips. Not saying that's a bad idea but if we want people to stay longer, then some early personal success might help with that for people with no prior flight knowledge.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 05, 2019, 07:13:36 PM
You're worrying about hypothetical problems that are not likely to manifest and using 'cruel' to mean oppressive. Cruel requires malicious intent. That seems unlikely. So is the notion that a login will be oppressive.
Cruelty requires intent, unless it is a cruel winter. Weather doesn’t have intentions. Now, if it is a cruel summer all bets are off. That only requires Bananarama. :banana:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 05, 2019, 08:30:53 PM
early personal success for a new player is getting off the ground
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That borders on miracle status.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: hazmatt on October 06, 2019, 04:35:21 AM
Maybe I'm wrong but wouldn't it make more sense to market to people who want a challenge instead of trying to dumb it down to the level of the slowest kid in the class?
I remember back in the 90's when I started playing AW on Genie I saw an add that something to the effect of "Stop playing with yourself" "If you think your that good prove it. I spent a ton of money on a 486 cause my Amiga just didn't have the horsepower so I could prove it. Too bad I'm not nearly as good as I ustabee.
Just my 2cents.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 06, 2019, 07:46:03 AM
You're wrong. What do you think it being dumbed down?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: hazmatt on October 06, 2019, 10:15:46 PM
You're wrong. What do you think it being dumbed down?
Uh. I was saying the marketing toward people who are playing games that are instant action instant satisfaction and short attention spans.
I was saying that I think it would be a better idea to try to marked to hard core competitors and flight sim fans, people who would want the immersion of a flight sim and not an instant action short attention span arcade game.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe there are no players of this time to market to anymore. I for one have no interest in playing a game that is designed for somebody with the attention span of a goldfish.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 06, 2019, 10:50:17 PM
Uh. I was saying the marketing toward people who are playing games that are instant action instant satisfaction and short attention spans.
I don't see how giving people useful instruction on how to get up to speed on the game as quickly as possible is dumbing anything down.
Do you think DCS is a kiddie game? It has a quite extensive new player in-game training system.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 06, 2019, 11:25:54 PM
I saw over 140 on tonight. Was the biggest night I've seen in a while. The smaller more compact maps really bring in the best #s on the weekend. There were tons of fights all over the map tonight.
I think there is still a big chance we can get 180-200 in there with a few adjustments like A. Website front page B. New player control set up, C. More new compact maps.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 06, 2019, 11:26:53 PM
interactive player training is key here
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 07, 2019, 12:21:27 AM
Uh. I was saying the marketing toward people who are playing games that are instant action instant satisfaction and short attention spans.
I was saying that I think it would be a better idea to try to marked to hard core competitors and flight sim fans, people who would want the immersion of a flight sim and not an instant action short attention span arcade game.
Maybe I am wrong, maybe there are no players of this time to market to anymore. I for one have no interest in playing a game that is designed for somebody with the attention span of a goldfish.
As I said you're wrong. Making learning the game easier, to get a boost on the learning curve, doesn't change the game difficulty, it just makes it easier to start. There is nothing about marketing to the easy play demographic, HTC has WO:P for that.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 07, 2019, 12:24:10 AM
As I said you're wrong. Making learning the game easier, to get a boost on the learning curve, doesn't change the game difficulty, it just makes it easier to start. There is nothing about marketing to the easy play demographic, HTC has WO:P for that.
so screw the new guys, right?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Meatwad on October 07, 2019, 06:47:29 AM
At least to get new guys off the ground, have a small tutorial on using the auto takeoff function of just hitting E and turning the throttle to 100% without even touching the stick. Then once off the ground, have notification of raising gear if it isnt done automatically. Allow them to autoclimb and then get the feel of moving around
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: fd ski on October 07, 2019, 07:16:35 AM
if i might pitch in - add something to a new guy nick name ( * or something ) so that we can tell them. Many times i see a guy doing stupid stuff and don't know if he's a newb - and help him - or simply dumb ;) This way everyone on their side ( or someone killing them ) can tell they are dealing with a newb and help them out. Also, mic config should be mandatory for a new guy including quick tutorial.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Shuffler on October 07, 2019, 07:33:17 AM
Some people will hunt noobs to pad their score.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: save on October 07, 2019, 09:20:39 AM
Best help you can get is have someone to teach you basics talking with you in voice - you feel taken care of, and as you are making progress you feel good and that you have accomplished something.
You have regular bookings with that teacher - you will probably sign up.
Nothing replace someone who help you progress.
That *pilotname is not that bad actually, someone with good knowledge can help out.
I got my first kill in Warbirds 1997, trying to start my engine- some enemy plane augered 10 feet in front of me.
I could not find the key to start the engine... Everyone send a "WTG". on text screen I asked what a "WTG" was, and many replied "LOL" .... (what is "LOL"?) I did not dare to ask...
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 07, 2019, 09:58:48 AM
Best help you can get is have someone to teach you basics talking with you in voice - you feel taken care of, and as you are making progress you feel good and that you have accomplished something.
I don't disagree with that. The Aces High Training corps is an amazing asset. However, I don't see it being particularly useful to solve the problem at hand.
1. I think it is the wrong point in the player life-cycle. I think personal training is going to be more realistic for new players that have already made the decision to join Aces High, have already decided to commit a serious amount of time to the game and want to get fully up to speed. 65% of new accounts aren't staying 10 minutes. 75% aren't staying 30 min. I don't see them scheduling personal training before deleting the game.
2. I just don't think it is scalable. There are simply not enough trainers on duty 24/7 to handle a significant portion of these new players trying the game. An automated system is needed to try and get these newbies at least wheels up in that 10-30 minutes before they give up.
We've had a trainer corp for over a decade. I don't think it makes much of a dent in new player acquisition. It might, if you could get them past the first hour, much less a complete 2-week trial.
$0.02. CptTrips
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 07, 2019, 10:05:30 AM
It would be no different than now, I don't believe most players would be able to "hunt noobies" most don't now and it's pretty easy to see who's new on the roster.
Because 99% of players who would do that for score, don't have good scores LOL.
Natural instincts are the cause for most of the game play. Regardless of score, people will always vulch you landing. That's just the way it is.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Lusche on October 07, 2019, 01:57:19 PM
Playing AH for over a decade, and experience with other online games, some of which don'T have any kind of score like AH at all. Even in AH, much fewer pilots care for their score than commonly assumed. Score by itself is only a main motivation for a relatively small number of pilots.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: waystin2 on October 07, 2019, 02:02:42 PM
I will piggyback on this. I don't think they hunt noobs specifically for score padding, but they club a lot more baby seals in their streaks than they do vets. I am sure this is horribly discouraging for those that are not as settled into the game and may not have as much experience to draw upon when confronted with an aggressive pilot in a well flown aircraft. Most vet pilots will behave differently when they are confronted with pilots that are not noobs. I say most, as some will be aggressive no matter the circumstance.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Puma44 on October 07, 2019, 02:24:45 PM
Even in AH, much fewer pilots care for their score than commonly assumed. Score by itself is only a main motivation for a relatively small number of pilots.
Agree. Also being one who is in it for the fun and some semblance of reality, it is curious when a gang of 4 to 6 reds are desperately chasing a single green. It makes one wonder.
Not sure I could even find my score, and please, don’t anyone tell me how to.🥴
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 07, 2019, 02:47:34 PM
Agree. Also being one who is in it for the fun and some semblance of reality, it is curious when a gang of 4 to 6 reds are desperately chasing a single green. It makes one wonder.
Not sure I could even find my score, and please, don’t anyone tell me how to.🥴
The most fun I've had in years was that few days after all-seeing radar when we had free perk planes for a test Hitech was doing. Score did not matter nor count. People just flew all out. It was a BLAST.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: 1stpar3 on October 07, 2019, 03:59:23 PM
The most fun I've had in years was that few days after all-seeing radar when we had free perk planes for a test Hitech was doing. Score did not matter nor count. People just flew all out. It was a BLAST.
Was this Return of The Claw also?. Or was it another "special"day?. Yes, that was a FUN day. I dont think i have heard that much giggling and laughing, EVER. I honestly dont remember reading, nor receiving a single negative 200 text or PM. Score meant nothing, and EVERYONE was a HO :devil :rofl % 262s deacking verses my lil Wirby. FUN :rofl
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: The Fugitive on October 07, 2019, 04:12:22 PM
If only the friendlies can see the ID mark the only way you'd be "hunting newbs" would be if you were passing info to the other team and we all know THAT is frowned on.
Friendlies would know the newbs and be able to ask them strait out if they needed any help. Kinda like the old days when new guys were recruited into squads and trained up while making friends.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 07, 2019, 04:13:47 PM
I didn’t see the claw, but it was Jets and Tmepests and everything else galore. Nobody was running. Everyone was battling.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Shuffler on October 07, 2019, 04:43:15 PM
But do you think his experience was much different than the the 85% of new players that download the game and don't have a joystick or a clue, experience?
Watch it again and turn off the sound so you don't hear his annoying voice. I'll bet you a beer that is exactly the experience that most new players have with the game.
:salute
not really-for 1 thing in don't think he got on the help channel to ask for help. seems like he just popped into any vehicle and starting to mess with it. not bothering to ask for help.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 07, 2019, 05:19:37 PM
not really-for 1 thing in don't think he got on the help channel to ask for help. seems like he just popped into any vehicle and starting to mess with it. not bothering to ask for help.
Very few ask for help. They don't know how! :bhead
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 07, 2019, 05:21:09 PM
Shows the power of not keeping score. Stats should be private. Compete with yourself. The quality of fights would improve dramatically within a few days of that change.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 07, 2019, 05:29:18 PM
Deleted the wrong post by accident .
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 07, 2019, 05:36:00 PM
I doubt it. Everything you are seeing is natural instincts. Its more about planes being non perked than it was about score. People who gang don't get good scores. Generally people gang because they are desperate about getting a kill and shooting down the red at all cost. Most people who blame scoring dont really understand how score works.
No. People are afraid of what others say about their scores. In arenas where score is irrelevant the fights are always better. It's not instinct, it's EGO.
We are all aware of how score works. We also understand rulers and tape measures.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 07, 2019, 07:49:12 PM
See rule #14
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Arlo on October 07, 2019, 07:54:03 PM
People who fly too timidly and only gang (never counterpunch, never get down n dirty in turn fights, run when losing advantage, only fight when their side has the cap advantage) dont normally have the best scores.
I've never seen any one be afraid about what others think of their scores.
Heh. Oh yes you have. On occasion, I've even seen people use scores to support their contention that their opinion is more valuable than someone else's.
- oldman
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 07, 2019, 08:19:15 PM
Heh. Oh yes you have. On occasion, I've even seen people use scores to support their contention that their opinion is more valuable than someone else's.
- oldman
#BURN
:cheers:
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 07, 2019, 09:04:33 PM
At least to get new guys off the ground, have a small tutorial on using the auto takeoff function of just hitting E and turning the throttle to 100% without even touching the stick. Then once off the ground, have notification of raising gear if it isn't done automatically. Allow them to autoclimb and then get the feel of moving around
That's all covered in Hitech's in-game training videos that come in a new install. They're not perfect, but they get most of the job done for a determined player.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 07, 2019, 09:16:53 PM
That's all covered in Hitech's in-game training videos that come in a new install. They're not perfect, but they get most of the job done for a determined player.
They’re not sufficient, apparently. You shouldn’t need to watch a video.
An interactive overlay that gets someone started fast before their attention span is exceeded needs to be developed.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 07, 2019, 11:28:47 PM
That's all covered in Hitech's in-game training videos that come in a new install. They're not perfect, but they get most of the job done for a determined player.
You should not have to leave a game to learn a game.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Easyscor on October 08, 2019, 12:15:20 AM
You should not have to leave a game to learn a game.
You don't, the video's play in the arena message side window while you are in-game. When you move to the next location, by clicking on-line and even off-line, or the hanger, the plane etc. the video follows and the next segment starts. For me, it required a fresh install to see these, but as I said in an earlier post, my login+password did not interfere with seeing the videos.
My biggest complaints with some of the videos are the distraction of the music and engine sounds in the planes while trying to fly and listen at the same time, and the fact that the controller mapping overlay for the Oculus touch disappears. Which control handles gear and which flaps again? A toggle for reactivating the overlay would be useful, along with clarifying not to launch when first entering a plane until the lesson ends.
The video's play in both the standard and VR versions, and they can be disabled with checkboxes or by dismissing the arena message side window.
You've got to hand it to Hitech. He's attempted all the useful ideas presented over the years to capture new players. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean he hasn't listened and acted.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 08, 2019, 07:27:47 AM
See rule #4
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 08, 2019, 07:29:29 AM
Best help you can get is have someone to teach you basics talking with you in voice - you feel taken care of, and as you are making progress you feel good and that you have accomplished something.
You have regular bookings with that teacher - you will probably sign up.
Nothing replace someone who help you progress.
That *pilotname is not that bad actually, someone with good knowledge can help out.
I got my first kill in Warbirds 1997, trying to start my engine- some enemy plane augered 10 feet in front of me.
I could not find the key to start the engine... Everyone send a "WTG". on text screen I asked what a "WTG" was, and many replied "LOL" .... (what is "LOL"?) I did not dare to ask...
:rofl
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 08, 2019, 08:06:12 AM
I am considering requiring a Login ID to do anything in AH including offline play.
I.E. At game start you must log in/create an account. This would allow me to do things like force training missions on users and track their progress.
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
What are peoples thoughts.
HiTech
HiTech,
My initial thought is why? What problem or opportunity are you trying to address with this? You indicate that it would allow you to force training on users and track progress yet in other posts there is mention that the vast majority of people do not stay past the 10 minute mark. Not a lot of progress to track there!
My 2 cents:
yes, you should require a login to join the game
As a minimum you should be forced to set up basic controls - up, down, fast, slow, fire
This forced setup would preferably take place in a simulated environment - as per War Thunder iirc
NO controls should be configured by default IMO. I have reinstalled this game 3 times now and every time I have had a controller mash the fire command and could not find it until I set every control button to 'nothing' then started from scratch
As for other thoughts:
Fighter Ace had a 'noobs' arena where anyone could fly there but only ranks of Major and below could actually fire. Was good for teaching new guys IMO
Conversion of downloads to staying for even a few hours is the major issue. Do you have statistics on where they go in the time they are here? MA? MatchPlay? With all due respect MatchPlay is terrible and if that is the 10 minutes they are getting then no wonder they leave. B17's running rings around spitfires is not a good look.
If MA. Can you tell if they even take off? Do they even select planes or GVs or move bases? Data is key here.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2019, 09:06:58 AM
1. Clear all Mappings 2. Set all Mappings to Default
95% of the time the basic default mappings would allow someone to at least get up in the air and fly a bit and maybe shoot at something. I don't think we should give that up over edge cases. That way they could have at least a little fun before being forced to wade through the labyrinth of control mapping UI.
$0.02, CptTrips
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 10, 2019, 11:31:34 AM
Fighter Ace had a 'noobs' arena where anyone could fly there but only ranks of Major and below could actually fire. Was good for teaching new guys IMO
Conversion of downloads to staying for even a few hours is the major issue. Do you have statistics on where they go in the time they are here? MA? MatchPlay? With all due respect MatchPlay is terrible and if that is the 10 minutes they are getting then no wonder they leave. B17's running rings around spitfires is not a good look.
If MA. Can you tell if they even take off? Do they even select planes or GVs or move bases? Data is key here.
Could not agree more, especially the drones. They're RIDICULOUSLY over modeled. A new player should have SOME chance of success against a realistic opponent. (I am not advocating the offline drone merry-go-round.) This setup isn't even interesting to a vet. For a new player it's utterly futile.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: hitech on October 10, 2019, 11:50:10 AM
1. Clear all Mappings 2. Set all Mappings to Default
Been wanting to add #1, and also make a change with another button that only maps default but only one device at a time. Possibly check box so 1 device could also be cleared. Also how many of you know we ship custom mappings for 161 different devices?
HiTech
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 10, 2019, 12:20:18 PM
Been wanting to add #1, and also make a change with another button that only maps default but only one device at a time. Possibly check box so 1 device could also be cleared. Also how many of you know we ship custom mappings for 161 different devices?
HiTech
I didn't remember the exact number, but seeing mentions in perusing past release notes, I gathered it was extensive.
And for the vast majority of players it works well enough to get wheels up and play around. Then they can optimize and customize to their tastes.
The clear mappings button would allow Fess67 to quickly achieve what he wanted without forcing that blank slate on everyone else who would have been pretty fine with the device specific defaults.
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 10, 2019, 12:58:09 PM
Been wanting to add #1, and also make a change with another button that only maps default but only one device at a time. Possibly check box so 1 device could also be cleared. Also how many of you know we ship custom mappings for 161 different devices?
HiTech
Would it be possible to look at all devices at the same time and see what is currently mapped?
Edit: Never mind, that's already on the clipboard key commands list.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Mano on October 10, 2019, 02:43:55 PM
I did not read all 12 pages of this thread so maybe this question has been answered already. Will adding a log in requirement for offline play make the game more secure from hackers? I noticed that when I travel abroad the main web page and the forum are not accessible. If it will increase security I'm in.
:salute
I love this game. :)
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: hitech on October 10, 2019, 04:15:29 PM
I did not read all 12 pages of this thread so maybe this question has been answered already. Will adding a log in requirement for offline play make the game more secure from hackers? I noticed that when I travel abroad the main web page and the forum are not accessible. If it will increase security I'm in.
:salute
I love this game. :)
Where do you travel?
HiTech
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DaddyAce on October 10, 2019, 04:31:26 PM
I've had the same issue in parts of Thailand and in Malaysia, although I generally never play the game there but do sometimes like to keep up with things on the Forum, especially upcoming scenarios. Skuzzy once helped me get through in Malaysia when I had some friends there who were interested in seeing the game.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Shuffler on October 10, 2019, 04:38:18 PM
I've had the same issue in parts of Thailand and in Malaysia, although I generally never play the game there but do sometimes like to keep up with things on the Forum, especially upcoming scenarios. Skuzzy once helped me get through in Malaysia when I had some friends there who were interested in seeing the game.
He misses seeing my post.......
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: guncrasher on October 10, 2019, 04:54:28 PM
A feature stolen...err I mean taken from Air Warrior.
A good idea is still a good idea even when it's not your own.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 11, 2019, 12:57:10 AM
I also agree the Match Play Arena is a disaster and no use to veteran and new players alike. A lot of them come there. They don’t come back.
The Free For All area should be moved to the old (now inaccessible) furball lake as new players can reference the horizon more easily there. AI should attack one per human player ONLY and not break off or reassign if a new player comes in - this to flexibly support the emergent co-operative gameplay which often begins there.
AI airframes which cannot endure 3G should not be dogfighting. Similarly the AI should be constrained to the same turn and entropy-rates as human players. If a new player sees that, he will assume he is the limit when he cannot match those rates and become disillusioned. Worst I have heard comments that they cheat - which after all is correct, they are endorsed hackers of the flight-model. AI assignments should only make up numbers to always even.
The duelling queues should be removed and replaced with starting ‘gates’ allowing players to choose their opponents. Retain the random-position air-spawns.
Additionally there should be a pan-arena ticker tape, system announcement, live web-feed or other that there are people looking to duel. Right now, checking when you log in notwithstanding there is no way to know beyond logging out of your active arena and looking at the arena splash screen.
ELO should be removed as it was added to support a now abandoned feature and is as counterproductive as the AI - people log in, see a high ELO, they log out.
With the present arena disposition of AH it is unclear where the owner(s) think newer players should go? The empty TA? Steal the Sheep, are they to think AH is a WWI game? Even if they immediately buy a subscription the MA is now almost exclusively populated by highly seasoned vets, grinding out long-established and risk-averse gameplay. That’s only interesting to a small and now an increasingly smaller group…
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 11, 2019, 09:11:32 AM
Further thoughts: check that your tracking does not contravene data protection regulations in the EU. These apply to EU citizens regardless of where the data is processed and non-compliance invites fines.
Have you additionally thought of making a super compact demo version of Aces High retaining the standard flight model, perhaps with an analogue stall-limiter, a limited plane-set and a super-streamlined controller configuration which would simply run through the primary flight controls (with a graphic) and guns and ask at each step the user to operate that axis. Then have a number of air-spawned starting scenarios with dumbed-down AI fighters and bombers to have a little shoot at and see if they enjoy the flying experience as quickly as possible. Put in a couple of planes from each nation and obviously show off the famous ones which likely draw players by nation such as the P-51D, obviously.
The point being to streamline them into experiencing the flying and shooting with as minimum fuss as possible. Can even add some BFM exercises like that old Nintendo Pilot's Wings game (rings in the sky). Lots of games used to have demos anyway.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 11, 2019, 09:32:19 AM
... Have you additionally thought of making a super compact demo version of Aces High retaining the standard flight model, perhaps with an analogue stall-limiter, a limited plane-set ....
No. Hitech never thought of War Online: Pacific. Great idea.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 11, 2019, 11:03:57 AM
No. Hitech never thought of War Online: Pacific. Great idea.
Meh.
Well said, Shida. Many extremely valid points, particularly in regard to the Dueling Arena.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 11, 2019, 11:11:27 AM
The match play is a huge problem that is a detriment to the game. I could go on for years about it. The entire arena needs to be scrubbed and completely redone. It sort of pisses me off really. But I'm just a 15 year AH vet whose experience in AH fighter combat in these types of arenas doesn't really matter. So this will be my last post about it since it will probably not matter.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 11, 2019, 11:22:08 AM
You could make a specific wish in the Wishlist, have only fighters in match play and only one at a time until your ELO reaches a certain level. Keep it polite, skip the posturing, and make a reasonable argument.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 11, 2019, 12:07:59 PM
You could make a specific wish in the Wishlist, have only fighters in match play and only one at a time until your ELO reaches a certain level. Keep it polite, skip the posturing, and make a reasonable argument.
TBH I thought I had. But it appears those have only been comments. I did make a Fighter Bowl post one time in the GD, but nothing really came out of it. Perhaps I will then when I have some time to sit down and write it out.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 11, 2019, 12:42:59 PM
so, why not get rid of every arena except the MA, bring back the DA and try to staff the training arena 24/7?
Add an arena member count to the main website and edit the the forum style to accommodate the same information. It's SMF I believe so this shouldn't be a problem.
Add a very basic "hands on" overlay tutorial for new players as well as move the .help output from the chat buffer to a clipboard side panel that is always available as a listed item nested in the settings menu.
:salute
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Lusche on October 11, 2019, 01:03:12 PM
And people are supposed to just sit there for hours and hours in empty arena hoping someone stops by for some training?
That would be dedication. :salute
Not at all, Have a clipboard side bar that opens with the following information:
Welcome to the training arena!
The following trainers are online:
Trainer1: click here to request help/training
Trainer2: click here to request help/training
Trainer3: click here to request help/training
Trainer4: click here to request help/training
Note: Please allow a few minutes for the requested trainer to respond
The requested trainer will receive a notification that he is requested in the training arena.
In the event that the requested trainer goes off line the requesting individual will be added to a queue and the the remaining online trainers will receive the notification and then another notification stating which trainer went to the TA.
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: CptTrips on October 11, 2019, 01:52:32 PM
Not at all, Have a clipboard side bar that opens with the following information:
Welcome to the training arena!
That might work with a system for them to mark themselves available/unavailable like cab drivers. The good thing is you need a much lower level of trainer to at least help get a newbie up to speed, so a lot of guys would be qualified as a newbie "greeter" even if they aren't part of the high priesthood. ;)
So you are suggesting getting rid of AvA and WW1WF?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 11, 2019, 02:15:28 PM
TBH I thought I had. But it appears those have only been comments. I did make a Fighter Bowl post one time in the GD, but nothing really came out of it. Perhaps I will then when I have some time to sit down and write it out.
You can copy paste this one. :D
"Please adjust the AI in match play so you fight one bandit at a time and you only fight fighters. This will likely be more fun and more useful as training. Thank you. "
:aok
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 11, 2019, 02:25:18 PM
What do you think about this option? https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397974.0.html (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,397974.0.html)
Oh, and give me WWI tanks and ships and I'll put them in! :D
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 11, 2019, 02:43:11 PM
Note: Please allow a few minutes for the requested trainer to respond
The requested trainer will receive a notification that he is requested in the training arena.
In the event that the requested trainer goes off line the requesting individual will be added to a queue and the the remaining online trainers will receive the notification and then another notification stating which trainer went to the TA.
:salute
The reason we have appointments for training is because the trainers are volunteers, who like to play the game. Waiting to train somebody is a pointless waste of time. We have done it anyway just in case it helps someone.
There is no line of players waiting for training. That's not a problem that needs solving at this time.
... The good thing is you need a much lower level of trainer to at least help get a newbie up to speed, so a lot of guys would be qualified as a newbie "greeter" even if they aren't part of the high priesthood. ;) ...
We call those guys "players" not low level trainers. We appreciate their help. :aok
A trainer needs to understand what a trainee is trying to do, what they're actually doing, and what they need to do. And has to be able to explain it. You cover what's in the training material but the main thing is getting the trainee to understand the things that aren't intuitive like the lead turn, lift/drag curve, and A2A gunnery.
At the same time you help with the game you also represent HTC the business. I doubt HTC would want less qualified trainers.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: save on October 11, 2019, 03:16:59 PM
In Warbirds we had training schedules en Euro, and US time zone, we got a free trainers account,we we marked by wings, in my case it was =save=, and we got an extra account when we wanted fly incognito.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 11, 2019, 03:56:08 PM
Remember =Geff=? He used to fly in DOA, he put on aerobatic competitions in the Training Arena. You could fly in 2D or 3D back then. In 2D the smoke lasted longer. :airplane: I flew as FLS in AW, FA, and WB/DOA.
We can schedule training now for any time zone. Just not any time in any timezone. If we had enough interest we could do clinics too.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: save on October 11, 2019, 08:11:47 PM
Remember =Geff=? He used to fly in DOA, he put on aerobatic competitions in the Training Arena. You could fly in 2D or 3D back then. In 2D the smoke lasted longer. :airplane: I flew as FLS in AW, FA, and WB/DOA.
We can schedule training now for any time zone. Just not any time in any timezone. If we had enough interest we could do clinics too.
oh, yes he was a RL aerobatic pilot, he did a show for us at EuroCon a few years ago.
When Eurotrainers was established - most us had IRL flying experience or had aviation experience , =dobs= was our head trainer (he was a backseat F15 pilot) - =daff= was an aerobatic pilot, I flew taildraggers for 20 years , =olli= was a ppl, ==YT== was air traffic controller, and =wiz= was an retired RL German F104 pilot (he was in the same squad as Erich Hartmann post ww2, oooh , those storied he had :D ) and =webs=, later we added =vati=, =dhy==, and =flu= and =kuis=.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 11, 2019, 10:09:49 PM
Oh, he was a WSO. Cool.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 12, 2019, 12:07:56 AM
No, they should see in Training, WWI, MA in the first tab and AVA and custom arenas in their respective tabs. if they are premium or on their two week trial. After that, if they are not premium and not on their two week trial they should see: Training, WWI in the first tab and AVA and custom arenas in their own respective tabbed locations.
The reason we have appointments for training is because the trainers are volunteers, who like to play the game. Waiting to train somebody is a pointless waste of time. We have done it anyway just in case it helps someone.
There is no line of players waiting for training. That's not a problem that needs solving at this time.
Turns out, training is an issue that needs to be solved. People may not make appointments because this is a game and who makes appointments for game training? As CptTrips mentioned: That might work with a system for them to mark themselves available/unavailable like cab drivers., a system of marking yourself available to help/train would not hurt someones play time, as the trainer would mark themselves available or not available. It's value added for the new players, besides if you only want to train people once in a while and by appointment, why are you a trainer? To take on the role of a trainer, you are saying I will help and train the denizens of AH3 when they ask for help not when it's a convenience for you.
We call those guys "players" not low level trainers. We appreciate their help. :aok
If you are simply a player, then step away from the training role and let people in there that will be trainers above being a player.
A trainer needs to understand what a trainee is trying to do, what they're actually doing, and what they need to do. And has to be able to explain it. You cover what's in the training material but the main thing is getting the trainee to understand the things that aren't intuitive like the lead turn, lift/drag curve, and A2A gunnery.
At the same time you help with the game you also represent HTC the business. I doubt HTC would want less qualified trainers.
There are all levels of training that is needed. From the dude trying to get wheels up without auto pilot for the first time, to the dude trying to master bouncing bombers without dying.
Adding a "live roster" for trainers that are currently online will greatly increase the use of the training arena. There have been times when I first started that I popped in the TA for some help and simply listened to the crickets until I left and went back to the MA to get clubbed. It wasn't until I flew with the Chawks, the 91st that I learned some of the finer points to the style I played. The TA did absolutely nothing for me as trainers where never around when I logged in to the TA. Sure they may have been online in the MA or DA but I was none the wiser for getting their attention.
So yes, accessibility to the trainers is garbage in it's current setup and it is in need of an overhaul.
:salute
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 12, 2019, 12:39:15 AM
Adding a "live roster" for trainers that are currently online will greatly increase the use of the training arena. There have been times when I first started that I popped in the TA for some help and simply listened to the crickets until I left and went back to the MA to get clubbed. It wasn't until I flew with the Chawks, the 91st that I learned some of the finer points to the style I played. The TA did absolutely nothing for me as trainers where never around when I logged in to the TA. Sure they may have been online in the MA or DA but I was none the wiser for getting their attention.
So yes, accessibility to the trainers is garbage in it's current setup and it is in need of an overhaul.
:salute
You should have requested training. If there were trainers in another arena they were likely busy, and not waiting for you to call them. Your decision not to request an appointment isn't a training issue. Blaming the system for your behavior is not a reason to change it. We are however considering ways of making it easier to contact us.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ack-Ack on October 12, 2019, 12:50:41 AM
In Warbirds we had training schedules en Euro, and US time zone, we got a free trainers account,we we marked by wings, in my case it was =save=, and we got an extra account when we wanted fly incognito.
While the WB training system was good, the early Air Warrior Training Academy was far superior. It was a 6 week training course, with included syllabus and training manual (http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/air_warrior/awtaman.txt) that taught new players all aspects of the game, to how to play the game and how to fly/fight and a group of dedicated trainers. When new players finished the academy, there was a little graduation ceremony to give them a sense of accomplishment and they were more than ready to enter the main arenas and hold their own against the masses.
I've always thought that AH should have the same training system, it would go along way of helping to retain new players and greatly lessen the learning curve they face with the current system. Unfortunately, I think it would be difficult to implement with just volunteer trainers and you'd have to go the part time employee route to do it properly to make sure all time zones are covered sufficiently.
Title: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 12, 2019, 01:01:22 AM
You should have requested training. If there were trainers in another arena they were likely busy, and not waiting for you to call them. Your decision not to request an appointment isn't a training issue. Blaming the system for your behavior is not a reason to change it. We are however considering ways of making it easier to contact us.
It's an accessibility issue, not a behavioral issue. Why on earth would a new player leave the game, go to a website to schedule some sort of training? The odds of them coming back to the game is minimal.
many players don't have forum accounts and last I checked, creating a game ID has nothing to do with creating a forum ID.
So, once again, it's an accessibility issue not a behavioral issue. The system and the implementation of this system are and have been flawed since it's inception.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 07:21:31 AM
I believe your assumptions are flawed so we'll have to disagree about training. Many new players, and experienced players also, have contacted the trainers for training. They never complained about the difficulty.
I don't know why more people aren't requesting training. I believe that you said you didn't because you chose not to.
Maybe encouraging people to seek training instead of bashing something you never tried would be more helpful to new people.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 12, 2019, 07:30:49 AM
I believe your assumptions are flawed so we'll have to disagree about training. Many new players, and experienced players also, have contacted the trainers for training. They never complained about the difficulty.
I don't know why more people aren't requesting training. I believe that you said you didn't because you chose not to.
Maybe encouraging people to seek training instead of bashing something you never tried would be more helpful to new people.
Cause the TA is super busy... .
Leaving a game to learn a game is a serious flaw. If training can only be conducted by appointment, remove the TA from the list of arenas.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: TequilaChaser on October 12, 2019, 08:09:32 AM
While the WB training system was good, the early Air Warrior Training Academy was far superior. It was a 6 week training course, with included syllabus and training manual (http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/air_warrior/awtaman.txt) that taught new players all aspects of the game, to how to play the game and how to fly/fight and a group of dedicated trainers. When new players finished the academy, there was a little graduation ceremony to give them a sense of accomplishment and they were more than ready to enter the main arenas and hold their own against the masses.
I've always thought that AH should have the same training system, it would go along way of helping to retain new players and greatly lessen the learning curve they face with the current system. Unfortunately, I think it would be difficult to implement with just volunteer trainers and you'd have to go the part time employee route to do it properly to make sure all time zones are covered sufficiently.
Completely Agree
HT asked back in 2000 for the Trainers to get together and create a Training Academy for Aces High, yet it fell on deaf years until I decided to read every single threads/posts up until I accepted to volunteer to be a Trainer again after AW... So I tried to ressurect HT's wishes and tried to get other trainers on board.....and btw HiTech was going to pay those that got involved with the academy end of it... Out of all the trainers this game has had, only 3 of us gave interested in it in 2004, now jump ahead to 2012... Badboy and I tried to get the ball rolling again, jump to 2016: Badboy is back as a Trainer and him and I just about ready to go live, but watermelon hits the fan once again and Badboy leaves the game for good and I retired
So it is left up to the rest of all players regardless if you volunteer as a Trainer, CM or not to figure out what should be done...
While the WB training system was good, the early Air Warrior Training Academy was far superior. It was a 6 week training course, with included syllabus and training manual (http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/air_warrior/awtaman.txt) that taught new players all aspects of the game, to how to play the game and how to fly/fight and a group of dedicated trainers. When new players finished the academy, there was a little graduation ceremony to give them a sense of accomplishment and they were more than ready to enter the main arenas and hold their own against the masses.
I've always thought that AH should have the same training system, it would go along way of helping to retain new players and greatly lessen the learning curve they face with the current system. Unfortunately, I think it would be difficult to implement with just volunteer trainers and you'd have to go the part time employee route to do it properly to make sure all time zones are covered sufficiently.
Two big differences. The AW community was full of newbies and there was little information available on ACM. Now we have tremendous resources for self-learning but the community is mostly vets. An academy graduate would find less initial success these days.
I read the AH training academy thread almost 10 years ago, it assumes people want to go to school. I think most players want training to be more fun, less structured.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 12, 2019, 10:19:16 AM
They train far more than how to use the game. Getting interrupted with other people would not help at all.
PS All arenas are The Game.
The scope of training is irrelevant when a new user has to log out of the game, go to a website, create an account and then request a time for training. By this point you have lost the attention of the new user. A simple clipboard side panel showing which trainers are online and their status (away, busy, available) and allow for a link to PM a trainer to request training is all that would be needed to fix the accessibility to training.
Quote
Anyone can train in the TA at any time. People use it every day. Removing it would be a silly thoughtless idea.
Where is the flaw in leaving the game to learn the game? That's supposed to be self-evident? Sounds like you just make stuff up.
There is a massive flaw in a new player having to leave the game to learn how to play the game. Once that player has decided to sub than they will most likely look to youtube, google and maybe the forums to further their knowledge but they can't get there if training is not made available, ingame, upfront with as little hassle as possible.
so... .
This whole conversation is not really focused on veteran players or those that have been playing for a while. this all geared towards those that are on their 2 week free trial.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 12, 2019, 11:06:53 AM
The scope of training is irrelevant when a new user has to log out of the game, go to a website, create an account and then request a time for training. By this point you have lost the attention of the new user. A simple clipboard side panel showing which trainers are online and their status (away, busy, available) and allow for a link to PM a trainer to request training is all that would be needed to fix the accessibility to training.
There is a massive flaw in a new player having to leave the game to learn how to play the game. Once that player has decided to sub than they will most likely look to youtube, google and maybe the forums to further their knowledge but they can't get there if training is not made available, ingame, upfront with as little hassle as possible.
so... .
This whole conversation is not really focused on veteran players or those that have been playing for a while. this all geared towards those that are on their 2 week free trial.
Yes if someone is really lazy they will not find success in any game except those that have the ability to buy improvement (cheat codes). At some point the individual actually has to want to improve. You can't make people what they are not.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 12:19:27 PM
Ciaphas you're just repeating your opinion. That's fine but those aren't facts.
You wrote "Have you additionally thought of making a super compact demo version of Aces High retaining the standard flight model,..." then you added possible features. Hence basically WO:P. You may understand it differently.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 12, 2019, 12:48:55 PM
You wrote "Have you additionally thought of making a super compact demo version of Aces High retaining the standard flight model,..." then you added possible features. Hence basically WO:P. You may understand it differently.
And exactly as I said WO:P does not have AH's standard flight model - in the first instance - and is not at all what I suggested: a very quick, hassle-free way for a potential customer to experience AH's flight model and gunnery. Is it your position that WO:P has been, and continues to be, a good vector to stream potential players into Aces High?
Additionally my suggestion was not directed at you, nor do I believe any ideas prophered here have to meet with your approval (as you seem to think). You do seem extraordinarily averse to any kind of change. Perhaps you're right and everything should stay exactly as it is. What could possibly be the downside :)
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 12, 2019, 01:36:12 PM
Yes if someone is really lazy they will not find success in any game except those that have the ability to buy improvement (cheat codes). At some point the individual actually has to want to improve. You can't make people what they are not.
When someone logs into a game for the first few times, it is reasonable that they expect some sort of in game training to get started. If they can't even get veyond the very beginning stages of this game why would they stick around? Dale has stated that a ton of new accounts stay for something like 20 minutes and then they are never heard from again. coincidence?
Having trainers onboard are there to help ease every aspect of this game. To have them so inaccessible to new members is mind boggling. Yes, they are inaccessible to new members, especially those that buy off of steam and to those that don't want to have a presence on this BBS. As far as cheat code, I don't follow where you are going with that one. I suppose we could put someone out in left field to catch that one.
The fact that this game has a training corps should tell you something about the learning curve and the difficulties in staying above water for new accounts. Until a quick training overlay is accomplished (hands on training overlay) the training corps should step up and bring people up to speed. If you're to busy playing the game and can't be bothered to spend 5 - 10 minutes to spin someone up, should you really be a trainer? I mean it's not as if you are bombarded with training requests as the TA stays empty during the hours that I am online (weekends and some weekday mornings).
If as has been stated "everyone can train" then what is the value added of having a training corps to begin with?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 01:43:22 PM
And exactly as I said WO:P does not have AH's standard flight model - in the first instance - and is not at all what I suggested: a very quick, hassle-free way for a potential customer to experience AH's flight model and gunnery. Is it your position that WO:P has been, and continues to be, a good vector to stream potential players into Aces High?
Additionally my suggestion was not directed at you, nor do I believe any ideas prophered here have to meet with your approval (as you seem to think). You do seem extraordinarily averse to any kind of change. Perhaps you're right and everything should stay exactly as it is. What could possibly be the downside :)
Look at you projecting, getting defensive, making it personal again, as usual, and throwing in a little straw man to show us how clever you are. You can't just exchange ideas like a normal person. We have been discussing changes. I have never said everything should stay the same but you feel compelled to lie about that. I just don't accept everything that pops into someone's head as a good idea.
WO:P has the AH flight model with different settings.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 12, 2019, 02:56:12 PM
Look at you projecting, getting defensive, making it personal again, as usual, and throwing in a little straw man to show us how clever you are.
You might be right. No doubt you have your Ladybird Book of Online Psychology open on your desk as we speak. Who am I to argue? Oh well we all have our little foibles. At least I occasionally try to shake this place out of its endemic sleepiness which borders on self-destructive apathy.
You can't just exchange ideas like a normal person.
Normal I leave to other people and personally think it's a bit over-rated. It’s getting late in the day to idly discuss changes and at great length. What duration do you figure AH has left as a commercially viable entity at it’s present rate of decay? You're the official (only?) trainer. Tell us, how many new students have you had in the last six months? 24, 12, 6?
I just don't accept everything that pops into someone's head as a good idea.
Actually you don’t seem to accept anything as a good idea. You don't even seem to take any time to consider them, ask for more detail or frankly understand them either. You’re fully on a roll in this thread - the last several pages at least - trying to restore the status quo as fast as possible. The TA is fine, the scheduling for training is fine. Time has passed, for reasserting that what has worked will continue to work. A conservative approach is applicable in a stable environment. AH is in a flat spin.
There is no vector for new players. No new players = death of the game. How can you be so blind to this?
I am considering requiring a Login ID to do anything in AH including offline play.
I.E. At game start you must log in/create an account. This would allow me to do things like force training missions on users and track their progress.
I believe almost all games that have an online component now work that way correct?
What are peoples thoughts.
HiTech
@FLS & nrshida: Why don't you take your little pissing match elsewhere? It has nothing to do with the OP.
Coogan
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Lazerr on October 12, 2019, 03:51:14 PM
You guys act like the MA is something to be disired, like it used to be.
Fix the matchplay arena Delete field resupply, and score manned guns as something that matters Add a free planeset Adjust ENY
Problem solved.
Forgot to add.. 3 countries is perfect for 500plus players.. it will kill this game with 200 maxxx logging in nightly
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: rvflyer on October 12, 2019, 04:52:08 PM
:airplane:|>---<|=i agree that is the best solution. When I started this game the hardest part was learning how to set up controls, views and VOX. It took me at least three months of playing in the training arena to learn how to get things set in a way that worked. How to get the VOX set up and how each channel worked. I had no clue who i was talking to, while now it seems really simple, to a newbie it was a bit overwhelming. Instruction on the set up of each portion of the game is needed to get a newbie started. So a first time log in person should at least be directed to a section that helps them get set up, then maybe one month free after they have the game set up. If they stay a month they are most likely going to be hooked. Oh and make it easy for a newbie to jump in and ride with someone, I know it is available now but make it available on log in to a newb so they can see the action without getting slaughtered as a new player.
Agreed. But guiding the noobs through joystick setup, plane selection and load-out, auto takeoff, and how to do a lead turn wouldn't take too long. Then a quick video of someone doing that, and a link to the help section.
- oldman
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 05:18:49 PM
I read the AH training academy thread almost 10 years ago, it assumes people want to go to school. I think most players want training to be more fun, less structured.
While the course was structured, the training was fun and engaging. I went through it myself.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 12, 2019, 06:24:34 PM
The existing player base is diluted. Big maps. Multiple arenas. Three sides. Whatever you want to call it. It simply does not create momentum in the right direction.
That's the alligator closest to the boat. Period.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 06:36:17 PM
The existing player base is diluted. Big maps. Multiple arenas. Three sides. Whatever you want to call it. It simply does not create momentum in the right direction.
That's the alligator closest to the boat. Period.
The best thing we can do as players is get one new person to join and play nice with people.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FBKampfer on October 12, 2019, 06:48:11 PM
I see some people suggesting WoWP as similar to AH. This is true only in a topical sense, but targets a vastly different player base.
It is an arcade game, much like Ace Combat, with slightly different mechanics and a different coat of paint, but fundamentally the same core idea.
Aces High has more in common with simulators, strategy games such as HoI and certain MMO's such as Star Citizen and EVE.
Whereas the former is primarily composed of the after-work-warriors who log on for a few hours, stoned as hell, or becoming progressively more drunk, as part of their unwinding. It is played as supplement to, or in place of, CoD, Battlefield, etc.
The latter is more of the nitty gritty types, and despite a lack of mechanical or topical similarity, seems to have significant overlap in player base.
Hell literally the only other time I've heard AH even mentioned by another in-person person was through a conversation about Star Citizen and EVE.
WoT and WoWP players don't know who we are. Star Citizen players do. HoI players do. EVE players do.
From what I've gathered, many are former players.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: TequilaChaser on October 12, 2019, 06:58:10 PM
While the course was structured, the training was fun and engaging. I went through it myself.
HiTech when he played AW and helped/worked for AW (can't remember what he created? maybe the film viewer?<scratches head> was aware of the AWTA and WB's Training and AW's Training was basically identical with the Informal Scheduled Training times , 3 times a day in AW 3PM to 5 PM EST / 7PM to 9PM EST/ 11PM to 1AM EST daily during the week and on Saturdays 9 AM to 11AM EST... and we put on clinics and there was a Winter 1995 Lecture Series of the Trainers giving Lectures on different topics, then again in 2000 the 2000 AW Spring Lecture Series, which was held on the gamestorm whiteboard w/ Slides Lounge ( man times had chnged in those short 5 years, it went from 95 was on a bbs, similae to mIRC text chat, to having actual diagrams, pics, Slides, etc and a Stage and audience )
HiTech knows that training is important, is why he had asked for it right after AH went live in 2000.... and is why he wants to force training to new players to log the sucess of it.... I think HT is on the right track..... no pun intended toward FLS, but the Trainer ( any Trainer ) has to be commited to the program, like a Training Academy to see it through....similar to like going through Boot camp or trying out for any tpe of Sports where you get cut if you don't make the grade....many people drop out of Boot camp in all Branches of service because they aren't able to withstand the training.....only thing is in Aces high, it wouldn't be that harsh, because the idea is to get everyone to pass the course
As for being an Instructor, teacher, trainer, etc... it takes a certian type of person to be able to pass along what needs to be learned in a manner that all others can understand it, because everyone is different, and it is up to that Instructor/teacher/Trainer to pick up on that which is working or not and make the necessary adjustments or change in the way they are presenting and teaching the material..so that each and every student understands and accomplishes the goal....
I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know AKAK
TC
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 07:10:47 PM
I see some people suggesting WoWP as similar to AH.
War Online:Pacific is HTC's other game. I call it WO:P. Sorry for any confusion. :salute
If you haven't tried it give it a shot, it's free and fun. https://www.waronline.com/
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FESS67 on October 12, 2019, 07:11:11 PM
Thinking about the posts postulating why new guy do not stay. Here are another 2 that I could never get my head around.
Default FOV at 90. I recommend you try it for a while. It is virtually impossible to compete. Imagine how it must be like for a new guy.
Throttle will not work on first launch. You have to pull back on the throttle first then it works. Again, the first impression is 'my controller does not work"
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 07:35:52 PM
If the default view is wider the complaint is that the other planes are too small and you can't read the instruments.
The solution is make it adjustable. You may disagree about the optimal setting. The default was 80 for a bit. I used to like 120. I can fly with 90 but 80 felt cramped.
I never noticed a throttle problem. Maybe because I pull the throttle back to start the engine.
I think the new player's reaction will be to try the throttle again. That seems like pretty normal behavior, for example people clicking repeatedly on something as it continues to not respond.
If they just set up their throttle they should be all set. The next time they try it if it doesn't work they'll remember it worked before. What will they do next? Move it one more time or log off?
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FESS67 on October 12, 2019, 07:43:04 PM
I think the new player's reaction will be to try the throttle again. That seems like pretty normal behavior, for example people clicking repeatedly on something as it continues to not respond.
You are correct, that is likely the reaction. HOWEVER, the first impression is 'it does not work' First impressions are golden. Make enough 'it is broke' impressions in the first 10 minutes and yes, they will simply log off and not come back. I am not saying that is the root cause however what we do know is they are only lasting 10 minutes. Maybe, just maybe things like this are not helping.
<addition to post> I logged on last night to have a look. I am greeted with a dark view of the tower, then the screen turns white, hangs for a second or 2 and then the clipboard appears with some information about an event. Horrible horrible introduction to a game. It just looks so bad. My first impression of the game is that it is clunky and unfinished. We know that is not the case however that is the impression.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
My experience is different. The game loads fast and looks good. That may be why we have different opinions. :aok
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 12, 2019, 08:40:02 PM
The best thing we can do as players is get one new person to join and play nice with people.
Tried and failed.
My own brother even. He's over at War Blunder and won't come back here.
Hitech is going to have to make some changes to generate enough action to make the people we manage to bring stick around. You're asking people to board a ship that's taking on water. We need to stop the leaks first.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 12, 2019, 08:41:07 PM
Thinking about the posts postulating why new guy do not stay. Here are another 2 that I could never get my head around.
Default FOV at 90. I recommend you try it for a while. It is virtually impossible to compete. Imagine how it must be like for a new guy.
Throttle will not work on first launch. You have to pull back on the throttle first then it works. Again, the first impression is 'my controller does not work"
I agree the latter was not a good change. Throttle should slave to its actual position if anything (other than full like before, which was fine).
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 08:58:09 PM
I'll just take a wild guess that your experience is the correct one. :D
Correct has nothing to do with it. The word you must learn is TYPICAL.
The fact is you see nothing but butterflies and rainbows. Others see nothing but doom and gloom. The average new player lands somewhere between those two perspectives.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: nrshida on October 12, 2019, 10:10:17 PM
Rule 4
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 12, 2019, 10:14:46 PM
Rule 4
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FESS67 on October 12, 2019, 10:16:59 PM
Rule 4
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: DmonSlyr on October 12, 2019, 10:18:15 PM
Thinking about the posts postulating why new guy do not stay. Here are another 2 that I could never get my head around.
Default FOV at 90. I recommend you try it for a while. It is virtually impossible to compete. Imagine how it must be like for a new guy.
Throttle will not work on first launch. You have to pull back on the throttle first then it works. Again, the first impression is 'my controller does not work"
Agreed. Field of view 90 is horrible. It needs to be 106 at least. No way a new player would be able to have great SA with that. Starting 3 inches from the gunsight isn't a good position for SA. This would be a drastic change for the better. People need to see that awesome cockpit too.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 12, 2019, 10:22:30 PM
Agreed. Field of view 90 is horrible. It needs to be 106 at least. No way a new player would be able to have great SA with that. Starting 3 inches from the gunsight isn't a good position for SA. This would be a drastic change for the better. People need to see that awesome cockpit too.
It will also help gunnery as far as leading is concerned.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 12, 2019, 10:26:59 PM
I'm sorry your own brother won't play with you. I can see why you blame the game now.
Kidding. :D
My point was succeed with one new person, not fail. Keep trying. :aok
Show of hands. How many have seen success with this method?
We could each land five players and not approach anywhere near the number who take a look at the game and leave. Return on investment. Work smarter not harder. Your idea is only a piece of the overall strategy, and it will not bear much fruit, particularly in comparison to the potential of grabbing people who join on their own.
My brother will gladly play aerial combat games with me, just not this one.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 12, 2019, 11:03:04 PM
There are things HTC can do and there are things players can do. You don't have to find a new player tomorrow. Just keep it in mind. It doesn't have to solve every problem, it just adds somebody to play with.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Shuffler on October 12, 2019, 11:22:52 PM
If this game was anything like those other games..... many of us would not be here.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FESS67 on October 12, 2019, 11:25:46 PM
If this game was anything like those other games..... many of us would not be here.
There are things those games do better than this one. Hitech needs to tweak this one to nullify that advantage.
Those games provide massive action first and foremost. Our players are spread awfully thin--three ways across some massive maps. Not good. We also seem intent on reinforcing the idea that our arenas are empty. Time to shift that perception.
And then there's the issue of players being unable to do anything at all.
Focus the action to retain the player base you have now, then add some things to make it far easier to figure out how to get the crate off the ground and to employ weapons.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 12, 2019, 11:36:00 PM
The best thing we can do as players is get one new person to join and play nice with people.
I have never come across a more closed, aggressive, militant group on a forum, or in game as the AH crowd. A new player, in almost every case, is greeted by getting repeatedly and easily killed to pad someone's score.
They see vitriolic exchanges constantly on open channel. They see no training options, no assistance.
This has always been the case,
Now, the potential new player sees all this, plus minimal numbers of predominantly insular players, all five of whom are doing their own thing.
An AI system, which could potentially be a good draw, and excellent training facility, which has 6g capable B29's with a turn rate and radius equalling the Spit they are invariably flying.
Then they see the 90's graphics, and the fact all around are options such as IL2 and DCS
Seriously, why would anyone, who stumbles onto AH today, find any compelling reasons to stay??
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Kingpin on October 13, 2019, 03:40:52 AM
Many new players, and experienced players also, have contacted the trainers for training. They never complained about the difficulty.
Oh, yes they have. I heard it. I even said it. Some of my first posts in the game were about that issue. Several of my posts and discussions here since, as both a player and a trainer, have been about this.
Aces High has an excellent training staff and many helpful players in the TA. An hour with a trainer can still be one of the most valuable hours ever spent in game. However, the problem of retaining brand new players is not best solved in or by the Training Arena.
In my opinion, a huge improvement would be providing a simpler, more intuitive, and more modern interface with guided instruction so new players can successfully:
a) set up and operate their controllers b) fly or drive something and c) shoot something
all on their own, all in the first 10 minutes, without exiting the game... before they leave permanently for something else. That would be a start.
I hope that is the direction of HiTech's post here.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 13, 2019, 04:23:15 AM
Many players never have a chance to complain because they don't know how to communicate. They're stuck on the runway firing their guns in the air.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 13, 2019, 04:24:18 AM
I have never come across a more closed, aggressive, militant group on a forum, or in game as the AH crowd. A new player, in almost every case, is greeted by getting repeatedly and easily killed to pad someone's score.
They see vitriolic exchanges constantly on open channel. They see no training options, no assistance.
This has always been the case,
Now, the potential new player sees all this, plus minimal numbers of predominantly insular players, all five of whom are doing their own thing.
An AI system, which could potentially be a good draw, and excellent training facility, which has 6g capable B29's with a turn rate and radius equalling the Spit they are invariably flying.
Then they see the 90's graphics, and the fact all around are options such as IL2 and DCS
Seriously, why would anyone, who stumbles onto AH today, find any compelling reasons to stay??
Don't hold anything back, bruh. Lol.
Some good points here.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: save on October 13, 2019, 08:07:00 AM
In Warbirds3 we had a "page a trainer" button. At that time we had enough trainers at Euro/US TZ to help out most of the times.
Soemthing to consider would be to get a trainer schedule popup (if any) or mark the student with a *pilot so someone with knowledge can pick him/her up and help.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 13, 2019, 08:21:26 AM
In Warbirds3 we had a "page a trainer" button. At that time we had enough trainers at Euro/US TZ to help out most of the times.
Soemthing to consider would be to get a trainer schedule popup (if any) or mark the student with a *pilot so someone with knowledge can pick him/her up and help.
Turns out, trainers are by appointment only
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2019, 09:37:09 AM
Oh, yes they have. I heard it. I even said it. Some of my first posts in the game were about that issue. Several of my posts and discussions here since, as both a player and a trainer, have been about this.
You're talking about the difficulty of posting a training request on the forum? I don't recall that. Did you think I was referring to some other difficulty?
Edit: I checked your first posts. In 2010 in AHII you tried to use a Trainer's email that was inactive. Sorry about that. I don't consider that a current problem. You were able to communicate without difficulty using the forum.
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2019, 09:44:17 AM
... Seriously, why would anyone, who stumbles onto AH today, find any compelling reasons to stay??
Same reasons we all did. Best flight model, best controller setup, huge aircraft selection, huge maps, small maps, good community, frequent updates, responsive management, the best VR experience flight sim, now with free arenas, and the scenarios. Nobody else can do scenarios like AH.
Edit: And free training. :aok
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Ciaphas on October 13, 2019, 10:26:44 AM
as long as you make an appointment first
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: FLS on October 13, 2019, 10:30:40 AM
Short wait times!
We'd only need 360 trainers to staff the TA 24/7. :rofl
Unless we want to give more than one lesson at a time. Then we'd need more. :old: We could do it with less people by paying them. :D
Title: Re: Thoughts.
Post by: Vraciu on October 13, 2019, 10:49:22 AM