109 help (watch this film)

[Krusty]

Right Click, save as...

As you can see, I suck arse at flying 109s. ASIDE from the massive nose bounce problem I've been having, here's the question:

I'm using spiral left climb a lot in this fight. It's a move I use if I am defensive and have no way of reversing. Now, OTHER 109 pilots, skilled ones, ones that know anything at all, know how to reverse so that I can get guns to bear on the target somehow. I've got alt. I have speed some times. I have a superior position above the target and to its port front quarter.

***I just can't ever get from there to guns lock!***

So the question is: Once in this damnable but vital spiral climb, how the hell do I ever attack? I can only climb so high (as you see, we top out about 22k), and I need step by step instructions on what to do, I tried extending and remerging. No good. Got locked in rolling scissors, stalled out, died. I tried chopping throttle and diving in on the target, but low and slow as it is it STILL manages to turn on me before I'm halway facing it.

Please help!

And when you give the help? Please use small words. I'm serious.

[Vudak]

I assume you're using this manuever when there's a ton of enemies around, which will keep you alive for awhile.

What I do, or try to do, is basically keep in a tight spiral climb (I find that a notch of flaps and some rudder works pretty well) and wait for your enemies to try and shoot you.  It makes for a pretty dicey shot for them at stall speed, and there's a good chance they'll stall out attempting it.  Then you'd fall over and attack the one you roped, which is hopefully the highest enemy.

Repeat the process until you've evened the odds a bit, or are picked by a higher bogie.

[Krusty]

The manuver works by denying the enemy a shot. You don't let them shoot and stall out, you literally outclimb and outturn them while they struggle below you. It's much safer to deny them a shot than to let them shoot you and hope they stall out.


The problem is the reversal, making it so that you can actually shoot back at them (kinda hard to do unless you got a MG151/20 sticking out yer arse )

[Vudak]

Originally posted by Krusty
The manuver works by denying the enemy a shot. You don't let them shoot and stall out, you literally outclimb and outturn them while they struggle below you. It's much safer to deny them a shot than to let them shoot you and hope they stall out.

True its much safer to completely deny them a shot, but when you time it just right and by their going for the shot they stall, you have a great situation.

Looking at the film, you can make the climb much tighter, at a much lower airspeed - you're turning over when you're both around 150ish...  That gives him enough E to manuever, you want to drain him dry before you flip, if he's so accomodating.

109s can get really squirrely at low speeds, sure, but the edge is abit slower.

[Krusty]

Well my IAS is about 100 even (we're 20k up, don't forget!), which is about as far as I can push a 109 in a spiral climb. Any slower and the climb rate drops drastically (allowing them to catch you).

If an enemy gives up or just plain stalls out below me I can wing over and follow them down. But if we're both just barely staying up I have no clue what I should do. Suggestions?

[Schutt]

I have the same problem. I know, you asked for a solution, but ill tell you my thoughts mybe they help.

For me its in a P38, but basically the same. Doing a spiral climb i get above the enemy, when i dive down then i get tangled in a turn fight.

Two alternatives that i see, but couldnt get to work.

1. Stay above him till he falls, then build on a position on his six from above. I think my mistake is diving down, need to stay above him till the position is good.

2. Let him come closer. Need him to be so close below me that he tries to shoot and then stalls. This might be done with cutting throttle a bit so the distance is actually less.

[Krusty]

Well I usually can't let them get closer. I get nailed in this move repeatedly at about 400d or so. They always seem to have enough nose up to shoot (and sometimes just spray and spray) without stalling.

[zmeg]

The Tiffy was able to pick up it's nose for a shot without too much trouble, what it couldn't do was roll, that's why you got so much seperation every time you dove under me. Changing the direction of your spiral would have done me in most likely. On the second fight I was very low on fuel 30 seconds after shooting you I ran out. Lucky I had all that alt, was a long glide back to base.

[Krusty]

Zmeg, I couldn't change direction. While it is a benefit that the 109 can climb like that to the left, it cannot do so very well to the *right*. Too much torque (especially at low speeds)

[BlauK]

Krusty, you simply need enough vertical separation before yuo engage the enemy from your spiral climb.

One option to try if there is not enough separation is a fake attack which you dont even try to carry till the end, just begin it and then continue again with spiral climb. That may cause the enemy to lose his ability to follow effectively and then you have the separation.

Another possibility is to try reversing the direction of the spiral climb at some point after a slight dive to gain some more speed. And this can also be combined with the preciding fake attack.

When yuo get the separation, dont blow it all in one fast atack and become the "chasee" again. Work the enemy below you and carry out the attack all the way to the end only when you see how he evades or when he has made a bad move.

I hope some of this was helpful

[Krusty]

Hrm.. I'll have to think about that, BlauK.

[humble]

I'll give you two options that tend to work well for me....I usually tend to use them togeather but you dont have to...

1st I usually rev my spiral climb to the right...yes your fighting your "torque" but so is he....the 109 has the best rudder authority in the game....use it. (obviously tiffie yak etc are opposite)....

2nd I WANT the other guy to take the shot...95% of the guys in the game stop flying once they start shooting. The key is to FLATTEN OUT the spiral into a fairly tight almost flat turn at stall...the mistake is in continueing to climb and allowing the guy to tailstand and spray and pray...the flat turn is a bit wider and he needs to pull the nose around trying to follow you...and he will stall out...since your almost flat with flaps popped rolling over is easier then when your "flipping" from nose up...