Capitalism works.

[Dowding]

   

Unfortunately Mietla, after having been born in Poland and lived under that system you are simply not as qualified as Dowding to comment on the benefits or problems of socialism/communism.

Where the shreck does this come from? Putting words in my mouth, Toad. I never said that I was more qualified than mietla to talk about communism. I disagree with some of his ideas, and he disagrees with mine - got a problem with that, mate?

But I AM qualified to talk about socialism and government, thankyou, - socialism has been in and around British politics for over a century, but we do not call each other comrade in the UK. Mietla lived under a communist government that called itself socialist. Communism did not redistribute the wealth, it concentrated it within the party faithful or channeled it into the arms race.

'We are all equal, comrade, but some of us are more equal than others.' THAT was what soviet communism was about, my friend. That is NOT a socialist ideal, and to claim that it is to show great ignorance, IMHO.

Mietla - the points you make show the difference between our countries, both historically and currently. 'Vive la difference' can have many uses, eh?  

I think its best to agree to disagree on the points you make, except one. How would you have solved the race problems in the 60's without a central government? The problem was not created by the central government (I don't understant the race 'baiter' comment) and surely the situation couldn't have continued as it was? The local government wasn't solving the problem, or even trying to if you look at the local law enforcement at that time. The police had some responsibility for enforcing segregation.


[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-26-2000).]

[Toad]

Chill, Dowding.

I put NO words in your mouth.

That is an observation, a judgement, an evaluation on my part.

Obviously it was a "jab", meant to be a bit humorous.

Sorry if you're so tender.

[Dowding]

Use smileys for shrecks sake then - how else am I to judge how you mean something, considering our experiences in the 'other' discussion?

Besides, I'm used to being on the defensive around here.  

[Maverick]

And you SHOULD be too. Dad gumed liberal socialist Brit!    

Mav  

[mietla]

 

Originally posted by StSanta:
Claiming communism and socialism is the same is a claim of an idjit, pure and simple.

So, where does the socialism stop and the communism begin?

Engage my arguments not me personally, if you please. BTW, what's an idjit?

Or someone full of resentment acting on feelings.
[/b]

Try it for 30 years, and then come back (if you still have a keyboard to type on). We'll talk then.

When you make such a claim, you have to take in account the full range of definitions, and socialism has definitions that differ from communism.
[/b]

You can stick your definitions, I'm not interested in you reading books out loud. You see, Bierut, Gomulka, Gierek and the rest of them did not read your book, so they did not know when to stop.

What I'm talking about is the real life, like feeding your kids, getting a job, finding a place to live, being rewarded for your efforts, being able to speak your mind etc.

Dowding,
I have no problem with you having a different point of you. I actually find it interesting to be able to exchange arguments with others. That is why I'm here on this BB.

Unfortunately, very few people can attack other side's aguments as oppose to opponent himself. I think you can (althought called me a racist once).

[funked]

The drug wouldn't exist without the drug company that was created by the system that makes the drug unavailable to the people to need it.

[StSanta]

Toad:

I DON'T!

Death to all governments! Anarchy ANARCHY!  

Naw, seriously, there are functions that are best handled by a government rather than a for-profit organisation. But those do not include say 60% of what I deal with on my spare time, like deciding whether I can dive on a German torpedo boat or not based on "my own personal safety".

------------------
StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"

[Dowding]

Hehehe Mav,     - someone has to be. Thanks for the compliment!

Mietla, np but I called you racist in error (quite stupidly as well), if you remember, and I said sorry. I'm sorry again if you want   .

As I have said before, Britain has had socialism within government and also as a political force out of it for over a century - it hasn't turned into communism or revolution of any kind, has it?

I'm not entirely sure the basic research that discovered the drug was done by the company - it's possible it was done by an individual or research group (or maybe it was a by-product of other research), and then the company patented it. Either way, the issue is that we have this knowledge and drug, yet because of market forces, its not getting to the people who need it.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-27-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 09-27-2000).]

[mietla]

 

Originally posted by Dowding:
Mietla, np but I called you racist in error (quite stupidly as well), if you remember, and I said sorry. I'm sorry again if you want     .

No problem. As I said above, I like you as a person and I enjoy an exchange with you. We clearly have a fundamental disagreement, but to me it is more of the reason to talk (as oppose to the reson to insult each other and quit talking).

 

As I have said before, Britain has had socialism within government and also as a political force out of it for over a century - it hasn't turned into communism or revolution of any kind, has it?
[/b]

I don't know enough about GB to deny or question that. And obviously my views are influenced by my life's experience (try kicking a dog for 30 dog years, and see whether he is still friendly), but they are not defined by them. My view point has not changed since I was 16, although it might have become more extreme.

I've always believed (and still do), that the social system should be taylored to the "ideal", "normal" citizen. In order for the society to survive, an "average" citizen has to be self-suficient and independent. He can't rely on the government to provide him with anything.

Now, obviously in a real society there is no "average" guy, some are more self-reliant, some less. And some of us have to depend on the rest to provide for them even basic necesities.

My point is, that those who are not self-reliant are an exception, and should be treated as such. Selt-reliance and productivity should be rewarded, so everybody strives for them. It is simply an incentive to work hard and better your life. The government should stay out of it. The government should neither punish the achievers, not reward them. They (the achievers) can reward themselves. At the same time the government should neither punish not reward the losers, Again, they punish themselves.

Mind you that I'm talking about the goverment, an institution that has an ultimate power over you and your life.

Having said that, I do believe that people should help each other. It is in a best interest of all of us. But by "help" I don't mean giving away free money, with no strings attached, so the loser can continue to be loser at my expense. I mean help them to become achievers, so they can stand on their own feet.

All help has to be private, voluntary, and the giver has every right to attach any strings he want. He can also terminate the help if he feels like it.

I believe that it is inevitable (and beneficial), that there is a social/economical ladder. It compels people to climb up, but it also exposes them to the risk of falling down.

That's life.



[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 09-27-2000).]