Author Topic: Sign of the time.....  (Read 910 times)

Offline Toad

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Sign of the time.....
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2001, 01:00:00 PM »
I'd say that a lot of what this country is/has become is based on the beliefs and ideas of those old dudes that wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Take TJ for example....


"The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg . . . . Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error."

Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.

Benjamin Franklin's religious beliefs? Six months before his death in 1790, Franklin summed up his religious creed in a letter to Ezra Stiles:

"I believe in one God, creator of the Universe. That he governs it in his providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable service we can render to Him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever Sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them tous, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend that it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy muself with it now, when expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble.

I shall only add, respecting myself, that, having experienced the Goodness of that Being in conducting me prosperously thro' a long life, I have no doubt of its Continuance in the next, though without the smallest Conceit of meriting such Goodness."

John Adams?

"We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions ... shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power ... we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society."
-- letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785, quoted from Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom (1991)

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"
-- letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816


So, to me... Religious Tolerance was a key ingredient.  There's also clearly some warning or suspicion of what a lack of tolerance brings.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKSWulfe

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Sign of the time.....
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2001, 06:52:00 PM »
No Deez, I am negative towards you because everytime I read something from you I am absolutely astonished you made it this far in life without being admitted to a nut house.
-SW

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2001, 07:18:00 PM »
Toad is not someone that you want to bicker with if you dont know what your talking about..
<S>

Offline Toad

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« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2001, 06:58:00 PM »
Thx Pongo.

I know we've "crossed keyboards" a few times and don't always agree but you are also one of the ones that can and do present well-reasoned and supported arguments.

<S>

BTW, once you wrote something about us Americans that I should have clipped. It was poetry. Something to the effect of what we have given when we didn't have too.

I've searched for that a few times since, without luck.

Twas beautiful. Wish I could find it. Salute for that one too.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Wingnut_0

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Sign of the time.....
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2001, 08:13:00 PM »
You can read any words that you want from the founding father and clearly read they all had varying beliefs and ideals.  Yet they made it clear that one sects views should not hold supreme rule over governing bodies, lest you have a protestant rule of terror as in England.

Jefferson has said many a time that this country was not a "Christian" Nation.  The Pledge of Alligiance was changed without the authors approval when it added, "Under God" to it.  I believe it was near 1923 or so when Congress gave the Pledge credence after it appeared many years before in a Reader's Digest book.

It wasn't until the 1950's that the Knights of Columbus talked the "Godless" communist fearing leaders of America to drop "E Pluribus Unim" from the country's major motto and enlist the "In God we Trust" motto.

You may feel free to believe in what ever god u wish, but do NOT think that everyone in this country of FREE WORSHIP should only be free to worship ur beliefs.  I will not let any man, woman or child infringe on my beliefs, nor will I allow them to infringe upon any that wish it not.

This Nation is NOT an Xian nation, and the day it becomes one in government rule is the day it will not resemble a Democracy any longer.

When it comes to prayer in school, miko said it best.  I haven't met 1 person if it'd be ok for someone of another religion to lead a prayer to their kids, say yes, it'd be ok.  Ppl's children wouldn't need prayer in school if they'd friggin study more.

Offline LtHans

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« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2001, 08:21:00 PM »
Quote
me being vehemently anti-semite

Uh, I think you goofed here, Swulfe.  Anti-semite means Anti-Jew.  AKA Nazi or just plain racist.  You want all Jews to go away or some such.

Like I said, I think you meant the opposite, and didn't know what the words mean in English.

Hans.

Offline Cabby44

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« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2001, 08:56:00 PM »
Quote:

"I will not let any man, woman or child infringe on my beliefs, nor will I allow them to infringe upon any that wish it not."

I agree, except for the "child" part.  I don't feel any particular threat from a child.  And i will say or write "God Bless America" anywhere, anytime i choose to do so.  If you don't like it, too bad.  

BTW, "Xian" means what?  I don't read Chinese.  Certainly, a freedom-loving, enlightened fellow like yourself didn't mean to insult anyone's particular Religion now, did you??

Cabby

Offline Wingnut_0

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« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2001, 11:28:00 PM »
I didn't feel like spelling Christian so phonics works for me.

  :)

By child I mean teenager mostly.  I can think of one particular case where a teenage girl killed herself because of verbal and physical abuse from her peers because of her beliefs.  Yet no school official would raise their voice in defense of her....

Last year I also went to a local school to hammer the school officials because of the way a friends daughter was getting treated at school.  And I'm not just talking about a few name calling incidents either.

[ 10-14-2001: Message edited by: Wingnut_0 ]

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2001, 10:16:00 AM »
Yeah I did not mean that Hans.

I guess it's anti-semetic? Whatever the word is for religious.. I forget.
-SW

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2001, 02:31:00 PM »
Toad has quite eloquently pointed out that the USA isn't a Christian theocracy. I'll add some more:

Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."


One MUST take into account just what the Church Of England was like - these were the nice Christian dudes he is talking about. they weren't very pleasant at all.

John Adams:

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:

"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Pretty clear.

Mr Thomas Paine:

"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."


Wow. Decidedly against the bible, this one.

James Madison:

"Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

The Founding Fathers were VERY conscious about setting the US up so that it would NOT be a Christian state. That there's a large and widespread misconception out there is regrettable, but at least it's possible to disprove it.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2001, 02:41:00 PM »
Come to the dark side Santa.

muhahahahhahaha!

 ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Serapis

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Sign of the time.....
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »
I have also read that Church attendance records show that the early Americans weren't particularly more religious than Americans today -- though you could still burn the occasional witch without much trouble from the community   :)

Charon

This book covers a lot of the mythology that is preached as gospel today:I Love Paule Revere, Whether He Rode or Not

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Charon ]