Losing Sight

[Lusche]

Originally posted by Emu
Anyway, this is just a suggestion... I am sure some TrackIR users will disagree with me

 

They will

But when it comes to TIR, it's more about personal preference than with any other piece of equipment....

[HomeBoy]

I really don't think TIR has anything to do with this.  I flew for ten years using the hat viewer and now use TIR.  Once you get set up properly for TIR, it's just as easy to track with.  The biggest advantage to TIR for me is I don't go to bed with my thumb throbbing from working the hat all night long like I used to.

[Boozebag]

Condor,
I also have the same problem and it gets better with time. I use the TrackIR but also use my hat & mapped "look up" button on my stick to over ride the TrackIR when the need be.  Emu talked a little about what I call "auto tracking" ex. climbing to a bandit when I should be gathering speed, and it is easier to get caught up in using the TrackIR. Just had to look at my instruments more often because my senses will lie to me. Good thread guys. Thanks.

[Lusche]

This thread shows why it would be nice if the Film Viewer would record TIR views just like any else. Just play back Condor's films, klick "use recorded views" and we could easily identify any potential problems, be it with TIR setup or if he's just looking into the wrong direction at the wrong time.

[Gianlupo]

It would be nice, Lusche, if the Film viewer recorded A LOT more things than it does now....

[The Fugitive]

Film recorder dose record a lot more, just wish we could view a lot more

[Gianlupo]

Does it really? If so, it should be patched to show all it can register. Just to name one, I'd like to see movements of the controls and of the control surfaces, even in other planes, so to be aware of what they do and if I made some unwilling input... and I'd like to have head movements from other pilots, to see what they saw during combat. (I'm aware this could be a lot more of data, but maybe this data could be recorded only in a little "bubble" of space around the player's plane, say 3k centering on that plane. It should already work this way, even if I'm not sure about it.)

[Benny Moore]

It was a full month after I bought TrackIR that I stopped regretting my purchase.  It could very well be that you haven't adjusted to it yet.

Alternately, Krusty could be right.  I learned on external views; I flew that way in other simulators for years.  After all, reality is somewhere between externals and no externals; in reality, you have many times better vision than you do in simulators.  A real pilot has the advantages of perepherial and natural, intuitive head movement (even TrackIR is an acquired skill and not at all intuitive - I won't even talk about number pad keys or joystick hats).  Using externals will, as Krusty said, make it easier on you because it allows you to see what direction your aircraft is going while looking at the enemy - something that perepherial would allow you to do in reality.  In time you will master it and move on to internals only.

Of course Trotter is also spot-on.

[Traveler]

Condor,  I'll offer one thing that no one else has offered.  Wingup.  

Now that said, as a FAA Flight Instructor I'd like to ask you a question.  If you are not keeping your eyes  on the nme.  What are you looking at when you lose him?  Are you looking inside of the cockpit to look at airspeed or altitude ?  

As an exercise , Take off, climb to 700 feet AGL go find a tree or barn and do turns around it,  while doing the turns climb to 1500 feet, without looking at your gages, once you think you are at 1500 continue to do the turns for one minute before looking. are you close to 1500ft.  now try it again while you decend to 500ft.  All without looking at the altitude indicator.  After you feel you are at 500ft, turn to a heading of North, fly for one min.  then look at the altitude indicator and compass.  are you even close to north or 500ft.

in other words, get your head out of the cockpit.

[HomeBoy]

Excellent advice Traveler!

We need a VFR hood instead of an IFR hood.     Rather than blocking out the windscreen, we need a hood that blocks the gauges.  

[DamnedRen]

Condor,

You may not believe this but how you fly your own plane allows you to dictate what you see and don't see.
The Axiom, "Lose sight, lose the fight" is very true. View may be only one part of the whole fighter pilot experience but they ae very important.

IMHO, the only time you should lose sight of the guy is if you specifically roll belly on as a part of a tactical maneuver or if you're not paying attention to your 6 and some gomer sneaks up behind you from under your belly. Don't get me wrong. It's gonna happen that you're not paying attention. However, if you lose sight on a guy that you are actively engaged with then keep working on it. You will get there. As a part of not losing sight you will see every single mistake the guy makes and most times will be able to capitolize on it. You will also be able to recognize immediately if your fight is going badly and maneuver to exit it for a reset or bug out. By the way, who ever said you have to stay in a fight that happens to be going badly?

I spend a huge amount of time with folks in the TA to help them get their views setup. Then I take it a step further by taking them up with me as an observer. This is to take the stick out of their hands and let them just sit back and use their views. You have to learn to walk before you can run.  If you've been up with me you will hear me calling the views as we engage folks and make the turns. At first, you may find it very hard to switch views at some of the speeds the views are changing.  The more you do it the easier it gets. Note: you need to be able to watch some guy scream by you in a nose on and continuosly watch him as he blows through and turns, loops, keeps on going, whatever. Anyone who has been in training with me always hears me asking questions like; "why are you rolling off the turn, did you stall?" or in the scissors; "roll, roll, come on, roll it! Get your lift vector ahead of my turn, now pull lead in on me!" If you're hearing that you can rest assured I'm watching your every single move and trying to get you to use your views as you make the turns with me. The more you can see what's happening the more you will control the fight.

I'm going to be out this weekend for an anniversary (going over to Vegas) but anytime you want to spend some more time with me, or anyone for that matter, please feel free to email me or just grab me in the TA. Everyone else does and that's why all the Trainers are there.

As far as TrackIR. TrackIr's are great for some. I had one and sold it. IMHO I felt I had to move too much for the look around the headrest, rear views but that might be old age setting in. I will probably get another one when technology catches up at a reasonable price. Like everything that makes a good system work it just hasn't arrived yet. Take your computer and this game. Yes, it play's fine with some lower end computers but it gets much enhanced with a fast cpu, fast ram, lotsa ram, a fast video card, a big monitor that has a fast refresh rate. All of these things come together to make a great gaming system. It's the same for TrackIR.

About 8-10 yeas ago Sony and some other Company's came out with video headsets. Wow! Kinda slow but there was actually a couple of 2 inch screens a half inch from your eye. Very cool. However, there was no TrackIr then. Because that technology was petty much ahead of its time it kinda fell by the wayside except for some Gov't contracts and some of those arcade 3D games. The ones on the market begin at $1K or so and go way up from therre. If and when they come out with another "good" video headset so you can use TrackIr with it, then I'll be the first one to buy it all again. Imagine putting on your goggles and having head movement not "locked" into merely staring at a stationary (think about it. you only get so much head movement) monitor in front of you. Move your head 50 degrees right and thats where your views go to. Twist around some more and your view continues to move more. Marry the two and WOW!

So you can lose view and lose advantage or continue to practice and not lose views. It's actually that simple. I have my own old saying...."There is no substitute for stick time. The more you get the more comfortable with the plane you get. There is no substitute for quality stick time. Learn it right the first time and put what you learn to good use".

Lastly, just about every single Axiom you've read about is true and there's quite a few of them. It has been proven through the blood, sweat and tears of past pilots. "Speed is Life". There is a reason they said it. Just what does speed give you? Ask a trainer. They're there to help you.

Hope this helps.

[Condor]

Thanks for the responses.  I’ve thought a lot about flying without Track IR but like, Homeboy, I don’t think it’s the problem.  I’ve tweeked it quite a bit and am using a modification of Mace’s profile.  I have experienced the “autotracking” that Emu and Boozebag describe but I think I’ve learned to suppress it.  I’ve experimented with the POV hat view system as well as TIR and, with the TIR profile I have now, I don’t think the speed of changing views is that much faster using the POV hat.  I don’t experience the degree of disorientation using TIR that some describe.  I experience some disorientation using the POV system also.  The systems are different but I don’t think one is inherently better across the board.  The hat views may be slightly faster but I find them harder to use and much less flexible.  I’ve had a lot of people tell me that the POV views are better but I think the performance of some TIR users indicates otherwise (Lusche’s scores convince me that TIR can’t be a liability. )

I think the compulsion to visually check where I’m going may be a big part of my problem.  I’ve compared ACM with driving a sports car at high speed on a winding road while looking everywhere but at the road ahead.  I agree with Lilprop (who, BTW, is the inexperienced son who consistently beats me after I have taught him all he knows.. and now he’s advising me in the forum – it’s humbling not to be superman in his eyes anymore. )that I need to look around more but I’m not as fixated on the forward view as he thinks.   I look around a lot already but when I make a maneuver it’s hard not to look ahead.  That’s the habit I need to break.  Thanks to Fugitive and Oldman for the suggestions for offline practice.   I will definitely follow them.  I won’t, however, thank Oldman for pointing out that my not being one of those “younger people” may be an issue.  He’s right, but I prefer not to dwell on that.  

I’m sure Trotter and others with similar comments have described the essential skill for success in this game.  I don’t at all discount what you say but I see it as a chicken and egg sort thing though.  It’s hard to get that innate feeling for where the bogey will be without a lot more experience than I’ve had and without having seen, one way or another, where the bogey goes.  (I hope that makes sense.)  I am learning the skill to some degree but it’s a slow process.  

Traveler, thanks for the very practical exercise. I’ll try it.  I suspect I will be completely disoriented the first few times.  I don’t really look at the instruments that much but I am not good at tracking my altitude or headings without checking the instruments.  In combat I look at he instruments very little.  I have my head “out of the cockpit” a lot but probably looking in the wrong direction.

I’ve been accused of looking for the silver bullet and been reminded that there is none.  It frustratingly true but also a good thing because if this were easy I’d probably lose interest.  Still there are always better ways to learn things than trial and error and I’m glad we have this forum to help one another.    

Thanks again for all the good suggestions.

[Damionte]

to echo some of the things a fewhave said here and putting in my own experience, you will occasionally lose sht of the otherplane for a second or two. The trick is estimatingwhere they're going to be next, base on his maneuver and your so you can use the right view to pick them up again.

The best tool I used to learn how to do this is the friendly lock feature in the training room. I'd put that on my sparing partner and get the nice green tracking arrows out in front of him. The key being that it shows you the arrows even through the graphics of your own plane. So even while looking down at my feet or into the back of my seat i had the tracer there to show me which direction the other guy was going as I went round and round with them.

Eventually I learned patterns based on the move being done. I learned that if someone were diving on me from a particular angle and I did a break turn and barrel roll, that I could usually expect them to pop out in a few pre determined places. So when they pass under my tail I already know which direction to look next to pick them up again. If I don't see them immediatly then I know they did a particular counter andlook in the next spot I expect them to be in.

[Condor]

Ren,

Thanks for the response.  I just missed it while I was typing.  I did train with you a few moths ago and I remember my amazement with how you tracked my every move.  Thenks for the offer.  You will be hearig from me.