Author Topic: A few questions about riding the edge...  (Read 1250 times)

Offline hammer

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2007, 01:25:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
If a buffet means you're actually stalling though - and if the stallhorn blasts while you're buffeting - how come you can still climb, turn, tighten, whatever while the buffeting is going on?
Only part of your wing is stalling. Enough of your wing still has lift to allow maneuvering.

I'm thinking Widewing did some tests where he got better turn radius (not sure about rate) riding the turn into the buffet rather than holding off. Can't find it in a search, though, so I may be hallucinating :rolleyes:

Regards,

Hammer
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Offline B@tfinkV

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2007, 02:10:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Ah, I see you too have run into Phu, Bat :) very fun indeed

Thanks for the replies, everyone!


cc and i posted one of the few fights i won, but purely because it was the longest and most interesting example. the ones i lost usualy lasted a much shorter time. we had a great 303 battle for the last fight.
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Offline Vudak

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2007, 02:56:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
cc and i posted one of the few fights i won, but purely because it was the longest and most interesting example. the ones i lost usualy lasted a much shorter time. we had a great 303 battle for the last fight.


Speaking of duels, Bat, we need to get back into the DA sometime soon...  I keep trying to pick fights with some of the better sticks but it appears I'm not a big enough jerk lol :(
Vudak
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Offline mtnman

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2007, 03:38:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SIK1
The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics


The stall should start closer to the root and progress outward.  Most planes (all?) are designed so that happens.  My factual knowledge regarding this is sparse, but IIRC the stall generally starts about 1/3 of the way out on the wing from the root.  I believe twin-engine prop planes have their engines mounted here at least partially due to this, in an effort to delay the onset of the stall.  I could be wrong though- maybe someone else will supply more facts.  

I'll throw a basic explanation out that can be corrected by those who know better...

I know that what you really want to avoid is a stall out at the wingtips.  Those are usually a pretty violent stall without much warning.  The type where one wing drops rapidly, rather than the nose of the plane gently dropping or buffeting.  

Those that build R/C planes may recall on the simpler rib and spar constucted wings that "washout" would be added to the wing by warping the leading edge of the wingtips down a tad to create a lower AoA near the wingtip.  This forces the stall to occur closer in to the wingroot.  More modern R/C sheeted wings are designed so that as you build them washout is added without any real input from the builder.  It's still there if you look closely though.

I have no idea whether WW2 planes had washout built in or not.  I'd be shocked if modern private planes didn't have washout, but I really don't know.

Dropping flaps would also seem to have the same effect, but to a much larger degree.  It makes the inner portion of the wing have a higher AoA than the tips, again making the tips less likely to stall first.  This is good since often when flaps are down you are low and slow where a violent wing-dropping stall would be bad.

When you use aileron you increase the angle of attack at the wingtip for one wing, while lowering it for the other.  The tip with the elevated AoA is the one you are trying to make go upward (left wing for a right roll).  This actually makes that wingtip more prone to a stall, which would cause your left wing to drop while applying more right aileron, which is bad.  You'd likely correct instinctively with full right aileron to counter, and that would be very bad.

At high enough airspeed this isn't as apparent as at low speed, especially near stall.

Before that stall occurs you do see signs of "adverse yaw effect" which is caused by the lowered aileron creating more drag than the raised aileron.  This gives you a left yaw for an application of right aileron.  The left aileron creating more drag will cause the left wing to slow down and drop, while the right wing speeds up and raises.  If allowed to continue this will eventually result in the left wing stalling and initiate a spin.

Of course you should be countering this adverse yaw effect by applying right rudder with right aileron, and left rudder with left aileron (coordinated turn).  This helps to keep the higher drag wing at a higher airspeed to avoid those bad consequences.

MtnMan
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Offline Widewing

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2007, 05:41:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hammer
Only part of your wing is stalling. Enough of your wing still has lift to allow maneuvering.

I'm thinking Widewing did some tests where he got better turn radius (not sure about rate) riding the turn into the buffet rather than holding off. Can't find it in a search, though, so I may be hallucinating :rolleyes:

Regards,

Hammer


You remembered correctly. You get the best turn radius well into stall buffet. However, if you fly too deep into the buffet, your radius will increase due the plane washing out (dip a wing, recover, dip it again, recover, etc).

Finding that "happy" spot takes practice, and it differs in every aircraft.

My regards,

Widewing
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Offline TequilaChaser

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2007, 06:02:44 PM »
just don't confuse the two
 turn radius  &  turn rate


and if you want to find Widewing's testing method and posted results, he posted them in the following thread link

Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177723
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline CAP1

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2007, 11:14:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
heres a film i found that definitely shows a duel 'on the edge'

http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/PhuMnChu.ahf

i got beat more than not vs this guy, he was a very good stick. i thought this might help because, had i not squelched my stall horn, it would have been going off more than 75% of the fight.

great fun.

i rekon, riding the edge to its true potential is going to win a fight for you over E management, in these turn n burn style planes.  but, and here is the kicker, we are both flying very smooth and gentle between the moments of riding the edge. so i think the key is timing, and to do a bit of both methods where applicable.

S!


VERY nice flying..both of ya......i can't fly that slow..yet.........i'd bet that had your heart pumping though....

<>

john
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Offline CAP1

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2007, 11:26:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hazard69
The stall horn indicates that you are approaching stall, the buffeting indicates that you have stalled. A lot of players associate the word stall with "dropping out of the sky". Thats usually due to a spin, where one wing has stalled and the other hasn't. Maneuvering during a stall is usually what causes the spin.

Also note that stalling has NOTHING to do with airspeed. A lot of pilots believe that it does cause they have to deal with Vs (stalling SPEED). But the stall actually occurs due to a high Angle Of Attack (which u usually generate whilst flying at low speeds, hence the stalling speed limit). But a stall can happen at any speed when you exceed the angle of attack (usually over 16 degrees). Also note that angle of attack is not your aircraft's pitch angle.

1)i'll add a bit here? angle of attack is your wing's relative angle to the oncomming wind. the oncomming wind is produced by your airplane's foward speed. in level flight, most aircraft are generally at about 8 to 10 degrees(i think). most will stall at about 17 degrees. this happens because at that angle, the air cannot flow smoothly accross the top of the wing, thus loosing lift. if you're flying full throttle, at say....300mph for instance......pull up gently into a loop, you're keeping the wing within the CRITICAL angle of attack. now do the same thing, and "jerk" the stick back. you'll notice the buzzer, buffeting,(which is NOT the actual stall, but another warning that the stall is immenint) and most likely, she'll drop a wing on ya. this is because you've now moved the wing above the critical AOA. once the nose drops, the wing comes into the envelope again, and is once again producing lift.
 it should also be noted that the airplane does NOT know which way is up, so if you're rolled 90 degrees into a turn, then to the plane sideways is up, and the lift is being produced that way....if you pul too hard in the turn......same thing as pulling up too hard.
my apologies for the long expanation...just trying to help when/where i can

Now in your situation, when you hear the buzzer, its the aircraft's way of warning you that you are APPROACHING stall. When the stall actually commences airflow over the wing separates resulting in a loss of lift. The turbulence this causes, is whats felt as buffet. Since its the lift generated by the wings that's turning you, when the buffet starts, you lost some lift and so will turn slower. When you ease off on the stick, you reduce the AoA and allow the airflow to re-attach, improving your wings lifting capacity and hence you turn rate.

CLEAR?:huh :D :D
ingame 1LTCAP
80th FS "Headhunters"
S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline CAP1

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2007, 11:29:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
If a buffet means you're actually stalling though - and if the stallhorn blasts while you're buffeting - how come you can still climb, turn, tighten, whatever while the buffeting is going on?


the buffeting is an imminent stall. the buzzer will sound as long as there's negative air pressure on the inlet port in the wing. so although you're buffeting, you're still kinda flying.......but one wrong input'll drop ya right into that stall...........
ingame 1LTCAP
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Offline CAP1

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2007, 11:34:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SIK1
The whole wing doesn't stall at once, it is progresive. I just can't remember if it's from tip to root or root to tip. The buffet is the turbulant air moving over the wing, and turbulant air is bad for aerodynamics.


i believe it stalls from inner to outter wing......as it would seem that stall fences installed on tops of some wings seem to be in an attempt to keep the seperated air from spreading to the outter wing(where your aielrons are)

now, i'm gonna add a question to this........in...say for instance a cessna....you perform a stall, but the right wing drops.....proper recovery is relax elevator, neutral aieleron, rudder opposite the dropped wing, firewall throttle, carb heat to cold.......the plane is flying again very quickly. reason for neutreal aileron, is because the drag created by the aileron rising on the stalled wing will drag you farther into the stall and ensueing spin,,,,,,so...is that modeled into our cartoon fighters?
ingame 1LTCAP
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S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning in a Bottle)

Offline Hazard69

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2007, 11:09:58 AM »
The way the stall progresses depends upon wing shapes. All wings usually generate some turbulence at the root due to interference in airflows over the wing and fuselage. These become prominent on approach to stall. Also all wings have tip vortexes which usually result in reducing AoA at the tips and thus help to delay tip stall (at the expense of more drag).

A rectangular wing (like on a training C-152) has the greatest AoA at the root and usually tends to stall root first. This is the best way to stall cause you only loose lift and as the nose goes down, the AoA reduces and the wing almost "recovers itself"

An elliptical wing has the same AoA across it and so usually its stalls all at once. Once stalled a elliptical wing needs some diving action to recover; However with an elliptical wing the aircraft can usually attain a higher pitch angle without reaching a stalling AoA.

The tapered wing however has increasing  AoA progressively until about 2/3 of the span out after which it reduces down to the tip. This wing has greater spinning tendencies, since the stall originates so far out along the span. However many high performance use this type of wing since it offers the best efficiency (highest L/D ratio).

Clearer?:huh :D :D
<S> Hazardus

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Offline Skeld

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2007, 03:40:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
just don't confuse the two
 turn radius  &  turn rate


and if you want to find Widewing's testing method and posted results, he posted them in the following thread link

Mosq's Sustained Turn List v 2.07
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=177723


I tried to d/l this and get an error message. Can someone help me out here and send it to me please? PM me for my email?

Thanks

Offline TequilaChaser

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2007, 07:21:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Skeld
I tried to d/l this and get an error message. Can someone help me out here and send it to me please? PM me for my email?

Thanks



it is nothing to download.  it is a link to a thread on these here messageboards.....
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline B@tfinkV

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2007, 11:25:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vudak
Speaking of duels, Bat, we need to get back into the DA sometime soon...  I keep trying to pick fights with some of the better sticks but it appears I'm not a big enough jerk lol :(



great fun duels the other night man. won some lost some and i definitely rammed someone more than once through the night :)

S! to vudak, maha, phumnchu, dedalos and anyone else i forgetting about.
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Offline Skeld

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A few questions about riding the edge...
« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2007, 12:38:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
it is nothing to download.  it is a link to a thread on these here messageboards.....


Ummm...... ya.

His posted results in that thread are a link to a .pdf file that gives me an error message when I attempt to d/l it...I was just seeing if anyone had that .pdf handy and would send it to me...

I guess I should just bump that post and ask for it there huh?