Author Topic: A few issues with Bombers. (Read 778 times)

Urchin · « **on:** July 16, 2001, 09:53:00 PM »

I got shot down by a lanc earlier this evening... something that surprised me. I don't die to often to buffs, and this is the first time a Lanc has shotme down this tour. However, I also fly the B17 on occasion, so I don't think of myself as benig to biased.

My issue with the Lancaster is this - the .50s in the tail have a greater than 180 degree traverse. Was this the case on historical Lancs? My most common way to attack buffs is to come in from their 9 to 3, or 3 to 9, thus avoiding the tail guns- and making myself a more diffucult target. The B17 is fairly vulnerable to an approach such as this, and I generally have some small amount of success with it. It generally works with Lancs to, which is why I was surprised when he shot me down- perhaps all the Lancs have been shooting their tail turrets at me and I never noticed it before, but I certainly noticed this.

Actually, I didn't explain it quite right, my approach I mean. I actually try to intercept the Buff where I'll be at his 9 or 3, when I am firing my guns. To me, it appears that I start out in front of the bomber, and "slide" down as we approach the same place. How is it possible that the Lancs tail gun can hit something that is not even beside it- but is ahead of it flying perpendicular to its course? I can understand that the tail guns will get a shot at me as I pass OVER or UNDER the buff and he continues on his path, but before the merge?

Anyways, another beef I have is with the B17- Many of the guns can actually fire THROUGH the plane. An example of this is the ball turret- which can fire at enemies that are probably 10 to 15 degrees above the nose or tail of the plane- this isnt even physically possible as far as I know- please fix it. The top turret can fire through the vertical stab (the tail?), the left and right waist gunners can fire through both the elevators and the wing- all of which is actually possible- but I doubt if any REAL gunner would ever shoot through his own plane to try to shoot down an enemy (I could be wrong here I suppose). As I have said- I fly the B17 when I am going buffing, and with some small success (I usually kill 2 or 3 enemy fighters a sortie)- so this is not a one sided "please Nerf Buffs" thing. I'd really like to see this fixed.

On a totally unrelated note- I personally don't have a problem with the "power" of buff guns. Even with more powerful .50s than come on the fighters, you still have to lay a pretty good burst on an enemy to knock him down. And the easiest way to kill someone is of course when they come straight up your 6 from d2.0 away.. I normally start shooting at 1k or so and they either fly straight and die or break off.

As always, I welcome replies.

Hangtime · « **Reply #1 on:** July 16, 2001, 10:29:00 PM »

Issit possible your seeing fire from that top ball? And I thought the tail gun was 303's.. or issit the ball that got 303's.. I ferget.

I've always felt the lanc's guns were pitiful compared to a b26's or b17's.. only in a goon would the pilot be more nekkid to the abuses of a determined fighter with a big sack of bullits.

The traverse stuff seems kinda odd. Never noticed it before. Aside from being able to shoot right thru my own vertical stab, the buff turbo-lasers seem 'normal; AH, playability checked'. I'll look for it; next time I'm screaming hystericly at the fighter that's sucked up all my tail ammo and is commin in fer the kill.

<S!>

Nash · « **Reply #2 on:** July 16, 2001, 10:55:00 PM »

Let me guess... Next week yer going to have a few issues with... hmmm... the ostys?

Urchin · « **Reply #3 on:** July 16, 2001, 11:12:00 PM »

Hhe Nash.. I avoid Osties like the PLAGUE. If osties need killing, I up a b17 with 500's or 250's (depending on what else I'm going to do)- and kill em the right way, from 10k. I'm not brave enough to attack an ostie with a fighter, unless I'm trying to protect a goon or M3.

So, no.. no issues with osties I don't think ;-)

Urchin · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2001, 11:15:00 PM »

Oh, and hangtime- the 2 .50s in a Lanc are in the tail. The Top and Noseturrets have 2 .303s apiece... those basically amount to spitballs. The Lanc that got me got my engine and both my wings- if .303s did that then the 190 REALLY needs to have its damage model looked at.

Hangtime · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2001, 11:23:00 PM »

I rest my case.

deSelys · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2001, 11:37:00 PM »

Hello Urchin,

one possible explanation is that you or the lanc gunner experienced some lag allowing him to shoot you at a place where you weren't anymore. I was online at the same time as you and I think I shot down the same Lanc you're talking about a couple of minutes later. If it's him, packet loss seems a valid explanation because I hit him with at least 10 30mm shells and he flew away almost unharmed (smoke from one engine).
Then I came back and took his wing away with a short 13mm burst...

I experienced it again a bit later, while 'chased' by a Ki61 at d1.5 and accelerating away from him, I heard some bullets pinging me. I then noticed that my beacon was on during a couple of seconds...

But I'll keep my eyes open and see if I encounter what you're describing.

de Selys

Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels

Urchin · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2001, 01:27:00 AM »

Lol hangtime ;-) I think probably Desyles explanation is probably what happened, to be honest. I dunno tho, I was messing around with the Lanc in offline mode, and the nose and tail gunners can actually fire at the same target if the target is beside the lanc. Seems odd to me, maybe that was how the turrets were IRL tho.

Pepe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2001, 01:44:00 AM »

I agree with both Urchin and Hangtime...

I think Lancasters are an relatively easy prey, as I think they should be, when flying unescorted at alts under 25k. Still, the buff model badly needs a revision, in my opinion.

AH claims to have the most accurate FM/DM in the market. While I aggree with the statement, I don't have a solid supporting ground when it comes to buffs. Too many gameplay concessions here.

Besides the community (which is, in my book, the most valuable asset) I like AH because of its FM, its learning curve, its general absence of A.I., its lack of excuses when you get shot down...at the very end, I like AH because it provides me with the tools to learn each and every day to "fly" a little better, to overcome my lack of skills by training and effort. Then there are another tools to vent frustration (call it navy guns, shore batteries, tanks, etc.) I find buffs failing in both rooms. Neither they are a tool to learn anything, nor serve to ease the pain of being constantly shot down by superior pilots.

Cheers,

Pepe

[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: Pepe ]

Seeker · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2001, 03:07:00 AM »

Why attack a Lanc from anywhere except it's belly?

I do find it strange that so many people think too much about armour values and gun calibres; while I do agree 100% about the B-17's strange gunnery angles.

The fact is, if you're getting shot, then a) You're doing it wrong, some where, and b) Persist and you'll die.

I've had people merrily close on my Ju88 and sit in my sights "cos the Ju88's got no guns", and they're shocked to hell to die.

Fact is, given time and ammo, a BB gun will kill you- Fact is, given time and ammo, so will a .303

The fundemantal point is you're getting hit.

StSanta · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2001, 04:02:00 AM »

Seeker, the belly attack, while effective, is also a tad bit dangerous.

If there are enemy fighters around, you'll slow down and be at their mercy.

if you fail to shoot the Lanc down, he'll have a good chance at getting a clear shot at you and we all know what a single ping does to a 190 engine

.

I use belly attacks despite of this - when i do not have the alt. If I have the alt, I approach from 10 or 2 o clock hi full speed and open up at d300. One or two passes usually does the trick.

Seeker · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2001, 04:44:00 AM »

Makes sense, Santa.

Mind you, I'm usualy down low turning and burning when I spot a Lanc coming in to waste the FH's, so for me a carefull climb into his belly, but all the while staying in front of his tail turret is the usual M.O.; although I grant you it's dodgy against a Yank buff.

If I've got any alt, I usualy dive on his front quarter aiming for the cockpit, reverse as I blow by and come up for the belly again.

For me, the hardest buff is the B26. If the pilot's aware I'm there, they're lethal.

Karnak · « **Reply #12 on:** July 17, 2001, 01:38:00 PM »

As I understand it, the nose turret on the Lanc should be able to traverse past the 90 degree mark.

One problem is that the tail turret can fire past the 90 degree mark in the verticle when the gunner is in the nose turret but, oddly, not if the gunner is in the tail or top turret. It should not be able to do that.

The problem, from the Lanc's tail gunner's perspective, that I have seen with belly attacks is that A) people come up too early and fly right up the twin .50s and B) people don't appriciate how far down the Lanc's tail guns will go. Point A may be exacerbated by internet lag, I don't know.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #13 on:** July 17, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »

The Lanc isn't even vulnerable under the belly if the Lanc pilot knows what he's doing, I'll use my rudder pedelas to turn the lanc (thus giving me a better shot at someone below) while manning the tail gun. Some guys don't understand how they got shot down, but you can train your guns on a belly target pretty easily..

Midnight · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2001, 12:03:00 AM »

I saw the same thing the other day in the B-26.

I was flying and pugg666 was gunning for me. We had a plane on our low 6, and I was watching from an external view while pugg shot at him.

What I saw was ALL the guns pointing to the low 6 (Including the nose and top turret guns) What I am not certain of is if all guns actually fired when pugg was shooting.

Some more testing may be needed to find the answer. I can tell you that when you are in a gunner position firing all available guns, it seems the ammo counts are only effected by guns that can "see" the target normally. Still would be interesting to know exactly what is happening though.